Author Topic: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)  (Read 4135 times)

TigerShark

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Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« on: 20 January 2019, 22:23:10 »
MECHSHOT MUNITIONS
In the midst of the Third Succession War, the realization that high technology could no longer be fielded in great numbers became a sobering reality. The House Lords withdrew their first-class forces to important worlds in response, jealously guarding the last bastions of ingenuity. Replacing for the Star League's weaponry was no longer possible, but creative solutions with the materials at-hand would become a hallmark of this era.

One of the simplest weapons to be produced by the Star League was the LB-X autocannon. Being made of a relatively-common (though expensive) alloy, its technology was cloned by every nation, including the battle-scarred Periphery powers. In the desperate conditions of the Succession Wars, however, the Great Houses became increasingly frugal, allowing the metallurgical knowledge needed to be lost to the sands of time. Its replacement, as innovative as it was, was a mere shadow of its ancestor and grew to be a costly alternative.

The original LB-X cluster round, after which Mechshot is patterned, was intended to be fired through a barrel with shallow rifling. Since Mechshot is used in weapons with an unsuitable bore, however, it causes the barrel to become easily-fouled and worn, ruining the weapon and requiring replacement. Due to its destructiveness to valuable (and rare) hardware during a time of scarcity, Mechshot saw only limited production runs, primarily fielded by anti-aircraft units defending static positions.

RULES
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Mechshot Munitions ("MSM") can be used by any caliber of standard autocannon, but cannot be loaded by LB-X or Ultra ACs. When fired against ground targets, MSM grants the player a -1 to-hit bonus against ground targets and a -3 flak bonus against airborne targets.

Each time an AC fires a round of MSM, the player must make a roll with a target number of 3 to determine if the barrel is fouled. If he succeeds, no negative effect occurs and the weapon fires as normal. For each turn Mechshot is fired during a game, increase the target number needed to avoid fouling by +1. This penalty is cumulative. (Example: Turn 1 of firing requires a "3" to avoid fouling, Turn 2 requires a "4", Turn 3 requires a "5", etc.)

On a failed roll, the barrel becomes fouled, incurring a +1 penalty to-hit. These to-hit penalties affect all ammunition types fired by the weapon and are cumulative, to a maximum of +4 to-hit. This effect remains until the end of the game.

Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Tech Level: Experimental
Availability: B/X-D-X-C
Prototype: 2990 (AFFS)
Production: 2993 (AFFS), 3015 (All)
Extinct: 3052
Cost: 15,000 C-Bills per ton
Damage Type: Cluster
Damage: Varies (2, 5, 10, or 20) (1 damage/pellet)
« Last Edit: 24 January 2019, 11:52:43 by TigerShark »
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Daryk

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #1 on: 21 January 2019, 06:11:00 »
Interesting idea, but why make the fouling roll separate from the to-hit roll?   ???

Also, I think a penalty on the cluster roll would be appropriate.  The fouling alone wouldn't really deter use after LB-Xs come back.

TigerShark

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #2 on: 21 January 2019, 10:50:24 »
Interesting idea, but why make the fouling roll separate from the to-hit roll?   ???
Because as it is written, it has guaranteed failure at some point. Turn 1 of fire is +0. Turn 2 is +1. Turn 3 is +2, and so on. Eventually you'll get to +10. The point is that it -WILL- fail at some point in its usage.

By stapling this to the to-hit roll, it would have a +0 until you rolled a 2. And I don't want it being that efficient or useful. It's meant to be a stop-gap measure, like Prototype Pulse Lasers (which gain an additional 1d6 heat every time you fire). With that crappy of a weapon, it's going to fall into disuse once the "real thing" comes back.
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  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
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Daryk

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #3 on: 21 January 2019, 10:56:54 »
So "to a maximum of +3" doesn't apply?  ???

TigerShark

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #4 on: 21 January 2019, 12:53:21 »
So "to a maximum of +3" doesn't apply?  ???
Example:

Actually, this might be better without jamming. Just cap the maximum penalty at +4.

Turn 1: +0
Turn 2: +1
Turn 3: +2
Turn 4: +3
Turn 4: +4
Turn 5+: +4
« Last Edit: 21 January 2019, 12:55:35 by TigerShark »
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Daryk

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #5 on: 21 January 2019, 13:16:45 »
Is the penalty to hit cumulative, or does it just stay at +1 once it's fouled?

TigerShark

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #6 on: 21 January 2019, 13:57:26 »
Is the penalty to hit cumulative, or does it just stay at +1 once it's fouled?
Fixed.
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Daryk

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #7 on: 21 January 2019, 14:00:20 »
Ok, now it makes sense... thanks!

Atarlost

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #8 on: 23 January 2019, 15:42:48 »
The real question is why no one thought to use the same propellant used in standard autocannon rounds instead of using black powder for this munition and this munition only. 

TigerShark

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #9 on: 24 January 2019, 02:11:55 »
The real question is why no one thought to use the same propellant used in standard autocannon rounds instead of using black powder for this munition and this munition only.
Excellent question. I'll change this to a more real-world explanation.
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RifleMech

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #10 on: 24 January 2019, 03:43:41 »
Is this ammo for AC/10s only? The damage would seem to indicate that. Also that it completely jams after 10 shots seems to indicate AC/10 use. The smaller autocannons would never use up all their ammo. The AC/20 I guess could use the ammo but I'm not sure I'd want to damage such a big weapon.


Instead of jamming why not reduce the weapons range or damage as a result of the shot spreading out?

TigerShark

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #11 on: 24 January 2019, 11:59:51 »
Is this ammo for AC/10s only? The damage would seem to indicate that. Also that it completely jams after 10 shots seems to indicate AC/10 use. The smaller autocannons would never use up all their ammo. The AC/20 I guess could use the ammo but I'm not sure I'd want to damage such a big weapon.

Instead of jamming why not reduce the weapons range or damage as a result of the shot spreading out?
Because that's what it does in the real world. :) Using buckshot in a rifled barrel (for example) will eat away at the rifling, decreasing its accuracy over time until it becomes pretty useless. It doesn't "jam," really. But then neither would a military-grade rifle jam while being used for its normal function (Ultra AC). BT reality vs. our reality, I guess.

Also, the shot spreads out even less due to the nature of the rifling and muzzle width, to my memory. A rifled barrel doesn't have the same flaring that a smoothbore provides. So the shot becomes concentrated and less useful for its intended purpose.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2019, 12:01:44 by TigerShark »
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  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

RifleMech

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #12 on: 24 January 2019, 20:09:25 »
Because that's what it does in the real world. :) Using buckshot in a rifled barrel (for example) will eat away at the rifling, decreasing its accuracy over time until it becomes pretty useless. It doesn't "jam," really. But then neither would a military-grade rifle jam while being used for its normal function (Ultra AC). BT reality vs. our reality, I guess.

Weapons do jam though for various reasons. Ammo doesn't go off. Shells get stuck. The Barrel fouls. As for Ultras I can see them jamming also. You can rapid fire a revolver but you can also break it by rapid firing it too fast. I believe there was a Mythbusters episode where they did that. ACs and Ultras are like that. They can rapid fire but too much will break them.


Quote
Also, the shot spreads out even less due to the nature of the rifling and muzzle width, to my memory. A rifled barrel doesn't have the same flaring that a smoothbore provides. So the shot becomes concentrated and less useful for its intended purpose.

Which is why the LB-Xs has always bugged me. They're fluffed as smoothbore weapons but they have increased range and accuracy. I would think it'd be less, even more so for shot.


edit
Looking up ammo types on wiki I'm wondering why MSM wouldn't have a sabot to keep the shot from fouling the rifling.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2019, 21:21:47 by RifleMech »

Atarlost

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #13 on: 25 January 2019, 23:13:30 »
Because that's what it does in the real world. :) Using buckshot in a rifled barrel (for example) will eat away at the rifling, decreasing its accuracy over time until it becomes pretty useless. It doesn't "jam," really. But then neither would a military-grade rifle jam while being used for its normal function (Ultra AC). BT reality vs. our reality, I guess.

If it's based on LBX it's not buckshot.  It's a timed or proximity fused grenade.  Projectiles spreading in a cone as buckshot does would act like HAGs.  Rifling would have no more impact on LBX cluster ammo than rifling in an artillery piece prevents it from firing air burst shells. 

A more fluff compliant penalty would be to have a firing penalty because the pilot has to manually set the fusing distance due to sufficiently small proximity fuses being lostech. 

RifleMech

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #14 on: 26 January 2019, 07:05:03 »
If it's based on LBX it's not buckshot.  It's a timed or proximity fused grenade.  Projectiles spreading in a cone as buckshot does would act like HAGs.  Rifling would have no more impact on LBX cluster ammo than rifling in an artillery piece prevents it from firing air burst shells. 

It is described as working like a shotgun though hence my confusion.

Quote
A more fluff compliant penalty would be to have a firing penalty because the pilot has to manually set the fusing distance due to sufficiently small proximity fuses being lostech.

I don't think that would work as Flak Ammo doesn't have to be manually set. There's also fluff for the Partisan AA Tank were the ammo proximity fuses are automatically disarmed when firing at ground targets. Which reminds me, why isn't that ammo an actual thing? Being able to have ammo that acts as both standard and flak ammo without having to use extra tonnage and crits would be great.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2019, 07:12:38 by RifleMech »

TigerShark

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #15 on: 26 January 2019, 14:42:09 »
If it's based on LBX it's not buckshot.  It's a timed or proximity fused grenade.  Projectiles spreading in a cone as buckshot does would act like HAGs.  Rifling would have no more impact on LBX cluster ammo than rifling in an artillery piece prevents it from firing air burst shells. 

A more fluff compliant penalty would be to have a firing penalty because the pilot has to manually set the fusing distance due to sufficiently small proximity fuses being lostech.
If proximity fuzes were common (or able to be produced), thunder and thunder vibro-mines would not be considered "lostech" during the late Succession Wars. The very same mechanism that's used in fuze grenades are used in naval mines.

The LB-X guns are described as smooth-bore, but as they have no decrease in accuracy for their "slug" rounds, they wouldn't be true nickel slugs like they use in a gauss rifle. Hence why I described it as having a loose spiral, as they have in weapons like the Taurus Judge firearm being produced today. It allows for standard and shotgun munitions and that was their solution.
Era Report: 2750, page 98
Quote
A highly advanced weapon system, the LB-X could switch between ammunition like standard autocannon rounds or fire a shotgun style round that would split into hundreds of explosive sub-munitions. This style of submunition was particularly effective against vehicles, but also proved effective for short-range anti-aircraft flak, and for dispersing attacking infantry.


Tech Manual, page 207
Quote
These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons.

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RifleMech

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #16 on: 27 January 2019, 05:22:27 »
If proximity fuzes were common (or able to be produced), thunder and thunder vibro-mines would not be considered "lostech" during the late Succession Wars. The very same mechanism that's used in fuze grenades are used in naval mines.

The TRO:3026 Partisan AA Tank entry talks about ammo with proximity fuses that can be disarmed so the rounds can be used against ground targets.  Too bad it isn't legal. :(  As for other ammos, maybe the fuse system isn't strong enough to do full damage the way cluster rounds do. Flak does half damage. As for mines, probably the same,  you have to scatter a missile worth of mines all over a hex.

Quote
The LB-X guns are described as smooth-bore, but as they have no decrease in accuracy for their "slug" rounds, they wouldn't be true nickel slugs like they use in a gauss rifle. Hence why I described it as having a loose spiral, as they have in weapons like the Taurus Judge firearm being produced today. It allows for standard and shotgun munitions and that was their solution.
Era Report: 2750, page 98

Tech Manual, page 207


TRO:2750 also says the LB-X has a built in targeting computer which would explain the increased accuracy.

TigerShark

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #17 on: 27 January 2019, 06:45:45 »
The TRO:3026 Partisan AA Tank entry talks about ammo with proximity fuses that can be disarmed so the rounds can be used against ground targets.  Too bad it isn't legal. :(  As for other ammos, maybe the fuse system isn't strong enough to do full damage the way cluster rounds do. Flak does half damage. As for mines, probably the same,  you have to scatter a missile worth of mines all over a hex.

TRO:2750 also says the LB-X has a built in targeting computer which would explain the increased accuracy.
Smoothbore accuracy can't be calculated after a certain distance. It can be estimated based on wind strength, curvature of the planet, gravity, etc., but the wobble of the round just makes it too unpredictable. It would look more like +0/+1/+2 to-hit and 0/-1/-2 damage or something close to it, IMO.
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #18 on: 28 January 2019, 16:51:34 »
TRO:2750 also says the LB-X has a built in targeting computer which would explain the increased accuracy.
built-in rangefinder and ballistic computer
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grimlock1

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #19 on: 29 January 2019, 11:36:51 »
If proximity fuzes were common (or able to be produced), thunder and thunder vibro-mines would not be considered "lostech" during the late Succession Wars. The very same mechanism that's used in fuze grenades are used in naval mines.


LB autocannons made a lot more sense once I saw a video of Sensor Fused Munitions 
"Cluster" rounds contain one or more "skeets" with EFPs.  The skeets deploy in that wobbly manner, sweeping a much larger volume than a conventional "slug" round and detonating when they detect a target.
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RifleMech

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #20 on: 30 January 2019, 05:08:30 »
Smoothbore accuracy can't be calculated after a certain distance. It can be estimated based on wind strength, curvature of the planet, gravity, etc., but the wobble of the round just makes it too unpredictable. It would look more like +0/+1/+2 to-hit and 0/-1/-2 damage or something close to it, IMO.

That's what I would have thought.  Targeting and damage gets worse with range. Fluff says different though. Maybe the rounds are fin stabilized? I've also wondered why that targeting computer couldn't be added to regular ACs.


built-in rangefinder and ballistic computer

exactly.

BloodRose

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #21 on: 26 February 2019, 21:05:07 »
Just as a point:
Shotguns are not rifled, and rifling does the exact opposite of what you want it to do here. Rifling in any shotgun type weapon produces more spin inertia in the ammunition. This means that the pellets that leave the barrel do not stay clustered tight, as they normally do, but instead spread out over a wide area. If you want accuracy with a shotgun you want a smoothbore weapon. Remember you can also load FS slug if you want to fire off solid shot.
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Sockmonkey

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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #22 on: 28 March 2019, 01:33:41 »
Maybe the rounds are fin stabilized?
That's what I figured. Maybe a finned sabot that breaks open after a short distance just to make sure the bits are all headed the same way before allowing them to spread out a bit as opposed to just letting them bounce their way down the barrel. That would give you a cloud of bits flying in close formation as opposed to a spray.
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Re: Experimental Autocannon Ammo: 'Mechshot Munitions (MSM)
« Reply #23 on: 28 March 2019, 03:04:25 »
That's what I figured. Maybe a finned sabot that breaks open after a short distance just to make sure the bits are all headed the same way before allowing them to spread out a bit as opposed to just letting them bounce their way down the barrel. That would give you a cloud of bits flying in close formation as opposed to a spray.

Sounds good to me.