Very disappointed with the new Kickstarter and the basic box.

[Infernowar]

Hello as a New Player in this franchise, i fall in love with it of course, but i want to say this is totally True a comment i read in the Kickstarter post about the Lore. I think in other games, like warhammer for example, and with the box of the game i receive a book with lore of the game. Ok, this is not Games workshop i dont expect a 300 pages hardcover. BUT, i pay 60€ for the box with a RIDICULOUS, i want repeat.... RIDICULOUS pamphlet with less than 2 pages of Text (like 10 pages but with a minimun text, and all images. And this ridiculous pamphlet is for free as pdf in the web. 

So with my new box i have no idea about what is Battletech, what is world, what is the technology, what is absolutly nothing.
But, the problems here for me as a new player are various.

-First, if i compare the previous box of the game, for the same price I would have received a more than 55 pages book, with the lore, houses, what is a mech, etc etc....
And i cant understand why all the people is super happy with the new bpx. Ok, the miniatures are awesome, but we are in 2019 we can not demand less, before the new box this company was offering in full 2019 miniatures of zero quality. And as a new player I get scared to see that in the beginer box I put a paper, telling me that if I want to expand my collection of figures of a game for which I paid € 20 can pay the ridiculous figure of € 180 (100 with the super offer, how lucky I am) $ 100 for 12 pieces of metal, with a prehistoric modeling, and poor quality. Only for $ 100 !!! Give me 4 packs please.

It's because of that quality jump in the figures that I do not see anyone complaining about the contents of this new box compared with the previous box but it is not fair that by neglecting the quality of the miniatures do not demand a minimum in other sections, as in putting a little lore as they offered in the previous box.

Being honest, if we compare the new box with the one of the previous edition, the new one can be said that it is a true deception.

For the same price € 60 in the previous edition we had:

-2 hard cardboard maps, not paper that gives panic touch it, the material quality of the maps is.

-25 mechs vs 8 of the new box. Yes! 25 !! Of worse quality that yes. But only with the box you have a huge variety. While cartons come in the new box.

-A book with the Lore of the universe of more than 55 pages of Lore, campaigns, factions, explanation of what are the mechs and their mechwsrrior and not a shameful pamphlet of 5 sheets as it brings now, that is above in free pdf in its Web.

-The Rulebook of 78 pages extends in more rules than the current one and with a lot more content, like several more scenarios, a section of armament well detailed with the description of which is each weapon (This is lore, as I will know what the hell is a PPC if I have to end up looking for it in google) etc ...

-A minibook with the explanation of how all the chaos of products and lines that these people have for the game works, since it is truly a chaos. And what they should do to attract new players is to cut the root of the 99 publications of the time of chromañon that they maintain, as well as having a web in full 2019. That the first time you enter the web makes you laugh .

- Another pamphlet of 16pag with the "Hobby" part of Battletech, on how to paint the figures, colors of the houses etc. In the new box there is NOTHING.

-The Quickstart rulebook, with the simplified rules, which now does not bring but sell it separately in the beginer box, pay more! .

-The sheets of mechs, come many more, with sheets also for infantry and vehicles.

-2 Tables of cardboard with the tables of the game to consult, 1 for you and another one for the rival, now only comes to you 1. By God it is a cardboard, that will not be worth 10cent

-1 Giant poster of the inner sphere of two faces.


The ridiculous Pampleth, and the Maps are for me the most disappointing.


Ok, I love the game and lore so I try to ignore it.

Now I find that the new content for the game, and the next step for me as a new player is seing how the company needs to do a Kickstarter, which probably takes 1 year to receive.
And I see that with the new box I will receive another pamphlet of 16 pages to tell me something as important and relevant as the game Clan invasions. That as a new player, anything you investigate mentions this part of the lore so important.

16 pages .....

So you can say that you are paying $ 50 for 5 figures, and the new regulation.

Because a pamphlet of 16 pages of lore, and a mini novel (that honestly gives me little, what I want is LORE, if I want to read a whole book I will look for it, not 20 pages that will leave me half of a universe that I want to learn) dont have value .

The worst thing is that I see that this company only makes reprints and reprints and reprints of material from 20 or 30 years ago, but when it comes to taking out a new box they are unable to put a small book with the lore that they also have Written from the previous edition of the box.

And of course it is expected that these two new maps, will be of that pathetic material that they use, for something that when given a little use will end up breaking. And if you do not like it, then spend $ 30 on a Neoprene one. I insist remember that in the previous box had some real quality board.

And to top it off it saddens me to see that for Alpha strike they are unable to put a letter for Mech, so they do not have to be turning them around, so be careful not to ruin the company by putting 4 more cartons.

And all this remembering that like all Kickstarter I am going to finance (with the risk that it entails) that they take out the products.


I'm sorry if I look angry, it really bothers me because I've fallen in love with the game, I think it's a Diamond in the rough, very badly managed by the company. And English is not my mother tongue and I needed a little Google translator.

Thanks for read me.
Love to Battletech !!!

[Sartris]

it should be noted that cgl lost money on the old box. it wasn't a sustainable business model

[Gigastrike]

I thought $60 was a great deal for what was included in the core set (judging off of what I felt each part was worth to me, not compared to other deals); and the new clan set isn't as good, but probably precisely appropriate.

Again, I have no idea what previous core sets have offered, bu I'm happy to spend this much on the new ones.

[jackpot4]

Really, if you want to break it down by price, the value is there.  For instance, you bring up the metal minis.  They sell for 12-15 bucks each.  If you apply that same cost to the minis in the box you are right there + the various pamphlets, maps, tables boards, etc.  In my eyes, I am buying the box for the minis.  As a long time player seeing the various prices, the value is there.  The map sheets aren't that bad either, they seem fairly sturdy for what they are. 

I can totally see where youre coming from that a new player would wonder why the number of mechs in the starter dropped so dramatically.  Unfortunately I cannot explain the exact reasons for the change but, the new aesthetic CGL is going with looks phenomenal.  (Thank Heavens its not MWO art)

[Maingunnery]

Also what many people don't know is that paper prices have gone up, which means that hard decisions have likely been made about what to include in the box.

[Sartris]

especially cardboard. it also doesn't help that the trio of hexpack expansions did not perform well enough to justify the cost

[Leftovernoodles]

2 hard cardboard maps, not paper that gives panic touch it, the material quality of the maps is.

Those cardboard maps were hot garbage.   They didn't lay flat and the plastic minis were not heavy enough to weigh them down.   They were nearly impossible to use with paper maps.   And their cardinal sin...   being far more fragile and prone to damage than the "paper" maps.

As for lore.   Sarna.net exists.   There is also a stupid amount of content from the last 30 years available from here. 

[SteelRaven]

The 4th edition only came with punch card standouts, no minis and was about the same price as the 3rd edition. And those minis where the same quality as the 25th Ann Box everyone complained was sub par.

And the contents of the new box was made know way before the release and is listed on the box and usually listed buy whoever is selling the box online so the contents should have come as no surprise. 

[Infernowar]

i have no problem to pay 50$ for the box and the 5 minis, but what bothers me most is that they cut out and skimp on the cheapest content to make, which are the pamphlets...
16 Lore pages are a joke.

As for sarna.net, as a new player that page is literally anti-user. The design of that page instantly removes the desire to find out about the lore that everyone says is so good, so it keeps me away from Battletech. Things should be attractive for new and old people, a page that looks like 1995 where I have to look for lore among tons of text and links is not a good idea to attract a player.

I'm not going to compare it with Games workshop, but you only have to see dozens of table games in a price range of 50-70 $ in which very detailed hard plastic figures are made better than Battletech new plastic figures, and many of them, not just 5 figures .

I am afraid of the cost of the lance box with 4 plasti figures. I hope no more than 30$, but i fear 40$.
And we can add the problem for the Europeans, tho find this products and with overcost

I will not get tired of saying it.  Battletech is a rough diamond very poorly managed.

[Ogra_Chief]

I will not get tired of saying it.  Battletech is a rough diamond very poorly managed.

Exactly how much lore would be appropriate, BT has 35 years of detailed and interconnected history that is breathtaking in scope upon closer examination. Where do you propose plopping a new player without throughly overwhelming them? Honestly a starter box should only have a brief overview and maybe a story relating to the time period.

I am of the mind that the powers that be are just now beginning the arduous process of presenting a viable product to new generations given the mammoth amount of material to present. I think they have done well as of late. The quality of product is much better than what the IP survived on for decades.

Battletech will get its breakthrough eventually. But baby steps and sound business decisions need to be clearly in focus for that to happen.

While your argument may have merit. It can always be argued that more value could have been had for what you paid. The cost is the cost.

[Fear Factory]

Well, the new Invasion Box is also just an expansion. If you look at it in context, it makes sense to have just a Star of OmniMechs, since the starter box has two lances. Star vs. 2 Lances is pretty balanced.

The plastic miniatures are also brand new and better quality that all of the previous runs. You may have gotten more, but they were not as good. Still, I'm glad I got the older miniatures because they make good playing pieces for friends who don't have miniatures.

If I could make only one critique about the Clan box... there should be a star of Elemental Battle Armor. THAT would make it well worth the money.

[StoneRhino]

There are some serious flaws in your post, which are showing up in facebook posts as well from other people.

First, the kickstarter is a kickstarter. It is not a pre-order. You are not purchasing a final product at the manufactuer's suggested retail price. "$50 for 5 mechs" is what people are thinking. That is flawed, it is not correct as it is a kickstarter meant to help fund the project instead of the Devs going to a bank to get a loan we are acting as the bank. There is no rule that any kickstarter needs to give you anything for your investment. The investment is to help make a project happen, not to buy goodies before others have them.

CGL has not announced the retail price of the boxed set. However, based upon the small starter box and the larger box that we have seen, and basing it upon the minis alone, we can suggest that the small box is $10 per mini while the large box is $7.5 per mini. If the price of the small box, per mini, was used the clan box would likely run $50. If we use the price of the large box per mini then it would be $7.5 x 5, which gives us a price of $37.50. The difference between the possible rates is $12.50, which if we split this difference to find a middle ground we would end up with $6.25. Adding that to the lowest possible price we end up with $43.75. If we round this up a bit we can say that the likely retail price of the clan box set will be $45.00. If we want to go further then we can look at a very great whole sale price of $22.50, which would be at 50% retail. Most retailers receive less generous discounts and will likely only get a 33% discount giving them a wholesale price of $30.15. This means that at retail the shops are only making a little under $15 per clan box.

It is likely that CGL is going to be paying and profiting a mere $11.50 per box. That profit is lowered after they pay for the development costs. Considering the size of the fanbase this box set is not going to make the CGL team millionaires anytime soon. With all that said, we are basically buying these kickstarter boxes at very favorable whole sale prices and putting in about $25 for the investment into the project. Of course that is flawed logic as we are investing $50 into the project, but we are being generously rewarded with a finished product at generous wholesale prices. Each box set that they give as a reward also diminishes the level of interest in the finished product that will be produced for the shelves of shops. I personally believe that the reward at the $50 level should just be the minis as it is the primary reason people will be investing. The difference in the rest of the box set that is saved would help pad the investment and hopefully offset some of the diminished interest in the final product once it hits the shelves. Of course this all goes far beyond the decision to complain about the investment ask to content rewarded.

You mentioned GW and their rules book. That's great, but it is not a fair comparison. Yes, you got a big "rules" book with fluff, but the fluff is not in depth. They save that in depth materials for the novels and the "you must buy these to even play the game" codexes. Those codex books are another $40+ and only let you play that particular faction. Even worse, you need to buy the updates to stay current. That is even more money. If you want to buy the rules book on it's own then you are looking at $50+tax. That may have a lot more information then what you get in the BT starter box, but it's cost alone is that of the BT box set! It is not a fair comparison.

Still going on about GW, their "intro" boxes are 2 forces. Sure there are a lot of minis in there, but they are worth very little in terms of gameplay. A guy at a game store once told me "you'll need at least one of these and 2 of these boxes, and that will barely give you a basic starting force". This was said over 20 years ago and is still true today. Their "starter" boxes are typically $150 and after the first box in the current edition there is no big rules book. I bought Death Masque for $150 near the end of 7th edition and all I got was a tiny..mini rules book the size of my phone. There wasn't much universal fluff in it. With the start of 8th edition they added the big rules book, which is likely a loss for them, but the other boxes since have had the pamphelts that you don't find acceptable, but in a box that is 3 times as much as the BT box. Worse still is that the minis do not add up to a force that you could jump into a game with established players with. Even with the "Start Collecting" boxes you will need at least 2 of those and your options are limited mostly to infantry and each box is nearly $100 each.

The mini count means nothing as it is not enough to game with. The BT box set has 8 minis, which is much less, but for most games that is more then enough minis to get into a game with established players. The difference is the level of detail of the game. A squad of battle armor or platoon of infantry fits onto a single hex, but for 40k you need far more minis to represent the same level of a force. I wish that there were more minis in the BT box set, but the minis are more then enough for games that many people cry about being to large, which is 10,000 BV2. With the variants that each mini has that gives you a rather large number of options for your force.

The paper maps are not as flimsy as you suggest that they are. Going back to the GW comparison, you are not given a single thing in their box sets. You are instead left to create your own terrain, which if you play at a shop is not a problem. I have seen people playing games at home and there is nothing but a table with some blocks or boxes as terrain. The great thing about the maps is that it gives you full terrain without being bulky. It is not 3D, obviously, but it is far better then a table or the floor and leaves you forced to find objects to create terrain. The maps in the previous boxset was nice, but limited due to cost. In the map packs that were produced at the time there was maybe 1 or 2 "sheets" worth of terrain for the price of 8 sheets in the current paper hexmap pack. I personally prefer the older style paper maps over the board game style maps due to the difference in quantity for the same price as it gives us more options in a game.

If one wants to look at board games the same $60 that was spent on the BT box could have netted you a game board and some tokens made of board. I have seen several games that leave me wondering where the value is as it is nothing more then monopoly style pieces and tokens.

[Fat Guy]

It is likely that CGL is going to be paying and profiting a mere $11.50 per box. That profit is lowered after they pay for the development costs.

And it's going to be lowered even more than that as long as there's a 25% tariff on anything they bring in from China. So far CGL has been eating that expense and not passing it on to the consumer.


And please avoid rule 4 and NOT get into a discussion on said tariffs.   C:-)

[Valkerie]

And both box sets do come with short stories.  Nothing fancy, but it does introduce you to a bit more of the lore.  And as others have said, with 35 years worth of stuff, how much and what do you include without breaking the bank?

[trboturtle]

And it's going to be lowered even more than that as long as there's a 25% tariff on anything they bring in from China. So far CGL has been eating that expense and not passing it on to the consumer.


And please avoid rule 4 and NOT get into a discussion on said tariffs.   C:-)

https://io9.gizmodo.com/trump-suspends-tariffs-on-board-games-and-toys-from-chi-1836019816

Craig

[Mindwiper]

Compare the CGL Boxed sets with the GW Kill Team boxes. This puts CGL prices in perspective as you don't need mor minis. They are in the same pricerange and even come with terrain and at least 4-5 minis in astonishing GW quality. But hey, they are GW and by this evil.

So let's look at CMON and song of Ice and Fire. Their addon boxes (like Night's Watch) are indeed more expensive (80$), but look at what's inside....

[KhanPhelanWard]

It's better no compare prices with GW :D

[Pat Payne]

Compare the CGL Boxed sets with the GW Kill Team boxes. This puts CGL prices in perspective as you don't need mor minis. They are in the same pricerange and even come with terrain and at least 4-5 minis in astonishing GW quality. But hey, they are GW and by this evil.

So let's look at CMON and song of Ice and Fire. Their addon boxes (like Night's Watch) are indeed more expensive (80$), but look at what's inside....

Still apples and oranges. CGL is, honestly, a scrappy little company doing the best they can with limited resources. And it's actually pretty damn good for what they have. GW is the gaming juggernaut, and whoever it was who could afford to snap up a GoT-related license (only one of the most popular shows on TV in recent memory) obviously has the teef to put in all the bells and whistles.

Let's face it. CGL tried to make a bells-and-whistles-laden box with the 25th Anniversary and the subsequent starter box. 26 plastic minis, high-quality cardboard maps, the lot. And they took an absolute drubbing on it because the set in the end didn't make economic sense. So they cut the plastic minis, the cardboard maps and the other greebles to actually be able to keep the current boxes in continuous production so that (horror of horrors!) it would actually stay in stock for people to buy.

They're not GW. Please stop trying to demand GW levels of product at this point in time. Hopefully, if the boxes take off, and Battletech finally gets back to its rightful place on the top of the sci-fi wargaming hill, then they can give us GW-style product. Not now.

They're giving us a damn good product for the money, and that is enough for me.

[Sartris]

Song of Ice and Fire is produced by CMON, who publishes two dozen board games and use a number of not insignificant IPs. The KS for the GoT game raised 1.6m.

Economies of scale are wonderful when you can use them

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

They're not GW. Please stop trying to demand GW levels of product at this point in time.

  Be glad they are not GW. I do not waste my time or money on the crap produced by GW.

  I'm happy with my Ral Partha collection. As a long time modeler, RP ranked among the world's foremost miniature producers, such as Stadden for figures or GHQ for vehicles.

[Joewrightgm]

While I think there is a certain value for money argument to be made with the clan box, there is also a consideration of ‘how much does it take to get you in’ the game. 

Right now, base level: $20 USD.  For maps, rules, and two good looking models that would individually run you $10-15 each.  Ok, let’s jump further down the rabbit hole: I go to game of armored combat, I now have 10 mechs, full rolls and record sheets and maps.  I have a complete game experience for $80 USD.

So if I go nuts and say ‘what are these clans about then?’ And splash the $50, I’ve just opened up a whole new game play experience.

So I think the value is there, mostly because the way Battletech functions is different than a lot of current game

[ironnerd88]

i have no problem to pay 50$ for the box and the 5 minis, but what bothers me most is that they cut out and skimp on the cheapest content to make, which are the pamphlets...
16 Lore pages are a joke.

As for sarna.net, as a new player that page is literally anti-user. The design of that page instantly removes the desire to find out about the lore that everyone says is so good, so it keeps me away from Battletech. Things should be attractive for new and old people, a page that looks like 1995 where I have to look for lore among tons of text and links is not a good idea to attract a player.

I'm not going to compare it with Games workshop, but you only have to see dozens of table games in a price range of 50-70 $ in which very detailed hard plastic figures are made better than Battletech new plastic figures, and many of them, not just 5 figures .

I am afraid of the cost of the lance box with 4 plasti figures. I hope no more than 30$, but i fear 40$.
And we can add the problem for the Europeans, tho find this products and with overcost

I will not get tired of saying it.  Battletech is a rough diamond very poorly managed.

A lot there...

The first thing you need to understand about Battletech lore is the sheer volume of it. Something like 100 novels, probably as many supplement and scenario books (each add to the lore), and dozens of Technical Readouts all add up to a lot of lore. Sarna.net does about as good a job as can be expected with that volume of information - and I find it really easy to navigate (on a laptop or desktop at least).

As for the Almaz effect... Catalyst took on a LOT when they took on Battletech, and they are actually doing a pretty good job with it. the 2nd edition boxed set sold for $20 in 1984, that's $49 in today's money. For that we got:
 48 Full-color, stand-up playing pieces with front and back views, printed on thick cardboard. Enough BattleMechs to put four companies in the field.
 120 Color unit insignias, to display your BattleMech's colors in the field.
 24 Plastic holders for playing pieces.
 48-page rulebook, containing beginning, advanced, expert, and optional rules, plus 10 pages of history, background and technical information.
 2 six-sided dice.
 2 card stock map sheets.
(ironically, this information comes from Sarna.net, and was really easy to pull up).

I'm not a big fan of the thick map boards that come with the newer Boxed Sets (they looked good, but did not function well), other than that, however, I actually think it's a pretty good product. I like the Battlemech Manual and the new Grassland Map Pack as well - much better than some of the original FASA work - and Alpha Strike is a blast to play.

As an added bonus, much of the Battletech material is available for FREE form Catalyst, which can be found in the "New to Battletech" section of their website. Quick Start rules, maps, mech sheets... pretty much everything you need to try the system out is there. I'll agree that they might do a better job of packaging and promoting it, but they seem to be game writers, not game marketers. But then, you also have a huge community of Battletech nerds standing by to help you with any questions.

Maybe you were expecting too much, or maybe you were not expecting so much. Battletech is not something that you can absorb in a weekend. Start small, find a era that you like, and work outward from there into the vast expanse of the Battletech universe. I actually started with a sidebar on a page in the 2nd edition rule book.

Anyway, hope you can find your way in this massive universe. It's a [heckuva] lot of fun, and best shared with friends around a table (preferably with snacks).

[General308]

You know I picked up the new box set today and I am very happy with it.  As a vet player I just bought it for the minis and the new maps.  But Lets look at what you get.  The minis look great.  With the exception of the two high quality minis the old minis just didn't look good so it is an improvement.

The rest you have to look at through the eyes of a new player.  So it has some fiction nice.  I primer and a nice looking rule book.  I think the rule book is the best looking of any of the rule sets.  So it looks like from a new player point of view it is perfect.

Oh and it even throughs in some alpha strike cards if you want that.       I don't see a problem with the box set.

[Fear Factory]

I remember paying around $40 for BattleTech 4th Edition and it had way less than what we have now. All paper/cardboard. You kiddos are spoiled.

Still love the 4th edition counters the best, though.  ^-^

[Ryumyo]

2nd edition cardboard stand-ups as playing pieces bring back memories of long ago played games ( circa late '91 ) ... The new minis in the boxsets are quite a bit of a step up in quality and are worth the cost of admission ( waiting on pewter for a few of them as well ) . I don't blame folks for picking them up for that main reason as there are a number of good excuses to support the decision to do so, I would.

If the quality of the new minis brings in new and more players to the game, it's a good thing. The quality  upgrade has brought a few old players back too. Win - win all around.

[Mindwiper]

https://youtu.be/LbZq7PGKpxY?t=208
What you get in 2019 for 84$. What's the price for the Battletech Box Set?
If you want to get out of your niche, make reasonable prices. Yeah, apples and oranges..lala, but:
Apples and Oranges are competing on the same market, if you're not reasonable in quality and price, you get pushed out of the way and all that's left in the end are fanboys saying "Awesome product" and a company with financial problems.

Here in Germany the Boxed Set is already down below 50€. Imho, if compared to other products a pricepoint of 39€ (mostly same price in $) is reasonable one day. But is CGL loosing money in that range? Is it still worth it?

[Sartris]

“I want cheap minis and I don’t care if it drives you into bankruptcy” is a fun level of fan entitlement.

You’re very right - the customers will decide whether the “value” is sufficient. But the new boxes are already on their third reprint so it appears the current price point is working out. Even if it’s just us “fanboys” are the only people buying them, the capital has to come from somewhere for future improvements.

This whole notion that Battletech has some birthright to be mainstream and not a member of the niche product economy is perplexing. It’s not 1994. The climb back to even barely relevant is going to be long, and hardly guaranteed. If I were as unhappy with Battletech as some people in this thread are, I would have found somewhere else to spend my money. Whatever cgl is selling, youthful nostalgia will never be in the catalog.

[Kustenjaeger]

Greetings

I would suggest we wait until the details of the KS are clear, including add-on pricing and shipping costs before coming to a view.

I am just getting back into Battletech after a brief period of playing it in the 1908s (?) and finding the 14 plastic mechs from 3rd edition in our garage last week (which I painted the last two days).  Having picked up the Beginners box today (and a random Alpha Strike recon lance box) and with GoAC on order, I’ll have 28 mechs.  I thought the Beginners Box was pretty reasonable value.

I’d like to get into the KS but will have to assess the extent I am likely continue to play before the KS closes to see if I can justify the costs and will still be keen whenever the KS delivers. 

Regards

Edward

[pheonixstorm]

I am just getting back into Battletech after a brief period of playing it in the 1908s (?)

Holy hiccups BattleTech is over 100 years old!!

[Sartris]

Back then you had to draw your own record sheets with chalk... a tricky proposition since only one or so player in any group was literate enough to do so. Lots of fistfights broke out over crooked wooden dice. Trouble also often erupted over people accidentally starting another player’s paper stand ups on fire with cigarette ash.

Only real fans will remember