Great House use of WMD's during the Jihad

[MarauderD]

Well, I broke down and started reading the jihad source material. After reading FM:3085, I got curious. I started with the end, naturally, and read J:FR. This morning I just finished J:BA, which took me from the beginning through 3070.
 
Now of course I'm not surprised by WoB forces using TacNucs, StratNucs, or chemical weapons. Biological weapons use on Galedon, Alarion, and Galax are bothersome to me, but I suppose understandable. WoB is punishing the Successor States (LA and FS in particular for disbanding the Star League) by destroying infrastructure, especially warship/dropship yards and mech construction facilities. Because WoB doesn't ever intend to occupy the whole of the inner sphere, outright destruction by nukes or otherwise makes sense.
 
What doesn't make sense to me is the Inner Sphere states using nukes on each other. For example: we went through the whole 4th Succession War and the War of 3039 without anyone using WMDs.  Why?  Because the object of these wars is expanding your borders, and taking valuable planets and their resources.  Tikonov, Marduk, Nanking--you don't destroy the factory, you capture it and produce your own mechs from it. Destroying any factory means you are killing the goose laying the golden eggs. Even after the FedSuns loses Tikonov to the CCAF in the FedCom civil war, they don't just destroy the factory, they blockade it so they can get some of the production there.
 
So when the CCAF invades the Capellan March to teach Hasek a lesson, why all the destruction?  Wouldn't it be better to capture all the spare parts and mechs waiting for delivery, force any workers on planet to work until they drop, and take all your Templars, Marauders, etc etc back to the CC as your own spoils? Instead, we have the CC nuking plants from orbit at Talon and completely destroying the mechworks and damaging the shipworks at Kathil.  Why wouldn't they think to capture the Melissa Davion before the Wobblies did?  Why wouldn't they just occupy GM while it turns out parts and mechs for them?
 
So long story short, I get the Blakists being crazy and killing indiscriminately, but even for peoples that hate each other (Lyran/FWL or Capellan/FedSuns) we haven't seen use of nukes since the 3rd Succession War, maybe even the 2nd, so why start now?


 
Any thoughts?

[verybad]

You can blame probably most of the WMD parties on the general breakdown of communication. The CC was running under the impression that the FedSuns (Cap March in particular) had run a head hunter attempt against Sun Tzu, one of the most beloved leaders of the Cap Con in...a very long time.

A lack of communications leads to fear.

In addition, a WMD means a different thing in interstellar warfare than it does today on our lonely single planet. It's no longer mutually assured destruction (MAD), but simply a more efficient way of enforcing your will upon an enemy. While their is still a taint associated with the use of Nukes and Biological weapons, if it can win a war against an enemy you persieve as evil (even if they see you the same way) it's quite easy to make personal and force based moral/ethical excuses can be devised.

The United States Nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII with Japan. Both of those cities were filled primarilly with civilians. The estimates on allied deaths in order to invade and occupy Japan with conventional forces was over 250,000 allied deaths. Japanese would have probably been higher.

The forces in the Jihad were often stretched to the breaking point, they lacked the ability to communicate on things such as logistics or large operations with any degree of efficiency. Occupying enemy planets is not a simple operation, and with your offensive (Mech/Aerospace) forcs so stretched, survival might mean destroying the enemies ability to make war.

I think Jihad (and Wars of Reaving) was the most realistic, least BSed wars that we've been presented with in Battletech.

Warfare is horrible, these finally showed us how terrible it is when one group of men tries to use force to enforce their will on another. Rather than the knights in golden armor, one side is good the other is bad, these showed the suffereng.

The First Succession War was reportedly an order of magnitude worse  O0

[Maelwys]

Its because the Inner Sphere has been creeping towards a Jihad like war for a long time, the WoB just got them there quicker (and probably prevented a more destructive one later on).

The Houses didn't stop using nukes because of some altruistic reason. They stopped using them because they were destroying technology that the Houses couldn't replace.

That isn't as much of a concern in say, post 3060. The Capellans can afford to destroy factories in the FedSuns because they don't desperately need to capture them like they did during the Succession Wars. The Capellans can drop a nuke on Talon because they've got the technical know-how to build their own new factory. The technology no longer represents a resource that they must capture in order to continue to fight.

And just as an aside, the WoB wasn't responsible for the Galedon Curse.

[Stormfury]

Considering the Curse of Galedon first showed up when mysterious "ComStar" forces were in the area and similar weapons were later used to devastate Alarion and Kathil, protestations of the Word's innocence ring pretty hollow.

[GhostBear]

Considering the Curse of Galedon first showed up when mysterious "ComStar" forces were in the area and similar weapons were later used to devastate Alarion and Kathil, protestations of the Word's innocence ring pretty hollow.

Wha..?

I think you need to re-read the events around Galedon.

[Stormfury]

I just checked the earliest mentions I could find of combat on Galedon, and can't find it. I could have sworn there was a world where the Combine and Suns were engaged in battle and a ComStar unit arrived, quarantined an area, and was believed to be excavating some facility. Maybe I'm getting my wires crossed with a FCCW event, as I thought the reference was in FM: U. Apparently not.

[Desert Raider]

Considering the Curse of Galedon first showed up when mysterious "ComStar" forces were in the area and similar weapons were later used to devastate Alarion and Kathil, protestations of the Word's innocence ring pretty hollow.

Ummm....actually No. The "Curse" was apparently an ancient Kuritan bioweapon, that was accidently released from the bunkers in which it had been buried , by a particularly violent skirmish between the Kuritan defenders and Davion/Draconis March raiders on planet. Purely collateral damage... but with devastating and tragic consequences.
As for WMD use by the other Houses, there actually wasn't really that much use. The Taurians trotted them out at the behest of there allies, the Word, but  also because they'd always been part of their tactical doctrine. The Cappellans only used theirs on the Word, and the Regulans...well..that was mostly at the behest of the late Kirc Cameron-Jones, although Titus went a little Nuke happy going after the Domini...having your wife and unborn child literally butchered by a Domini Infiltrator (Naamah) tends to have that effect on people.
The Lyran apparently didn't use WMDs ,as far as I can tell, the Davions only in fairly rare circumstances against the Taurians, and the Mariks in surprisingly few instances, considering the influence of the Word.
Kuritan WMD use was sparse for the most part, except for when they sterilized Galedon V to try to detroy "The Curse". And the Clans, other than occasional Orbital Fire Support from WarShips, simply don't use them.Period.

[Desert Raider]

I just checked the earliest mentions I could find of combat on Galedon, and can't find it. I could have sworn there was a world where the Combine and Suns were engaged in battle and a ComStar unit arrived, quarantined an area, and was believed to be excavating some facility. Maybe I'm getting my wires crossed with a FCCW event, as I thought the reference was in FM: U. Apparently not.

Jihad Hot Spots:3070. Don't have it in front of me,so I can't quote the page number, but its definitely  that book. A confidential report from ISF Director Shakir Jerrar to Kanrei Minamoto and Coordinator Hohiro Kurita.

[Stormfury]

Jihad Hot Spots:3070. Don't have it in front of me,so I can't quote the page number, but its definitely  that book. A confidential report from ISF Director Shakir Jerrar to Kanrei Minamoto and Coordinator Hohiro Kurita.

Yep. I think I'm conflating something that happened as the FedCom Civil War wound down with Galedon. I'll keep digging, but it wasn't at Galedon.

Not like the Word not being responsible for that one incident is enough to rehabilitate them though, and they did (incorrectly) cop the blame for the Curse in JHS: 3070 a little later on.

[Bosefius]

Jihad Hot Spots:3070. Don't have it in front of me,so I can't quote the page number, but its definitely  that book. A confidential report from ISF Director Shakir Jerrar to Kanrei Minamoto and Coordinator Hohiro Kurita.

Jihad Hot Spots: 3070, Page 4 (Fiction) "Shrouded Blade" "...I Don't care about Combine Bioweapons on Galedon..."

Page 48: "Specifically, the Cabra Dulce Memorial Site.
The location of Bunker SX-RT3.
Chu-sa Huchinag reported that he was “concerned about the
momentum of the offensive, because the DCMS is down two whole
companies of troops from a mysterious, fast-spreading flu outbreak.”
Kanrei, Lord Kurita. I fear that the fighting with the Davions has
unleashed a far deadlier curse"

I apologize if the direct quote is not acceptable, sorry I can change if needed.

[MarauderD]

Ummm....actually No. The "Curse" was apparently an ancient Kuruita bioweapon, that was accidently released from the bunkers in which it had been buried , by a particularly violent skirmish between the Kuritan defenders and Davion/Draconis March raiders on planet. Purely collateral damage... but with devastating and tragic consequences.
As for WMD use by the other Houses, there actually wasn't really that much use. The Taurians trotted them out at the behest of there allies, the Word, but  also because they'd always been part of their tactical doctrine. The Cappellans only used theirs on the Word, and the Regulans...well..that was mostly at the behest of the late Kirc Cameron-Jones, although Titus went a little Nuke happy going after the Domini...having your wife and unborn child literally butchered by a Domini Infiltrator (Naamah) tends to have that effect on people.
The Lyran apparently didn't use WMDs ,as far as I can tell, the Davions only in fairly rare circumstances against the Taurians, and the Mariks in surprisingly few instances, considering the influence of the Word.
Kuritan WMD use was sparse for the most part, except for when they sterilized Galedon V to try to detroy "The Curse". And the Clans, other than occasional Orbital Fire Support from WarShips, simply don't use them.Period.

The Cappellans only used theirs on the Word I was actually thinking specifically of the Capellans--maybe we need MadCapellan to verify this as the verifier of all CC facts, but I'm pretty sure the near annihilation of an entire Avalon Hussars RCT and the destruction of the Talon mech plant was with several nuclear warheads.

[Archangel]

The CC was running under the impression that the FedSuns (Cap March in particular) had run a head hunter attempt against Sun Tzu, one of the most beloved leaders of the Cap Con in...a very long time.

Hey now! What do you mean?  Romano Liao was our beloved leader! Isn't that right, Jiang-jun Vladimir Korskav? >:/!

[MadCapellan]

I want to say that the destruction of Talon was perpetrated by the Word of Blake in the guise of the Capellan's "allies",
The destruction of Talon was performed by the Blackwind Lancers while independent of the CCAF, but Warrior House Dai Da Chi did use a nuclear weapon to destroy the Kathil Shipyards. 

Considering that an attack on a spaceborne military target with a nuclear weapon wasn't even a violation of the Ares Conventions, and the attack perpetrated against Sian's capital city by forces at the time thought to be loyal to Duke Hasek most certainly was, I'd actually call the Capellan response restrained. 

[Desert Raider]

I want to say that the destruction of Talon was perpetrated by the Word of Blake in the guise of the Capellan's "allies", but Warrior House Dai Da Chi did use a nuclear weapon to destroy the Kathil Shipyards. 

And one thing we've discovered is that the Word in general, and most especially their Shadow Divisions,  were particularly adept at "false flag" operations, as events would later demonstrate.

[MarauderD]

The more I think about it, MadCap may be right. On Kathil the CC directly engaged ground forces and then took out the mech production facility with conventional weapons. Why would they go about Talon any differently?

Reminds me of the discussion over on the Periphery thread: sure the FS could have been behind the asteroid bombing of Taurus, WoB is tricksy and false, and had the most to gain....

[Cavalier]

House Fujita also used nuclear weapons against the Fifth Lyran Guards on Nanking in 3078. That was after the Coalition troops saved the Capellans from being overrun by the Nanking Protectorate Militia due to their own stupid fanaticism. The Coalition withdrew rather than press the issue.

Talon was bit by the Blackwind Lancers, who were not under CCAF control at the time IIRC. Colonel Doles went a little crazy after picking up a man-crush on Sun Tzu, is all I can figure.

On the Coalition side, Kanrei Minamoto used nuclear weapons to break the Cairo Castle Brian that served as ROM Headquarters. That is pretty much the only reference to any force even nominally under Devlin Stone's command using WMDs.

[Neufeld]

The more I think about it, MadCap may be right. On Kathil the CC directly engaged ground forces and then took out the mech production facility with conventional weapons. Why would they go about Talon any differently?

In my opinion the fact that it was the Blackwind Lancers that supposedly did the nuking that makes it very suspect. I mean who in their right mind would hand over nukes to that unit? I can neither see the FedSuns or Capellans being able to thrust that unit with nukes, it is after all a Free Capella unit.

Now if the Word handed over the nukes to the Lancers or did masquerade as the Lancers is something that is more debatable.

[MadCapellan]

In my opinion the fact that it was the Blackwind Lancers that supposedly did the nuking that makes it very suspect. I mean who in their right mind would hand over nukes to that unit? I can neither see the FedSuns or Capellans being able to thrust that unit with nukes, it is after all a Free Capella unit.

Now if the Word handed over the nukes to the Lancers or did masquerade as the Lancers is something that is more debatable.

Gods, how'd I forget the Blackwind Lancers!?  (probably on purpose!  Ha!)  Yes, the Blackwind Lancers were the ones who nuked Talon, and for extra bonus spite: they did it with nukes they pilfered from Capellan March armories, which was one of the reasons they got kicked out by the Haseks in the first place.

[Dayton3]

The Capellans it seems have always been more prone to use WMDs.   Look at the Chancellor's orders to the CCAF at the beginning of the First Succession War.     And the Chancellor in question IIRC was not even known for being that bloodthirsty a leader by Capellan standards.

Basically, due to their small size the Capellans have always been a star nation where national destruction is always a possibility and one that had no real hope of one day dominating or taking control of the Inner Sphere.

[Lore]

The Capellans it seems have always been more prone to use WMDs.   Look at the Chancellor's orders to the CCAF at the beginning of the First Succession War.     And the Chancellor in question IIRC was not even known for being that bloodthirsty a leader by Capellan standards.

It could be argued that with the existence of the Bell Accords and the fact that Article I of the Ares Conventions deals exclusively with nuclear weapon usage among all Inner Sphere parties, the over-utilisation of WMDs wasn't wholly a Confederation phenomenon.

[PsihoKekec]

One of the Arcturan Guards regiments in Coalition nuked a Protectorate Militia base on a Drac world. CC is mentioned of using WMD against the world quite liberally during the second half of Jihad. Dark Age material mentions that approximately half of all WMD attacks on the Capellan soil were by House troops.

[Dayton3]

The Capellans were also the only force to use WMDs (nerve gas) in the Fourth Succession War.