Skidding Rules broken with City Combat

[Captain Punka]

Hi all!  I posted this in a different section of the forums, but this may be the more appropriate place.

I think I must be missing something.  The Commander Alpha rules (p. 74) require a Skid Control Roll whenever a mech begins it's movement on *pavement* and moves 1" on pavement.  This check is required regardless of whether the mech moves just 1" or 10+".

I'm thinking of a battle occurring within a city, this rule means all mechs are checking every time they move.  This rule seems to me to slow game play and not be realistic.  I would understand if mechs are moving exceptionally fast, but even if they just plod along at 1" they must still check.  Tactically, this means mechs are essentially severely restricted and should never enter urban combat zones.

Please let me know if I am missing something.  Thanks so much!

[Valkerie]

Skidding was an advanced/optional rule before.  I think that is still the case, but maybe one of the Gurus can give a definite answer.

[Captain Punka]

I am not a "guru", but as I read these rules unless I am missing something, I don't think they are playable

I would have the rule be to only check for skidding if the mech is sprinting.  Requiring every mech to test every move in a city will bog the game down to a standstill.  Just my 2 cents.

[Scotty]

Sprinting is also an optional rule so that'd be the opposite end of the spectrum (i.e. never used under hardly any circumstances).

That said, while it sounds like the rule is "all or nothing", there's nothing stopping you and your group from ignoring it or treating all pavement as clear terrain if all players in your game are fine with it.

[Captain Punka]

Thanks Scotty!

I don't think Sprinting is optional as it is listed in the Movement chapter right after Jumping (p. 38).

The problem I see is that Skidding is not an "optional" rule either (i.e. not listed in the optional chapter). Instead it's in the Urban Combat chapter. So, it seems like if one is playing with buildings at all, they shouldn't really be ignoring some rules and playing by others.

Seems to me that these rules need to be looked at by Catalyst and have an errata so that they work in a more streamlined way.  I'd suggest to eliminate the "+2" Sprinting modifier on the piloting check (p. 75) and instead have sprinting be the trigger to even make a skidding check.  That would be an easy fix that keeps in spirit with the rules.  My 2 cents.   :)

[Scotty]

You're right, I need to stop thinking of rules that used to be optional as still being so.

That said: skidding is inconvenient, but that doesn't mean it's not working as intended.  I'm away from my book right now; is it just a basic skill check when using ground movement, no modifiers?  That's no more intrusive (and significantly less if you ask me, but I hate Total Warfare skidding rules and ignore them whenever the opportunity comes my way) than the Total Warfare version, and arguably will fail (and bog the game down) less frequently than you might think.  A single roll per mech on what is typically a 4+ check, even multiplied a dozen times a turn, will result in an average of one fail. With any kind of increased skill the number drops far below even that.

Such is the danger of fighting in city streets. :)

[Captain Punka]

Hi Scotty! I appreciate this conversation!  :D

The base rules are a Piloting check (base 4 depending on Pilot skill) modified by the mech's available movement which will typically result in a -1/0/+1/+2 modifier.  Strangely, the chart jumps past +3 and goes to +4/+5/+6.  Most players will be unfamiliar with these rules so will need to reference this chart.  And, IMO, the point of Alpha is to streamline game play, so we are introducing more dice rolls that are not overly important.  When a skid does happen, then a somewhat convoluted process of determining direction, damage, etc. must be looked up (again, players won't be so familiar with these rules).

My main problem with the Skidding rules is not, however, the increased complexity (although I think that goes against the intent of Alpha), but rather that IMO it is unrealistic.  Battlemechs were designed to be a dominant force in war, both in rural settings and urban settings.  As written, even if a mech *walks*, it has a significant chance to slip and fall.  Imagine the dictator of a planet parading his line of 30 mechs and every 30 seconds one slips and smashes into a building.  Very intimidating indeed!

It just doesn't pass the muster of realism in my mind.  With these rules, walking mechs through the streets can *never* be done except in the most dire of situations.  This doesn't make sense to me.

[Scotty]

Unfortunately, concrete in BattleTech is the consistency of smooth glass.  :D  This is well established by the number of times I've skidded on an easy turn into a basement worthy of Batman playing Total Warfare!

The skidding here is significantly simpler and easier to work through than under Total Warfare, and unfortunately that's part of the charm to some people.  I would be surprised to see it errata'd.

[Nahuris]

Now, does it apply to jumping movement, as well ... if so, that's going to make things interesting, as it should not be more difficult to land on a concrete pad, than on dirt, etc .... and if it doesn't, then city fighting is going to be a pack of pogo-bunnies hopping from backyard to grass, or on buildings, only, as they are not pavement, and you won't skid landing on one. I might consider this a need for an errata, as it is going to create odd, or very different results in play ...

Now, mind you, I am a combined arms guy, so encouraging vehicles in cities works for me, but I do see a lot of frustration with this one.


Nahuris

[nckestrel]

It does not apply for jumping.
And yeah, ice and pavement use the same skidding rules...

[Ben]

I've played some games where the house rule was that the unit could opt to skip the skidding check, but if it did, it couldn't fire. The thought being the pilot was focusing on staying up right.

That would also solve the parade issue  ;)

[ironnerd88]

We played skidding as written once, and did not like it.
We House-ruled it right away.

[Weirdo]

I've never played an Alpha Strike game that actually uses those skidding rules, and cheese willing, I never will.

[nckestrel]

Which would be better?
1. Delete the entire skidding section?
2. Make the skidding section optional?
3. Make the skid check happen after exceeding half Move on pavement/ice (instead of 1”).
4. Something else?

[Weirdo]

3 isn't bad at all. 2 is already in effect and until we get improved rules you'll never convince me otherwise. 4 depends on the something else. I still like the idea of skidding and all the hilarity it adds to games, so not really in favor of 1.

Above all, the skid must be a risk you can avoid(by something other than 'cede the city to the enemy'), and the mechanics of what happens when a skid actually occurs must be kept simple.

[Goober415]

Just my two bits, but what we have done in our group is only require skidding checks when you run/sprint.
Walking you do not.

I forget, but I think that may be the way the rules actually work even in TW or pre TW, back in the day.

Regardless thats the way we play and that is a good balance, as I agree there should be checks, but for us only when you are a little more out of control doing risky moves like running and sprinting on pavement.

Maybe that makes it in as errata???

As for years we did the floating critical instead of the instant crit to CT, and years later, that got put in. ( I am 100% sure we had nothing to do with it, but I know alot did it that way as well ).

Long story long... if you dont like a particular rule, and you find it hampers the fun in your play group, I think most would agree if the group overall wants to change to something more agreeable then by all means.
Only thing to be wary of is any new players to your group, keeping them informed, and when any official BT events are played that full normal rules are used. Unless all agree to any changes.

[Valkerie]

Which would be better?
1. Delete the entire skidding section?
2. Make the skidding section optional?
3. Make the skid check happen after exceeding half Move on pavement/ice (instead of 1”).
4. Something else?

Three.  I'm with Weirdo on this.  Skidding should be in an issue for mechs (and others) on pavement, so no number 1.  But in classic, you don't skid if you are using walking/cruising MP.  Even running only results in a skid if the unit turns.  So there has to be some happy middle ground here.  Moving 1" and potentially skidding seems a bit much. 

[ironnerd88]

Which would be better?
1. Delete the entire skidding section?
2. Make the skidding section optional?
3. Make the skid check happen after exceeding half Move on pavement/ice (instead of 1”).
4. Something else?

4. Upon attempting to turn on pavement, make a skill roll. On a failed roll, skid in the direction traveled prior to the turn.

[sadlerbw]

You could also just make moving on pavement/ice cost extra like moving through woods or water. Consider it difficult terrain that requires careful movement.

I’d probably accept making skidding optional,  it only because I wouldn’t feel compelled to ever use those rules.

Personally, I don’t think Alpha Strike really needs skidding rules.

[Spaceman]

Which would be better?
1. Delete the entire skidding section?
2. Make the skidding section optional?
3. Make the skid check happen after exceeding half Move on pavement/ice (instead of 1”).
4. Something else?

I really like 3.  I dislike the skidding check at every 1". It's a simple and elegant option. When you get into trying to say that when you turn on pavement that's when you make a skidding check, I feel that complicates the process.