Author Topic: MechWarrior: Destiny  (Read 132297 times)

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #450 on: 22 September 2019, 07:40:25 »
Holy cats!  Scorpion Tanks are the new Savannah Masters (page 165 refers)... They move 4 (as fast as any hover tanks and the Locust), have an AC/5 (a long range weapon, which is inescapable as I noted above), and retain the Machine Gun too.  Their armor isn't bad, either.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #451 on: 22 September 2019, 09:06:55 »
I submitted the Scorpion as a typo.  We'll see how that goes...

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #452 on: 22 September 2019, 09:07:36 »
Well, I'm certainly glad that this thread has come to the conclusion that the many tabletop games in the marketplace that rely on a cooperative PC-GM relationship aren't really campaign games and just won't ever work consistently. I'll have to notify my group that we've just been playing at imaginary Cons, and not really campaigns; for good measure I should go back and edit the roll20 logs of some of the games we've played to add more zaniness from player to player.  :D Y'all are getting kind of strangely funny about this.

You're wargamers at heart, and you're interpreting roleplaying through that lens. Making extremely broad statements about how it's only natural for players and game masters to be at each other's throats is all a bit silly, isn't it? Generalizing your own experience to an entire, ultra-broad hobby isn't a really... useful way to go about things, I wouldn't think. Now, you can certainly make the argument, as some in this thread has, that placing a game like this into a fanbase that has been brought up on tabletop games that encourage that sort of black and white adversarial relationship is a strange decision, but in my eyes it's pretty clearly to give people who are interested in the setting a foothold into it without having to go through a 90s-heritage spreadsheet RPG or having to learn an 80s-heritage somewhat kludgy (as much as I love it) tabletop ruleset in all its occasionally bizarre permutations. And I'm more than a little baffled at some of the hostility to the idea of giving another group of people a gentler way into something we here theoretically love.

This seems to be your go to defensive stand on this.
But structure has nothing to do with it being a wargame or not.
An established structure is a literary term as old as the spoken word.
Universal structure is the difference between a well developed story and "The Last Jedi"
Player 1 turn: Sets up the path to becoming a Jedi, how space travel works. (Requires training)
Player 2 turn: Introduces the Main NPC characters and there personalities.
Player 3 turn: Sets up the ending narrative and the begin of a new story.
Player 4 turn: Changes how you become a Jedi (now you just have to know you are and can use the force)
Player 5 turn: Changes the personalities of the Main NPC characters.
Player 6 turn: Now you can use your ship as a weapon and it requires gas.

The point is Hollywood is in the mess it is right now because of loose stroytelling like this game allows.
Have you ever hear the old sangs "Too many cooks in the kitchen" or "Too may chiefs not enough Indians"

Having played for so long I have seen systems fads like this come and go all the time "diceless games anyone"
When I worked in my friends gaming story and I got to go to the Alliance retail conventions, I got to see all the new ideas coming down the pipes.
And the one constant was these indie type (modern) games would get a good quick following then 1-2 year(s) down the road the trend wold pass and we maybe sold one expansion book per year if it didn't just vanish from the Alliance catalog.
The only systems that seem to weather it all are the traditional system.

Again play was you like, if you can make it work as a campaign then more power to you.
The majority of tables I have been to (and that's a lot over multiple states and countries) can't make this work as anything other then a one-shot.
« Last Edit: 22 September 2019, 09:09:15 by victor_shaw »

Arthinas

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #453 on: 22 September 2019, 09:42:15 »
My reading of the situation is that this is intended to be a very rules light game, given that BT/TW is the opposite I have to wonder at the logic of that decission.

Beyond that reading through the sample characters I've spotted things that don't give me much hope, many core skills seem to be absent: Detective Work, Fixing, Intrusion, Medicine, Social Engineering, Technology, and Transportation. The last might be covered under the rules light thing, but the others are kind-of important.

Take Darice Garzi, she's a spy for the MoC who's cover is a Courtesan, she has Intimidation, but no ability to get information out of people using her feminine charms, she has an Advanced Security Bypass Kit, but no skill to actually use it or generally otherwise get past security systems, nor does she have the ability to pull plans off of computers (rules light may offer an out, but probably shouldn't for computer hacking). No medical skills, no way to suss out who she needs to bribe/seduce or get equipment.

Detective Work: Investigation
Fixing: Technician
Intrusion: Depends on your approach, could be any one of several skills
Medicine: MedTech
Social Engineering: Depends on your approach, can include Acting, Intimidation, Protocol, Disguise, Negotiation
Technology: Technician
Transportation: Piloting

The skill descriptions pretty much cover almost everything, the only thing I see missing is something that's explicitly related to picking locks. Electronic locks are covered by Computers, mechanical locks are another thing.

Fear Factory

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #454 on: 22 September 2019, 09:59:20 »
I'll take vagueness over excessive bookkeeping.
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victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #455 on: 22 September 2019, 10:01:49 »
I'll take vagueness over excessive bookkeeping.

Each to their own.

Dexion

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #456 on: 22 September 2019, 10:04:34 »
At the same time,  the vast majority of your existing players (CBT, AS, AToW) are likely Wargamers at heart.  I'm going to have a really hard time selling my group to playtest a system that doesn't even have solid rules for something as basic as how many wounds are healed when using a First-aid kit vs. a Trauma pack.

Systems like FATE attract a certain type of players, and my experience has been those are not often the players interested in Battletech style settings.  You're asking players used to a dramatically different style of gameplay to test something many of them are going to actively dislike.

Naritive systems are fine, but some things need defined rules more than others.  Currently,  for example, Grenades have no rules for the size of the blast, catching allies in the area of effect, or really any potential downside.  I can toss a Grenade into the middle of a melee, select the three (not 100% sure on the numbers here) Thugs knifing my buddy as the targets, and declare during my Naration that he's blown clean of the blast unharmed after being shielded from the Shrapnel by Thug 2's body.

A few things that might help, off the top of my head, are some more detailed equipment listings with rules (medical gear, support weapons, Explosives).

Another thing that might be helpful is some form of Margin of Success / Failure.  Perhaps an optional rule that allows non-attack rolls that Miss by 2 to result in "Marginal Results", that have the desired effect, but with a downside (for example, you successfully bypassed the lock, but triggered an alarm in the process).

The Mech-Scale combat rules actually seem like the strongest part on first reading.  The range bands could even by substituted with Adjacent/Short/Medium/Long from Alpha Strike with movement multiplied by 4" for a nice Miniatures rules to.  That's more "Crunchy" than AS but faster playing that AGoAC.


Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #457 on: 22 September 2019, 10:09:57 »
I recommend you look at those mech-scale rules again.  There's no "Out of Range", which means units with Long range weapons are inescapable.  If they're fast too, they win, since they can keep the range open.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #458 on: 22 September 2019, 10:13:27 »
The Mech-Scale combat rules actually seem like the strongest part on first reading.  The range bands could even by substituted with Adjacent/Short/Medium/Long from Alpha Strike with movement multiplied by 4" for a nice Miniatures rules to.  That's more "Crunchy" than AS but faster playing that AGoAC.

This seems to be the only thing from this game that everyone can agree on.
I personal think the armor and maybe the weapon stats would make great optional rules for AS proper.

Asgo

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #459 on: 22 September 2019, 10:13:42 »
...
The skill descriptions pretty much cover almost everything, the only thing I see missing is something that's explicitly related to picking locks. Electronic locks are covered by Computers, mechanical locks are another thing.
I would go with a situational approach for lock picking.
Technician if it involves analyzing the mechanics of the lock
Escape Artist if it specifically is related to escaping
Athletics if it is a brute force approach.
(perhaps stealth if you try to be not obvious about it (it already has the relation to pickpocketing))

ActionButler

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #460 on: 22 September 2019, 10:19:57 »
I'll take vagueness over excessive bookkeeping.

100% agree
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Ursus Maior

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #461 on: 22 September 2019, 10:21:02 »
BTW is this a 3025 era or a Clan era game? I am not sure why the Clan equipment is there if the game is set in 3025
Actually, I tripped over this as well. I love the fact that this game wants to primarily support 3025, but also cater to 3050. But at 40 pages, The Clans is not really an appendix any more, not if the book itself has 240 pages in total.

Now, again, I love both ideas. I love the idea of a rules light system and I love that a complete setting, its rules and character creation have only totalled up to 240 pages, but I get the slight notion, this book doesn't really know what it wants to be. After all, the 3025 fluff, character creation rules and Warriors's Catalog mount up to no a lot more than these 40 pages The Clans get.

Now, I see two options here. Either MWD sticks to the Kickstarter and brands itself a game of the Clan Invasion era, possibly giving options of creating characters during the preceding decades, or it cuts down on The Clans somewhat and keeps the rest of the stuff for the separate Clan sourcebook.

That's just a first impression, though. Not sure if it will hold up, once I studied and discussed it further.
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Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #462 on: 22 September 2019, 10:23:02 »
I'll take vagueness over excessive bookkeeping.
Conveniently, the definition of "excessive" is vague...

Ursus Maior

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #463 on: 22 September 2019, 10:27:04 »
It's 3025-*focused* with some Clan rules for Invasion games. Notably there's not really rules for IS level 2 stuff, though it wouldn't be hard to patch that in given all the examples of weapons and gear we already have.
Yeah, that was the idea, but as I already wrote, The Clans get almost as much fluff and special rules as the 3025 factions.

Now, this might not be for everybody, but why not shorten the MWD rule book and produce short add-ons as high quality sofcovers for The Invading Clans, The Homeworld Clans, IS 3050, The Star League etc. I think, 50 pages would be enough and these softcovers - meeting quality standards of the new AGoAC rule book, would be easy to produce, but still look good.
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Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #464 on: 22 September 2019, 10:31:26 »
I think the minimum print run might be an obstacle to that strategy.  Hardcopy is expensive.  It could totally work with pdfs, though.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #465 on: 22 September 2019, 10:50:31 »
Did anyone else notice that Branth's have an INT of 6, and Nolan's a 7?? ???

Ursus Maior

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #466 on: 22 September 2019, 10:54:15 »
There are many "Traditional GM" rules that can be switched on to cut out player capability to edit the story entirely. This is a good thing. I can basically run Mechwarrior 2nd Ed with better rules and an abstracted combat system if I want.
It's good of you to point that out. I get a lot of MW2 vibes off of MWD, which is good in my opinion. I actually was thinking about heavily house ruling MW2 and MWC for a new campaign. If MWD holds up and enables me to play non-Warrior games as well, I might switch to it, before cracking my head open on house rule mathematics for MW2.
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victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #467 on: 22 September 2019, 11:09:39 »
It's good of you to point that out. I get a lot of MW2 vibes off of MWD, which is good in my opinion. I actually was thinking about heavily house ruling MW2 and MWC for a new campaign. If MWD holds up and enables me to play non-Warrior games as well, I might switch to it, before cracking my head open on house rule mathematics for MW2.

Here's a site that may help.
https://sites.google.com/site/mechwarrior2ed/home

Dahmin_Toran

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #468 on: 22 September 2019, 11:16:04 »
As an avid RPGer not a wargamer, I like a lot of what I see in Mechwarrior Destiny.  The basic ruleset is fast, simple, easy to teach/learn, and very flexible. I like that as a GM. You don't need a plethora of tables or modifiers to remember.

The two largest concerns about the new system (other than fears of it being a Shadowrun Anarchy clone) was Character Creation and backward compatibility. Character creation is pretty quick and easy. I don't need a complex spreadsheet. And although not directly compatible, the system is simple and flexible enough I can extrapolate and import Skills, Traits, Equipment, Life Paths from any previous edition with little ease.

The section on Narrative Gameplay I take as a suggestion myself. I've been doing stuff like that myself for years anyway. And despite other naysayers, narrative games are trending in modern/indie games.

The Mech-scale combat is a breath of fresh air and one of the best rules that Battletech RPGs have offered. It is not overly complex like earlier version and I can see myself incorporating it onto a Battletech mapsheet with some minis.

I have already submitted quite a few suggestions into the feedback page on the Kickstarter. If you want to improve the game, you should too.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #469 on: 22 September 2019, 11:23:05 »
Here's a site that may help.
https://sites.google.com/site/mechwarrior2ed/home
Interesting!  I especially like the author's "Background Package Option".  It looks a lot like an extremely simplified version of AToW's Life Module system (and I don't mean that in a bad way).

Fear Factory

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #470 on: 22 September 2019, 11:37:57 »
Conveniently, the definition of "excessive" is vague...

1 - Tracking a ton of equipment that, in all honesty, should be assumed on-hand
2 - A character creation life path system that is so detailed it drives people away, in a system that is inherently deadly, so you have to do it all over again

Destiny (again) reinvents the wheel, but it looks like it's on the path to be something unique that fits BattleTech well. I'm hoping I can get a group together to try it out.

EDIT: I'm leaving suggestions up to the RPG guys, but my hope is that 'mech combat can also be used on a mapsheet as a halfway between Alpha Strike and A Game of Armored Combat. Just so the focus is on the characters, but it's detailed just enough where 'Mechs are an extension on them. This might be the case, but I am terrible at reading PDF's over paper.
« Last Edit: 22 September 2019, 11:43:32 by Fear Factory »
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
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Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #471 on: 22 September 2019, 11:44:58 »
1- Some equipment is appropriately tracked that way, some is not (compare a ton of rations to say, a C3 Slave unit).

2- AToW could be cleaned up a bit, but a spreadsheet takes care of that problem for me.  Honestly, increasing investment in a character is not a bad thing.  How much attachment did you have to any Traveler character you ever made, where death DURING character creation was quite common?

Dahmin_Toran

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #472 on: 22 September 2019, 11:54:07 »
1 - Tracking a ton of equipment that, in all honesty, should be assumed on-hand
2 - A character creation life path system that is so detailed it drives people away, in a system that is inherently deadly, so you have to do it all over again

Destiny (again) reinvents the wheel, but it looks like it's on the path to be something unique that fits BattleTech well. I'm hoping I can get a group together to try it out.

EDIT: I'm leaving suggestions up to the RPG guys, but my hope is that 'mech combat can also be used on a mapsheet as a halfway between Alpha Strike and A Game of Armored Combat. Just so the focus is on the characters, but it's detailed just enough where 'Mechs are an extension on them. This might be the case, but I am terrible at reading PDF's over paper.

Agree with Points 1 and 2. Even though I don't mind, a spreadsheet should not be necessary for gameplay. I mentioned earlier it looks like you could run this on a map in conjuction with CBT/Alpha Strike rules pretty easy.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #473 on: 22 September 2019, 11:55:01 »
1 - Tracking a ton of equipment that, in all honesty, should be assumed on-hand
2 - A character creation life path system that is so detailed it drives people away, in a system that is inherently deadly, so you have to do it all over again

Destiny (again) reinvents the wheel, but it looks like it's on the path to be something unique that fits BattleTech well. I'm hoping I can get a group together to try it out.

1. Completely disagree with you here, this line of thinking was one of my issues with Starwars FFG.
This is just an excuse to not have to think ahead or investigate during the adventure.
Example:
GM: you come to a path full of poison gas, maybe you should have listened to that guy that said he had info on the crypt.
Player:(spends destiny point) Nope, got a gas mask out of my butt.

2. The life-path has been discussed to death at this point, even people who like the game admit that it needs work, and will probably get it after the Destiny beta according to CGL.

"Destiny (again) reinvents the wheel, but it looks like it's on the path to be something unique that fits BattleTech well. I'm hoping I can get a group together to try it out."

I have to totally disagree with you on this one, I look at it as just the opposite of Battletch.
Now I happy that you like it and it's your style of game, and I even hope we get some new players out of it (doubt it, but hope).
But I don't really see it bringing in a lot of new players to the core of the licence the Battletech Boardgame. As most of these new players will be on the opposite end of the spectrum for the Battletech Boardgame in play style.
So it will sit like everything else as a side product fighting for the leftover resources, and this is the issues I have with creating a new RPG game instead of fixing the one you already have and have said you are going to continue to support.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #474 on: 22 September 2019, 12:05:51 »
Victor_Shaw has the right of the "fits BattleTech well" issue.  It may have started as a beer and pretzels game, but it's definitely more of a war game now.  And honestly, neither "beer and pretzels" nor "wargame" fits this more narrative style, at least in my opinion.

monbvol

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #475 on: 22 September 2019, 12:11:14 »
Also I feel it fair to point out that a spreadsheet isn't strictly necessary for AToW.  It really depends on how organized you are as an individual.

Especially if you use point buy instead of module.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #476 on: 22 September 2019, 12:13:00 »
True, it can totally be done by hand.  Though I'll add BiggRigg's videos demonstrate the level of effort required for that.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #477 on: 22 September 2019, 12:13:36 »
Also I feel it fair to point out that a spreadsheet isn't strictly necessary for AToW.  It really depends on how organized you are as an individual.

Especially if you use point buy instead of module.

Any chance of you updating you spreadsheet by the way. ;D
Love that thing.

pixelgeek

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #478 on: 22 September 2019, 12:31:21 »
GM: you come to a path full of poison gas, maybe you should have listened to that guy that said he had info on the crypt.
Player:(spends destiny point) Nope, got a gas mask out of my butt.

If the GM wants a gas filled path to be a barrier then it is a barrier regardless of what the players do. In your example if the GM does indeed allow the player to spend a Destiny point then perhaps the decision point for the players was to spend those points or to go back for gear? You GM the game and the mechanics that you have not the ones from a different system :-)

I get that some of you want a crunchier system with lots of details but this system clearly isn't intended to be that so complaining that it isn't really isn't going to get you anywhere since I doubt that CGL will change the system. Especially since it appears that AToW is that crunchy system.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #479 on: 22 September 2019, 12:42:10 »
If the GM wants a gas filled path to be a barrier then it is a barrier regardless of what the players do. In your example if the GM does indeed allow the player to spend a Destiny point then perhaps the decision point for the players was to spend those points or to go back for gear? You GM the game and the mechanics that you have not the ones from a different system :-)

I get that some of you want a crunchier system with lots of details but this system clearly isn't intended to be that so complaining that it isn't really isn't going to get you anywhere since I doubt that CGL will change the system. Especially since it appears that AToW is that crunchy system.

You seemed to have missed my point.
I was the GM and the rule don't really give me the option to say no, they are pretty clear if it is at all possible for then to have it I have to allow it.
So no hyperdrive out of you butt but a gas mask is fine.
Anyway the point was that the players had every opportunity to find out about the gas trap and others in the crypt if they had just paid the 50 credits and talked to the NPC, but they ignored him and ran off to the planet.
And the game allowed then to half-@$$ it with a destiny point.


As to the second part, it has never been about making the game for me, I already told CGL I was not going to waste their time trying to make the game fit my style.
It's about MW:D being thought off as a gateway to the BTU when it is so far removed as to bring in a group of people that will most likely not be interested in the rest of the line.