MechWarrior: Destiny

[Daryk]

If they are new, it has no advantage. Rolling any dice in an RPG format will be new to them, so no need to stick to a limiting, poor scaling 2d6 system

I disagree.  Many board popular board games use 2d6 (Monopoly, anyone?)...

[Scotty]

Okay but what about good games?

[Daryk]

The sales figures would like to have a word with you...

[skiltao]

from my pov, many of the problems stem from trying to adapt a 2D6 system that lacks granularity <snip> into a gaming environment that requires granularity.

Does the RPG gaming environment require granularity? I would say that four levels of proficiency (especially on a 2d6 curve where each level is substantial) is plenty. I think the problem is more that intermediate levels of experience don't have enough kinds of things to flex on and differentiate themselves (and which is different from wishing for skill bloat).

[Scotty]

The sales figures would like to have a word with you...

Ah, yes, that most final declaration of quality: popularity.

I miss the four or five years when Twilight was better than Lord of the Rings. ::)

[Daryk]

Twilight novels were really more popular than Tolkien's masterpieces?  That could be ascribed to there simply being more people alive today than when Tolkien was writing.  Look at the current sales figures, and I think you'll find Monopoly (all variants) still outsells anything we do with minis (GW's success (as documented by no less than The Economist) notwithstanding).

[nckestrel]

Ah, yes, that most final declaration of quality: popularity.

Oh yes, let's dismiss sales figures for what random dude on the Internet says is good.  What could go wrong? :)

[Scotty]

Oh yes, let's dismiss sales figures for what random dude on the Internet says is good.  What could go wrong? :)

Have you played a game of Monopoly lately?  It's awful.  It was designed to be awful and succeeded admirably.

[Euphonium]

I've repeatedly seen Monopoly held up as an example of bad game design. I don't deny Monopoly is popular, but popular is not the same as good.

[BlCharger]

For a game that's been around since the Great Depression I would say Monopoly has done pretty darn well.

[nckestrel]

Have you played a game of Monopoly lately?  It's awful.  It was designed to be awful and succeeded admirably.

Yes.  Actually more often than I’ve played BattleTech this year. And that part is true for a VAST majority of the world.  You aren’t winning that one. 

[Sartris]

I HATE monopoly... I also have two copies in my house

[monbvol]

As someone who's dice have been so against them that if I wanted Edge in 3rd on multiple characters(it was just a truly bad methodology IMO) or that solved the imbalance of the life paths and that it wasn't like 3rd didn't have other issues too(damage resolution tables I'm looking at you) I'll take AToW's do 90% of the math once in character creation over 3rd every time.

[Talen5000]

2d6 has the huge advantage of familiarity to completely new players (i.e., no prior TT or RPG experience).

I also find it odd to see complaints about too much math alongside "granularity" arguments for 2d10...  ::)

Well, you don't need math to understand the concept that sometimes +1 is a major difference and sometimes a minor, or that a result of 2-12 gives fewer results than 3-18 or 2-20

There are three alternate systems I would consider potentially suitable for BT in the never event that it is redone.

3D6....216 outcomes, retains the familiarity of D6s, allows for interesting combos such as doubles or triples but it still has the problem of being a curve - it is just flatter

2D10...100 possible outcomes, offers interesting combos such as doubles or percentiles, but it is still a curve, just flatter. Not to mention, a lot pf the conversion work has already been done for MW3.

1D20...it is one dice, and you read the result directly,it isn't a curve and it lacks interesting combos such as doubles.

Any of these could potentially fill in.

[Daryk]

Let me just plant the flag pole for sticking with the table top's 2d6 right here (again).  Anything else needlessly complicates a casual gamer's integration into other levels of the game.

[General308]

Have you played a game of Monopoly lately?  It's awful.  It was designed to be awful and succeeded admirably.

Is not.  You just jumped the shark

[victor_shaw]

OK Monopoly is boring as hell I will give you that much but that alone doesn't make it awful.
It's a boardgame that does what it was designed t do, entertain a family for the night.
The dice system is the same one that is used in most if not all boardgames of its era for movement.
So outside of it's popularity as a family/party game what does this have to do with Mechwarrior RPG?

As for the question of 3rd vs. 4th.
I personally would pick 2nd every time.
The simple fact is that the Battletech universe is a boardgaming universe first and foremost.
it's not L5R, shadowrun, D&D,etc.
The fact that they have an RPG is pushing for a fanbase that is not normally interested in that type of game.
And the fact that it has a fanbase within battletech players is amazing.

As for Mechwarrior: Destiny
It suffers from the same issues that a lot of RPG including shadowrun 6th ED have these days.
Catchphrasitus: Simplified, streamlined, easy to learn, faster, storytelling.
The problem here is that these terms tend to only appeal to part-time, casual-gamer's
The type that will give you a quick first book sales high, but never provide a sold sales base going forward.

And the idea that it can be used as a intro drug for the core RPG is silly.
That's like saying because they like Monopoly we can use it as a gateway into Twilight Imperium.
Now will it get CGL a quick buck, sure will it be sustainable from this, not likely.

[DarkSpade]

The real question is, have you ever played Monopoly without any house rules(like collecting cash in the free parking spot)?  It's those rules that make the game so awful.  Everyone always blows off the bidding rules too, and those can cut the game time in half.

As for Mechwarrior: Destiny
It suffers from the same issues that a lot of RPG including shadowrun 6th ED have these days.
Catchphrasitus: Simplified, streamlined, easy to learn, faster, storytelling.
The problem here is that these terms tend to only appeal to part-time, casual-gamer's
The type that will give you a quick first book sales high, but never provide a sold sales base going forward.

I do wonder who it's going to appeal to.  Anarchy made sense in theory since there's people out there that love the shadowrun world, but felt 5th ed was way too over complicated.  In my opinion it went way too far, but it still made sense.   For battletech though, I'm not so sure.  Isn't battletech's real draw its mechs, and not it's potential for roleplaying?

Here's a thought, what if instead of being designed to integrate easily into Battletech, Destiny is designed to integrate with Alpha Strike?

[LightGuard]

Here's a thought, what if instead of being designed to integrate easily into Battletech, Destiny is designed to integrate with Alpha Strike?

<Insert Groucho Marx meme here> I think he said the secret word!

This idea or thought process literally makes Destiny more interesting to me right now than anytime since it was announced. The RPGs have, historically, shoehorned themselves into the table top, and I can't find any rules in Alpha Strike or AToW that would help players integrate the two systems.

Destiny just might be that missing key...

[victor_shaw]

<Insert Groucho Marx meme here> I think he said the secret word!

This idea or thought process literally makes Destiny more interesting to me right now than anytime since it was announced. The RPGs have, historically, shoehorned themselves into the table top, and I can't find any rules in Alpha Strike or AToW that would help players integrate the two systems.

Destiny just might be that missing key...

Except, The type of gamers that a narrative game like the cue system will bring in are likely not going to be to interested in any of the  boardgames.
That's not saying that like Anarchy, there will not be a niche group of battletech gamers that are into it.
But this doesn't mean it will be any good for Battletech overall, as it will just divert more resources away from AToW or its successors.
Or lead to another shadowrun 6th.
Overall I see this as being a bad thing for the RPG players in general.
And as seen with shadowrun.
CGL is going to go where the money lead even if it's away from long time supports of battletech.

[Lorcan Nagle]

The problem with Monopoly is that it was originally designed to not be fun - it was meant to be an indictment of the concepts of real estate and renting, but it was sold to Parker Brothers by an opportunist who claimed he had invented it and omitted the moralistic elements.  They also bought the original version and released it, but it was not as popular as the Monopoly branding.

So if you don't enjoy playing the game?  Well, that's the point.

[Orin J.]

the unrelated discusssion of how awful monopoly is side, i have to consider AToW a failure simply because it was impossible for me to get new players "hooked" with it- i blame most of this on the way the material is presented but there's a lot of stuff that's just complicated for its own sake or abbreviated because it "looks clean". which rapidly saps all the interest out of new players, having a crusty vet on-hand for motivation shouldn't be required of a game.

If they are new, it has no advantage. Rolling any dice in an RPG format will be new to them, so no need to stick to a limiting, poor scaling 2d6 system

in my experience, sticking to 2D6 has the HUGE advantage that people with no RPG experience will both have them in their home and understand how to read them off without questions. they can buy the book and nothing else, and then just take the dice from monopoly to play.

it also lets them work with a fairly familiar and easy to understand probability curve, which is probably something.

[Thorvidar]

As for Mechwarrior: Destiny
It suffers from the same issues that a lot of RPG including shadowrun 6th ED have these days.
Catchphrasitus: Simplified, streamlined, easy to learn, faster, storytelling.
The problem here is that these terms tend to only appeal to part-time, casual-gamer's
The type that will give you a quick first book sales high, but never provide a sold sales base going forward.

Please keep it to Battletech, Shadowrun 6e is its own thing. I know you have Beef with CGL with what they are doing with Shadowrun, keep it to those forums. Thank You.

You like AToW. Thats fine, the issue is getting people to play. People can't get through the character creation. The Cue system is not perfect, but I bet that you get more players with it then you would if you went with AToW revision. ( admittedly you re do the character creation you solve a major issue and also the confusing layout of the book.)

 I am willing to wait for the Beta to come out and playtest that, giving back feedback for the Devs to make it better. Am I going to be happy with everything in the system, no....

[Daryk]

And those of us who like AToW will keep working to make it better too.  I just don't want to see AToW tossed on the scrap heap of history like 2nd edition.

[Robroy]

And those of us who like AToW will keep working to make it better too.  I just don't want to see AToW tossed on the scrap heap of history like 2nd edition.

100% agree.

[DarkSpade]

I am willing to wait for the Beta to come out and playtest that, giving back feedback for the Devs to make it better. Am I going to be happy with everything in the system, no....

Isn't the expected release December of this year?  If that's the case, I can't see feed back from the beta going very far unless someone finds something completely out of wack.

[General308]

I am kind of looking forward to something not overly complicated to play with my son

[Thorvidar]

And those of us who like AToW will keep working to make it better too.  I just don't want to see AToW tossed on the scrap heap of history like 2nd edition.

Same, I would like to see AtoW 2nd ed to be priority based system if they could. Point based systems tend to get people to look another way. I do like the Life mods though, its just that a point based system like I said makes people nervous. I dont know if you could link the two creation methods.

[Daryk]

As implemented, 2nd edition had point-based aspects too, just a layer down from the priorities.  I think the way AToW did it was a bit more straight forward in that respect.  The modules are really one of the system's strengths, I think.

[dgorsman]

Isn't the expected release December of this year?  If that's the case, I can't see feed back from the beta going very far unless someone finds something completely out of wack.

BETA testing isn't development.  It's to have fresh eyes on it to see if something obvious was overlooked.  I see this in software BETAs as well; people sign up expecting to be like a project manager, directing where the program goes, then are disappointed/angry when all of their suggestions are "ignored".