Author Topic: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?  (Read 42559 times)

Charistoph

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Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« on: 11 March 2020, 14:37:04 »
Just a quick, simple question, should the Light, Medium, and Heavy Rifle which loses almost all its damage to Standard Armor be reviewed and upgraded (even if it is just an ammo version with a BV cost) so that one could apply their full damage without consideration of the armor any more than an autocannon?

How would such a change affect your builds if it was?
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Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #1 on: 11 March 2020, 17:49:31 »
I thought the whole point of the Rifles was that they were completely obsoleted by Autocannons...

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #2 on: 11 March 2020, 19:32:36 »
I thought the whole point of the Rifles was that they were completely obsoleted by Autocannons...
Indeed, they might have to do even less damage.
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Charistoph

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #3 on: 11 March 2020, 19:42:42 »
Indeed, they might have to do even less damage.

They already do less damage right now.

Would having these Rifles do normal damage make Autocannons useless, or would it just open up a new brand of equipment options to work with.  They don't seem that much powerful off hand, but I don't have as much practical experience to work with.
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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #4 on: 11 March 2020, 19:43:12 »
I thought the whole point of the Rifles was that they were completely obsoleted by Autocannons...

I think it was actually modern armor that did them in. They were still very potent weapons back when every tank was still rolling around with BAR 7 armor or less. At the time the autocannon (in 2 and 5 variety) just has a tremendous advantage in munitions capacity.

The AC 10 might be seen as an attempt to regain that old hitting power though, and it did appear shortly after primitive modern armor started appearing.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #5 on: 11 March 2020, 19:51:49 »
They already do less damage right now.
I know, I as talking about making the penalty even more severe.
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Charistoph

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #6 on: 11 March 2020, 22:47:47 »
Just for gits and shiggles, I ran some numbers, and even if Rifles did full damage like Autocannons, they are still a bit anemic on damage capacity as their ammo holds are just so low.

To put it simply, if you managed to hit with every shot, and it wasn't automatically reduced, a full ton of Rifle ammo runs up to 54 points of damage.  The average Autocannon runs at 100, with the AC/2s running at 90, and the two lighter Gauss Rifles going 120 or more.  The LB-Xs are a bit wonky, as their damage is so variable even if you hit, but the Heavy Gauss Rifles tend to be a bit more anemic than the standard autocannon run.

For the damage you can do in a turn (provided all shots of the multi-shots hit, and the HGR at Max, with LB-Xs at 70% ala AeroSpace) per ton of the gun, it goes a bit different. 

Ignoring the LB-Xs, the AC/2s are the worst running at about 0.33, with the Light running at 0.5, and the Ultra pushing up to 0.57.  The Light Rifle actually clocks in at an even 1, even with the Light AC/5 and Gauss Rifle, which is just over the AC/10's 0.833, and a good deal over the LGR's 0.67 and AC/5's 0.63.

The Heavy Rifle clocks in at 1.125 right behind the Medium Rifle's 1.2, and is still behind the mighty AC/20's 1.43.  The heavy Ultras and Rotaries start getting rather scary with the Rotary AC/5 topping the chart at 3, but that requires all 6 shots to hit consistently, and with the Ultra 10 and Ultra 20 lagging behind at 1.54 and 2.67 respectively.

For other performances, the Heavy Rifle's range is comparable to the LB 10-X (while carrying a 60m minimum range), but running at twice the heat like the Ultra AC/10 does on a single shot, for less damage but does weigh in 2/3 of the standard AC/10.

The Medium Rifle's range is akin to the LAC/5 (but with a 30m minimum), but runs hotter for one more point of damage at the same weight.

The Light Rifle hits like a Small Laser, but with an LB-20x's range, but only weighing like an Inner Sphere's SRM-6.

Honestly, I don't think it would affect balance all that much to bypass the fluff to include them and give ballistic weaponry an interesting range brackets.  Ammo bins run dry faster (only really a concern for campaigns or the Heavy Rifle), but that also means they are less dangerous to the carrier when hit.  The only thing is to bypass the fluff, and that can be easily hand-waved in since Primitive designs have been cropping up here and there.  Balance is already wonky with all the other tech floating around out there to say nothing of Clan tech.
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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #7 on: 12 March 2020, 00:37:09 »
They already do less damage right now.

Would having these Rifles do normal damage make Autocannons useless, or would it just open up a new brand of equipment options to work with.  They don't seem that much powerful off hand, but I don't have as much practical experience to work with.
The ACs (Vanilla ones, especially) are obsolescent regardless of what you do with the Rifles.  Even in 3025, they're simply sub-average arms, with a few having a trait or two that gives them some sort of niche (AC/20's damage concentration and head-capping, AC/2's sheer range).  And then, those advantages are eroded as technology advances during the Clan Invasion, the Jihad, and the Dark Ages.

The problem of ACs isn't rifled cannons.  The problem of ACs isn't gauss rifles, lasers, missiles, or whatever else.  The problem of ACs is ACs.  I wouldn't worry too much if your changes make the Rifles more competitive relative to ACs; those have issues of their own that needs to be solved to prevent them from being a "negative false choice".
Just for gits and shiggles, I ran some numbers, and even if Rifles did full damage like Autocannons, they are still a bit anemic on damage capacity as their ammo holds are just so low.

...

Honestly, I don't think it would affect balance all that much to bypass the fluff to include them and give ballistic weaponry an interesting range brackets.  Ammo bins run dry faster (only really a concern for campaigns or the Heavy Rifle), but that also means they are less dangerous to the carrier when hit.  The only thing is to bypass the fluff, and that can be easily hand-waved in since Primitive designs have been cropping up here and there.  Balance is already wonky with all the other tech floating around out there to say nothing of Clan tech.
This is essentially what I concluded a long time back.  Peel off the damage malus and the Rifle Cannons become a decent intro-tech era weapon, handwave the "old" models as using either primitive versions of the rifle cannon or the ammunition that does suffer from the damage malus.  Opening up those "enhanced" Rifle Cannons to Intro-tech gives an opportunity to make a few more unique 3025-era designs with ballistic armaments.  I think I made an old post on Rifle Cannons somewhere here as well...

Charistoph

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #8 on: 12 March 2020, 01:28:55 »
The ACs (Vanilla ones, especially) are obsolescent regardless of what you do with the Rifles.  Even in 3025, they're simply sub-average arms, with a few having a trait or two that gives them some sort of niche (AC/20's damage concentration and head-capping, AC/2's sheer range).  And then, those advantages are eroded as technology advances during the Clan Invasion, the Jihad, and the Dark Ages.

The problem of ACs isn't rifled cannons.  The problem of ACs isn't gauss rifles, lasers, missiles, or whatever else.  The problem of ACs is ACs.  I wouldn't worry too much if your changes make the Rifles more competitive relative to ACs; those have issues of their own that needs to be solved to prevent them from being a "negative false choice".

While true, especially when the LB-X and Ultras are close enough in mass to make so little difference, and the fact that currently the ACs aren't really balanced on their own, my point on this wasn't to address the AC's issues, I just didn't want the Rifles to completely unbalance the fragile niche that AC's have in the IntroTech realm. 

Of course, obvious answer would be to not allow them in IntroTech, but I still don't see them causing a problem except for tradition's sake.  However, I'm not quite as deep in to the gameplay as I'd like, so thus running this buy everyone here.
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RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #9 on: 13 March 2020, 08:25:08 »
I don't think removing the -3 damage points would effect ACs any. The closest contest I can see would be between the HRC and the AC/10 and that's only because of the AC/10's weight. The 4 ton difference allows the HRC to add more ammo and the extra 3 hex reach of the HRC would help compensate for the 1 point less damage and 1 point extra heat. The downside of course is having a greater chance of having your ammo bin being hit.

Plus Rifles can't take advantage of alternate ammo. I'd argue they should but even if they could the reduced ammo and damage would really hurt them.  Rifles also can't take advantage of optional rules for rapid-fire or splitting fire between multiple targets. For Field Guns that's a big advantage for ACs.

Really, I think not having the -3 damage just opens up the weapons options for lighter units, beyond missiles and lasers, and gives more variety for lowtech units.

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #10 on: 13 March 2020, 18:13:16 »
I don't think removing the -3 damage points would effect ACs any. The closest contest I can see would be between the HRC and the AC/10 and that's only because of the AC/10's weight. The 4 ton difference allows the HRC to add more ammo and the extra 3 hex reach of the HRC would help compensate for the 1 point less damage and 1 point extra heat. The downside of course is having a greater chance of having your ammo bin being hit.

Plus Rifles can't take advantage of alternate ammo. I'd argue they should but even if they could the reduced ammo and damage would really hurt them.  Rifles also can't take advantage of optional rules for rapid-fire or splitting fire between multiple targets. For Field Guns that's a big advantage for ACs.

Really, I think not having the -3 damage just opens up the weapons options for lighter units, beyond missiles and lasers, and gives more variety for lowtech units.
Rather than compare the HRC to an AC/10 I'd compare it to 2 AC/5s and I think it comes out pretty favourably. The extra ammo crits are an issue, but the 4-7 spare tons you get back (exact value dependent on your desired ammo threshold and heat sink requirements, but you're still getting 4 tons if you need 30 shots per gun and two extra heat sinks) and the damage concentration more than make up for it in my opinion.

That doesn't mean I think that "modernised" Rifles are broken or anything, I just think they're a little better than ACs, given the same ammo options.(I don't actually think Rifles should get all the ammo options of ACs, but Flak ammo should probably be available at least)

Charistoph

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #11 on: 13 March 2020, 22:54:04 »
That doesn't mean I think that "modernised" Rifles are broken or anything, I just think they're a little better than ACs, given the same ammo options.(I don't actually think Rifles should get all the ammo options of ACs, but Flak ammo should probably be available at least)

I was only considering a new ammo option so that instead of rewriting the rules of the whole thing, this new Rifle ammo would allow them to operate without their classic deficit.  I had not considered allowing them the other AC ammo types at all, though I do agree that if they had any of the alternate AC ammo types, only the Flak should be considered (ala the Boffers), even though the tanks of even the 80s had different ammo types in their bins.
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RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #12 on: 14 March 2020, 01:46:05 »
Rather than compare the HRC to an AC/10 I'd compare it to 2 AC/5s and I think it comes out pretty favourably. The extra ammo crits are an issue, but the 4-7 spare tons you get back (exact value dependent on your desired ammo threshold and heat sink requirements, but you're still getting 4 tons if you need 30 shots per gun and two extra heat sinks) and the damage concentration more than make up for it in my opinion.


Sure a HRC is better than two AC/5's. It weighs less, has a greater punch, and could do greater damage. However, one on one the AC has the advantage. If you just compare the two by weight though the AC/5 is better. Using them as Field Guns both would weigh 9 tons and have the same range. The HRC still has a greater punch but the AC/5 has more than 3 times the ammo and will ultimately do more damage. The advantage is to the AC. The AC also has an advantage in taking less crits and generating less heat.

Comparing the HRC to the AC/10 though the advantages is more even. Now the HRC weighs less, takes less crits. It also has greater range. Heat is balanced out with tonnage as is the ammo. On the other hand if we use them as Field Guns the Platoon would have 2 AC/10s or 3 HRC. The HRC's would have greater range and be harder to kill but the AC/10's would do more damage and have more ammo to do it with.


Quote
That doesn't mean I think that "modernised" Rifles are broken or anything, I just think they're a little better than ACs, given the same ammo options.(I don't actually think Rifles should get all the ammo options of ACs, but Flak ammo should probably be available at least)

I can see RCs using the different ammo types but the ammo types with reduced shots really limits their use to the lighter cannons or units with large ammo bins.

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #13 on: 14 March 2020, 12:00:55 »
I was only considering a new ammo option so that instead of rewriting the rules of the whole thing, this new Rifle ammo would allow them to operate without their classic deficit.  I had not considered allowing them the other AC ammo types at all, though I do agree that if they had any of the alternate AC ammo types, only the Flak should be considered (ala the Boffers), even though the tanks of even the 80s had different ammo types in their bins.
The Bofors (and most other AA guns, especially small-caliber ones) are fully automatic and would be best represented by an autocannon like an AC/2 or AC/5 anyways.  The rifle cannons sound a lot more like they're meant to represent modern tank-style cannons like the Royal Ordnance L7 and Rheinmetall Rh-120, which wouldn't really have the tracking ability or the elevation range to do real AA work.  If you were to give rifle cannons alternative ammo types, I wouldn't really go with flak ammo.  Maybe flechettes and smoke?

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #14 on: 14 March 2020, 12:35:37 »
Every cannon-like weapon should at least have smoke.

Talen5000

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #15 on: 14 March 2020, 13:08:51 »
Just a quick, simple question, should the Light, Medium, and Heavy Rifle which loses almost all its damage to Standard Armor be reviewed and upgraded (even if it is just an ammo version with a BV cost) so that one could apply their full damage without consideration of the armor any more than an autocannon?

How would such a change affect your builds if it was?

Actually, no - I think the only thing missing is a "Very Light Rifle"  - 3-4.5 Tons, with 40 shots per ton and which does zero damage even to primitive armour - to mimic todays weaponry. Something which might be useful on militia or pacification units but which is utterly worthless in front line units.

The canon rifle then become an attempt to keep the technology useful by increasing the mass of the ammo, before eventually failing amnd being superceded by the autocannon.

About the only other change acceptable woudl be the use of alternate munitions and even tube fired missiles.
« Last Edit: 14 March 2020, 13:13:42 by Talen5000 »
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Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #16 on: 14 March 2020, 13:17:34 »
With the BAR system in place, there's no reason for zero damage weapons.  Just assign them a penetration of BAR 4 or so.

TigerShark

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #17 on: 14 March 2020, 18:09:22 »
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds (AMP)
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds, or AMP, are used exclusively by the primitive, Rifle-type weapons (Heavy, Medium, or Light Rifle). AMP functions exactly as standard ammunition for the Rifle, except that it inflicts full damage to BAR10 ('Mech-grade) armor. However, due to the weight of the depleted uranium shell and additional propellant, the ammunition bin size for each ton of ammunition is reduced by half (round down).
« Last Edit: 14 March 2020, 18:16:51 by TigerShark »
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Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #18 on: 14 March 2020, 18:12:58 »
+1 for that!  :thumbsup:

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #19 on: 14 March 2020, 18:44:45 »
I was only considering a new ammo option so that instead of rewriting the rules of the whole thing, this new Rifle ammo would allow them to operate without their classic deficit.  I had not considered allowing them the other AC ammo types at all, though I do agree that if they had any of the alternate AC ammo types, only the Flak should be considered (ala the Boffers), even though the tanks of even the 80s had different ammo types in their bins.

actually, Flak would be the LAST type of round I'd consider for a modernised Rifle. 

Cannister is more likely (xd6 damage vs. platoons of light infantry), or incendiary/incendiary smoke rounds, or an area-burst HE round are likely options.  FLAK, however, relies on high rates of fire, which these by definition do NOT have.
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Charistoph

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #20 on: 14 March 2020, 18:55:03 »
actually, Flak would be the LAST type of round I'd consider for a modernised Rifle. 

Cannister is more likely (xd6 damage vs. platoons of light infantry), or incendiary/incendiary smoke rounds, or an area-burst HE round are likely options.  FLAK, however, relies on high rates of fire, which these by definition do NOT have.

WW2 FLAK were actually quite slow-firing compared to other AA options, though, they were faster than a tank usually fired.  On the other hand, FLAK wasn't intended to be accurate like the direct-fire weapons, but create a cloud of damage in an area of the sky.  That's were the term FLAK came from was the 88mm gun of the same name.  So actually using a Rifle or Autocannon for FLAK is 100% accurate, albeit oddly equally useless against anything that would normally use the altitude map.

Also interesting is the fact that one of the best anti-tank guns of WW2 started out its career as an AA weapon.  This became less effective with jets as it was easier to create a stream of lead for them to fly through, and then have rockets with superior speed and maneuverability handle the job.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #21 on: 14 March 2020, 18:55:59 »
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds (AMP)
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds, or AMP, are used exclusively by the primitive, Rifle-type weapons (Heavy, Medium, or Light Rifle). AMP functions exactly as standard ammunition for the Rifle, except that it inflicts full damage to BAR10 ('Mech-grade) armor. However, due to the weight of the depleted uranium shell and additional propellant, the ammunition bin size for each ton of ammunition is reduced by half (round down).

I like this basis, it ends up being balanced even if you don't include the ding to your accuracy that AP rounds from Autocannons have to deal with-because it's not being mechanically shaken like a martini every time you discharge it the way armor piercing autocannon rounds do.

Let's add a bit of fun though:

Incendiary Smoke : Inflicts D6/2 heat (minimum 1, maximum 3) to units in the same hex as the target, except unarmored infantry, which takes 1D6 casualties per turn in that hex due to the effects of breathing white phosphorous/Thermite Plasma byproducts.  hex is on fire for 1D6 rounds. (damage to infantry inflicted during the heat phase and continues until the smoke/fire runs out.) Round count: standard per ton.

Cannister Inflicts 3D6 infantry casualties immediately, submunitions left behind inflict 1D6-1 infantry casualties until cleared (no impact on armored units or Mechanized infantry) Round count: Standard per ton

High Explosive/Clearance negligible effect on 'mechs, but can clear woods or rubble one level per hit, may be aimed at specific hexes, clears minefields on 10,11, or 12 on 2D6. (Round count: 1/2 per ton)

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Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #22 on: 14 March 2020, 18:58:56 »
WW2 FLAK were actually quite slow-firing compared to other AA options, though, they were faster than a tank usually fired.  On the other hand, FLAK wasn't intended to be accurate like the direct-fire weapons, but create a cloud of damage in an area of the sky.  That's were the term FLAK came from was the 88mm gun of the same name.  So actually using a Rifle or Autocannon for FLAK is 100% accurate, albeit oddly equally useless against anything that would normally use the altitude map.

Also interesting is the fact that one of the best anti-tank guns of WW2 started out its career as an AA weapon.  This became less effective with jets as it was easier to create a stream of lead for them to fly through, and then have rockets with superior speed and maneuverability handle the job.

The Flak-88 was a superb antitank gun, and completely useless against aircraft of the time.  (as were most of its peers).  Effective antiair weapons were fully automatic rapid fire weapons like the Bofors 40mm, .50 caliber, and the 20mm Oerlikon.  One of the short-lived postwar developments was a 75mm antiair gun that was, for a time, th world's LARGEST machine-gun.
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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #23 on: 14 March 2020, 19:09:01 »
The Flak-88 was a superb antitank gun, and completely useless against aircraft of the time.  (as were most of its peers).  Effective antiair weapons were fully automatic rapid fire weapons like the Bofors 40mm, .50 caliber, and the 20mm Oerlikon.  One of the short-lived postwar developments was a 75mm antiair gun that was, for a time, th world's LARGEST machine-gun.
It's not that cut-and-dry. The Bofors was a great gun (and extremely numerous), but by no means the "best." Gound-based AA was, in general, ineffective in WWII as a whole. The most-useful guns (IMO) were mounted on naval vessels, since massed waves of fighters directly firing at your ship were easier to hit than high-altitude bombers.
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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #24 on: 14 March 2020, 22:42:25 »
It's not that cut-and-dry. The Bofors was a great gun (and extremely numerous), but by no means the "best." Gound-based AA was, in general, ineffective in WWII as a whole. The most-useful guns (IMO) were mounted on naval vessels, since massed waves of fighters directly firing at your ship were easier to hit than high-altitude bombers.

Not to mention, the Bofors 40mm of WW2 was not really a machine gun, but a high-rate of fire cannon (about 2 shots per second) and used explosive shells just like the FLAK 88.  Those big black clouds one sees erupting in the air against aircraft in WW2 movies were all based on those principles.  The same principles were also used with the 5" guns on destroyers of that era as well, though they fired a much lower rate of fire at the time.

But as aircraft sped up and could start hitting from beyond visual range, they were slowly phased out, though some still exist here and there and can still be useful against NOE craft like helicopters.

So, yeah, FLAK ammo on Rifles would make sense, but they would be limited to what would basically be on the map itself.  Not really touching the altitude map with the aerospace fighters, but really good at taking out VTOLs.
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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #25 on: 14 March 2020, 22:50:38 »
The big flak guns like the Flak 88 and its peers would probably be better represented by artillery doing AA attacks like Thumpers and Long Toms anyways.  Rifle cannons, not so much.

As far as the anti-aircraft weapon effectiveness or the lack thereof is concerned, on the Pacific front the 5" dual-purpose guns were credited with about 1/3rd of all naval-based AA kills, with the 40mm credited with another 1/3rd and smaller calibre AA arrays (20mm, .50 cal, etc) taking the last 1/3rd.  It's not a bad take, considering the smaller cannons are far more numerous on naval vessels.

Anyways, one of primary reasons to have AA in the first place is to disrupt, rather than outright destroy, other aircraft, since it's a lot easier to dive bomb and strafe boats that aren't shooting back.  That advantage isn't really represented in Battletech, unless you count those lawn-dart checks (I don't).

kindalas

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #26 on: 14 March 2020, 23:13:22 »
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds (AMP)
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds, or AMP, are used exclusively by the primitive, Rifle-type weapons (Heavy, Medium, or Light Rifle). AMP functions exactly as standard ammunition for the Rifle, except that it inflicts full damage to BAR10 ('Mech-grade) armor. However, due to the weight of the depleted uranium shell and additional propellant, the ammunition bin size for each ton of ammunition is reduced by half (round down).

I'd use this but not cut the ammo amount in half.

I'd boost the price for RPG/Campaign play.

But I also give autocannons +3, +2 and +1 damage to the AC 2/5/10 and I'm toying with giving that boos to ALL derivative models.

But I am dubious of giving the RAC5 a potential of 42 damage.


But even with the removal of the damage reduction from advanced armor I don't think that Cannons infringe on Autocannons.

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #27 on: 15 March 2020, 00:42:27 »
Not to mention, the Bofors 40mm of WW2 was not really a machine gun, but a high-rate of fire cannon (about 2 shots per second) and used explosive shells just like the FLAK 88.  Those big black clouds one sees erupting in the air against aircraft in WW2 movies were all based on those principles.  The same principles were also used with the 5" guns on destroyers of that era as well, though they fired a much lower rate of fire at the time.

But as aircraft sped up and could start hitting from beyond visual range, they were slowly phased out, though some still exist here and there and can still be useful against NOE craft like helicopters.

So, yeah, FLAK ammo on Rifles would make sense, but they would be limited to what would basically be on the map itself.  Not really touching the altitude map with the aerospace fighters, but really good at taking out VTOLs.

"effective'"?  think about your comparisons here.

WW2 (and mainly pre-1937 designs at that) aircraft (like the Mitusbishi A6M "year Zero" fighter) were thin-skinned, slow-moving (less than 500 mph in level flight at TOP speed) machines.  automatic cannon fire has proven "less than effective" against even very OLD jets in the modern age, and single cannon fire went out in the 1940s to 1950s.  (They weren't trying to use 103mm long-tube guns to shoot down those B-52s over Hanoi for a reason.)

"rifle cannons" are not even self-loading weapons, much less rapid-fire self-loading weapons that can track in on a target and bracket it.

It would be like trying to shoot skeet with a bolt-action single-shot, or a martini-greener, only the skeet is coming in fast-moving pairs and missing means getting hit with 500 pound bombs.

On the 5" Dual Purpose guns: They were effective mainly because the horizon is far away, the enemy has to get within easy range, and you have a long time to aim.  (you know, they're flying at 5000 feet over a perfectly flat surface with no obscuring terrain to disrupt the shot, slow enough that your crews can load and fire more than a single round...manually.)

Flak guns made lots of dangerous smoke, and did chip away at thin-skinned, unarmored, lightly built aircraft running between 200 and 400 miles an hour at 20,000 feet, in a straight line, in large formations.  They did...less well...against low-flying aircraft like Tomahawks over North Africa, or those bastard soviet birds with the heavy protection on the Eastern Front.

but in either case, they were ONLY effective when used in large numbers at obvious targets.  One of the reasons for the Schilka or similar AA machinegun mounts, is that they can put up a cloud very quickly, and track in on a target using fire.  (also one of the reasons the Partisan AA tank in game has FOUR Autocannon 5's)

we're talking analog of a TANK cannon here-as in the modern ones, like the 105mm or 120mm Rhinemetall, firing a single shot from each pull of the trigger before needing to reload/have the loader load it/use the swing arm to load it, not a gun that fires like a bofors, with 2 to 5 round bursts.

Proportionally, FLAK ammo would be just about useless against a flying or fast-moving target, though it might work fine against a Yellowjacket, since that thing flies slower than most automobiles drive.  (60 KPH isn't very fast, and 90 is slower than most freeway drivers will drive).

per the conversion formula, a Yellowjacket's TOP SPEED, is 55 miles an hour.  That's going balls-out, hell bent for leather, risking violent sideslip, 55 miles an hour.

There were light observer planes in WW2 that were faster, and that's prop-driven taildraggers.
« Last Edit: 15 March 2020, 00:47:59 by Cannonshop »
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RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #28 on: 15 March 2020, 04:33:58 »
Actually, no - I think the only thing missing is a "Very Light Rifle"  - 3-4.5 Tons, with 40 shots per ton and which does zero damage even to primitive armour - to mimic todays weaponry. Something which might be useful on militia or pacification units but which is utterly worthless in front line units.

The canon rifle then become an attempt to keep the technology useful by increasing the mass of the ammo, before eventually failing amnd being superceded by the autocannon.

About the only other change acceptable woudl be the use of alternate munitions and even tube fired missiles.

The Light Rifle Cannon does weigh 3 tons. If you include Tank Cannons though the equivalent does go down to 2 tons and has 40 rounds of ammo. The Lightest Tank cannon (37mm) weighs .550 tons with 1000 rounds of ammo. It ends up being equal to a Medium Recoilless Rifle so not much of a threat to Mechs or "Modern" Combat Vehicles.


With the BAR system in place, there's no reason for zero damage weapons.  Just assign them a penetration of BAR 4 or so.

The Penetration Factor is the Armor's BAR so a weapon that does 3 points of damage will damage BAR4 Armor but not get an extra penetrating roll. If the Damage was 5 points though then it would. So against any mechs the Light Rifle Cannon won't get extra penetrating rolls.


Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds (AMP)
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds, or AMP, are used exclusively by the primitive, Rifle-type weapons (Heavy, Medium, or Light Rifle). AMP functions exactly as standard ammunition for the Rifle, except that it inflicts full damage to BAR10 ('Mech-grade) armor. However, due to the weight of the depleted uranium shell and additional propellant, the ammunition bin size for each ton of ammunition is reduced by half (round down).

Part of me likes it although the part about additional propellant bothers me. Too much propellant will damage or destroy the weapon. My headcanon just uses more modern propellant and materials for the shell so that the round does full damage against BAR-10 Armor.


"effective'"?  think about your comparisons here.

WW2 (and mainly pre-1937 designs at that) aircraft (like the Mitusbishi A6M "year Zero" fighter) were thin-skinned, slow-moving (less than 500 mph in level flight at TOP speed) machines.  automatic cannon fire has proven "less than effective" against even very OLD jets in the modern age, and single cannon fire went out in the 1940s to 1950s.  (They weren't trying to use 103mm long-tube guns to shoot down those B-52s over Hanoi for a reason.)

"rifle cannons" are not even self-loading weapons, much less rapid-fire self-loading weapons that can track in on a target and bracket it.

It would be like trying to shoot skeet with a bolt-action single-shot, or a martini-greener, only the skeet is coming in fast-moving pairs and missing means getting hit with 500 pound bombs.

On the 5" Dual Purpose guns: They were effective mainly because the horizon is far away, the enemy has to get within easy range, and you have a long time to aim.  (you know, they're flying at 5000 feet over a perfectly flat surface with no obscuring terrain to disrupt the shot, slow enough that your crews can load and fire more than a single round...manually.)

Flak guns made lots of dangerous smoke, and did chip away at thin-skinned, unarmored, lightly built aircraft running between 200 and 400 miles an hour at 20,000 feet, in a straight line, in large formations.  They did...less well...against low-flying aircraft like Tomahawks over North Africa, or those bastard soviet birds with the heavy protection on the Eastern Front.

but in either case, they were ONLY effective when used in large numbers at obvious targets.  One of the reasons for the Schilka or similar AA machinegun mounts, is that they can put up a cloud very quickly, and track in on a target using fire.  (also one of the reasons the Partisan AA tank in game has FOUR Autocannon 5's)

we're talking analog of a TANK cannon here-as in the modern ones, like the 105mm or 120mm Rhinemetall, firing a single shot from each pull of the trigger before needing to reload/have the loader load it/use the swing arm to load it, not a gun that fires like a bofors, with 2 to 5 round bursts.

Proportionally, FLAK ammo would be just about useless against a flying or fast-moving target, though it might work fine against a Yellowjacket, since that thing flies slower than most automobiles drive.  (60 KPH isn't very fast, and 90 is slower than most freeway drivers will drive).

per the conversion formula, a Yellowjacket's TOP SPEED, is 55 miles an hour.  That's going balls-out, hell bent for leather, risking violent sideslip, 55 miles an hour.

There were light observer planes in WW2 that were faster, and that's prop-driven taildraggers.

Wiki gives the Mitsubishi A6M2 (Type 0 Model 21) Zero a max speed of
533 km/h at a height of 4,550 m. That's 133 km/h faster than the the fastest helicopter now. Wiki has the Westland Lynx being the fastest helicopter at 400.87 km/h.  That works out to 37 hexes a turn. Are there any VTOLs in BT that move that fast? WiGEs? AirMechs?

Since 5 in dual-purpose guns were credited with about 1/3rd of all naval-based AA kills and those aircraft were moving 500 km/h, or faster, I don't think Rifle Cannons would have any problem hitting slower moving VTOLs, or any other slow moving air units.

Also in BT rate of fire isn't everything or other single shot per round weapons wouldn't be used for AA work. After all in BT it doesn't matter if it's a single shot or a 10 round burst. If it hits it does damage. It's the targeting systems that help ensure the round hits. A WWII unit isn't going to have the same targeting system as a mech. Or they shouldn't. I can't find any rules about Infantry targeting modifiers based on tech ratings. So a LRC Field Gun Platoon would have better targeting modifiers than a WWII era tank with no targeting system.






PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #29 on: 15 March 2020, 06:10:12 »
Rifles are just represent lackluster low-tech ballistic weapon. There is really no needs for review that because it is designed to be inferior. Even if you are really want such weapons, you are already have it - it is called autocannon.

Well, we don't need to adjust the damage of crossbows and bows like modern days assault rifle. Bows are low-tech weapon, so it doesn't need to be compete with assault rifles. Rather, if it ISN'T inferior to the rifles something is gone horribly wrong. It must be inefficient because it IS an inefficient weapon in the current timeline.

If you want an inferior weapon but expect something better than rifles, then what about primitive prototype weapons listed in IO?
« Last Edit: 15 March 2020, 06:24:59 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »