What data can be gathered off slavaged electronics?

[Greatclub]

The guy who used to do the task has moved on
The only guy trained to do the task is, how to put this politely...
The task is sensitive, difficult or dangerous enough that nobody is allowed to touch it without a ton of paperwork, so nobody else has a clue.

Seen it, if not the military version.

[Colt Ward]

No . . . it happens quite a bit.  Usually the guy 'trained' to do it is rote trained . . . give them a problem and the results can be funny as long as no one's life is on the line.

After all, officers are all supposed to be 'managers' of one sort or another.  The way to be a successful manager is to find the 3 or 4 people who know how to do things and get them to run faster.  It gets especially awkward when you get sent to 'fix' a section (or at least get them to pass the eval) and have to work around someone who outranks you (he's been told to do what you say when it comes to X, just be civil about it).

[Sartris]

No . . . it happens quite a bit.  Usually the guy 'trained' to do it is rote trained . . . give them a problem and the results can be funny as long as no one's life is on the line.

virtually all of my experience with IT  xp

[Kovax]

Getting anything useful from captured electronics depends on how much the enemy is doing to prevent the capture of information.  Terabytes of data can be wiped in milliseconds, if the system is triggered to safeguard it in case of capture or defeat, and you can't get back the 1s and 0s from memory once the data is gone, even if old-fashioned magnetic media can still be read with some reliability after being erased and overwritten.  I would assume that "punching out" would automatically trigger such safeguard protocols, and wipe anything in memory that could be of use to the enemy.  If recovered, new data could easily be uploaded by whoever gets to it first, after bypassing any security systems (and studying that would only tell the enemy about that particular 'Mech's security system, with almost every one intentionally unique in some manner known by its pilot and normal tech crew).

In the Succession Wars, almost everyone is using the same Star League designed hardware, just in varying proportions, so you're not going to learn all that much that you don't already know from capturing the hardware, aside from clues about the enemy's manufacturing and logistical capabilities, based on the state of repairs and quality of replacement parts being used.

[Ursus Maior]

Okay, I've been pondering this for a long time, but a lot of this question revolves around a simple stance on how the BTU came to be: Do we assume that the BTU has run through a technologically similar development than our universe did in the late 20th and early 21st century? Or do we believe it happened differently? I mean, 1970s and early 1980s computer tech - and what game writers new about it in the 1990s - was seriously ****** to what we now know and can do. Plus, certain developments could have gone completely different: more centralized computer systems, less advanced microchips, physically diffrent storage media (magnet tapes well into the Age of War, anyone?).

The choice/flavor/canon on this pretty much dictates, wath salvaged equipment could render as information.

[Daryk]

In defense of the real world, Moore's Law was well known by the mid-80's.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Okay, I've been pondering this for a long time, but a lot of this question revolves around a simple stance on how the BTU came to be: Do we assume that the BTU has run through a technologically similar development than our universe did in the late 20th and early 21st century? Or do we believe it happened differently? I mean, 1970s and early 1980s computer tech - and what game writers new about it in the 1990s - was seriously ****** to what we now know and can do. Plus, certain developments could have gone completely different: more centralized computer systems, less advanced microchips, physically diffrent storage media (magnet tapes well into the Age of War, anyone?).

The choice/flavor/canon on this pretty much dictates, wath salvaged equipment could render as information.

It depends, does anybody still envision the BTU as the 1980s in the far future or a reflection of known and theoretical technologies? They have things that weren't in the 1980s, such as operating fusion power and commonplace holovids; 30 years ago, some people may be fine with Clan omnimechs using Cathode Ray Tubes for displays but my own vision of Clan technology is the inside of an omnimech cockpit as a virtual reality environment, with dozens of micro-camera feeds allowing for a 360 degree aspect, where the pilot literally floated in the air, able to see everything surrounding his omni; He would wear gloves linked to his controls, so that he could target and fire his weapons merely by pointing a finger and making a programmed gesture or vocal command. Star League tech would be similar, but not as immersive; 3025 tech would be wrap-around, panoramic, touch LCD screens.

  Automatic destruction of stored data is a two-edged sword. Would a 'Mech's Black Box be destroyed, because it may contain classified data, such as transmissions? As a long-time user of Active Probes, the material contained in my 'Mech's database (literally from centuries of battles) is beyond value, and I wouldn't care who got their hands on any of it, even an enemy, as long as it was saved.
  Data encryption could add hours to deciphering, rendering time-sensitive data useless after expiration. The use of obscure languages would also make deciphering data a time-consuming task. My first BT character was an Azami, a descendant of North Africans who immigrated into space. After some research, and using information from BT source books, I could outline the Azami culture and languages. The region was conquered by Arabs, Turks and the French, but also had their own native language, Amazighen (Free People), which has begun to reemerge in the last century. The Amazigh alphabet, called Tifanagh, dates back over 4,000 years, and is based on the alphabet of the ancient Phoenicians.
  Decipher this, then translate it from one of a dozen dialects:

[Greatclub]

I'm somewhere in between.

a while back (Six odd months?) there was an extended discussion here about satellites, and how you had to be an utter incompetent to not have a full array over every operation. Yup, that's the modern situation. Yup, it's reflected in the current ruleset.

It sure as hell isn't reflected in 'wolves on the border.' The sats that the dragoons had were a sign of their sheer sophistication and how well equipped they are. Kurita Sword of Light regiments didn't have the same capability, and they're the bloody GOVERNMENT SHOWPIECE.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I'm somewhere in between.

a while back (Six odd months?) there was an extended discussion here about satellites, and how you had to be an utter incompetent to not have a full array over every operation. Yup, that's the modern situation. Yup, it's reflected in the current ruleset.

It sure as hell isn't reflected in 'wolves on the border.' The sats that the dragoons had were a sign of their sheer sophistication and how well equipped they are.

  Agreed. Every new campaign, players learned to have a comm section dedicated to place unit sats in orbit prior to operations and recover them afterwards. This was a standard "Hammer's Slammers" operation.

[Greatclub]

Yet the lore, especially the early lore, does not support widespread satellite use well into the clan invasion or civil war era.

So running sats commonly is an altered universe. this isn't the only point it happens in, just an easy one to point out.

[Daryk]

Any game is an "altered universe", by definition...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Yet the lore, especially the early lore, does not support widespread satellite use well into the clan invasion or civil war era.

So running sats commonly is an altered universe. this isn't the only point it happens in, just an easy one to point out.

  The Lore had BT go from "Mad Max" to "not being able to swing a cat without hitting a fresh off the assembly line 'Mech" in about a generation... If the current rules have satellite use, would they apply to earlier eras?
 
That's like the first time my GM told me: "You can't use combined arms tactics."
Me: "Yes, I can, just because combined arms isn't standard doctrine, doesn't prevent me from utilizing MY units as I decide."
GM: "Nobody has ever trained in combined arms tactics."
Me: "Fine, my units will not use combined arms tactics -We will utilize radio communications to coordinate pre-planned maneuver, movement and targeting that coincidentally includes infantry, artillery, vehicles, air assets, and battlemechs."

[Daryk]

Heh... score one for you!  :thumbsup:

[Greatclub]

  The Lore had BT go from "Mad Max" to "not being able to swing a cat without hitting a fresh off the assembly line 'Mech" in about a generation... If the current rules have satellite use, would they apply to earlier eras?
 
That's like the first time my GM told me: "You can't use combined arms tactics."
Me: "Yes, I can, just because combined arms isn't standard doctrine, doesn't prevent me from utilizing MY units as I decide."
GM: "Nobody has ever trained in combined arms tactics."
Me: "Fine, my units will not use combined arms tactics -We will utilize radio communications to coordinate pre-planned maneuver, movement and targeting that coincidentally includes infantry, artillery, vehicles, air assets, and battlemechs."

That would be out of character for a lot of the DCMS. Standard tactics for a Fedsuns RCT at any point during or after 2SW, though, as early as the first house book.

[Daryk]

There were "maverick" units even in the DCMS, and the Azami definitely counted as one of those...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Heh... score one for you!  :thumbsup:

  Combined arms tactics aren't all elaborate Operation Overlord undertakings, they are as simple as using infantry and mortars. The idea of combined arms is to disrupt the enemy by forcing them to defend against one asset while dropping their defense against another. The concept isn't new at all:

  Philip II of Macedon greatly improved upon the limited combined arms tactics of the Greek city-states and combined the newly created Macedonian phalanx with heavy cavalry and other forces. The phalanx would hold the opposing line in place, until the heavy cavalry could smash and break the enemy line by achieving local superiority.

  The army of the Han Dynasty is also an example, fielding mêlée infantry, crossbowmen, and cavalry (ranging from horse archers to heavy lancers).

  Civilizations such as the Carthaginians and Sassanids also were known to have fielded a combination of infantry supported by powerful cavalry.

  While I could see the near obsessive reliance on battlemechs being dominant in the BTU, low-scale warfare would be far more frequent than large battles requiring 'mechs.

 

[Iceweb]

I wonder how much delay you could buy with obscure languages. 
One of the main sci-fi staples is the universal translator.  Battletech never really stated that it has such a thing, but it never seems to run into language barrier issues.  Given the sheer amount of languages around expert systems for translating just make common sense. 
Applying such a tool to any language barrier that seeked to hide the data via changing the language seems like it would break it very quickly vs actual data encryption techniques.   

Do we know how close Battletech is to universal translators?

[nerd]

Considering the nature of Inner Sphere computers, I'd be OK with a futuristic Google Translate/Babblefish type computer application. Teaching a computer to understand and translate natural languages isn't hard, as it's all sets of rules.

Of course, this gives you options for humor and mistranslation issues, like the Stealth Spectors in TRO 3058U where the Capellans used an obscure form of Chinese, or just "My hovercraft is full of eels!"

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

That would be out of character for a lot of the DCMS. Standard tactics for a Fedsuns RCT at any point during or after 2SW, though, as early as the first house book.

  That's the absurdity of the premise. If a unit has no 'mechs, are the infantry and vehicles forbidden to coordinate?
   "The infantry can advance but don't use their attached tanks or mortars, because we haven't figured that part out yet."
 
  I had one GM who would stop a tabletop and tell players that the they aren't following House doctrine by coordinating air strikes. He literally would not allow the ground forces to contact the aero, but he let the aero select their own targets, even if they might hit friendly vehicles. Personally, I don't role play battles, I fight them using my own knowledge so if the rest of the universe is stupid, that isn't my problem. So if I using modern infantry tactics in a dungeon, it's because I'm not an idiot.

[Ursus Maior]

Yet the lore, especially the early lore, does not support widespread satellite use well into the clan invasion or civil war era.

So running sats commonly is an altered universe. this isn't the only point it happens in, just an easy one to point out.

And that is what I was talking about. Maybe (yes, maybe!) Moore's Law was popular knowledge in the 1980s, but I doubt that. I completely refuse to believe that FASA authors were fully aware and had understood the idea of AirLand Battle, including the implications of early NAVSTAR / GPS technology. Really, it doesn't even show in the 1990s books. All in all, FASA authors do not seem to be as much into things military as were other authors aof wargames such as Mark Miller (Traveller) or the authors of Victory Games, SSI or GDW. That's not a bad thing, BTU began as a feudal mecha soap opera in space. And we love it for that, but the downside also was that when it changed to combined arms warfare, interplanetary theaters of war and Hightech Mongols, some narratives aged less well or become just plane silly.

[Ursus Maior]

It depends, does anybody still envision the BTU as the 1980s in the far future or a reflection of known and theoretical technologies?

I could go with that, especially for a cineastic 3025 MechWarrior: Destiny beer and pretzel RPG campaign. But for a more immersive game, I'd much rather stick with:

They have things that weren't in the 1980s, such as operating fusion power and commonplace holovids; 30 years ago, some people may be fine with Clan omnimechs using Cathode Ray Tubes for displays but my own vision of Clan technology is the inside of an omnimech cockpit as a virtual reality environment, with dozens of micro-camera feeds allowing for a 360 degree aspect, where the pilot literally floated in the air, able to see everything surrounding his omni; He would wear gloves linked to his controls, so that he could target and fire his weapons merely by pointing a finger and making a programmed gesture or vocal command. Star League tech would be similar, but not as immersive; 3025 tech would be wrap-around, panoramic, touch LCD screens.

Yes, so much yes! If we imagine the BTU as an extraploation of our current technological capabilities (and let's face it, in 30 years that's gonna be obsolete as well), than this is what my mind pictures. But:

Automatic destruction of stored data is a two-edged sword. Would a 'Mech's Black Box be destroyed, because it may contain classified data, such as transmissions? As a long-time user of Active Probes, the material contained in my 'Mech's database (literally from centuries of battles) is beyond value, and I wouldn't care who got their hands on any of it, even an enemy, as long as it was saved.

This is no problem really. In a world that uses 21st century technology that could advance another 1,000 years (or at least 750 years and then slowly recover), your database would not be centuries old. Yes, your probe might have collected data for centuries, but your data would be uploaded into your unit's cloud (or at least data core) after each mission. The military intelligence detachment in your unit would analyse all data, aggregate an updated tactical, operational and strategic picture off of it and update its database. From that database, you would receive a new copy prior to your next mission. You wouldn't be allowed to keep the old data for operational security reasons and also because your storage would be limited to an amount suffcient for prolonged mission plus a margin for on-mission updates.

Also, if you don't swipe your memory banks, you might encounter glitches after some time, rendering your precious probe more of a hazard than a help. In fact, this might have been exactly what happened during the Succession Wars. When technicians, military intelligence detachments and spare parts became rarer, units decided to run their probes as long as they could. In the meantime, they don't synchronize individual probes and intelligence databases, making them incompatible in the long run. After some point, individual probes produce glitches, cannot log into higher-echelon command circuits and at some point become virtually useless, until they get switched off for internal security reasons. Plus, of course, the combat unit might get damaged and salvaged by opposing forces, who lack proper maintenance possibilities as well and lost their technicians and intelligence troops certified for Beagle probes as well, so the whole thing becomes completely uselesse and gets switched out for a small laser and a heat sink.  :P

[Ursus Maior]

Personally, I don't role play battles, I fight them using my own knowledge so if the rest of the universe is stupid, that isn't my problem. So if I using modern infantry tactics in a dungeon, it's because I'm not an idiot.

And rightly so. Even the dumbest MechCommander in 3025 new that he had to plan a raid on planet X around getting the dropper to make it into orbit and drop him at least close enough on target to accomplish his mission. That includes proper handling of naval assets (JumpShip, DropShip), orbital insertion, coordination with ASF and training his MechWarriors in the use of droppods. That's a pretty high standard of combined arms already. It's just not combining 'Mechs, infantry and conventional vehicles. But that's another matter entirely.

In defense, combined arms in 3025 isn't much different. You need to know when to put your ASF of conventional fighters into the air, then coordinate your 'Mechs and not screw up logistics.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

And rightly so. Even the dumbest MechCommander in 3025 new that he had to plan a raid on planet X around getting the dropper to make it into orbit and drop him at least close enough on target to accomplish his mission.

  Exactly. Landing dropships under combat conditions is establishing a vertical beachhead. Dropships plus ASF is combined arms. Defending ASF can ignore the escorts and expect higher casualties or use combined arms tactics, allocate the heavier ASF to attacking  the dropships while the more maneuverable ASF contends with keeping the enemy ASF at bay.

  I recall playing Clan Ghost Bear and executing a massive landing operation against determined Drac defenders. The GM asked me to plan out the landing and I said: "Fighter Sweep." His jaw dropped, because he was an historical war gamer. It was Operation Overlord and I had more than enough ASF to overwhelm the defender. Anything not in the air died on the ground, including their brittle conventionals. Subsequently, my landings were unopposed and my ASF enjoyed complete air superiority during the campaign.

[Kovax]

Considering how close air and ground cooperation was already a thing during WWII on both sides, and that combined arms was already becoming the norm by the end of WWI (using artillery and advancing with tanks to force a breakthrough for the infantry in WWI - as opposed to using the infantry and artillery to force a breakthrough for the armor and motorized/mechanized units to exploit in WWII), it's not like it had to be developed from scratch.  It just needed to have the Battlemech incorporated into it.  The Star League had several centuries to figure that out, and the Successor States certainly wouldn't have forgotten something that was in continuous use.

[Asgo]

I wonder how much delay you could buy with obscure languages. 
One of the main sci-fi staples is the universal translator.  Battletech never really stated that it has such a thing, but it never seems to run into language barrier issues.  Given the sheer amount of languages around expert systems for translating just make common sense. 
Applying such a tool to any language barrier that seeked to hide the data via changing the language seems like it would break it very quickly vs actual data encryption techniques.   

Do we know how close Battletech is to universal translators?

don't know the language situation in the BT universe, but if you do run it through a language processing step, do it right or you end up with something like this:

there is always space for xkcd. :)

[guardiandashi]

I think I am going to throw in my 2 cents on the data archives.

there is a lot of the older fiction that I remember explicitly talked about the units having decades and hundreds of years of data in their warbooks. and units that did not have that being at a noticeable disadvantage.

with that said I am going to suggest that most units have what amounts to 3 levels of "memory" level 1 is active working memory think of it as ram and similar, this obviously does get saved to level 2 memory on a regular basis but it also typically gets flushed on a regular basis.

level 2 memory is roughly equivalent to flash ssd, or hard drive storage today, its slower to access but holds hundreds and or thousands of times as much info as level 1 memory, this is where if you aren't careful about your backup and wipe protocols you could end up with lots of "old data" being archived that is relatively easy to recover that could seriously compromise certain aspects of security.

level 3 storage is the long term archive backups this in battletech is supposed to be crystal drivs optical minidisks battlerom archives and similar.  this stuff is specifically designed to have what's stored on it be non volatile ie having it be hard to loose.  from an operational stand point the good news is many times the data is either encrypted or at least the access to it is, additionally some units likely would have "dummy" drives and similar that contain information intended to fool people if captured.

[Ursus Maior]

level 2 memory is roughly equivalent to flash ssd, or hard drive storage today, its slower to access but holds hundreds and or thousands of times as much info as level 1 memory, this is where if you aren't careful about your backup and wipe protocols you could end up with lots of "old data" being archived that is relatively easy to recover that could seriously compromise certain aspects of security.

And do you see this being a thing in tanks and 'Mechs or only in DropShips and other larger "units". Or did you mean "unit" as in e. g. "mercenary company"?

level 3 storage is the long term archive backups this in battletech is supposed to be crystal drivs optical minidisks battlerom archives and similar.  this stuff is specifically designed to have what's stored on it be non volatile ie having it be hard to loose.  from an operational stand point the good news is many times the data is either encrypted or at least the access to it is, additionally some units likely would have "dummy" drives and similar that contain information intended to fool people if captured.

I'm not certain these dummy drives are a thing, at least not today in tanks etc. It's just a waste of space in an otherwise optimized system. And it's easily spotted, e. g. once you captured a tank or even only one of these devices, you won't be fooled again.

[Frabby]

Regarding the "combined arms" discussion, I don't think the reason combined arms were not a thing has anything to do with "we didn't figure that part out yet". Rather, as of the early BT setting (3025) BattleMechs are king to the point where they are the only consideration. Tanks and other support units were probably simply disregarded.

It is also often forgotten that the late Succession Wars period was light on bloodshed because their battles had devolved into maneuvering exercises, with neither side prepared to actually draw fire to their priceless 'Mechs. There's a quote somewhere saying many battles in the era didn't see a shot fired. (In that respect, the late SW Inner Sphere had their own ritualized set of combat rules that was closer to Clan zellbrigen than many seem to realize.) In this context, again, it seems effective combat tactics weren't utilized because it was all about getting your 'Mechs to the target area and the enemy would concede.

[guardiandashi]

And do you see this being a thing in tanks and 'Mechs or only in DropShips and other larger "units". Or did you mean "unit" as in e. g. "mercenary company"?I'm not certain these dummy drives are a thing, at least not today in tanks etc. It's just a waste of space in an otherwise optimized system. And it's easily spotted, e. g. once you captured a tank or even only one of these devices, you won't be fooled again.

no I said exactly what I meant,
to use the example of a Laio raven, or a still working battlemech from the star league that has been in operation for over 300 years.

part of the issue is unlike modern combat units that are in a lot of ways relatively simple and straightforward, and in most cases fairly uniform, IE if you have 10 m1A1 Abrams tanks, they should all be pretty uniform in their major systems, in battletech Especially when a unit is over 100 years old and has been repaired numerous times by multiple techs with variable access to the proper parts, possibly in the hands of owner/operators you can take uniform and seriously chuck it out the window to use an example that phoenix hawk likely more or less corresponds to one of the major variants ie if its a pxh-1 it will most likely have a large laser, 2 medium lasers, and 2 machine guns but beyond that ... one might have a Magna, or exostar or some other manufacturers large laser, and who knows if the medium lasers or machine guns are even from the same manufacturer let alone the original stock ones.  At that point how are you even going to realize that that sd card sized drive jacked into the lower leg actuator is a "ghost" backup drive and not an actuator firmware module that was installed 40 years ago because some glitch was causing the actuator to dump its firmware code at random intervals, oh wait its still doing that and it does have the actuators code on it, it just happens that the Targeting and Tracking computer is also backing up its warbook data to an encrypted partition that is labeled as something else, and that's assuming your tech even happens to notice that the black and red module isn't stock on the 2769 production year of this particular model out of the factory that made it.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

It is also often forgotten that the late Succession Wars period was light on bloodshed because their battles had devolved into maneuvering exercises, with neither side prepared to actually draw fire to their priceless 'Mechs. There's a quote somewhere saying many battles in the era didn't see a shot fired. (In that respect, the late SW Inner Sphere had their own ritualized set of combat rules that was closer to Clan zellbrigen than many seem to realize.) In this context, again, it seems effective combat tactics weren't utilized because it was all about getting your 'Mechs to the target area and the enemy would concede.

  That also describes the Age of War with the Ares Convention in effect:

Though the HAF had less combat experience than the Federated Suns forces, its troops proved to be skilled at this near bloodless sport and finally pushed the Davion forces off Kentares.

Source book: The Star League (FASA 1630).

  You  also have to remember, BT rules have changed A LOT. Vehicles and infantry were once useless against 'Mechs; Now, the Clan Invasion would have been stopped dead, long before Tukayyid.
  My fiction about the Battle of Luthien through the eyes of a Clan Nova Cat mechwarrior was based in playing OPFOR in another campaign. My own unit fought in the battle over 10 years ago, and rules have changed to where my Elementals that entered a town were not wading through Kurita infantry platoons with ease -They were getting mauled and destroyed by clouds of VLAWS from dug-in militia, to the point I had to pull back and level buildings with Arrow IV missiles, or I wouldn't have ANY Elementals by the time I reached reached Luthien city. Fortunately, the Jags were routed by the Dragoons and Kell Hounds before they reached the city, and my Trinary was called to cover the retreat.