Infantry Support 'Mechs

[ravensword]

I know the Sentinel and Hoplite were used by the SLDF as support for infantry formations.  Are there other 'Mechs that are or were used for infantry support?

[Daryk]

I think the Vulcan qualifies...

[RoundTop]

Firestarter.

[Vandervecken]

I think I'd like some clarification about what "supporting" Infantry means.
I know the Firestarter is very good at killing infantry, for sure, but is that the same as supporting them?
What are the tasks that we expect Infantry to do on the battlefield for which having a Mech tagging along specially equipped would be helpful?

[Daryk]

That's why I went with the Vulcan... it can do a little bit of everything.

[Scotty]

The Gun is an excellent Infantry Support 'Mech, especially if you use its Omni capability to do things like put in Field Kitchens and MASH units.

Other than that, anything 4/6 or slower (to not outrun the infantry) that mounts significant MRMs or big autocannons.  MRMs are BattleTech's equivalent to engineer vehicles, because they do stupid amounts of damage to buildings and fortifications (supporting the infantry's advance).  Big autocannons to keep heavy 'Mechs honest and contribute to anti-fortification work again.  Also useful are anti-infantry weapons in some capacity.

A quick search through Megamek yields the following that I'd consider as excellent or serviceable infantry support 'Mechs.  Remember that the primary goal of an infantry support vehicles was not to engage enemy armor on even terms.

Gun Omni
Urbanmech UM-R68
Hunchback HBK-4G
Catapult CPLT-K5
Shen Yi SHY-3B
Thanatos TNS-4T
Crusader CRD-5K (probably my favorite overall, right here)
Highlander HGN-734
King Crab KGC-005
Black Watch BKW-7R
Akuma AKU-1XJ
Templar TLR1-OH config in particular
Fafnir FNR-6U

You see a lot of Assault 'Mechs on this list even though they're almost never used in this fashion.  The primary goal using 'Mechs as infantry support is to take and hold territory, not batter the opponent senseless.

[Weirdo]

Big guns also help the formation threaten(or at least earn respect from) armored units, and do so at ranges many infantry cannot engage at.

I will second the notion of large MRM racks as engineering tools. A 30- or 40-pack can reduce buildings and woods, clear mines, even dig thirty-meter-wide foxholes if you're willing to dump roughly a ton of ammo into the job. And because all these roles involve shooting at immobile targets like slabs of concrete, plants, and planets, their to-hit penalties and odd range brackets are largely meaningless.

If you need to support an infantry operation outside of cities, you need a gun that can keep armored units honest(or at least distracted enough that they aren't slaughtering your troops on approach), and LRM racks that can lay smoke to provide cover. There's a reason I like the Hoplite.

[Scotty]

If anyone is curious as to why engineering vehicles in a city fight are such a boon as infantry support, it's because infantry in a city are nigh invulnerable to even high-power weapons if they're in a building.  Unless the building comes down, in which case they're instantly destroyed.

Pumping an MRM-40 or a UAC/20 on double is a great way to convince an infantry unit that where they are is not a safe place to be - if you don't bring down the building entirely and bury them in rubble.

[Weirdo]

Yup. Infantry in cities have two states - "I am eenweenceeble!" and splortched. The big thing is that, properly dug in, it usually takes multiple turns(sometimes several) to change a platoon from the former state to the latter, more time than many players are willing to accept, especially if there's many such platoons on the map, and armored units that also need to be engaged.

[Fallen_Raven]

The Corvis is a 'mech that was pretty much the epitome of infantry support. The Ultra 10 provides enough firepower to harm even low end heavies, and the pulse lasers make it risky to rush your infantry with a typical anti-infantry 'mech like the Firestarter. The movement is fast enough to respond to threats, while being slow enough that you won't be lured out of position with a little care. The hefty ammo supply and 10 double heatsinks make it possible to sustain fire for a considerable time, not to mention being resistant to the incendiary attacks that are often aimed at infantry. Its all around a great 'mech to have backing up a company or so of foot troops.

[Sartris]

Pesky city fighting bogging down your infantry? I recommend the Pillager Anvil. Sometimes collateral damage is your primary weapon

[SteelRaven]

Most light mechs do the job quite well, possible why the Bug mechs have been around for so long.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I guess a big question is, what is the definition of an Infantry Support 'mech?  I'd say something that keeps speed with the infantry but can respond to a threat on the board.  Infantry damage does a hell of a lot to other infantry, and is great for critseeking against opponents, but isn't any good for holepunching.  Infantry ranges tend to be pretty short, as well, outside of rare specially-made custom platoons.  Their mobility is slow, but they can enter pretty much any hex and don't have facing unless they're carrying field guns.

Speed: 4/6 is about all you need, maybe 5/8 for the faster BA or mech/motor units.  3/5 might be enough for a foot infantry unit, though jump jets would be good in that regard.
Armor: Lots of armor is good.  What's threatening your infantry can come in a lot of packages, though again outside of a few specialists the biggest threat to infantry is other infantry.  A Bug mech supporting a platoon or two is going to find itself in trouble against a single tank, even if that tank doesn't have any anti-infantry capability.
Mobility: Infantry can get through obstacles like buildings much easier than 'Mechs, so something on the 'demolition gun' side of things to clear paths can help.  Jump jets, also, will let you keep up with your troops if they suddenly have to scuttle two streets over.
Range: Here's a tough spot.  Most infantry platoons don't outrange the vehicle anti-infantry weapons used on them.  Take your standard rifle platoon, your maximum range is 3 hexes just like the classic MG and flamer.  Any attempt to get into range on a target means you're facing the guns.  Any attempt to eliminate your infantry, though, means the enemy has to get close as well.  This invites a lot of short-range fire from larger weapons, since most threats to your infantry will be nearby.  Long range guns might not be as necessary on such a support unit, if it can get close.
Special abilities: Most infantry can't start fires or use smoke.  Something with an SRM barrage can provide this support; being able to stick a column of smoke between your troops and a Piranha that just showed up can mean the difference.

So we're left with a moderate speed, high armor, very large damage weapon carrier.  Obviously you're going to want some anti-infantry capability yourself, with decent range, as well as those special munitions missiles bring.  SRM-6s make great smoke clouds, and LRMs bring minelaying options to assist dug-in infantry in area denial against mobile threats.  Mech Mortars are useful as well.  A heavy gun like an AC20 of any flavor to punch holes in armor to let the infantry close and exploit is on the table, though a RAC/5 or HAG30 does a fair job in critseeking and holepunching.

I guess more or less anything that's a big-gun, mid-speed heavy or assault with a good mix of weapons but a focus on holepunching.  Gauss, cERPPC, whatever/20 autocannon, and a mixed spread of secondaries for utility in its support mission.

To be fair, this starts to feel more like it's the infantry supporting the 'Mech, bringing some extra critseeking power and a small denial bubble.

[MadCapellan]

Other than that, anything 4/6 or slower (to not outrun the infantry) that mounts significant MRMs or big autocannons.  MRMs are BattleTech's equivalent to engineer vehicles, because they do stupid amounts of damage to buildings and fortifications (supporting the infantry's advance).  Big autocannons to keep heavy 'Mechs honest and contribute to anti-fortification work again.  Also useful are anti-infantry weapons in some capacity.

I'm in general agreement with Scotty's definition here, although I disagree with a good number of his suggested units not because they aren't great for the role, but because their value is so much greater than that of any number of infantry platoons that I can't recommend their assignment to such duties. Infantry support should be the purview of light & low-end mediums that can deliver the kind of abilities infantry lack without dedicating too many resources to babysitting mobs of grunts. In many ways, 'Mechs like the Wight strike me as ideal, because they can take extreme amounts of punishment & the Heavy PPC is nearly as effective against 'Mechs & buildings as the AC/20 but can provide the infantry with long-range weapon support.

As Weirdo points out, having a weapon able to strike at ranges beyond what the average infantry platoon can is a significant boon, particularly if it can hit hard enough that it'll make the infantry's crit-seeking weapons more effective once they've closed.

[Sharpnel]

Firestarter.

He said infantry support, not infantry destroyer

[Chinless]

The Gun is an excellent Infantry Support 'Mech, especially if you use its Omni capability to do things like put in Field Kitchens and MASH units.

Unless theres been eratta, neither Field Kitchens or MASH units can be mounted on OmniMechs.

Chris

[Kovax]

I'm in general agreement with Scotty's definition here, although I disagree with a good number of his suggested units not because they aren't great for the role, but because their value is so much greater than that of any number of infantry platoons that I can't recommend their assignment to such duties. Infantry support should be the purview of light & low-end mediums that can deliver the kind of abilities infantry lack without dedicating too many resources to babysitting mobs of grunts.

I agree wholeheartedly with the initial assessment about the value of the support far exceeding the value of what it's supporting, but disagree with the conclusion.  The best 'Mech to support infantry is NONE.  This is a task best left to vehicles, which can fulfill the role just about as well at a small fraction of the cost, freeing the 'Mechs for the mobile operations that they excel at.  The other part of this situation is that the infantry typically IS the support for the 'Mechs or vehicles, not vice versa, possibly except for urban operations where clearing buildings of enemy troops is the primary objective.

[Kit deSummersville]

The Enforcer and Centurion can be rather handy in that role, especially the 'obsolete' 3025 versions.

[Feenix74]

Urbanmech

[Weirdo]

I'm in general agreement with Scotty's definition here, although I disagree with a good number of his suggested units not because they aren't great for the role, but because their value is so much greater than that of any number of infantry platoons that I can't recommend their assignment to such duties. Infantry support should be the purview of light & low-end mediums that can deliver the kind of abilities infantry lack without dedicating too many resources to babysitting mobs of grunts. In many ways, 'Mechs like the Wight strike me as ideal, because they can take extreme amounts of punishment & the Heavy PPC is nearly as effective against 'Mechs & buildings as the AC/20 but can provide the infantry with long-range weapon support.

As Weirdo points out, having a weapon able to strike at ranges beyond what the average infantry platoon can is a significant boon, particularly if it can hit hard enough that it'll make the infantry's crit-seeking weapons more effective once they've closed.

I agree with everything here, especially the part where you agree with me. :)

And with all of the above said, I must say that the Gùn is such a good infantry support mech that in my headcanon, the Chancellor publicly lamented his lack of eligible children to marry off to the design team members, so great was the boon they had given the Confederation. Its only flaw is a lack of a canon config with missiles, for LRM support. I guess that's what Firebees are for?

[Colt Ward]

I agree wholeheartedly with the initial assessment about the value of the support far exceeding the value of what it's supporting, but disagree with the conclusion.  The best 'Mech to support infantry is NONE.  This is a task best left to vehicles, which can fulfill the role just about as well at a small fraction of the cost, freeing the 'Mechs for the mobile operations that they excel at.  The other part of this situation is that the infantry typically IS the support for the 'Mechs or vehicles, not vice versa, possibly except for urban operations where clearing buildings of enemy troops is the primary objective.

Sure, and typically armor would be the go to . . . but you get into that pesky bit about how mechs are all terrain and like infantry can be dropped from on high.  While anything can be air-dropped once, the point of this topic is to support the infantry on the ground.  Infantry Support mechs may have been a doctrine thing with the SL and their numbers but in later eras its going to be mechs assigned to babysit while the rest do something else.  I can easily see a company of infantry holding a woodline while the mechs flank it . . . but to make it harder to dig out the infantry while most the mechs flank, a few are left in the woods.  And you will want those that can best support the infantry.  I would also agree its the low end medium and some lights- but not anything armed with a Gauss Rifle or AC/20.  The previously mentioned Hoplite and Corvis to me are pretty good examples of the ideal set up- ranged 10 pt hit, and something to keep speeding infantry killers away.

For the OP I would suggest looking for the article on the Hoplite, a lot of discussion there on this sort of thing.

[StoneRhino]

The first thing that really needs to be asked is, "What are the infantry that the mech is supposed to be supporting up to?" What is their task? Where are they going? How much infantry is the mech supposed to be supporting?

Before someone says, again, that the infantry should not be supported by a mech one should look at how much a platoon of infantry costs to start up. If we asked "how much infantry is being supported" at the low end of the spectrum of 1 or 2 platoons then we can say that wouldn't be worth it. If we are looking at 3+ platoons then we can start justifying the investment of a mech for support. Replacing troops and patching those that survive is cheaper, but at some point you are going to have completely destroyed platoons.

Yes, vehicles are a lot cheaper. Yes, they are easier to produce due to the lower tech level. Scorpions, everywhere! However, one advantage that a mech has is its height and mobility. If you are placing infantry in open terrain, you're doing it wrong. Since you wouldn't do something like that except in a pinch or to get to where you should be, the supporting unit needs to be able to follow the infantry into their preferred terrain. Tanks can go just about anywhere and are cheaper, but they are also shorter. That's good and bad, depending upon what you are doing.

If your mech is supporting because there is a need for a full range of mobility and the extra height for it to keep eyes on a target, then you better bring a gun that can hit at a decent range. Ac20s? Love them, but not here as it is just to limited. My view is that you need a gun with range and sustain. The mech is supporting, not doing the heavy fighting. If there is heavy fighting then its up to the infantry. Since it is up to the infantry you are likely moving slowly, although with platoons that can hit up to 5mp or 3jumping mp that could be fast in the best terrain for infantry to be in, which is built up areas. While people are talking about completely destroying buildings you don't really need to do that, but threatening to do so is great.

If you are facing opposing infantry then then denying them a safe spot to hide in is the key. Either they are waiting for you to walk up to them so they can pepper you, or they are being used as spotters. If they can't stay there they can't wait for you to walk up. If they stay there and die, they can't spot for anyone. An Ac2 or Ac5 can be used to root out opposing infantry if we are looking at low tech weapons. If the other side lacks support that can meet that range, you're going to either kill their infantry where they are or force them to move. It might be a slow process but if you just need the job done, and done safely, it might not be all that bad to force them out instead of moving up to engage them with your infantry. A tank could do the same job, but the additional elevation of the attack allowing you to fire over level 1 structures or hills could make a significant difference.

The Vulcan and the Sentinel are well suited for the role of pushing infantry around and picking on short range armored units. They aren't going to be butchering BA, but an Ac5 poking at a point from a distance isn't the worst thing in the world.

[ravensword]

I was originally wondering which (if any) other 'Mechs were canonically used for infantry support duties by the SLDF, but now the discussion does have me thinking about a Republic-era militia force with leftover heavy and assault 'Mechs supporting it.

[MadCapellan]

Regarding the SLDF, the 'Mechs canonically used for infantry support include the Thorn, Sentinel, Vulcan, & Hoplite. All for fall generally within the guidelines we've been describing for performance.

[Colt Ward]

The Corvis was designed by the Hell's Horses for just that sort of thing IIRC.  Previous discussion speculated on Hoplites and Sentinels also doing so . . . honestly, it strikes me as a good use of the old Panthers too.

I would agree with the other posters that using heavy or assault mechs to support infantry may be wasteful (putting aside you use what you have situations) . . . they may have infantry supporting them- following along behind to guard the flanks by unloading from APCs to occupy woods or buildings.

[Scotty]

Unless theres been eratta, neither Field Kitchens or MASH units can be mounted on OmniMechs.

Chris

This restriction makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[grimlock1]

This restriction makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I agree.  You certainly couldn't use it in motion, but treat it like a Collapsible Command Module. 

[Sir Chaos]

I think the main task of units supporting infantry is to keep enemy units (vehicles and mechs) armed with machine guns and flamers away from them. So such a unit would need speed to keep up with the fastest infantry (3 walk/cruise MP) plus jump jets if we´re talking about jump infantry.

Mechs have the advantage over vehicles here that they can cross any terrain that foot/jump/motorized infantry platoon can, whereas even tracked vehicles are blocked by heavy woods. Vehicles would be more suited to support mechanized infantry of their own movement type - tracked vehicles with tracked mechanized infantry, wheeled with wheeled, hover with hover.

To provide the abovementioned protection, such a unit would need weapons with a range far exceeding that of machine guns and flamers, in order to stay with their infantry while engaging enemy anti-infantry units before those units reach machine gun and flamer range. Luckily, almost any weapon fits that description
I think it would also need machine guns and flamers of its own, in order to destroy enemy field guns that would otherwise engage friendly infantry from beyond that infantry´s own range.
Speed is a plus, but not essential. On the other hand, the unit should be fairly tough (at least for its size) so as not to have to rely on speed for protection - because it will often be tied down defending its infantry, unable to run around in order to keep up the TMM to avoid being hit. It doesn´t have to be particularly heavy, since anything requiring a heavy mech to protect infantry from it is not the infantry´s job to engage to begin with.

Of the reasonably common 3025 mechs, I think the Phoenix Hawk, Hermes II and Firestarter fit these criteria pretty well - except of course the Hermes II is poorly suited to support jump infantry, since it lacks jump jets of its own. The Vulcan, Locust and Stinger are all too fragile for my taste, and better suited for scouting.

[grimlock1]

I think the main task of units supporting infantry is to keep enemy units (vehicles and mechs) armed with machine guns and flamers away from them. So such a unit would need speed to keep up with the fastest infantry (3 walk/cruise MP) plus jump jets if we´re talking about jump infantry.

Mechs have the advantage over vehicles here that they can cross any terrain that foot/jump/motorized infantry platoon can, whereas even tracked vehicles are blocked by heavy woods. Vehicles would be more suited to support mechanized infantry of their own movement type - tracked vehicles with tracked mechanized infantry, wheeled with wheeled, hover with hover.

To provide the abovementioned protection, such a unit would need weapons with a range far exceeding that of machine guns and flamers, in order to stay with their infantry while engaging enemy anti-infantry units before those units reach machine gun and flamer range. Luckily, almost any weapon fits that description
I think it would also need machine guns and flamers of its own, in order to destroy enemy field guns that would otherwise engage friendly infantry from beyond that infantry´s own range.
Speed is a plus, but not essential. On the other hand, the unit should be fairly tough (at least for its size) so as not to have to rely on speed for protection - because it will often be tied down defending its infantry, unable to run around in order to keep up the TMM to avoid being hit. It doesn´t have to be particularly heavy, since anything requiring a heavy mech to protect infantry from it is not the infantry´s job to engage to begin with.

Of the reasonably common 3025 mechs, I think the Phoenix Hawk, Hermes II and Firestarter fit these criteria pretty well - except of course the Hermes II is poorly suited to support jump infantry, since it lacks jump jets of its own. The Vulcan, Locust and Stinger are all too fragile for my taste, and better suited for scouting.

Maybe at least one bigger gun, >10 for anti-BA work.  10 points will kill any BA squishier than a classic Toad, and put a serious hurt  on even assault class BA.

[Chinless]

This restriction makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Its a size issue. A 3t field kitchen can support 150 workers for a week; that ain't gonna be small. Same goes for MASH units. Both items also have crew requirements too.

Chris