’Mech of the Week: Sphinx

[Klat]

EDIT: Thought better of the first half of my post and decided I was being a bit harsh. Many apologies if anyone was offended. The second half of my post remains:

I really like the up-gunned Nova comparison myself; the extra range of the CERLLs gives you some options before going in for the kill that I don't think you get with the Nova prime. It seems to me the ERMLs would work best with the 'mech's feet planted unless one is confident of the kill, though I suppose that if someone is that confident they can just alpha strike and risk shutdown. Also, I have to wonder, as much as I loath the idea of using a heavy 'mech in such a fashion could the Sphinx double as an Elemental killer?

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

At even a 50% hit ratio, the Elemental point will be dead in two turns, so yes I think it could do well.

[Jellico]

I don't think anyone thinks the Sphinx is a weak 'Mech. It is boring, a glorified Penetrator, and exposing the weaknesses is the point of these discussions.

[Diablo48]

EDIT: Thought better of the first half of my post and decided I was being a bit harsh. Many apologies if anyone was offended. The second half of my post remains:

I really like the up-gunned Nova comparison myself; the extra range of the CERLLs gives you some options before going in for the kill that I don't think you get with the Nova prime. It seems to me the ERMLs would work best with the 'mech's feet planted unless one is confident of the kill, though I suppose that if someone is that confident they can just alpha strike and risk shutdown. Also, I have to wonder, as much as I loath the idea of using a heavy 'mech in such a fashion could the Sphinx double as an Elemental killer?

Honestly, the real advantage of the Sphinx over the Nova is the armor.  Short range combat hurts and you have to weather fire on the way in, so for something like the Sphinx you really need every bit of protection you can get.  The ERLLs are really fairly incidental most of the time because the firepower is fairly sad when compared to other Clan heavies so you need to either hide to avoid making yourself a target or charge into ERML range which should only force you to use them for a round or two.

As for anti-Elemental operations, I think that may actually have been part of the intent behind the design because the mess of 7-point clusters from the ERMLs are not really great for working over 'Mechs, but they do a very nice job of quickly building 11+ damage per Elemental and even the toughest suits cannot survive three ERML hits so you can effectively deal with the assault suits that are notorious for eating Gauss slugs for breakfast.  The reach of the lasers also lets you keep safely out of range of the nastier new suits while grinding through their armor which is another big plus, although you must be wary of their allies because you will be putting yourself in easy range of most Clan heavy weapons.

[Neufeld]

Seriously, though, I don't see why anyone would bad-mouth this design. It's not bad at all, being an up-gunned Nova.

While I would not badmouth it as a design by its own merits, I would hardly call something that lacks jump-jets an up-gunned Nova.

[Ratwedge]

While I would not badmouth it as a design by its own merits, I would hardly call something that lacks jump-jets an up-gunned Nova.

So its okay to call it a 'glorified Penetrator' when its a different techbase, faster and lacks jump-jets but not an up-gunned Nova?

[Neufeld]

So its okay to call it a 'glorified Penetrator' when its a different techbase, faster and lacks jump-jets but not an up-gunned Nova?

No, it is not.

[wantec]

So, Sphinx vs Tundra Wolf -- the battle of the TRO3085 75 ton Clan mechs, which one is better?

In my mind that really depends on the Tundra Wolf variant. The Sphinx variants (including the two extra DA versions) are pretty similar. In flat open terrain the Sphinx will probably have the edge, but in any other terrain the jump jets and MASC will even things up for the Tundra Wolf and maybe even give it an edge in heavily wooded or broken terrain. The Tundra Wolf 3 I think would have the hardest time taking on a Sphinx, even though it has a fearsome armament, I think its weak armor would likely give out before it could take down a Sphinx.

Overall, the Tundra Wolf variants are geared towards fighting at long range, where as the Sphinx prefers medium or short range. The Sphinx variants sacrifice long range firepower for a lot of short range punch. The Tundra Wolf variants can dish out a lot of damage at any range, but can't match the Sphinx up close. It all depends on who can dictate the range better.

[Matti]

I'd like to point out that Sphinx's weapon placement is excellent: arm mounted ERLarges give full arc of fire, and in physical distance arms can be used for punching while torso mounted ER Mediums blast away. Excellent! O0

[Pa Weasley]

In a front line star or Keshik a Sphinx is most likely going to be paired with a Nova Cat, which while slower most configs are heavily geared toward long range combat. The two work very well together. One could almost go so far as to say that it's on purpose.  :D Woe to the poor soul who finds themselves facing such a star in an environment were a Nova Cat D would be ideal.

It may lack finesse, it may be boring, but it's hard to argue that the Sphinx isn't brutally affective inside 15 hexes. It's a welcome addition to the Cat's touman and the anchor of many a star I've built. Since some of the previous discussions have abandoned all pretext of zellbrigen, imagine a Shadow Cats dropping off a point of LB-X equipped Thunderbird BA in range to finish off someone a Sphinx has had a turn or two to mess with.  {>{>


Sorry, where was I?

[Jellico]

I'd like to point out that Sphinx's weapon placement is excellent: arm mounted ERLarges give full arc of fire, and in physical distance arms can be used for punching while torso mounted ER Mediums blast away. Excellent! O0

Full arc fire matters less at longer ranges. As a simple example. Consider how far a unit has to move to get out of a 'Mech's field of fire at 20 hexes. Then consider how far a unit has to move at 2 hexes.

Is the ability to add two 8 point punches at 1 hex range worth the loss of the ability to put 35 points of damage, or even 70 or 90 points of damage into the rear arc? What about arm loss?

It's a judgement call.

No, it is not.

Oh, I don't know. A 75 ton 'Mech with 2 x ERLL for sniping and a preference for close range where a bevy of medium lasers can be brought to bear? I know more than a few people around here consider 4/6/4 to be the equivilant of 5/8.

[Ian Sharpe]

Full arc fire matters less at longer ranges. As a simple example. Consider how far a unit has to move to get out of a 'Mech's field of fire at 20 hexes. Then consider how far a unit has to move at 2 hexes.

Is the ability to add two 8 point punches at 1 hex range worth the loss of the ability to put 35 points of damage, or even 70 or 90 points of damage into the rear arc? What about arm loss?

It's a judgement call.

I probably prefer most of the ERMLs be torso mounted, but wouldn't mind say two in each arm.  I've lost too many arms, even on heavies to want all or most of my firepower in them.  Like you said, a judgement call. 

Oh, I don't know. A 75 ton 'Mech with 2 x ERLL for sniping and a preference for close range where a bevy of medium lasers can be brought to bear? I know more than a few people around here consider 4/6/4 to be the equivilant of 5/8.

Sounds more like a Clan Flashman, IMO. :)

[Istal_Devalis]

Honestly, the real advantage of the Sphinx over the Nova is the armor.  Short range combat hurts and you have to weather fire on the way in, so for something like the Sphinx you really need every bit of protection you can get. 

Actually, I'd say the real advantage is in the Heat Sinks. The Nova P has devastating firepower, but it cant use most of it unless you want to shut down. The Sphinx isnt quite as limited and can fire its ERML barrage without really worrying about it. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

Honestly, the Sphinx is a Clan Warlord.  And it does its job very well, just like its IS spiritual brother.

[Diablo48]

Actually, I'd say the real advantage is in the Heat Sinks. The Nova P has devastating firepower, but it cant use most of it unless you want to shut down. The Sphinx isnt quite as limited and can fire its ERML barrage without really worrying about it.

The sinks are nice, but in larger games the armor becomes more important because closing into ERML range paints a giant target on your 'Mech so the Sphinx will have a better chance of surviving for a second round of fire than the Nova will.  After all, heat dissipation does not matter if you get shredded in the first round of fire.

Honestly, the Sphinx is a Clan Warlord.  And it does its job very well, just like its IS spiritual brother.

Not at all.  The power of the ERLLs is frankly crap which leaves the Sphinx with no choice but to rush in to brawl with its ERMLs.  The Warlord on the other hand has a pair of HPPCs to tear up opponents at range with the battery of Medium Lasers serving as either a way to discourage enemies from closing or a finisher which makes it more of a true assault 'Mech unlike the Sphinx which is a heavy cav brawler.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Not at all.  The power of the ERLLs is frankly crap

Two ten-point blasts out to range 25 is hardly crap.

[Matti]

Consider this: if Sphinx and Timber Wolf A would fight, who would win? Has anyone played it out?

[Diablo48]

Two ten-point blasts out to range 25 is hardly crap.

It is for a Clan heavy.  As Jellico said, the minimum for a Clan heavy is 30 damage at 20+ hexes, but in practice you really want more than that.  I try to push up to about 40 unless I have a targeting assist, a seriously nasty short ranged battery, or a significant other advantage like Jump Jets, EW gear, or FL armor which can make up for only doing 30 damage at long range.  There are a few odd niches that get special exemption like urban combat specialist omni configurations, artillery platforms, or 6/9 60 toners which are really overgrown mediums and should be assessed as such, but in general you need 30+ damage at long range for a Clan heavy to be worthwhile.

[Scotty]

the minimum for a Clan heavy is 30 damage at 20+ hexes

I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that such a restriction existed.

I try to push up to about 40 unless I have..., a seriously nasty short ranged battery

I... what?  I really have no idea how that doesn't fit the Sphinx to a T.

[Diablo48]

I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that such a restriction existed.

It is a utility issue.  If you have less than 30 damage you are always going to be vulnerable at long range, and there are plenty of Clan heavies that can keep the range open against a Sphinx for long enough for that difference to be decisive.

I... what?  I really have no idea how that doesn't fit the Sphinx to a T.

That was with 30 damage as opposed to 40 damage or three LPLs, not the pitiful 20 long range damage the Sphinx has.  If the Sphinx had ERPPCs instead of ERLLs it would be fine, but as is it has a potentially crippling weakness at long range.

[Scotty]

Right, because the ability to force a PSR at 25 hexes is a "crippling weakness".

[Klat]

I posted a design thread if anyone is interested in showing off how they would redesign the Sphinx

[Moonsword]

Could we have a little more of that good ol' Fan Articles thoughtful discussion and a little less arguing in circles and vitriol, please?

[Diablo48]

I posted a design thread if anyone is interested in showing off how they would redesign the Sphinx

I put an upgrade over there in line with what I was saying about getting the long range damage up to acceptable levels for reference.   It will maul the canon Sphinx quite nicely with 50% more long range damage at virtually no cost to the short ranged battery.

[Istal_Devalis]

Considering the Nova Cats seem to be making inroads in making Laser Reflective their 'thing', I'd like to see how layering that armor on a Sphinx mixes things up.  (Possibly combined with the DA 'standard' MASC+TC ERML combo) Considering how much the Clans tend to rely on energy guns for their long range fire, anyways.

[Jellico]

Considering how much the Clans tend to rely on energy guns for their long range fire, anyways.

They do?

[Headshot]

The Clan players certainly do.  O:-)

[Diablo48]

They do?

Most larger Clan 'Mechs use at least one or two heavy energy weapons so you will probably cut at least 10 damage out of the incoming fire, although there are most definitely exceptions like the Bane or the twin HAG-40 'Mechs.

[chanman]

Someone's going to have to explain this short-ranged C/ERML thing to me because I didn't realize that standard Large Lasers and AC/10s were short-ranged guns now.

[Diablo48]

Someone's going to have to explain this short-ranged C/ERML thing to me because I didn't realize that standard Large Lasers and AC/10s were short-ranged guns now.

They are not in the IS, but Clan weapons have more reach across the board so anything less than 20 hexes is short range.