Fraility of PCs on Tabletop

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Charisma's main problem is that you can get bonuses to it without having to raise it high enough to get Link Attribute Bonus thanks to Attractive and Gregarious, which leads into my next point.  Charisma has nothing to do with the actual physical appearance of a character(unless your group wants it to).  I've known plenty of people that would not win a beauty contest but had the gift of gab and plenty of pretty people who I'd have trouble spending extended periods of time with.

Edge's problem is if you're really using enough to have more than 2-3 points, well I'm not sure I'd want to be part of such a campaign and would seriously question my dice and the GM's dice.

It's a fair point.  Up until right now I hadn't noticed that Gregarious gives a +1 to skills, but Fit only gives its bonus to BOD and STR checks rather than BOD and STR-linked skills.  From a balance point of view, perhaps they both should work the same way just with different attribs (and potentially linked skills).  Still, for a mere 100xp Patient is by far the best of the lot.  It's +1 to basically every non-combat skill, and even a few in-combat skills still qualify too.  Why take anything else?

Re: Lethality:  I'm still wrapping my mind around what was given upthread.  My gut says something is off, but I can't imagine what.  It could just end up being that it's the rules themselves, as implied.  But I haven't yet had a chance to pore over the rules to see if there's an alternate explanation.  As for mechwarriors suffering damage in the cockpit not lining up with TW/Boardgame.... I don't think it ever was intended to.  And I'm aware of the selling point of ATOW being "compatable" with TW/Boardgame.  Rather than try to bend over backwards to reconcile TW/Boardgame's personal damage system, they just flat ignored it in ATOW.  It's not a bug, it's a "feature".

[monbvol]

*nod*

As I've said the main intention seems to be keeping your character from getting to that point in the first place but in looking into the rules as written for when a character does inevitably get to that point anyway the base target number does seem too high and looking at some of the other things that can happen I think there are some decent frame works to make use of that lowering the TN could be a very viable solution just by itself.

Probably won't exactly mesh up but I do find myself not bothered by aToW having a few differences.

[UrQuanKzinti]

As for mechwarriors suffering damage in the cockpit not lining up with TW/Boardgame.... I don't think it ever was intended to.  And I'm aware of the selling point of ATOW being "compatable" with TW/Boardgame.  Rather than try to bend over backwards to reconcile TW/Boardgame's personal damage system, they just flat ignored it in ATOW.  It's not a bug, it's a "feature".

I don't presume to know what was in the mind of the designers, nor to justify their choices, I simply read the sales pitch and observe the shortcomings of the system. "Compatible" isn't an obscure or esoteric word, its meaning is defined and well understood to have certain implications which the game fails to uphold.

Personally I don't mind having to add up the weight of my gear because I am organized enough to keep track of any changes after having determined the weight of my initial gear, so system's like aToW and D&D 3.5/Pathfinder's approach don't actually bother me at all.

Yeah but even Pathfinder is simplified compared to ATOW.  Items are in full pound increments with the rare 1/2 lb weight. Smaller items don't even have a weight. Whereas ATOW lists everything, even if it's only a couple hundred grams. It's very fiddly

[monbvol]

Fair enough.

[ZombieAcePilot]

Charisma's main problem is that you can get bonuses to it without having to raise it high enough to get Link Attribute Bonus thanks to Attractive and Gregarious, which leads into my next point.  Charisma has nothing to do with the actual physical appearance of a character(unless your group wants it to).  I've known plenty of people that would not win a beauty contest but had the gift of gab and plenty of pretty people who I'd have trouble spending extended periods of time with.

Edge's problem is if you're really using enough to have more than 2-3 points, well I'm not sure I'd want to be part of such a campaign and would seriously question my dice and the GM's dice.

Personally I don't mind having to add up the weight of my gear because I am organized enough to keep track of any changes after having determined the weight of my initial gear, so system's like aToW and D&D 3.5/Pathfinder's approach don't actually bother me at all.

Fit affects your fatigue generation, which I'd argue is actually its main benefit. Fit halves fatigue from non combat sources (any fatigue not generated by damage done to you) and rounds down (unlike what the chart says). This means you can now sprint for 0 fatigue or make melee attacks while encumbered without fatigue. It also means you  can outpace slower soldiers by keeping up higher rates of movement for longer. A 5 Body soldier with fit can run for 25 minutes expending 1 fatigue every five minutes and arrive with no fatigue penalties. One without fit gains 3 fatigue per five minutes, and is already suffering penalties only ten minutes in. By 15 in he is on the verge of passing out. Assuming he doesn't want to get that winded, he slows down to rest after ten minutes. Meanwhile fit guy could put over 200 yards on him in that minute. In an escape and evade scenario, that could be a huge difference.

Encumbrance forces you to think and play realistically. I'd challenge anyone who builds a dexterity rogue in pathfinder to play from level 1 with encumbrance. Dumping strength seems like a good decision till you figure out you can't carry any weight, climbs, swim, etc. The only reason why that kind of nonsense proliferates is that people rarely are forced to play from level 1, use encumbrance, and magic items circumvent the issue. In a game like aToW, there isn't really any skipping ahead to get to magic items that don't exist, so it is straight up a matter of using encumbrance. Is your soldier strong enough to drag a downed buddy out of the line of fire? How much ordinance can you carry without being unduly slowed down? Traits like fit might allow you to take the pack full of explosives despite it encumbering you because you can use your running as efficiently as others walk!

To my count, 9 skills list Charisma as their linked stat. 22 for dexterity. 30 for intelligence. So the bonus effects half to 1/3 of the skills as some other stats. That said, the entire skill list is seldom relevant to most characters. Some traits are definitely powerhouses in their niches though. Attractive, gregarious, and patient all are probably better than they should be.

My main issue with edge is lack of guidelines on its restoration. Having to spend 20 xp per reroll or bonus is way too steep a cost, meaning this has to refresh via GM to be worth squat. Plus, you basically need 2+points, as going down to 0 requires you to pay XP, meaning that it might as well be counted as one lower in most cases.

[UrQuanKzinti]

Fit affects your fatigue generation, which I'd argue is actually its main benefit. Fit halves fatigue from non combat sources (any fatigue not generated by damage done to you) and rounds down (unlike what the chart says). This means you can now sprint for 0 fatigue or make melee attacks while encumbered without fatigue. It also means you  can outpace slower soldiers by keeping up higher rates of movement for longer. A 5 Body soldier with fit can run for 25 minutes expending 1 fatigue every five minutes and arrive with no fatigue penalties. One without fit gains 3 fatigue per five minutes, and is already suffering penalties only ten minutes in. By 15 in he is on the verge of passing out. Assuming he doesn't want to get that winded, he slows down to rest after ten minutes. Meanwhile fit guy could put over 200 yards on him in that minute. In an escape and evade scenario, that could be a huge difference.

Is Fit that useful when fatigue can be so easily recovered? A character can recover Fatigue = BOD every 5 seconds if they're resting.
This means that technically, if you're integrating with tabletop a Mechwarrior who suffered an Ammo Explosion and didn't pass out can take one turn in Battletech resting (10 seconds, or 2 ATOW turns) and recover 10 Fatigue if they're a BOD 5 warrior, and since Ammo Explosions do 8 Fatigue, it would be wiped out with no ill effect. 

[monbvol]

Fit is a bit situational but if you find your character in a situation where they can't even take those 5 seconds it does become a lot more useful.  Still I'm not sure it shouldn't be eliminated and the bonus from Toughness be slightly tweaked.

As far as realism and encumbrance again this is a taste thing and I don't begrudge anyone for wanting a more cinematic approach or a more detailed/realistic approach.  Either way it is something if anyone wants to discuss further would seem better served by having it's own thread.

[ZombieAcePilot]

Is Fit that useful when fatigue can be so easily recovered? A character can recover Fatigue = BOD every 5 seconds if they're resting.
This means that technically, if you're integrating with tabletop a Mechwarrior who suffered an Ammo Explosion and didn't pass out can take one turn in Battletech resting (10 seconds, or 2 ATOW turns) and recover 10 Fatigue if they're a BOD 5 warrior, and since Ammo Explosions do 8 Fatigue, it would be wiped out with no ill effect.

That only works in combat and requires your whole turn. I don't worry as much about a mechwarrior when it comes to fatigue as I do the ground pounders, although, that might not be the case if a cockpit that is oven hot. I'm also fairly certain that you can't recover fatigue if you are still taking continuous damage, as that mechwarrior might be from the heat. Without CASE in place, most mechs are toast if a good sized ammo bin is hit, so you have other problems to contend with.

[Col Toda]

Any character with the tough trait loses 1/4 of the incoming damage ; anyone with the Fit trait recovers fatigue faster ;  anyone with the enhanced immune system mutation trait heals 2 X faster . Depending on how the head is hit or blown off is how likely it is that the character gets hurt or killed and Edge can force a location re-roll from what I understand . This reduces the likelyhood of character death but not eliminates it . If the incoming damage is from any source that is slower than radar IE ballistic or missile weapon not energy ; You can say the computer in the auto eject has subroutines to activate on a statistically certain incoming kill shot to the head .  The computer can make a speed of light yes or no determination if it is programmed in . With these provision which can only happen to table top if you are playing AToW and you are installing a more sophisticated auto eject system , character life is better secured . Depending of level of Play you may have access to medical packs that stabilizes the character and cures 1 or 2 points of AToW scale damage . In the Star League Era it may be possible to grow a new clone body and have a backup of your mind in an AI computer ; The high tech is there though that application seems to be never mentioned . 

[UrQuanKzinti]

Edge does not affect location rolls in ATOW
It can only affect Action Checks or Attribute Checks, for either your character or an enemy directly affecting your player.  So if an enemy hits you with a SMG in ATOW, you can make him miss, but once you take the hit if you're using location rolls you can't change the fact he hit your unprotected head instead of your ballistic-plate vest.

[Tslammer]

Our ATOW group has had to make some changes.

Damage scale We matched the five step damage scale of the Mech head hits with out of mech like in MW2 condition monitors.
Essentially giving everyone more health so an errant sneeze did not wipe out half the team. essentially bod x5.

We are also using damage locations arms can take 1.3 x Bod, Legs 1.6 torso bod x4 and head is your bod rating.

The average character can still only take 3-4 hits before they are out of the fight. Which to us seemed a little more action heroish than the base game and it tracked with the out of mech combat we have played for the last 20+ years. Its usually one of two ways that removes you from combat you fail a condition monitor check or you take to much damage to an important location. An arm getting hit twice usually the end of its combat use.

EDGE
We allow edge to modify any roll you make. Be it a gunnery to hit, a failed PSR, failed Crit roll. We also allow you to use it for moving damage taken to your mech. Don't want a head hit ok. Need to keep that leg sure.

We also allow a point of EDGE recovery on lucky rolls. AKA a pair of ones or a pair of 10's. Yes Nancy we are 2D10 Heretics. We also allow characters to recover a point of edge per month of transit or down time.

Lastly we allow characters to spend XP to buy back EDGE at the END phase of any turn using the standard 20XP per point rule.  Everyone (should) keep a few points aside for such occasions but they do not.

Yes PC's still do die. In the last four years of game play we have seen three characters die in their mechs and three die in out of mech actions. One eaten by wolves, another a point blank execution when everything failed and they got caught. Another on the mean streets of Galatea.

If you get hit you mark off a dot for each point of damage taken. The top damage blocks are for Lethal or Bruise damage the bottom dot is for Fatigue damage. It helps keep track after the fight to determine recovery time.

[UrQuanKzinti]

Cool Tslammer, thanks for sharing!

[Maelwys]

So with all this discussion about frailty and taking damage and what not, are people thinking about spending more on attributes to increase the likelihood that the character will survive, such as putting 6 in body, since that seems to be the "Default" for when you don't have exact attributes, or do you feel its better to put points in skills and traits in order to personalize the character more?

[Tslammer]

In our game attributes are important. Anyone who averages 4's across their stats is not going to survive long term.
We redid the Link bonus and have a defensive system I mentioned in the Steve Erkl vs. Bruce Lee thread.

We also give our players more starting XP 5500 to compensate a little for the fact that attributes matter a lot more.

We also cap starting character skill at +4. Unless the player has a good back story which we may allow a non in mech skill to come in a little higher.

Attribute       Link
1                    -3
2                    -2
3                    -1
4-5                  0
6-7                 +1
8-9                 +2
10                  +3

[PurpleDragon]

In our game attributes are important. Anyone who averages 4's across their stats is not going to survive long term.
We redid the Link bonus and have a defensive system I mentioned in the Steve Erkel vs. Bruce Lee thread.

We also give our players more starting XP 5500 to compensate a little for the fact that attributes matter a lot more.

We also cap starting character skill at +4. Unless the player has a good back story which we may allow a non in mech skill to come in a little higher.

Attribute       Link
1                    -3
2                    -2
3                    -1
4-5                  0
6-7                 +1
8-9                 +2
10                  +3

Right up until AToW came out we did this very exact same thing.  Makes me wonder who you are and where you live...    ::)

However, with each new release of any edition wherein the rules have been modified greatly, I believe it is better to start with scratch and try the system as is.  Having said that, I have found a few things I'd like to change up in AToW but do not really want to go back to the 2d10 system unless if battletech as a whole did so.  Assuming that without exceptional attribute or a Clan phenotype, the attribute range is 1-6, how would you modify the numbers you have above to reflect? 

I do still use the 3rd ed lifepaths for character creation; I just had to come up with some modifications for xfering points over. 

[Tslammer]

We are in Seattle. I have also shared with you detailed information on our 2D10 system before via PM

Before ATOW we had a similar system that was not as fine tuned for MW3. Based loosely off the MW3 Solaris rules.

We did away with clan field aptitude and made them fast learners for their field skills.

Most PC's are in the 6-8 range for core attributes. We do have one player who has only one 6 and gets buy just fine with his +1 link for Gunnery and Piloting.
In our game DEX and INT are your core defensive stats and of course Dex/Rfx are your core gunnery and piloting stats. Over time players buy up stats.

Most of our players dump stat Edge and CHA.

[Karimancer]

I actually like games where it's relatively easy to kill the PCs. Makes the players plan and think things out a little more. And it really cuts down on the number of rash, reckless actions players can sometimes be prone too.

[Tslammer]

Even with our changes its really easy to kill or maim PC's. Besides the few that have died at least two have replacement limbs.

[Stallion12]

How do you transfer the concious rules with atow.? Do you guys use the bt chart but count the damage received from atow towards it?

[Stallion12]

I'm kinda confused on how atow characters are more likely to fail their unconcious rolls.

[Col Toda]

Most mech warriors only have 3 edge , so by all means have them re roll location it after all represents LUCK .

[Jackmc]

Why did they not make it a function of both BOD and WIL power?

Because in LoC from head trauma, willpower is not a factor, it's purely a matter of physiology.  For lack of a better analogy, the brain has to reboot and until it's booted back up to a point that ego is initialized, willpower is not present.

Yeah, I'm trying to find a way to like the game, but it seems like catalyst forgot to play test the thing (very catalyst). I honestly don't know what to make of attributes.

Per a conversation with the original designer early-on, the Prime Development Directive was to use game mechanics that had never been used before, even if there was a quantifiably better mechanic for accomplishing something.  To the extent that mechanically, the game is just a mess rather than a hot mess, we must thank the writer who was brought in to finish the book (Paul?, IIRC).  That's not a criticism of him, it's actually a compliment given the constraints placed upon him. 

-Jackmc


-Jackmc

[Paul]

Not sure I'd use those exact words, but yes, a lot of constraints were placed at day 0. Some made sense, some were unhelpful. Probably one of the very worst decisions, wasn't a decision at all:
To keep the MW3 weapon data because it was reprinted in Tech Manual, and we weren't about to contradict another core book. Basically a problem that was unfixable by the time we started to work on ATOW, since the only feasible solution was if TM was printed with all-new-ATOW stats, which'd require simultaneous development. Didn't happen that way, so sometimes you're stuck with legacy.

Subsequent to that, some design decisions were made by the lead dev (and line dev at the time, Herb) about what the game ought to be, subsequent to him spending an ungodly amount of time reading through pretty much every RPG in the market at the time (and a few that weren't anymore).
The high lethality was one such decision. I've grown to like it, and we added the reduced lethality rules in to cover the concern.

Then, a few actual mistakes were made during development. It's gonna happen. IE, we should've made point based the default chargen, and made Modules optional. We probably also could've made BAR easier. I honestly think that's about it, when it comes to major failures.

After that, we got a decent chunk of playtest data. Some things were incorporated, others were not.

What does that leave? Tweaks, in my view. Something not stated as clearly as it should? OK, sorry. Maybe next time.


Consciousness TW vs ATOW: yep, noted prior to playtest, after the mechanism was finalized for ATOW. The decision was to not change it. Something to keep in mind:
The Standard TW MechWarrior would have BOD 6 and WIL 6. And no Edge.
(The archetypes are for PCs, not TW NPCs; yes I wanted that stated clearly, no we didn't do that.)
Subduing attacks: p. 175: needs a 'D' in the damage code. Only applies to ammo explosions and heat. Not normal head hits or falling.
I can't quite recall the convo I had with Herb about setting the damage values on p.217; they were specifically set with the standard cooling vest and neuro helmet in mind, but that should create different outcomes than what we're seeing. It's been 8 years, I don't recall.


Also, I was there for the start of ATOW, and Herb was there till the finish.

Paul

[Daryk]

*snip*
To keep the MW3 weapon data because it was reprinted in Tech Manual...
*snip*

That explains SO much...

[Paul]

That explains SO much...

Yeah, that cascaded through a lot of it.

Paul

[Stallion12]

Is the cockit damage on the chart only if the cockpit critical happens? Or is it any mech head hit?

[Paul]

Is the cockit damage on the chart only if the cockpit critical happens? Or is it any mech head hit?

Any head hit.

[Daemion]

Truth is the whole getting knocked unconscious thing is more a trope than reality.  It's actually very rare for injury to cause unconsciousness, even horrible and inevitably fatal injuries usually leave the dying conscious.  Screaming and moaning and calling for help.

When it comes to pilot damage and the board game, I've come to look at 'Consciousness' as a chosen by-word for stunned or incapacitated. The different levels of recovery are based on the extent and severity.

A failed 'Dashboard check' during a fall could be the warrior smacking his helmet on something, and the faceplate impacting on his nose, forcing it to bleed. Nose hits leave eyes watering at the very least and can be hard to work around when you can't wipe them. Neurohelmlets are certainly fully encased keeping you from using your hands to wipe away your tears. So, you're left for a few seconds blinking them away, and there's really not a whole lot you'd want to try that wouldn't damage your Mech with impared vision in the middle of combat. Thus the inactivity of a barn.

There's also the fact that your limbs are out where they can flail around, and if you're not ready, they'll smack against something, leaving you out a leg or arm until you can get past the pain to use it again. There's a reason they warn against bracing against the dash or steering wheel in a car crash. The impact can break your arms. You're falling 3 or 4 stories when a Mech drops.

Cockpit impacts from weapons can generate huge impact waves in the air inside the cockpit. You're essentially inside a bell when it's rung. This can inflict damage on the ears, especially the inner ear, which is important for balance.

There's also the potential for Star Trek-like system damage with computer circuitry frying, or spalling effects. 

Too much of any of that, or all of that, and after a while, you're 'out of it' for longer and longer periods, having to work past pain or other physical failings before you can act again.

RPGs try to go into this kind of detail to help tell a better narrative, or fill in the blanks that the more nebulous board game leaves open to the imagination.

I, too, wish they chose a better buzz word, like 'stun'.

[SCC]

As for mechwarriors suffering damage in the cockpit not lining up with TW/Boardgame.... I don't think it ever was intended to.  And I'm aware of the selling point of ATOW being "compatable" with TW/Boardgame.  Rather than try to bend over backwards to reconcile TW/Boardgame's personal damage system, they just flat ignored it in ATOW.  It's not a bug, it's a "feature".

Actually for a BOD(?) 6 MechWarrior the two system line up perfectly, 6 hits will result in the MechWarrior falling unconscious. Where is doesn't work to well is tank crews, they where armor and things those crew stunned and crew killed hits don't work.

[Col Toda]

My current character has 6 BD with Fit and Tough so I am a little ahead of the crowd. My character has the advanced immune mutation so he heals twice as fast . I presume that the average pilot combat cockpit comes with combat drugs autoinjectors to mesh with the miniture game.