Author Topic: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?  (Read 864 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26164
  • Need a hand?
Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« on: 27 May 2024, 17:57:22 »
Had this random thought pop up.  The CGR-1A1 was an attempt to make an assault class mech for recon purposes.  Are there any assault mechs that you'd classify as a trooper mech?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37911
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #1 on: 27 May 2024, 18:01:41 »
Not that it's great at it, but I think the Zeus was meant for that...

Dave Talley

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3616
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #2 on: 27 May 2024, 18:16:44 »
I would list most of the 80 tonners there,
Victor is just an 80 ton hunchie
Various charger/challenger variants are the same
A couple slow ones in there, challenger and awesome are there but they are troopers of a sort,
beamers of course
The 4/6 guys almost all qualify
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”

Because while the other Great Houses of the Star League thought they were playing chess, House Cameron was playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker the entire time.
JA Baker

Giovanni Blasini

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7277
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #3 on: 27 May 2024, 18:17:51 »
The Thug and the Hatamoto both also qualify.  I'd argue the BattleMaster probably does as well.
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes / When the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
-- Gordon Lightfoot, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26164
  • Need a hand?
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #4 on: 27 May 2024, 18:46:19 »
The Beamer is a command mech, don't think it works as a trooper.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Dapper Apples

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 261
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #5 on: 27 May 2024, 19:13:59 »
Assaults pay a pretty penny to go 4/6, is the issue.  Any of the 80-85 tonners that end up as fat heavy mechs could be seen as a "trooper".

Starfury

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 825
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #6 on: 27 May 2024, 19:18:59 »
The Beamer is a command mech, don't think it works as a trooper.

It does as the timelinr goes on, especially for Marik.

Other trooper assault Mechs

The Striker
The Crockett
The Highlander
The Warhammer IIC
The Kingfisher
The Banshee 3S and follow up variants
The Blood Kite
The Stalker
The Mad Cat Mk II
The Hauptmann
The Sirroco
The Grand Titan
The Lu Wei Bing
The Titan
The Akuma
The Archangel
The Vanquisher
The Grand Crusader
The Rifleman II

Giovanni Blasini

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7277
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #7 on: 27 May 2024, 22:23:41 »
See, I'd argue most of those are "assault" assault 'Mechs, rather than troopers, thanks to being 3/5, rather than 4/6/4.  They're not going to be able to keep pace with the quintessential trooper mediums and heavies like the Hunchback, Centurion, Thunderbolt, Warhammer, etc.
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes / When the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
-- Gordon Lightfoot, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1793
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #8 on: 28 May 2024, 00:38:07 »
The 80 ton 4/6 series are great heavy troopers.  The Thug is the premium heavy trooper assault, and the Hatamoto copies it for good reason.  The Zeus likewise is a great heavy trooper.  The victor is not a trooper with that AC20, but the gauss version id argue is a trooper.

The clans are faster by default, but the gargoyle is the top tier trooper mech for clans.  In BV games, you get that 5/8 speed and over 200 armor, on a platform that doesnt cost much BV.  In terms of value, the gargoyle is cheaper then a thug, and faster, but with a tad less armor.  In terms of weapons, both share the paired SRM6s, but the gargoyle has the 2 LB5x for anti vee/air, and the ER small laser for up close, so while the gargoyle has 5 less max damage then the Thug, the lack of minimum range from the PPCs means up close (kicking range), the Gargoyle usually outdamages the Thug despite being cheaper.  Fantastic Trooper assault.

Finally, the OG banshee is a great 'heavy' trooper.  The PPC+AC5 is good range punch for the era for that BV range, and the armor means you can stand the line for a good while.  The S banshees swap to juggernaut or sniper roles with their slower speed and heavier weapons.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26164
  • Need a hand?
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #9 on: 28 May 2024, 01:16:24 »
How do the Spartan and Charger 3K stand as trooper?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1862
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #10 on: 28 May 2024, 03:01:28 »
See, I'd argue most of those are "assault" assault 'Mechs, rather than troopers, thanks to being 3/5, rather than 4/6/4.  They're not going to be able to keep pace with the quintessential trooper mediums and heavies like the Hunchback, Centurion, Thunderbolt, Warhammer, etc.

Not just the speed will be a factor of the trooper. And actually, if you starting to made a trooper class then the speed of the others isn't really a factor at all - since it would be the mainline armor of the units among their rank, everyone else should keep pace with them rather than they needs to keep pace with the others.

Honestly, I'd think that if you really want a trooper then it needs to be cheap, so put a 3/5 mech on the lesser tonnage than 100 would gives you the better trooper, for it would be cheap and durable consider the cost at least.

------------------------

Well at least Spartan have somewhat lacking amount of armor and capable weapons. So it would, maybe? I wonder that Charger 3k does much, though, consider its pathetic armor points.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2024, 03:04:16 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2987
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #11 on: 28 May 2024, 03:03:58 »
The Jupiter with a Jump of 5 . With Improved Jump Jets and a partial wing it is theoretically possible to have a jump of 9 80 ton 5/8/9 . Not aware of any Canon Assaults with that movement profile . A Jump of 5 -7 is way more likly

« Last Edit: 28 May 2024, 03:06:11 by Col Toda »

Giovanni Blasini

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7277
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2024, 03:28:47 »
Not just the speed will be a factor of the trooper. And actually, if you starting to made a trooper class then the speed of the others isn't really a factor at all - since it would be the mainline armor of the units among their rank, everyone else should keep pace with them rather than they needs to keep pace with the others.

Honestly, I'd think that if you really want a trooper then it needs to be cheap, so put a 3/5 mech on the lesser tonnage than 100 would gives you the better trooper, for it would be cheap and durable consider the cost at least.

If you're going to argue that a Highlander or a Stalker is a trooper as a 3/5 assault 'Mech, then the Atlas is a trooper 'Mech by the same token, at which point the term becomes essentially meaningless.  After all, an Atlas is essentially a Highlander that trades jump jets for heat sinks and a little more armor.

Traditionally, a "trooper" has been used to describe, for the Inner Sphere at least, a 4/6 general-purpose medium or heavy 'Mech.  Thugs and BattleMasters can be extensions of that, since the only difference between the 75/80/85 tonner at that point is maximum armor.  A 3/5 'Mech gets used differently.
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes / When the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
-- Gordon Lightfoot, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

Elmoth

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3437
  • Periphery fanboy
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2024, 03:42:17 »
Trooper assault is anything that moves 4/6, can take a beating and has enough firepower to go toe to toe with heavies and lighter mechs, right? Quite a few qualify.

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2841
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2024, 09:03:03 »
 The Stalker is arguably the iconic trooper of assaults, being extremely common and a competent when not excellent in all brackets. Heavy Cavalry units were literally built around this mech during the Succession Wars. 

Charistoph

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3774
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2024, 10:46:26 »
The Stalker is arguably the iconic trooper of assaults, being extremely common and a competent when not excellent in all brackets. Heavy Cavalry units were literally built around this mech during the Succession Wars.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.  The Stalker is a juggernaut/line-breaker, not a trooper.  It's also too slow to be part of a Heavy Cavalry unit.  The Spartan maybe, but not the Stalker.

But I guess it revolves around what comes to mind when thinking of a "Trooper" 'Mech.  Some are saying one thing, some are saying another.  When I think of a "Trooper" 'Mech the first one that comes to mind is the Centurion.  Fast enough to operate strategically, but not fast enough to be used as cavalry.  Hits hard enough to not completely ignore, but not fire support.  It can take hits, but isn't such a complete brick wall that can hardly damage anything.

I'd agree with the Hatamato and Thug.  Zeus is a fire support 'Mech, more than a Trooper.  The Victor is with the Gauss Rifle or AC/10, but is too much of an ambusher with the AC/20.  The Gargoyle can work, depending on its configuration, but the Naga II is just far too fragile.  The Warhammer IIC definitely fits in most of its configurations, but the Warhawk and Marauder IIC are usually dedicated fire support units.  The Executioner could work, but it feels more cavalry than trooper.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1862
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #16 on: 28 May 2024, 11:06:49 »
If you're going to argue that a Highlander or a Stalker is a trooper as a 3/5 assault 'Mech, then the Atlas is a trooper 'Mech by the same token, at which point the term becomes essentially meaningless.  After all, an Atlas is essentially a Highlander that trades jump jets for heat sinks and a little more armor.

Traditionally, a "trooper" has been used to describe, for the Inner Sphere at least, a 4/6 general-purpose medium or heavy 'Mech.  Thugs and BattleMasters can be extensions of that, since the only difference between the 75/80/85 tonner at that point is maximum armor.  A 3/5 'Mech gets used differently.

Well, is a walk 4 mech an essential requirement for the term? I don't want to argue for this, but ask it because I don't know about that the (rough)definition does exists on the setting.

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2841
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #17 on: 28 May 2024, 11:42:54 »
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.  The Stalker is a juggernaut/line-breaker, not a trooper.  It's also too slow to be part of a Heavy Cavalry unit. 
Heavy Cavalry is a shock troop capacity. The mech has to be fast enough to provide it, but a 3/5 movement is just fine to be decisive in a Succession War environ so long as the mech can move consistently and bracket fire with it decisively. An Atlas would not qualify for this for a variety of reasons not the least of which is that it is not a threat except at short range. The role of heavy cavalry is to break the enemy.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2024, 12:47:07 by Minemech »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26164
  • Need a hand?
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #18 on: 28 May 2024, 15:02:56 »
Heavy Cavalry is a shock troop capacity. The mech has to be fast enough to provide it, but a 3/5 movement is just fine to be decisive in a Succession War environ so long as the mech can move consistently and bracket fire with it decisively. An Atlas would not qualify for this for a variety of reasons not the least of which is that it is not a threat except at short range. The role of heavy cavalry is to break the enemy.

The problem with allowing the 3/5 speed curve is that it's basically saying that every mech is now a potential trooper, since the Annihilator was the only assault mech that was slower than that and it was exclusive to Wolf's Dragoons.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Saint

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2680
  • Keeper of the Reaper
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #19 on: 28 May 2024, 17:22:52 »
I'll add the Rampage . Even the introtech version is solid.
"Our eyes lie on Glory, Honor, Strength. Burned worlds will declare our name as cause."


Starfury

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 825
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #20 on: 28 May 2024, 17:38:05 »
See, I'd argue most of those are "assault" assault 'Mechs, rather than troopers, thanks to being 3/5, rather than 4/6/4.  They're not going to be able to keep pace with the quintessential trooper mediums and heavies like the Hunchback, Centurion, Thunderbolt, Warhammer, etc.

The 3/5 units are behind by 1 hex, walk or run. That's not really an issue given BT engagement ranges. There
are also several 4/6 units equipped for a variety of options in this list, especially the later models of the Grand Crusader. Several units of the 3/5 have jump jets to help get over terrain, including having IJJs for 5 MPs. Tie them in with a C3 network and you have even less issue, especially if you're using ECCM/ECM rules.

Charistoph

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3774
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #21 on: 28 May 2024, 22:28:35 »
Heavy Cavalry is a shock troop capacity. The mech has to be fast enough to provide it, but a 3/5 movement is just fine to be decisive in a Succession War environ so long as the mech can move consistently and bracket fire with it decisively. An Atlas would not qualify for this for a variety of reasons not the least of which is that it is not a threat except at short range. The role of heavy cavalry is to break the enemy.

I'm sorry, but an Atlas and a Stalker isn't fast enough for being a shock troop unless you're literally dropping them on the target.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

GoGo Yubari

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 172
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #22 on: 29 May 2024, 04:41:56 »
The 3/5 units are behind by 1 hex, walk or run. That's not really an issue given BT engagement ranges. There
are also several 4/6 units equipped for a variety of options in this list, especially the later models of the Grand Crusader. Several units of the 3/5 have jump jets to help get over terrain, including having IJJs for 5 MPs. Tie them in with a C3 network and you have even less issue, especially if you're using ECCM/ECM rules.

It isn't entirely about in tactical combat speed though, but time to target (or away from target). Each point of difference is an additional ~10 km between parts of the unit in an hour when marching and that's pretty significant. Of course, the faster units can slow to accommodate their slower partners, but that's an hour and/or 10 km they could be trooper-ing around instead of covering their heavier brethren.

BattleMech Production 3025: thread  list
GoGo's MWO BATTLE ROMs: CBT MWO youtube

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2324
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #23 on: 29 May 2024, 06:04:09 »
Personally, I'd define the term "trooper" as a 'Mech that has:

1. A 4/6/X or 5/8/X movement curve.
2. A variety of weapons that can fight at all ranges
3. Is common to find within its faction

Using these criteria, we can see 'Mechs that are often called troopers fit all criteria.  The Vindicator for example is a Liao trooper 'Mech, and the Enforcer is a Davion trooper.  Heavy troopers might be include the Orion for House Marik.

Looking at the 3025 stable of assault 'Mechs, I'd say the Victor doesn't fit since it's limited to a 9 hex range.  The BattleMaster though would be a good choice, and a near-universal one as well since it was common as an assault 'Mech in all factions.  The Thug doesn't fit Number Three because it was comparatively rare, though the Zeus works for the Steiners.
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

MarauderD

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4050
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #24 on: 29 May 2024, 10:21:42 »
I'm sorry, but an Atlas and a Stalker isn't fast enough for being a shock troop unless you're literally dropping them on the target.

Agreed here.  I know we're debating semantics, but even Heavy Cavalry in BattleTech would be 5/8 or at least jump 4.  Thinking Grasshopper/Guillotine/Griffin/Wolverine types. 

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10434
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #25 on: 31 May 2024, 15:31:44 »
I think the Striker would fit pretty well in that role.
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Millard Fillmore's favorite BattleTech writer.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26164
  • Need a hand?
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #26 on: 31 May 2024, 20:17:09 »
I think the Striker would fit pretty well in that role.

Funny, I was just having the same idea.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Starfury

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 825
Re: Are there any "Trooper" assault mechs?
« Reply #27 on: 31 May 2024, 20:32:12 »
Ok if we're going 4/6


Striker
Thug
Hatamoto Chi
Charger 1A5 and 1A9
Victor 9K/D
Yu Huang
Kingfisher
Lu Wei Bing
Grand Titan
Battlemaster
Zeus
Warhammer IIC
Mad Cat Mk II
Sunder
Doloire
Templar
Templar III
Star Adder
Grand Crusader (some variants)

 

Register