Aurigan Reach- now that the game is out

[Werewolf]

Can someone point me to the KF Boom / Docking Collar rule that specifically states piggyback riding of secondary hulls is not allowed? Where do I find it? Because, from a strictly physical point of view, a powered-down Leopard (which is to be assumed as events in the game hint at some time needed to ready it up for pirate deterrence) simply becomes part of the mass attached to the collar between Argo and JumpShip. Pretty much like you weigh more on bathroom scales with clothes on than naked. The scales wont be able to tell which part of the weight it measures comes from clothes.

[kato]

Ex, since i have it open right now: Interstellar Operations p121, writeup on Primitive Large Aerospace Craft which explicitly states that a dropship/-shuttle not using either a KF Boom or a DS Bay can only be "transported as dismantled cargo".

By SO cargo movement rules dumping those 1800 tons of disassembled Leopard cargo into space through a single exit unassisted and without modifiers point takes approximately 4 months. Assembling it another 6-7 months maximum i guess.

[Vehrec]

I still say that if the custom jump chaining system has a weight limit that is lower than it's own weight, you've solved most of the practical problems here.  If it costs 5000 tons to bring a 2000 ton dropship along for the ride...well why bother, other than to move large groups of Leopards around quickly?

In any case, it's weird for a dropship in a lot of ways, with it's 4/6 movement curve making it the fastest dropship of it's size, and it's 57,000 ton stock cargo capacity being quite large for that speed.  Most of that cargo space is retrofitted for various mercenary-supporting functions, but between the 26000 ton engine and the 57000 tons of cargo, there's 'only' 17,000 tons left for everything else, including the 3.5 RPM grav deck, unknown amount of fuel, 1200 tons of required SI, 750 tons controls, plus minimal armor and weapons...hey, you know, you could probably squeeze in 10,000 tons of docking collar related chicanery.  Only just, but it could be done.

[Colt Ward]

I am not sure it has many guns mounted since you need the Leopard to drive away the space-bourne pirates.  But yeah, your suggestion is a good way to get it to fit . . .
 . . . not that the topic was meant to be about getting in the Argo rules-wise.

By the game's story, does it hold true to Canopian, Capellan, Taurian and merc community lore?  I found the remarks about the possible FedSun vs Taurian border tension to be accuarte- even the merc's jokes about how the typical Taurian reacted to Davions.

[klarg1]

Or the docking collars are limited to very low-mass dropships, think 1800 - exact for the upgraded Leopard variant that eventually appears.

This seems like one of the easiest solutions to me - limit total mass per collar, and make it legal. No daisy-chaining allowed, because two Leopards (or whatever) would add up to more than the allowable limit.

[Talen5000]

Now that HBS interpretation of battletech is out and has been played for . . . 3 weeks?  Some folks have completed the campaign while going on to sandbox, others are still working through it, and some people have barely started it since they went sandbox instead.  We now know the the campaign storyline about a succession crisis in a struggling periphery state with references to the Great Houses and periphery powers (is a start date included?  I must have missed it), the Leopard and Argos have been put into action (Argos does not land nor does it jump- both at the same time were early fears), and for funsies the campaign includes the 3025 classic- a Star League cache! (have not gotten that far)

So, how do people feel about the campaign fitting into the canon timeline/events?

ditto Argo?

Don't mind them becoming canon....or not...but would personally prefer that any canon entity be altered to address canonicity concerns....e.g. to have the Reach relocated to a place where its lack of interaction with the main story and players isn't so weird.

[Talen5000]

Also, I don't really see what's so game breaking about the Argo. can someone fill me in?

Its a 100,000 yon DropShip that

1...has a grav deck
2...has its own docking collars
3...allows for daisy chaining of the KF field

Stuff that's easily fixed.

[Colt Ward]

What lack of interaction?  Nearly all the SBs I am aware of are made from a IS/Great House perspective/bias . . . which means the histories and synopsis we read are from that perspective.  It also afaik has not been tied to exact dates, so the FS-TC border tension discussion is valid for nearly any time.  But IMO the Reach's civil war plugs in well to the timeframe of the 4SW since all the attention would be focused on that paradigm shattering event.  Who is going to notice that some marginal periphery state failed while the CapCon is losing half its territory?  Honestly, its like asking why US or European history books do not cover the Third Indochina War- the books are dealing with the Regan-Carter race, Cold War and Iran hostage situation IIRC.  Heck, most US citizens (going to say 90% easily) cannot even tell you if those two countries have gone to war and especially when.  And that is a single example I can name more.

In addition you can even say the reason the MoC & TC fostered the New Colony Region was because they lost the buffer state of the Reach between the two Periphery powers.

[Horseman]

I still say that if the custom jump chaining system has a weight limit that is lower than it's own weight, you've solved most of the practical problems here.  If it costs 5000 tons to bring a 2000 ton dropship along for the ride...well why bother, other than to move large groups of Leopards around quickly?

In any case, it's weird for a dropship in a lot of ways, with it's 4/6 movement curve making it the fastest dropship of it's size, and it's 57,000 ton stock cargo capacity being quite large for that speed.  Most of that cargo space is retrofitted for various mercenary-supporting functions, but between the 26000 ton engine and the 57000 tons of cargo, there's 'only' 17,000 tons left for everything else, including the 3.5 RPM grav deck, unknown amount of fuel, 1200 tons of required SI, 750 tons controls, plus minimal armor and weapons...hey, you know, you could probably squeeze in 10,000 tons of docking collar related chicanery.  Only just, but it could be done.

The Argo is at the very maximum of carryable DropShip mass. As suggested by Kato, the "subunits" in the form of Leopards would probably count against the Argo's total mass. If it can dock two of them, that's 3800 tons less.

Come to think of it, the non-standard folding grav deck system probably takes up more tonnage than a conventional one.

Further, the multiple docking collar system hasn't entered widespread use for a reason. Either it wasn't cost-effective to build (and maintain), unreliable in some fashion or required design considerations that made it impractical.

[Colt Ward]

I am not sure it was taking up 2 collars, I just think the design covered the 2nd collar on that . . . Star Lord?  Because all of the jumpships have different layouts on where the collars are located- and so do the warships it might have ridden on during the SL era.

[Alexander Knight]

Simple rule on the daisy-chain.  It hijacks one of the Jumpship's docking collars when you connect a Leopard to the Argo.

Example:  The Argo and its docked Leopard connect to an Invader.  Only one other Dropship can then dock to the Invader for a safe Jump.

[Giovanni Blasini]

You know, that could work pretty well.

[guardiandashi]

Simple rule on the daisy-chain.  It hijacks one of the Jumpship's docking collars when you connect a Leopard to the Argo.

Example:  The Argo and its docked Leopard connect to an Invader.  Only one other Dropship can then dock to the Invader for a safe Jump.

My thought was to make it kind of like having reinforced unpressurized repair bays and a docking collar if you have that combination, then you can get additional Dropships,  carried through a jump, as long as you stay under the mass (collar) limit.

I would use this "house rule" as an example of a technological thing that the star league figured out that was lost, it also explains the poetemkin as with something like an Argo (or a series of them) functioning as a combination fleet carrier, and salvage/recovery transport.

Ie you CAN transport a broken dropship or jumpship but you have to have a better understanding of jump physics and field extension, and interactions than any current power (other than possibly the belters) have, because you have to model the jump field pretty accurately.

[Talen5000]

What lack of interaction?

They are a power situated right between the TC and MoC and bordering the CC.

But they don't appear on any maps and aren't mentioned in any histories. But they are strong enough to survive the predations of a Great House at a time when raids to ensure such powers didn't become major threats were the norm. These are written as having significant industry and power, but ComStar did not see fit to even menton them.

The Aurigan Reach lasted 150 years or so, and was a strong multi world nation that bordered a Great House and two Major Periphery Nations, all of whom engaged in conflict....and there is not one mention of it.

Sometimes the lack of information is the canon that needs to be upheld. Moving the Reach somewhere else avoids the need to come up with all sorts of complicated explanations as to why they were let be.

[omega2010]

I am not sure it has many guns mounted since you need the Leopard to drive away the space-bourne pirates.  But yeah, your suggestion is a good way to get it to fit . . .
 . . . not that the topic was meant to be about getting in the Argo rules-wise.

By the game's story, does it hold true to Canopian, Capellan, Taurian and merc community lore?  I found the remarks about the possible FedSun vs Taurian border tension to be accuarte- even the merc's jokes about how the typical Taurian reacted to Davions.

Kamea Arano is being helped in her war by an Ana Maria Centrella (who represents the Magistracy in the game).  I'm guessing HBS intend her to be an extended relative of Kyalla (the Magestrix in 3025).  However I wish they did use Kyalla for the lore connection (plus Kyalla is kind of a footnote in the lore).

There's actually a fair amount of lore references.  At one point in my game Yang (the MechTech) found a box of frozen Triple-F burgers in a supply container.  Let's just say you want to let Yang and his team eat the burgers...

[Colt Ward]

They are a power situated right between the TC and MoC and bordering the CC.

But they don't appear on any maps and aren't mentioned in any histories. But they are strong enough to survive the predations of a Great House at a time when raids to ensure such powers didn't become major threats were the norm. These are written as having significant industry and power, but ComStar did not see fit to even menton them.

The Aurigan Reach lasted 150 years or so, and was a strong multi world nation that bordered a Great House and two Major Periphery Nations, all of whom engaged in conflict....and there is not one mention of it.

Sometimes the lack of information is the canon that needs to be upheld. Moving the Reach somewhere else avoids the need to come up with all sorts of complicated explanations as to why they were let be.

And like I said, in the history books there is no mention of a war one of our major trading partners engaged in with a former enemy less than a decade after we fought that enemy.  Its not complicated, its as simple as 'they were insignificant to the House' in the overall scheme.

We can try rattling off a string of periphery nations that did not appear on the maps, IIRC the Marian Hegemony did not appear on ComStar maps until well after they were founded.  The Rim Collection is not on maps dating to when the book came out.  IIRC the New Colonies Region was not always displayed on maps when it was a thing.  Its not new territory per se.

[Androsynth]

I'd agree on making this game canon. For starters, it's great. It does a WAY better job telling a compelling story than any of the old classic BT games do. It gives me the exact feel that all the old novels and core books used to, that there's this huge, Dune-esque politically complex futuristic mess of worlds, empires, conflicts and lost secrets fought over with mechs that feel more like WWII tanks than Gundam. It's great. The Aurigan Reach is well done too, the whole thing feels very lived in. Definitely made by people who loved the source material, just like the Shadowrun games were. Only this is WAY better.

In terms of the Argo... I kind of took it as some kind of failed prototype that crashed. Like a compact jumpship/dropship hybrid that wrecked on it's first outing. So far as I've played, there is a lot of jawing among the crew about 'we don't really know what it does yet'. We're *using* it like a dropship... but I don't think it really breaks canon. It's a failed one-off, like so many experimental mechs have been.

[Nav_Alpha]

And like I said, in the history books there is no mention of a war one of our major trading partners engaged in with a former enemy less than a decade after we fought that enemy.  Its not complicated, its as simple as 'they were insignificant to the House' in the overall scheme.

We can try rattling off a string of periphery nations that did not appear on the maps, IIRC the Marian Hegemony did not appear on ComStar maps until well after they were founded.  The Rim Collection is not on maps dating to when the book came out.  IIRC the New Colonies Region was not always displayed on maps when it was a thing.  Its not new territory per se.

The whole game could easily be canonised with one line describing how the half wild bit of space between the Taurians and MoC briefly thrived before descending into barbarism at the tail end of the 3rd Sucession War, partially due to natural decline and partially thanks to the intervention of those two powers.

Brief mention and that's it - the game is focused on the big events, not the small battalion-sized conflict, minor border raids, pirates and half barbarian worlds clubing each other to death in the far flung periphery

[Daryk]

*snip*
pirates and half barbarian worlds clubbing each other to death in the far flung periphery

I love that image... nice work!  :thumbsup:

[Nav_Alpha]

I love that image... nice work!  :thumbsup:

Ever seen a pirate clubbing? It’s horrinle... glow sticks, Lycra, jogging the dance floor... it’s horrible...

So, in my personal head canon - the whole game has to start earlier than 3025, right?
I mean, you spend three years in the wilderness before the game even really kicks off - pushing it to, what? 3028? Then you spend three or four years going through the game.
I like to think that the “theee years later” plot line brings you to like 3020/21 and then he campaign brings you up to that 3028 spot.
I know the geme’s Timeframe doesn’t exactly gell with canon years, etc but...

[Androsynth]

Ever seen a pirate clubbing? It’s horrinle... glow sticks, Lycra, jogging the dance floor... it’s horrible...

So, in my personal head canon - the whole game has to start earlier than 3025, right?
I mean, you spend three years in the wilderness before the game even really kicks off - pushing it to, what? 3028? Then you spend three or four years going through the game.
I like to think that the “theee years later” plot line brings you to like 3020/21 and then he campaign brings you up to that 3028 spot.
I know the geme’s Timeframe doesn’t exactly gell with canon years, etc but...

I'm rusty from years of being away, but yeah, I put it around then. Feels like just past the original BT era setting-wise. A couple of the mechs were not in the original TRO I started with, but not a lot.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I was thinking the rise of the Directorate happens '22-'26 which means you start 3 years later . . . depending on when you say you want to start it, the little periphery brushfire war news gets drowned out by 4SW.  Which is interesting since that makes the main character into his/her 50s when the Clans roll in.

Anyone know when the FS/TC massacre they talk about happens?

[Nav_Alpha]

I did a Sarna search and couldn’t find anything. I don’t think it’s canon - at least not yet

[Sandslice]

Ever seen a pirate clubbing? It’s horrinle... glow sticks, Lycra, jogging the dance floor... it’s horrible...

So, in my personal head canon - the whole game has to start earlier than 3025, right?
I mean, you spend three years in the wilderness before the game even really kicks off - pushing it to, what? 3028? Then you spend three or four years going through the game.
I like to think that the “theee years later” plot line brings you to like 3020/21 and then he campaign brings you up to that 3028 spot.
I know the geme’s Timeframe doesn’t exactly gell with canon years, etc but...

I think it's the case that the "three years later" plot line - which is most of the game, with Coronation Day being a prelude - starts some time in 3025; and there are at least two points of evidence in the game for this.

1.  High Lord Tamati Arano II's tooltip has him dying in 3022, and the dialogue in the tutorial has Mastiff describing the funeral has having just happened (implicitly within days, hence the urgency in getting Kamea crowned as High Lady.) 
2.  The tooltip for the Succession Wars explicitly states that the current year is 3025.

As for the Perdition massacre, it's something that is (so far) invented for this game.  I can't say more without  spoilers; but news of it reaches you fairly early into the Restoration war.

[Colt Ward]

Ah, I was hoping to check those pop-ups in my med mech restart.  I will admit they say the first High Lady Arano founded the Reach in 2910, and we know they existed for a bit over 100 years at the point of the game so . . .

[Colt Ward]

So . . . I am thinking of taking the survivors of my 1st campaign and trying to make a merc company from them . . .

Which means they awkwardly have some better mechs than they should . . . the Atlas II did not quite match the canon ones- seemed a sort of hybrid of the AS7-D and the old K model.  The Royal Highlander would have a problem with FF armor, and I think they might sell those Artemis IV systems to a House or company- after all how much ammo could they get?  Gauss Ammo would be easier to get since you just need a machine shop with a Lathe- should be part of your techs' kit in the first place.

They might also be heavier than expected . . . I kept the assault count down but after you take Victoria out (how did I not get the King Crab?  I was careful to kill her with its legs & CT intact??) but still end up with the Atlas II, Royal Highlander, Stalker, Victor and Battlemaster out (Highlander P was in storage) with a Orion 1-K, MAD-Orion, Catapult C1, Black Knight, and Grasshopper sitting in bays.  I did the collector thing so I have other heavies, mediums and lights in storage.  I try to drop around 300t, need to go up so I can see other Atlas, Zeus, and Awesome which I have not seen.  But such a skewing of weight was just not done in the 4SW?

Finally . . . what to do about the dropship?  I thought about a Dictator which would have the capacity (and more) which could stick to the 'old crashed ship' motif . . . perhaps even a unique Dictator, something that was a abandoned testbed that crashed.  I was figuring anything but the Overlord, Union, or Fortress.  In place of the Leopard, I really want to go DRoST IIa for fun- maybe gunship version!  Could be fun to plop them into the Andurien conflict since my mercs were lazy and took over four years to free the Reach (which would be a realistic rate really . . . if it was not for the faster HBS transit).

[guardiandashi]

I'll be honest I always figured the smart thing for a lostech discoverer to do would be to "cautiously" approach someone either a house, or major manufacturer with some of the goodies they recovered and "sell" them the working equipment, with the contract reading that they get a certain amount of cash up front, and that if the house/manufacturer manages to successfully reverse engineer the materials enough to start making them, that you get to buy a "reasonable" number of production models for helping them out.

lets say, you recovered say 20-30 DHS that's realistically enough to outfit 1 unit, with maybe a few spares for repairs. you give a company 5-10 of them for 60-100k ish, and get a contract that if they manage to successfully start production you are effectively on their preferred buyers list (priority to complete your order) for ~100 ish DHS at whatever the market (or slightly lower) rate