Vehicle of the Week: Joust BE70* Medium Tank(Author's Notes: Originally, this article was posted several months before the release of the appropriate record sheet volume; while reposting, I took the opportunity to update it to reflect newly available information. Comments from the original thread are also attached. The materials referenced from Sarna.net are, to the best of the author's knowledge (including some research to find independent verification of the contents) genuine and the author would like to thank the BattleTech Wiki for their preservation. In addition, an older article on the Joust based on the old MWDA record sheets volume is appended to the end of this article.)Continuing coverage of TRO3085, we turn this week to the Clan side of the street with one of their new tanks. In a lot of ways, TRO3085 was a breath of fresh air for Clan vehicles, with all five entries being real contenders in their fields, although in this case, some of the credit goes to WizKids. To start things off, I'm fielding a request from icchan (now ANS Kamas P81) for the Joust, a medium tank that can be summed up as a combination of the best features of the Ares and the Myrmidon. The Nova Cats have something of a history trading Clan vehicles for for one reason or another, going back to the Ishtar in TRO3060. After the success of the SM1 Tank Destroyer, which proved to be a viable unit both on the battlefield and the market, the Clan's scientists and merchants wanted to develop another unit quickly. As soon as possible was, thanks to the Jihad, in 3077, nearly a decade later. The result was worth the wait, with Jousts serving with the Nova Cat elements in both the Combine and the Republic, DCMS units, and even the Triarii and Hastati of the Republic Armed Forces while production runs full speed ahead to meet demand much as it has with the SM1. A few reports from DCMS units and the Republic Armed Forces' Triarii have alleged misfires with the main gun but the book notes that the Triarii are among the least experienced forces in the Republic's military. The reports are apparently accurate judging from some Dark Age dossiers preserved on
Sarna.net I ran across in the article's research but also quickly resolved aside from one tank. For some reason, the TRO describes it as slower than many vehicles of comparable tonnage. Since the only tracked or wheeled units around this size that are faster are the Chevalier and the Tyr, it makes me wonder if the TRO is looking at hover vehicles, which are considerably faster but kind of an apples and oranges proposition.
What the lines on Irece were turning out was, as I said, something of a combination of the Ares and the Myrmidon, leaning more toward the latter in quality. The BE700 Joust embraces the trend toward extra-light fusion engines, using a 200-rated extra-light power plant to drive it at 86 kph in clear terrain for a mere 7 tons, a considerable (and well-used) savings of tonnage over either of the aforementioned tanks. All the weapons are in the turret, providing a wide arc at the risk of having them all locked in one direction, possibly an inconvenient one. The main gun is the a Series 7NC extended-range large laser, offering the same damage as the Myrmidon's PPC out to 25 hexes just as the Ares does. In place of either LRMs or SRMs, the BE700 Joust uses a 9-tube advanced tactical missile launcher fed by three tons of ammunition, 7 shots of each type of payload for the ATMs. Finally, four light machine guns are fed by a full ton of ammunition, giving considerable anti-infantry capabilities without having to get right on top of them - a boon against some types. You won't be running out of ammo any time soon considering that each weapon has 50 rounds available to it. Finally, a light active probe provides short range detection, suitable for urban warfare scenarios. The armor is 9.5 tons of Clan ferro-fibrous, a half-ton more than the Myrmidon's 9 tons of
standard plate. Considering the tank's size, I have to wonder if the Joust isn't carrying too much armor. A fully capable active probe would only set it back a half-ton of armor the tank's not getting full value for anyway since the Joust is one of those rare tanks that actually manages to hit the vehicle armor limit. The distribution of 46/38/28/30 could perhaps be laid out a bit better but it's not too bad, especially since everywhere but the tail passes the double Gauss test (three in the case of the front) - very impressive for a 40 ton tank. That said, it clearly says that letting someone get behind you is
bad, so keep your front pointed toward the enemy like a real Clanner! I have to wonder if getting enough tonnage for the active probe out of either the armor or machine gun ammo would be a worthwhile proposition, but since this isn't a recon unit and doctrine implies it's used to screen slower vehicles, it probably isn't a priority. For the sake of comparison, this is more armor than any vehicle in TRO3060 other than the Demolisher II or Mars 100 ton assault tanks, although the Schiltron is only short by a point.
The original WizKids model, the Joust BE701, is also included in TRO3085 and described as an export model for those less able to get their hands on Clan hardware, although at least one Nova Cat unit in the Republic was also using it during the Dark Age period. Even in 3085 there was a demand for this model from the Triarii and Hastari. The primary change was the replacement of the engine with a standard model, requiring another 6 tons. The main armament is unchanged but the missiles were removed in favor of another quartet of machine guns and an LRM 10, giving the unit somewhat less punch but a ferocious crit-seeking ability and considerable power against infantry. The probe was also dropped. The ammo is a tad limited, though, with only a ton for the LRMs and a half-ton for the machine guns. I can't believe I'm saying this, but honestly, that feels kind of light for a machine guns spread like this one. The armor was reduced to only 8 tons laid out 46/31/20/26 - again, the distribution could be better, but that's quite a bit of armor for a vehicle this size. The Republic seems to put a lot of emphasis on infantry and counter-infantry capabilities as well as close combat, so the BE701 isn't too shabby for their purposes. Judging from the reports linked at Sarna, the laser problems mentioned in the TRO are either shared by both models or exclusive to the BE701. My guess is on the former, personally. Those same dossiers also place at least one BE701 in Jade Falcon hands at some point prior to the push against Terra without mentioning how it got to them in the first place. I think it's possible trade could be involved, although without further information, that's nothing more than speculation.
The basic use of a Joust is kind of like a Myrmidon cranked up to 11, except the missiles are more like an Ares's LRMs. You really want to be in someone's face for maximum damage (and the happy rain of 1 point crit-seeking, especially on the export model) but either variant of the Joust can fight effectively at a lot of ranges. Try to keep the front pointed at the enemy and deny the enemy shots to the side armor - not only is it weaker, you're more likely to take motive damage that way. Considering the Joust's armor, that's actually a more pressing threat than getting killed unless you're doing something absolutely insane like trying to take out a
Dire Wolf solo, although compared to something like the hovers or WiGE I've been covering lately, it's not
as likely. Considering the size, the original has a respectable amount of firepower but it's armored well enough to plausibly survive being 30 meters from a Crockett without internal damage as long as the nose was facing the mini-nuke. (This is not to be confused as this being
likely, merely plausible.) One point that's mentioned about usage is that the Nova Cats use it as part of mixed Stars, screening larger units like the Ishtar or Mars. When considering either of those two or comparable tanks, it's important to remember that while the Ishtar is an escort and direct attack unit, rolling up and unloading, and the Mars is something of a mobile bunker, a Joust is more maneuverable and should be used to out-flank the enemy and screen for ambushes, keeping enemies out of the face of the larger tanks and absorbing damage with that well-armored front. It can also serve as part of a faster "cavalry-style" mix.
Countering a Joust isn't especially easy. I suggest using crit-seekers to cripple the vehicle first - 5/8 isn't a lot, but not having it moving around helps and so does creating a blind spot by locking the turret. If unable to do that, use something big to distract the tanks if you can and flank them if possible to shoot up the side and rear armor. Once it's immobile, apply damage (preferably from fairly large guns) until it cracks. One good point about the Joust from an opponent's point of view is that it's quite expensive in BV terms, eating up 1307 BV for each one, which limits the number you're likely to be dealing with at any one time. Another is that, at this time, the BE701 looks unlikely to live up to its predecessor's armor levels, making them easier to dispose of, although infantry would probably prefer to deal with the original.
References: The
Master Unit List is a great stop but
Sarna has some material on the Dark Age origins of the tank worth perusing. A picture of the old Dark Age sculpt is
here; while Iron Wind Metals
has a miniature, they helpfully don't have any pictures of it yet.
The Nova Cats must be getting jealous looks from the Horses after bringing out this nice all-rounder. Expensive tank, but i wish some of the open market BE700s go to the AFFS to replace vintage Vedettes
would imagine the AFFS started that process by purchasing Myrmidons in the late 3050s. Of course, the Joust is sort of pulling a Robin Hood here - if the Myrmidon hit the bullseye, the Joust is splitting the arrow.
Doesn't the BE701 replace the ATM with an LRM-10, instead of forgoing missiles entirely?
All in all, I absolutely love this tank. I first fell for it when it was present in one of my first MWDA boosters, and it was the first thing I looked for when RS:DA came out. I was also all over the IWM mini when it came out, getting enough to guarantee that Jousts will form the core of all my fast Republic armored forces.
I like this tank. It is one good clan MBT. This is a rare thing to find. I loved TRO3085 as it finally introduced a score of rational clan tanks, unlike most of the TRO3060.
8 Light Machine Guns ? I pitty the infantry that get close to this thing.
Depending on the infantry, the tank won't enjoy it much, either. A standard rifle platoon is likely to get very seriously chopped up but in return the tank may get subjected to three or four two point hits which has a decent change of inflicting motive system damage. A platoon armed with certain weapons can do this with an equal or better range modifier than the LMGs. Considering that the variant has to rely more on its maneuverability to survive than the original does and the original lacks half the infantry killing power and won't really enjoy motive damage, I wouldn't get cocky.
An XL engine on a throw away tank. I will admit, a 200XL isn't that expensive but the point holds.
Probably my biggest frustration with this tank is its similarity to the Ares. Basically its an Ares with an XL engine. It doesn't even use the XL well. I have to admit that it is hard to use it well as the mass freed up isn't enough for another serious weapon system. The 701 is just an Ares that drops its LRM15 and uses the spare tonnage on protection.
Frankly I am not sure if the right thing was done with this tank. Its a Dark Age unit so there are immediately problems there given the different rule sets in play. As a scirmisher it offers more armour than the Ares, but with practice I have to wonder if that is a good thing in this role? The improved protection does mean that the Joust can act as a MBT in a way the Ares can't. But the firepower is relatively light. Is anyone going to be that worried about a single ERLL and ATM9 pillboxed in the middle of the battlefield? The modern CBT MBT has experienced a quantum leap in firepower reversing the trend towards capable mediums like the Myrmidon, back to the 60+ ton tank.
Ultimately I am not sure what the Joust adds to the game.
I'm not sure "throw away tank" is really a fair description of the BE700 considering the firepower and armor. It's almost in the Ishtar's caliber for firepower, it's faster than a lot of the Clan heavier units, and has more armor.
A unit that gets pillboxed but the enemy isn't necessarily compelled to kill quickly is more likely to survive and do more damage. It takes time to kill a Joust, time that an enemy may be forced to spend doing something else and soaking up damage, and whatever their faults, an ERLL and an ATM 9 aren't terribly pleasant to get worked over by, either.
Really, I don't ask for it to be a light MBT. I want it to be capable of screening heavier forces, adding a reasonable amount of firepower to the battlefield, not die trivially, and being maneuverable enough to get around well. Could it perhaps better balance those requirements? Sure. But what it does, it does pretty well, and people have argued that cost has gone out the window as a consideration as everyone starts using XL engines on tanks anyway. (I'm not one of them but the school of thought exists.) Beyond that, do you want everything to match the "modern" ideal?
Maybe not match what you call the "modern" ideal but in game if the Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Republic, Word of Blake whoever is making an XL engined tank that can lay down heavy long range fire and go like stink it makes sense their opponents are going to have to match them or better them.
The only way to do this is either use an XL engine on your own tanks or use a stupidly expensive XXL engine which no-one wants to do often.
Sure it's not great seeing a dozen tanks each with identical engine stats able to do pretty much the same thing as the next but in universe it makes perfect sense for rival nations to do exactly the same.
I haven't seen the 3085 stats for the Joust but I can remember it being a solid tank from the DA stats (one of the few converted designs we had)
This is not an MBT. The Clans got one of those, too, in the Carnivore, and it compares nicely with its IS counterparts in the 4/6 department. 3058 Unabridged brought the Ghost Bears a pair of rather nice ones with the Axel IIC series. The Joust's competition in its niche is things like the Myrmidon, Main Gauche, Striker, Vedette, Ares, or Hunter, all of which it compares well to. Looking at 5/8 tanks, the only one that really jumps out as superior is the Axel IIC 2. I'd certainly hope that a tank 25 tons heavier with another 10 tons of armor and weapons available to it with the same engine and speed arrangement was superior!
Any tank under 55 tons is inherently throw away. Arguably any tank is for that matter.
Um, did you just compare a Joust's firepower to an Ishtar? I will admit that there is a range advantage, but the Ishtar matches the Joust with one auto cannon and its LRM alone.
The faster and armoured issue I will address in a minute.
Really, I don't ask for it to be a light MBT. I want it to be capable of screening heavier forces, adding a reasonable amount of firepower to the battlefield, not die trivially, and being maneuverable enough to get around well. Could it perhaps better balance those requirements? Sure. But what it does, it does pretty well, and people have argued that cost has gone out the window as a consideration as everyone starts using XL engines on tanks anyway. (I'm not one of them but the school of thought exists.) Beyond that, do you want everything to match the "modern" ideal?
Now thats is an interesting discussion right there. The second sentence of the second paragraph is an Ares. We can quibble over the dieing trivially, but what you have described is exactly what the Ares does.
Personally I find Clan tanks have enough armour as long as they are not double or triple teamed. In most cases you just can't shove a Clan tank up the guts of a battlefield. For a screening or support unit protection becomes less important because the unit is less likely to be the centre of attention. Throw in the likelihood of being immobilised and critted out there is certainly a point where a tank is too well protected. If all the extra armour means is that a unit lasts a turn or two longer with its gunners stunned the question has to be asked whether extra firepower earlier in the piece could have prevented the stunning.
When I look at the Joust I see a tank protected for something that it should not have to deal with. Any firepower likely to punch through more than 130 points is just as likely to have torn up the treads anyway. Less than that and the tank has probably survived and is crawling away, whether it started with 130 points of armour or 300 points of armour.
In many ways the Joust is the anti Ares. The Ares is a cheap tank with a lot of firepower and minimal survivability. The Joust is an expensive tank, with average firepower and lots of survivability. Something in between would be nice but is extremely unlikely to happen. Now do I want to see a modern ideal? Not necessarily. But what we got was an old idea pushed to another extreme which introduces a whole new set of difficulties without really encouraging a new set of playing styles or skills.
You are right in everything you say, Jellico - but we both know you are also illustrating a point and being very harsh in your evaluation. If anything there is the one saving grace that...
Something in between would be nice but is extremely unlikely to happen.
...the BE701 does exactly that.
(Moonsword, in your listing of crits, you do indeed assume the LAP remains in place; also, Clan FF only takes up 1 slot.)
But speaking of the devil? One of the main attractions of the BE700 is that very light probe which oh so strangely looks so very much light an afterthought. Funny that. To me, the BE700 never, ever said "Ares lite". It really does seem like a cavalry unit deluxe, doubling as an ultra-pimped IFV. Really, in a city environment it has limited eyes and at the same time when facing PBI... well, it does everything that an MBT would offer and more. It is impervious to normal damage and would only and really only be damaged via crits. Which is a cold comfort but compared to the Ares, it *is* a comfort.
So in summary and contrary to what I just said about its role: compared to anything within 10-15 tons (ooh, the thought of filling a DS's light vee bays with Jousts instead of APCs...) the Joust does indeed feel like an MBT more than anything else. IMO the only thing in the Clan Arsenal that should really be compared to it is the Enyo, which still is within weight range (but doesn't earn light vee bay brownie points) and uses an XL but goes a very, very different route.
The Joust gives the Nova Cats (and their allies) a solid medium tank, something they didnt really have since their Abjuration, and is heavily influenced by what they actually produce. Except for the engine, everything on it is 'off the shelf' tech-even the Communications and Tactical systems.
In terms of armor, it matches up with other NC designed vehicles. Compared to most Clan vehicles, they're all fairly well armored. I consider this a shift in Nova Cat doctrine when it comes to vehicle use. Vehicles may be easy to produce, compared to mechs, but the NC's cant really treat anything as truly expendable anymore. Better risk a reduction in firepower for an increased chance to have a recoverable tank at the end of the day.
Um, did you just compare a Joust's firepower to an Ishtar? I will admit that there is a range advantage, but the Ishtar matches the Joust with one auto cannon and its LRM alone.
Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. I forgot about the lasers when I said that. Without them, that "almost" comes a hell of a lot closer. [EDITOR'S NOTE: I'm still feeling kind of silly about that one.]
But what we got was an old idea pushed to another extreme which introduces a whole new set of difficulties without really encouraging a new set of playing styles or skills.
There's a lot in here that doesn't push boundaries. I felt the Joust was a nice, capable medium tank that did what I wanted it to do - engage enemies around its own size, bring a decent amount of firepower, and not die too readily. Notice that I suggested - me, the guy who keeps going on about "Not enough armor!" - that maybe it had too much armor although I doubt we'd draw the line in the same place. Don't assume that the only thing I might do is drop it a half-ton, either - that probe comment is as much as I'm inclined to make outside of one of the design forums because I'm trying to strike a balance between freedom of expression and things that keep the writers from being able to mix freely.
That is a tough call given the need to retread so many DA units.
Giggins and Maxim II with their huge infantry bays.
The Bolla as a wheeled stealth omni platform
The Winston as a return to a heavy tank with a cluster of weapons rather than a big gun with support.
Fensalir for obvious reasons.
The Trajan for general weirdness.
The various sealed variants offer interesting options.
There are also a number of platforms like the Vedette Cell, Canivor and Gurtlier that I like because they are tweaks on old ideas that do their jobs well.
I rather like the Fensalir, too, and it really does push the curve. I also appreciated Chanman's bit of deviousness there in using them as self-deployed bunkers (possibly orbital dropped if you take Welshman's ideas into consideration).
The Maxim II just strikes me as someone taking the Maxim (I) from RS3085 and pushing the infantry bay capacity up at the expense of the weapons. On the other hand, that's not necessarily a bad thing, and as much as it's asking to be a basket full of eggs to get kicked over in combat, I can see it having a lot of uses outside of high intensity combat zones to move large masses of troops efficiently or to haul mechanized troops. The firepower is also light enough to keep any temptations on the part of the driver or commander to act like an IFV to a minimum.
The Trajan's weirdness puts me off, honestly. It seems like 85 tons of random parts in a pile that happens to be shaped like an extremely slow IFV.
I don't have a firm opinion on the rest at this point, although the concept of the Bolla is interesting.
The combination of the ERLL and ATM9 on the Joust 700 sounds like a good combination to me. Four machine guns is a bit overkill in my book, though. I'd also slash the armour a bit to see if I could cut the engine down to a standard fusion because XLFEs in tanks leave a bad taste in my mouth.
4 LMGs isn't so stupid - preferably you'll be firing at medium-long range, which means that with a 4 gunner you're probably hitting about 50% of the time. 2 LMGs will kill half a platoon in cover. 8 LMGs is a bit overkill, thought!
The export version seems like a nice ride thought it certainly could do with just 4 LMGs! I'd rather have twin LRM5s and an AMS
I consider that aspect of it for urban pacification.
8 LMG will let it kill most platoons without ANY trouble, even those taking cover.
As a LMG will kill at average 3.5 troopers (or seven in open terrain), you need at average the 8 LMG to kill a platoon in one salvo... especially platoons with a damage divisor of '2'
