Author Topic: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?  (Read 42590 times)

TigerShark

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #30 on: 15 March 2020, 10:39:28 »
Rifles are just represent lackluster low-tech ballistic weapon. There is really no needs for review that because it is designed to be inferior. Even if you are really want such weapons, you are already have it - it is called autocannon.

Well, we don't need to adjust the damage of crossbows and bows like modern days assault rifle. Bows are low-tech weapon, so it doesn't need to be compete with assault rifles. Rather, if it ISN'T inferior to the rifles something is gone horribly wrong. It must be inefficient because it IS an inefficient weapon in the current timeline.

If you want an inferior weapon but expect something better than rifles, then what about primitive prototype weapons listed in IO?
Rambo had explosive-tipped arrows. Just sayin'.
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Talen5000

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #31 on: 15 March 2020, 10:54:26 »
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds (AMP)
Anti-Mech Penetrative Rounds, or AMP, are used exclusively by the primitive, Rifle-type weapons (Heavy, Medium, or Light Rifle). AMP functions exactly as standard ammunition for the Rifle, except that it inflicts full damage to BAR10 ('Mech-grade) armor. However, due to the weight of the depleted uranium shell and additional propellant, the ammunition bin size for each ton of ammunition is reduced by half (round down).

So - only real difference would therefore be additional propelleant, which means a physically larger shell that can't fit into the barrel?

Again, the entire point behind the Rifles was to provide an equivalent of a modern day tank cannon, before it was superceded by the AC. That would include systems such as ETC. There isn't any really obvious way to modify the rifle to become effective save by making it larger and heavier, able to withstand the pressures of firing antiMech capable shells and the larger rifles already deal Mechs scale damage.
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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #32 on: 15 March 2020, 11:07:25 »
Rifles are just represent lackluster low-tech ballistic weapon. There is really no needs for review that because it is designed to be inferior. Even if you are really want such weapons, you are already have it - it is called autocannon.
This thread isn't really about the autocannon, but I don't think ACs were ever intended to be the lackluster ballistic option.  It just kind of happened that way.
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Well, we don't need to adjust the damage of crossbows and bows like modern days assault rifle. Bows are low-tech weapon, so it doesn't need to be compete with assault rifles. Rather, if it ISN'T inferior to the rifles something is gone horribly wrong. It must be inefficient because it IS an inefficient weapon in the current timeline.
That's just silly.  The function of both weapons are fundamentally the same, one just happens to also include a fully automatic reloading system.  They do not, and should not, have nearly as large of a performance gulf as that between crossbows and assault rifles.
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If you want an inferior weapon but expect something better than rifles, then what about primitive prototype weapons listed in IO?
Part of it is to have a more interesting and diverse array of ballistic weapons to choose from.  Reusing the primitive prototype ACs from IO does neither.

Daryk

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TigerShark

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #34 on: 15 March 2020, 15:54:02 »
So - only real difference would therefore be additional propelleant, which means a physically larger shell that can't fit into the barrel?

Again, the entire point behind the Rifles was to provide an equivalent of a modern day tank cannon, before it was superceded by the AC. That would include systems such as ETC. There isn't any really obvious way to modify the rifle to become effective save by making it larger and heavier, able to withstand the pressures of firing antiMech capable shells and the larger rifles already deal Mechs scale damage.
Uranium is 2.4 times heavier than steel, which is what typically what comprises the penetrative part of a tank shell. The uranium shell would be smaller, but the entire round would be the same size. Tanks have this capability today; firing multiple ordinance types from the same barrel.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #35 on: 15 March 2020, 16:40:25 »
So - only real difference would therefore be additional propelleant, which means a physically larger shell that can't fit into the barrel?

Again, the entire point behind the Rifles was to provide an equivalent of a modern day tank cannon, before it was superceded by the AC. That would include systems such as ETC. There isn't any really obvious way to modify the rifle to become effective save by making it larger and heavier, able to withstand the pressures of firing antiMech capable shells and the larger rifles already deal Mechs scale damage.

you can adjust the propellant mix.

You can use a hotter base explosive as propellant for the same volume (this actually has already happened once in reality; the movement from "black" powder to "Smokeless")

change the Ballistic coefficient of the round (Spire-point vs. bottle-nose cartridges)

Change the warhead characteristics of the round (HE vs. DU flechette, cannister vs. HE, and so on)

If a "Rifle" is equivalent to modern Tank Cannons, then "Autocannon" must gain their damage based not on the ballistics of the cartridges, but rather on the characteristics of BV10 armor composites.

we've actually got numbers we can use because of falling damage in a one-gee environment and the effectiveness of melee weapons.  BV10 armor is rigid-load distributing hard material that needs to be repeatedly overwhelmed.  It doesn't have ductility, you can't 'punch a hole' in it-you have to shatter the entire segment by overloading its ability to spread/soak damage.

IOW a bulldozer blade at 15 miles an hour, is as good as a 120mm cannon firing APSDF in 5 round bursts-presuming all 5 rounds hit roughly the same one meter circle.

contrast with modern (1980s) Chobham (IIRC, BV 2 or 3), which will ruin that same bulldozer blade without more than a shallow scratch, but only takes a SINGLE impact from a 120mm APSDF to punch through it at less than 1000 meters.

It's reasonable, then, to consider that an ammunition change MIGHT make a marginal difference in effectiveness up to a certain point, but the EASY answer, is to set up guns to fire long bursts of the same projectiles with MOA accuracy (Possibly limited to how well you can stabilize the barrels and sighting systems) because it's an obvious and direct way to overcome that energy-distribution through 'swamping' the energy absorption/redistribution.  (Effectively, Autocannons "Shake" the armor apart, and the bigger/louder/shorter ranged AC's inflict that 'shake' over a wider area!)

factor in the desire to fit these things into ball-joint mounts of limited space (think: battlemech shoulders), you get the kind of proportional range-drop/damage increase.  (because all your shells are the same length and rough diameter-the only change is smaller propellant charges for larger warhead sizes!)

what do Rifles offer, then?

Within the limitations of what they can deliver (single shots vs. automatic fire or bursts), they can ignore some, all or most of the tertiary design constraints when it comes to munition configuration.  aka they can actually use longer shells, with longer warhead packages, because they aren't trying to feed a high-rate-of-fire mechanism through a ball-joint that's only a meter or two in diameter and has to maintain physical integrity thorugh a wide range of motion while also feeding tht ammo.

because of the nature of those shells, it's not really possible to automate feed the same way-aka you're not going to get bofors-style burst fire, even with a mechanical loader.  Hence, for the same bore diameter and barrel weight, you will get less damage to ARMOR when using the same warhead configuration.

which isn't quite the same thing as the same damage from the same warhead, but your trade is potentially slightly better range and accuracy, and a potentially WIDER set of applications.

How to represent this in-game? simple.  Cannons can't indirect fire, Rifles can. (With the right ammunition.)  Not as powerfully, you're not going to suddenly start dropping ninety meter dinner plates, but with the right ammunition, a Rifle can inflict a couple points of damage AOE to a rubbled hex, clear forest, or deliver an incendiary burst via judicious use of spotters.


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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #36 on: 15 March 2020, 16:47:43 »
Uranium is 2.4 times heavier than steel, which is what typically what comprises the penetrative part of a tank shell. The uranium shell would be smaller, but the entire round would be the same size. Tanks have this capability today; firing multiple ordinance types from the same barrel.
I think the bigger concern might be the propellant part.  One can't go overboard with just adding more propellant to the system, or you risk damaging the gun itself; it has to be able to withstand the heat and pressure of the propellant detonation.  For the 120mm L/44, for instance, the M830 HEAT has a peak chamber pressure of 4800 bars, using 5.4 kgs of propellant.  The M829 APFSDS has nearly 8 kgs of propellant and produces a peak chamber pressure of 5600 bars, and you really can't push the peak pressure much higher than that before you run into issues.

The idea behind the ammo is fine (though I prefer my own implementation).  The description of the ammo brings to mind a rifle version of AP ammo instead of a modernized rifle cannon round though, so it might just be simpler to say that the new ammo uses basically the same ammo as the "new" autocannons use, that HEAP stuff.

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #37 on: 15 March 2020, 16:50:00 »
The AOE bit Cannonshop mentioned reminds me of Artillery Cannons...

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #38 on: 15 March 2020, 18:58:17 »
The AOE bit Cannonshop mentioned reminds me of Artillery Cannons...

kind of where I was going there.  imagine a severely down-scaled artillery cannon, say, with the Light rifle doing 1 point to everything in a given hex (but no splash), Medium doing 2 and heavy doing 3.

similar in execution to the use of HE rounds in indirect support as conducted from the 1940s through the 1980s by tank units.  (notably, the M60, T-55 and similar generation vehicles in the world's conflicts).  It's not the full honk power of a howitzer, but in a pinch? can be decisive in low-intensity environments or asymmetrical conflicts. (say, where you're mostly facing light infantry and technicals)

really it's kind of a missed opportunity by the devs, not including a wide variety of specialty munitions for these 'primitive' weapons, as they're also more PRECISE weapons given the lack of rapid fire, low cost to build and (presumably) maintain, and so on.  Further the lack of some specialty applications also works out: Autocannons 'shake' the target's armor with repeated strikes in order to break the plating, this means an engagement profile completely different from anything you can use a rifled cannon for, with subsequent differences in how you can store and employ munitions.  (aka a rifle cannon equipped vehicle can swap between four or five different ammunition types in the same engagement, from the same ammunition bin, without needing to 'clear the feed' first, since it is NOT a rapid-fire system.)

the downside, naturally, being that you don't carry as many bursts (since you're not carrying bursts) of fire per ton, it has less performance against modern armors, and it's just not as advanced, refined, or widely employed (thus less invested in developing new applications).

the list I offered up earlier, is a pretty short list compared to what is available for the tank gun of the 1970s, or what might be available to an "Artillery cannon" in the 3070s.
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Talen5000

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #39 on: 15 March 2020, 19:25:43 »
Uranium is 2.4 times heavier than steel, which is what typically what comprises the penetrative part of a tank shell. The uranium shell would be smaller, but the entire round would be the same size. Tanks have this capability today; firing multiple ordinance types from the same barrel.

Precisely...it is done today. And there are several mentions of the use of DU in the fiction.

Adding DU to rifles is adding something that has already been done.

Rifles fell out of favour because they became ineffective and in context, that means that the shells couldn't het bigger or faster without damaging the weapon or making it unwieldy. The AC series is what replaced it and any trick you can think of to improve a rifles performance can also be applied to ACs, at which point, the rifles inefficiency makes it in effective.

Same with any improvement in propellant....in universe, any such improvement has been done.
 
Sure, you could probably build a rifle that can do 20 points of damage, but if it needs to weigh 50 tons to deal with the pressure/recoil/temp of actually firing the weapon who would use it?

In short....any effective rifle is going to be do inefficient that it isn't going to be used.
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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #40 on: 15 March 2020, 21:34:06 »
Same with any improvement in propellant....in universe, any such improvement has been done.
Clearly this is not the case, else there would be no improvements in Battletech's timeline since the dawn of the Battlemech.  But there have been plenty.

For propellant only there includes:
  • Electromagnetically propulsion for ferrous slugs (Gauss Rifles)
  • An unnamed unique propellant that produces so much smoke as to fill an entire hex behind the unit (HVACs)
  • Controlled plasma explosions to launch a shell (NACs)

There were large improvements in materials and metallurgy as well:
  • Drastically improved BAR 10 primitive armor replaced lower BAR armors
  • Standard armor replaced primitive armor as a lighter-weight alternative
  • Ferro-fibrous variants supplement Standard as even lighter alternatives
  • Endo-steel, Endo-Composite and Composite structures supplement standard as lighter structural alternatives
This isn't completely academic.  The LB-X autocannon is explicitly fluffed to use endo-steel as part of its construction.

Precisely how invested are you in this debate point?  If tomorrow there's a TRO:3175 that introduces an update of the rifle cannons, modernized with endo-steel components, advanced propellant and shells lifted off the Autocannon, would it break your suspension of disbelief as "any such improvements have already been done?"  What about (yet another) advanced armor type?  Would that be feasible avenue of improvement, or is that another dead end?

Personally, I'd be rather perplexed if technology continued to advance in every single area in Battletech except for propellant and other areas that would improve Rifle Cannons.

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #41 on: 15 March 2020, 23:16:28 »
Older weapons can be improved on. Some like explosive arrows aren't really new. They existed in history. They've just received an upgrade. A compound bow  make with more modern explosives is more effective than old bows and gunpowder. Smokeless gun powder allowed less powder to be used for the same range without a big smoke cloud. Composites make the weapons lighter. There's no reason the same couldn't be applied to Rifle Cannons.

More advanced materials could make the cannons stronger for the same weight. That added strength would allow for a similar amount of propellant to be used for the rounds to hit harder and do more damage. Or less could be used to increase the amount of ammo carried which would give the same results as now.

As to saying use use Autocannons. I think AC's and RC's are like LRMs and Thunderbolts. ACs and LRMs fire a lot of small rounds. Thunderbolts and RC fire bigger rounds to accomplish the same results. An in universe example would be the Avalon Slugger Heavy Rifle and the Crusher SH Cannon AC/20. Both 150mm. The HRC fires a single round. The AC/20 fires a 10 round burst.
The HRC does 9 points of damage per round. The AC/20 does 2 points of damage per round and its all 10 rounds hitting that brings the damage total to 20. The Rifle Cannons fire single bigger rounds to do damage while the Autocannons rely on multiple smaller rounds hitting to do damage. Just like LRMs and Thunderbolt Missiles. Thunderbolts fire single bigger missiles and the LRMs reply on multiple smaller missiles.

When I think about it this way, I have zero problem ignoring the -3 penalty. There's also the fact that Rifle Cannons are the only pre-spaceflight weapon treated like this. Plus RC still do full damage to Battle Armor which can carry a full ton of modern armor. It doesn't make sense to give a -3 damage penalty to a mech but not a BA. I can see removing the extra penetrating hit for the HRC hitting BAR-8 armor but not that and the -3 damage.

Talen5000

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #42 on: 16 March 2020, 00:57:06 »
More advanced materials could make the cannons stronger for the same weight. That added strength would allow for a similar amount of propellant to be used for the rounds to hit harder and do more damage. Or less could be used to increase the amount of ammo carried which would give the same results as now.

And those same materials and techniques could then be applied to ACs, meaning any increase in Rifle effectiveness is matched and outdone by the AC.

ACs are superior to Rifles....more effective, more efficient. You say there is no reason to suggest improvements couldn't be made to Rifles? What makes you think they haven't?

Rifles work the way they do because they were meant to show the superiority of ACs and show why the tank cannon of today faded away. If you want a Rifle that van damage Mech scale armour, there is the Heavy.
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RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #43 on: 16 March 2020, 06:49:52 »
And those same materials and techniques could then be applied to ACs, meaning any increase in Rifle effectiveness is matched and outdone by the AC.

To start they already have. Being able to fire a burst of ten, 150mm rounds in 10 seconds takes a lot of strength. It takes even more strength to be able to rapid fire 20 rounds in the same time period. And improvements have been made to Auocannons already. We have Improved Autocannons, Ultra Autocannons (IS + Clan), LB-X Autocannons (IS + Clan), Light Autocannons, ProtoMech Autocannons, Rotary Autocannons (IS + Clan), and Hyper Velocity Autocannons.


Quote
ACs are superior to Rifles....more effective, more efficient. You say there is no reason to suggest improvements couldn't be made to Rifles? What makes you think they haven't?

I agree. They are and nothings going to change that. But that doesn't mean Rifle Cannons should suck. I'd also say that they haven't been improved as they're Pre-Spaceflight weapons. Metallurgy and such might have changed but for all intense and purposes they're still Pre-Spaceflight weapons.


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Rifles work the way they do because they were meant to show the superiority of ACs and show why the tank cannon of today faded away. If you want a Rifle that van damage Mech scale armour, there is the Heavy.

And I believe the argument for "upgrading" Rifle Cannons is that they've been over nerfed. An AC/5 is still going to outclass a Heavy Rifle Cannon because it has far more ammo. Having the HRC do a full 9 points of damage to BAR-8-10 Armors really won't change anything. Not even keeping the extra penetrating critical hit roll against BAR-8 armor won't change things. 3 points of damage isn't much on the grand scale of things and there's still just 6 shots. And how many units use BAR-8 Armor to get that extra penetration?

It's like asking which is better, a 12.7mm Machine Gun or a 12.7mm Sniper Rifle? Both fire the same round. Both will make big holes in people. Only they're made for different purposes. One to kill lots of people as fast as possible other to kill individuals at a distance.


PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #44 on: 16 March 2020, 08:11:03 »
This thread isn't really about the autocannon, but I don't think ACs were ever intended to be the lackluster ballistic option.  It just kind of happened that way.

ACs are not intended to be lackluster, but rifle is.

That's just silly.  The function of both weapons are fundamentally the same, one just happens to also include a fully automatic reloading system.  They do not, and should not, have nearly as large of a performance gulf as that between crossbows and assault rifles.


Rifle is there for how useless old school ballistic against modern armor. Just like we, humans in 21th century, views 12th century cannon with primitive black powder and loose barrel.

Think about it. Our race can make such old cannons at ease, but our military on today never use that except for ceremony practice, because it is simply inferior to 21th cutting-edge smoothbore tank guns.

You can make it better. You can make it more durable and accurate as much as current tank guns, if you bring some good techs of tank guns. But will you guarantee that it is still an old school gun? Nope. The end result IS no more than a cutting-edge smoothbore gun just like what our military uses. Then why we need to call it as an old gun? Rather it is simply classified by an another kind of modern days gun.

It is all the same. You can make the rifles better, but I bet that you end up with making an autocannon or some sort. Even if it is not the autocannon, I can name some other weapons that is resemble to the creation - artillery cannon or 'heavy rifle' if it is still weak.

Part of it is to have a more interesting and diverse array of ballistic weapons to choose from.  Reusing the primitive prototype ACs from IO does neither.

Well, but autocannons are actually an improved product from the rifles so why not? It is a proud successor of rifle.


-------------------

The only possible alternative would be 'huge' rifle. Just make a bigger version of heavy rifle seems not so strange, even consider their primitive tech level. At first there are tube artilleries and artillery guns so make the huge gun is not that strange.
« Last Edit: 16 March 2020, 08:18:00 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

killfr3nzy

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #45 on: 16 March 2020, 09:22:29 »
The Light Rifle Cannon does weigh 3 tons. If you include Tank Cannons though the equivalent does go down to 2 tons and has 40 rounds of ammo. The Lightest Tank cannon (37mm) weighs .550 tons with 1000 rounds of ammo. It ends up being equal to a Medium Recoilless Rifle so not much of a threat to Mechs or "Modern" Combat Vehicles.

Whoa whoa, hold up.

I'm guessing this BA MRR-equivalent comes from the WWII TRO? Never paid much attention to it, but now I'm thinking I should have.
Because a 'Mech LMG that does triple the armour damage, and possibly more AI damage with BA-style HE ammunition, sound dope as heck; goodbye machineguns, hello retrotech tank cannons!

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #46 on: 16 March 2020, 12:05:06 »
Whoa whoa, hold up.

I'm guessing this BA MRR-equivalent comes from the WWII TRO? Never paid much attention to it, but now I'm thinking I should have.
Because a 'Mech LMG that does triple the armour damage, and possibly more AI damage with BA-style HE ammunition, sound dope as heck; goodbye machineguns, hello retrotech tank cannons!

Not really. According to old fluff Battletech Companion BA Recoilless Rifles are just "standard recoilless rifles that have been adapted for use on Battle Armor." There's also old rules Combat Equipment that converted RPG weapons to Battletech that had Infantry Recoilless Rifles doing the same damage as their Battle Armor counterparts. Total Warfare changed that. :( 

Now XTRO:1945 is a lot more recent but it also has conversions for use with "Modern Units". Each of the weapons lists an equivalent Battletech weapon.  Basically ranges and damage get changed, drastically. That's where you get a 37mm Tank Cannon being equivalent to Infantry Medium Rifles. And yes, it is the Infantry version. It'd be nice if it were the BA version but as it is, it already does more damage than the 75mm Tank Cannon which is equivalent to a Light Recoilless Rifle. The .57 damage rounds up to 1 point of damage. Even against Mechs. The LRC has it's damage reduced to 0 against Mechs. So I wouldn't go crazy with Tank Cannons just yet. Although I do use them just to have something different.

As for Machine Guns, I've read that they're like BT versions of the GAU-8 Avenger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger That makes sense given some of the fluff for MGs they do range from 20m-30mm gattling guns. A MG burst does 1-3 points of damage depending on the size. The same size Fighter Cannon (20mm-30mm) will do .48-53 points per round, with the .53 rounding up to 1. That is very similar to how Rifle Cannons and Autocannons work.

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #47 on: 16 March 2020, 12:49:14 »
And those same materials and techniques could then be applied to ACs, meaning any increase in Rifle effectiveness is matched and outdone by the AC.

ACs are superior to Rifles....more effective, more efficient. You say there is no reason to suggest improvements couldn't be made to Rifles? What makes you think they haven't?

Rifles work the way they do because they were meant to show the superiority of ACs and show why the tank cannon of today faded away. If you want a Rifle that van damage Mech scale armour, there is the Heavy.
Again, many of the improvements in materials in the Battletech timeline arrived at a time when the Rifle Cannons were virtually extinct.  It's perfectly reasonable to assume that rifle cannons did not take advantage of Endo-Steel when the two technologies did not coexist at the same time.

Realistically, not every improvement to rifle cannons can be applied to autocannons, as the autocannon inherently has additional design limitations, of weight and space of the feeding mechanisms and additional dimensional restraints that has to be applied to the supplied ammunition.  There's also extra heat dissipation & thermal stress issues that a rapid-firing autocannon necessarily suffers from far more than a manually-loaded or an auto-loading conventional cannon.  Cannonshop did a pretty good job illustrating many of the autocannon's limitations earlier in the thread.

Ultimately, ACs are currently better than rifle cannons because of an out-of-universe reason: Autocannons were in Battletech first.  The Rifle Cannons simply didn't exist in the BT universe at the time while dozens and dozens of vehicles and Battlemechs were equipped with autocannons.  Once they were introduced, Battletech was already well established, so they were introduced with stats roughly worse than current autocannons as a post-hoc justification to rifle cannons not maintaining any significant presence in the setting.

But there's nothing fundamental about Battletech's setting that says Rifle Cannons should be a hopelessly obsolete weapon system.  Battletech is not about Autocannons being better than conventional cannons.  Battletech is about a bunch of angry Great Houses and a few plucky mercenaries sparring each other in Big Stompy Robots.  It's still Battletech whether the commander's ride sports a big Autocannon or a big Rifle Cannon.
Rifle is there for how useless old school ballistic against modern armor. Just like we, humans in 21th century, views 12th century cannon with primitive black powder and loose barrel.

Think about it. Our race can make such old cannons at ease, but our military on today never use that except for ceremony practice, because it is simply inferior to 21th cutting-edge smoothbore tank guns.

You can make it better. You can make it more durable and accurate as much as current tank guns, if you bring some good techs of tank guns. But will you guarantee that it is still an old school gun? Nope. The end result IS no more than a cutting-edge smoothbore gun just like what our military uses. Then why we need to call it as an old gun? Rather it is simply classified by an another kind of modern days gun.

It is all the same. You can make the rifles better, but I bet that you end up with making an autocannon or some sort. Even if it is not the autocannon, I can name some other weapons that is resemble to the creation - artillery cannon or 'heavy rifle' if it is still weak.
I presume you're referring to the old muzzle-loaded black powder stuff like on old 17th century ship-of-the-lines?

The problem with comparing those to 21st century 120mm Smoothbores, and saying "it's the same" is that the difference between ancient black-powder muzzle-loaders and modern smoothbore breech-loaders are revolutionary, and the difference between the rifle cannon and the autocannon is not.  There's fundamental differences with the ancient cannons, notably the muzzle loading thing, that is inferior in design to the modern rifle's implementation (breech-loaded) which prevents the ancient cannon from ever being on par with a modern Smoothbore.

There's no clear fundamental difference between modern cannons and BT's take on autocannons.  The fluff on the standard Autocannon could easily fool you into thinking the article was about real-life autocannons, if not for the references to Battletech and a non-existent HEAP shell.  Real-life autocannons certainly aren't anywhere close to replacing conventional cannons, as introducing an automatic loading mechanism has fundamental design trade-offs, notably in weight, space, and constricting ammunition design.

Unless there was some unobtanium introduced in Battletech that allows their Autocannon's ammo feed remove its negative design tradeoffs (there isn't), going automatic is still a significant design tradeoff, so there's not really a good (in-universe) reason for ACs to completely replace the rifle cannons, as those would keep certain niches.
Well, but autocannons are actually an improved product from the rifles so why not? It is a proud successor of rifle.
Re-read my post, important parts emphasized:
Quote
Part of it is to have a more interesting and diverse array of ballistic weapons to choose from.  Reusing the primitive prototype ACs from IO does neither.

The only possible alternative would be 'huge' rifle. Just make a bigger version of heavy rifle seems not so strange, even consider their primitive tech level. At first there are tube artilleries and artillery guns so make the huge gun is not that strange.
Nah, there's more alternatives.  Alternative ammo and removal of the -3 damage penalty were two that were posted here already.  I've already experimented with reform of the rifle cannons, with pretty good results.

(Since we're talking about rifle cannon changes I may as well do a shameless self-plug)
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67524.0

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #48 on: 16 March 2020, 13:25:19 »
Why -3 damage is need to be removed? Unless you are redefine the modern armor in battletech universe, it is unlikely happens.

If you need a better rifle, then you can just make the more powerful one instead, that surely mitigate -3 damage penalty.

Charistoph

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #49 on: 16 March 2020, 13:58:59 »
Would some also consider a reduction in accuracy ala MRMs as opposed to the negative to damage?

This would represent the single-fire capability of the weapon versus the multi-round capacity that the autocannons represent.
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Retry

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #50 on: 16 March 2020, 14:04:08 »
Why -3 damage is need to be removed?
That's... what the thread's about.
From the OP:
Quote
Would having these Rifles do normal damage make Autocannons useless, or would it just open up a new brand of equipment options to work with.
I claim removing the -3 damage penalty would cause the latter effect.
Unless you are redefine the modern armor in battletech universe, it is unlikely happens.
The Battletech timeline moves slowly and rarely ever ret-cons things, so there's no chance that the rifle cannons actually get changed, and they certainly wouldn't change it based on the debate of some random forumites.

Still, this is Fan Designs and we're allowed to debate whether or not certain changes or house rules would be beneficial to make.  A man can dream.
If you need a better rifle, then you can just make the more powerful one instead, that surely mitigate -3 damage penalty.
You could invent a better rifle with new stats, call it the "advanced rifle", and spec out everything from the ground up, from the C-Bills and BV to the weight, space, range, heat, damage, introduction date....

Or...

...you could just remove the low-hanging fruit that is the -3 damage penalty and avoid having to reinvent the wheel and add bloat to the equipment roster.  Way easier.
Would some also consider a reduction in accuracy ala MRMs as opposed to the negative to damage?

This would represent the single-fire capability of the weapon versus the multi-round capacity that the autocannons represent.
I have considered it, but I found it wasn't necessary.
« Last Edit: 16 March 2020, 14:11:10 by Retry »

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #51 on: 16 March 2020, 14:58:33 »
Would some also consider a reduction in accuracy ala MRMs as opposed to the negative to damage?

This would represent the single-fire capability of the weapon versus the multi-round capacity that the autocannons represent.

a reduction in accuracy would be more Fasa-Fiziks and draw more derision.  See, the problem is, the reducing range of BT Autocannons (2s shoot further than 5, 5 shoots further than 10, 10 further than 20) has already been explained by the "Automatic" side of the ledger (having to group multiple shots to inflict damage, requiring faster firing rates, which tends to spread groupings OUT, via vibration and such)

which actually does fit with wht can be seen in practice.  Ceterus paribus, your grouping spreads out with multiple shots on a single pull of the trigger-this is a mechanical effect (You can thank friction and vibration for it.)

The most ACCURATE long range fire comes from single shot weapons (all other factors being equal).

most full-auto fire does not group tightly, this is actually how suppressing fire and beaten zones are even possible with tripod mounted machine guns.

MRMs are inaccurate, because they lack this thing called a 'guidance system' (same problem Rockets have in the setting.)

why? because rocket-propelled weapons have a tendency to  wander without active guidance, and do so randomly.

to a pretty extreme degree.  (See the actual-factual Gyrojets actually produced in actual reality, or look at the range profile of a LAW, or RPG round)

in the case of Rifles, you're more likely to see an accuracy bonus, because once you've got target lock, you're only sending one package down range and unless your engineering staff were dropping acid and smoking pot the day they designed your targeting system, it's going to correct for motion, angle, and parallax much the way the system on the Abams does.

meaning, proportionally, very precise shots as soon as the reticle turns green.

'very precise' is very relative on that scale, be mindful, an infantry rifle has a bore/length ratio of several hundred diameters of the bullet, while most tank cannons (aka 'rifles' on a vehicle) are more proportional to what you'd find in a service pistol (at best a few tens to just under a hundred.)

this has an impact on precision range.  as does the proportional thickness of barrel walls (and thus, the pressure a barrel can contain using a given alloy with a given propellant.)

aka the 120 smoothbore on your Abrams actually has a pretty slow muzzle velocity, but then, a barrel scaled to the same proprtions as your Springfield is going to be virtually too heavy to mount on anything but a coastal or naval mount.

barrel thickness,incidentally, tends to damp vibration as well as acting as a heat sink, so the need for advanced materials is probably a good starting point if you have a shop working on an improved Rifled cannon.


which unlike some here, I can see as being something not only acceptable in-setting, but inevitable.  Just as long as it's not the damned Clans who are doing it, because frankly, the whole "Inner sphere is defined as slower, heavier imitation of the Clans who do everything, including things they don't want to do, better than the inner sphere who DO want to do those things" to be..well, pathetic and unnecessary.

There OUGHT to be, at least by 3100, some things the IS does outright better, or only the inner sphere does, and this is one where it's possible even a minor periphery power could pull off a tech-coup.  Maybe by taking HVAC ammo, coupling it to a chassis that will NOT explode from the vibrations because it only fires single shots and dissipates its heat efficiently by NOT piling huge numbers of shots through the same barrel as fast as the action can cycle using propellant gas and/or recoil.

IOW, a Heavy rifle, does 8 or 9 damage to BAR 10, with AC/5 ranges, and doesn't self explode randomly.

but you take a hit to ammunition capacity, and maybe it sucks ass against flying objects and can't be mounted on a 'mech because it needs a loader technician to keep it fed...but it has its own 'specialty' rounds that are generally more useful against vehicles and infantry while being LESS useful against 'mechs and Battlesuits.

a weapon that ends up requiring its own tactical menu to use, oen that isn't as widely applicable to EVERY force in EVERY situation. (aka not mounted on asf, not mounted on 'mechs, or rarely mounted on mechs because the damn thing SUCKS compared to 'mech weapons on 'mechs.)

My suggested direction of development?

Endo-Steel barrel and breech, possibly with a layer of armor composite wrapping the breech block, a 2 pip penalty against flying targets due to the nature of the weapon (making it difficult to use even against a Yellowjacket), but a bonus against ground-bound targets, It can fire indirect but the damage is LOW and only impacts a single hex using a specific ammunition type that costs mass and space to carry.

for example:

AOE rounds (Thermite plasma and/or some inferno equivalent) will most certainly cook anything with exposed skin, including mechanized infantry that aren't environmentally sealed, but has little to no impact on even cheap PAL suits.

Firecracker/Cannister: shreds infantry (1, 2, or 3 D6 out to range vs. unarmored infantry),  leaves a 1D6 point minefield that only affects infantry in that hex or crossing that hex. (toe poppers).

HE: a 1 (light), 2 (medium) or 3 (Heavy) point pain maker in a targeted hex when fired indirectly (at plus four, minus one for each spotter, maximum of 3 spotters).  Certainly enough to fry a foot or motorized platoon,b ut the fragments will be shrugged off by Mechanized or Battlesuited infantry without issue. (Since, after all, they're protected from shock and splinters to a certain extent.)  HOwever, it does a GREAT job of clearing woods or reducing /creating rubbled terrain.

HVAP:  does full rifle damage vs. 'mechs and BA out to range when fired directly.  However, you have fewer shots, thus fewer chances to DO that damage, and various NEW armors reduce it.  (hardened, Ferro-Lamellor, and so on.)

likely creators:

Taurian Concordat
Magistracy of Canopus
Cappellan Confederation.

C-bill cost: same as an AC/5.

capabilities: may fire indirect out to effective range with the aid of a spotter, may be linked to a targeting computer, ammo reduction is due to bulk-the ammo itself is BULKY, if permitted on 'mechs and ASF's, one ton takes up 2, 3, or 4 critical spaces. (Light, Medium, or Heavy), and CASE for it weighs twice as much to cover the needed additional volume on a 'mech or ASF. (thus continuing the trend of "you can do it, but it's not a good idea" technologies applied to 'mechs and ASF.)

Crit spaces: Light occupies the same crit spaces as an Ultra 2, Medium the same as an Ultra 5, Heavy the same as an Ultra 20.  (thus, making it REALLY not a good idea to mount on a 'mech!!)  On vehicles, only counts as a single item.



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Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #52 on: 16 March 2020, 17:42:53 »
*snip*
As for Machine Guns, I've read that they're like BT versions of the GAU-8 Avenger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger That makes sense given some of the fluff for MGs they do range from 20m-30mm gattling guns. A MG burst does 1-3 points of damage depending on the size. The same size Fighter Cannon (20mm-30mm) will do .48-53 points per round, with the .53 rounding up to 1. That is very similar to how Rifle Cannons and Autocannons work.
I've actually seen them as more GAU-19s, with heavy MGs being the six-barreled kind...

Light MGs are pretty well represented by the M2HB.

Wolf72

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #53 on: 16 March 2020, 18:30:38 »
holy-moly that's a lot of discussion ...

I was going to toss in wanting to see more (craptacular, but not un-cool) Rifles:

The assault rifle: A heavier heavy rifle that can do a 3 round burst ... def gonna to carry more ammo.  Possibly do a version for each rifle.

The sniper rifle: really really long range (21+ hexes!), weaker than Heavy (maybe a 7pt shot?), firing on move causes penalty.

Those are my dreams.  Still not good compared modern tech, but I like backwater firepower.

Wish the Light Rifle did 4 dmg, so it at least would do 1pt to BAR-10.
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Charistoph

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #54 on: 16 March 2020, 21:48:50 »
IOW, a Heavy rifle, does 8 or 9 damage to BAR 10, with AC/5 ranges, and doesn't self explode randomly.

but you take a hit to ammunition capacity, and maybe it sucks ass against flying objects and can't be mounted on a 'mech because it needs a loader technician to keep it fed...but it has its own 'specialty' rounds that are generally more useful against vehicles and infantry while being LESS useful against 'mechs and Battlesuits.

a weapon that ends up requiring its own tactical menu to use, oen that isn't as widely applicable to EVERY force in EVERY situation. (aka not mounted on asf, not mounted on 'mechs, or rarely mounted on mechs because the damn thing SUCKS compared to 'mech weapons on 'mechs.)

My suggested direction of development?

Endo-Steel barrel and breech, possibly with a layer of armor composite wrapping the breech block, a 2 pip penalty against flying targets due to the nature of the weapon (making it difficult to use even against a Yellowjacket), but a bonus against ground-bound targets, It can fire indirect but the damage is LOW and only impacts a single hex using a specific ammunition type that costs mass and space to carry.

for example:

AOE rounds (Thermite plasma and/or some inferno equivalent) will most certainly cook anything with exposed skin, including mechanized infantry that aren't environmentally sealed, but has little to no impact on even cheap PAL suits.

Firecracker/Cannister: shreds infantry (1, 2, or 3 D6 out to range vs. unarmored infantry),  leaves a 1D6 point minefield that only affects infantry in that hex or crossing that hex. (toe poppers).

HE: a 1 (light), 2 (medium) or 3 (Heavy) point pain maker in a targeted hex when fired indirectly (at plus four, minus one for each spotter, maximum of 3 spotters).  Certainly enough to fry a foot or motorized platoon,b ut the fragments will be shrugged off by Mechanized or Battlesuited infantry without issue. (Since, after all, they're protected from shock and splinters to a certain extent.)  HOwever, it does a GREAT job of clearing woods or reducing /creating rubbled terrain.

HVAP:  does full rifle damage vs. 'mechs and BA out to range when fired directly.  However, you have fewer shots, thus fewer chances to DO that damage, and various NEW armors reduce it.  (hardened, Ferro-Lamellor, and so on.)

likely creators:

Taurian Concordat
Magistracy of Canopus
Cappellan Confederation.

C-bill cost: same as an AC/5.

capabilities: may fire indirect out to effective range with the aid of a spotter, may be linked to a targeting computer, ammo reduction is due to bulk-the ammo itself is BULKY, if permitted on 'mechs and ASF's, one ton takes up 2, 3, or 4 critical spaces. (Light, Medium, or Heavy), and CASE for it weighs twice as much to cover the needed additional volume on a 'mech or ASF. (thus continuing the trend of "you can do it, but it's not a good idea" technologies applied to 'mechs and ASF.)

Crit spaces: Light occupies the same crit spaces as an Ultra 2, Medium the same as an Ultra 5, Heavy the same as an Ultra 20.  (thus, making it REALLY not a good idea to mount on a 'mech!!)  On vehicles, only counts as a single item.

If there weren't canon mechs already carrying Rifles, I could agree with this concept.  Since there are, there should be a deficit for 'Mechs to be carrying it.  One of those is that accuracy comes from that weapon crew that vehicles have, and that 'Mechs don't.  Autocannons would have largely replaced Rifles well before the Mackie had come on line (circa 2240 vs 2438), especially with the "Standard" Armor coming introduced a few decades after the first Autocannon.  (Odd side note, historically, we've used rotary cannon for quite some time in our modern day, such as the aforementioned GAU-8A and the near ubiquitous M61A1 Vulcan.)

Alternatively, the "Improved Rifle" lines come up, with all parameters much like you say, but they just cannot be placed on 'Mechs and ASFs, because of the crew requirements.  For all intents and purposes, they are akin to the improved Rockets Launchers in that it is old tech made new, but they just don't work with the more advanced systems that 'Mechs and ASFs use for their expected solo pilots.  However, being able to build a "Spooky" or have desperate dropship captains may equip them (debatable if they'd be usable in space or not).

I would put the HVAP with the current ammo capacity, while upping the capacity of any specialist ammo, if you want them to be higher.  The ammo bins of the Rifles really are sufficiently anemic that they don't need to be reduced.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #55 on: 16 March 2020, 23:00:09 »
If there weren't canon mechs already carrying Rifles, I could agree with this concept.  Since there are, there should be a deficit for 'Mechs to be carrying it.  One of those is that accuracy comes from that weapon crew that vehicles have, and that 'Mechs don't.  Autocannons would have largely replaced Rifles well before the Mackie had come on line (circa 2240 vs 2438), especially with the "Standard" Armor coming introduced a few decades after the first Autocannon.  (Odd side note, historically, we've used rotary cannon for quite some time in our modern day, such as the aforementioned GAU-8A and the near ubiquitous M61A1 Vulcan.)

Alternatively, the "Improved Rifle" lines come up, with all parameters much like you say, but they just cannot be placed on 'Mechs and ASFs, because of the crew requirements.  For all intents and purposes, they are akin to the improved Rockets Launchers in that it is old tech made new, but they just don't work with the more advanced systems that 'Mechs and ASFs use for their expected solo pilots.  However, being able to build a "Spooky" or have desperate dropship captains may equip them (debatable if they'd be usable in space or not).

I would put the HVAP with the current ammo capacity, while upping the capacity of any specialist ammo, if you want them to be higher.  The ammo bins of the Rifles really are sufficiently anemic that they don't need to be reduced.

"Accuracy penalty" tends to pile on regardless of what you mount a weapon system on-which is why I tend to shy away from using (overusing) it.

Crew requirement in my concept is more of an explanation that wouldn't make it past round 1 of playtesting, because people would start questioning why crewed vees don't get bonuses with other weapons, or 'wouldn't a dual cockpit do the same thing' or somesuch.

There are a lot of reasons weapons systems don't make the cut.  With the "Improved" rifles I kind of decided to give them an obvious flaw that isn't the accuracy penalty or damage drop, and isn't making them just heavier (because that's another one that is constantly overused.)

The ammo bin, after all, is already tonnage inefficient-so why not make it bulky?  In particular, make the necessary equipment to give it one-man operation bulky as hell the same way energy weapons incur a penalty on vehicles (even with fusion engines)?

Make the CASE require more space-this also (Incidentally) lets the existing Canon "craptech" rifles go unedited-the shells don't interchange, the Improved models use individual ammo that is bulkier, longer, or more awkward (and can't be easily slid through a standard-dimension aperture from torso to arm).

IOW instead of tonnage, it gobbles CRITS.

'mech weapons in BT are the most compact, space-efficient versions of themselves a given industrial base can produce.

so..."Improved Rifles" wind up being non-compact, space INEFFICIENT things that require more resources on a 'mech than the much more space-and-weight-efficient Autocannons with their shorter cartridge casings and simple, standardized-width/length ammunition feeds.

none of which really have much impact on a vehicle, since there are fewer 'bendy places' to get around on a tank or gun emplacement, than on a 'mech, and a tank doesn't need to be aerodynamic (unlike an ASF..mind that most ASFs have the aerodynamics of a brick drawn by picasso after a particularly long night on methedrine and acid, but we can pretend someone in the 31st century knows what a wind-tunnel is...)

basically the 'improved' rifle-cannon should be something that didn't develop because autocannons are more firepower in the same volume at a similar weight, with less bulky ammunition storage, and they work with having all sorts of bendy places between the ammo bins (which also have to be bendy given the acrobatics in the books) and the firing element (often mounted in an arm on something that has dozens of places it bends and flexes.)

Thus, you can stick an "Improved rifle" on a tank, (because the ammo's in the turret bustle, right behind the gun, with only ONE joint-at the trunnions of the gun, rather than five to twenty as you'd find in a 'mech) and work just fine, without needing to fill up y our internal volume with armatures and such to move the long-ass shells from point A to the breech of the gun.

still, this is BAttletech, so it has to be POSSIBLE within the rules.  the best approach imho, is to make it INCONVENIENT.  a working Improved Rifle on a 'mech ends up gobbling huge amounts of space for the weight, making it difficult to design around as the ammo has a better chance of being nailed (covers double the crits per ton with a minimum of TWO ammo crits per ton instead of one), and putting CASE there ends up costing a full ton instead of half a ton (because your CASE has to cover more area), while the weapon itself ends up bloating in a 'mech chassis to give it the self-loading feature (making it more vulnerable to being critted out of action and turned into dead weight).

None of which matters on a tank.  On a Tank, your ammunition feed is named 'Steve' or 'Quiang' or 'Holly' or whoever got stuck in the loader's position.

(said loader is also your ammunition selector, but hey, you can use verbal commands to select shells and they're available to provide extra hands wehn breaking track!!)

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RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #56 on: 17 March 2020, 02:05:54 »
I just use Rifle Canons as is. My head canon has Rifle Cannons being created in Early Spaceflight as recreations and standardized versions of Terran Tank Cannons. I have them being built by colonists in the revolts leading up to the Terran Hegemony abandoning so many of them.

Head canon or not, I just don't agree with the -3 points damage. I really don't agree with the LRC doing 0 damage. Again, they're the only pre-spaceflight weapon that suffers from this nerf. Machine Guns don't suffer from that penalty. Artillery doesn't. Mech Mortors don't. VGL don't. Infantry weapons don't. The only weapons that do are the Rifle Cannons. Why should RCs?

Why does a 7.5 cm Leichtgeschütz 40 Infantry Medium Recoiless Rifle do 1 point of damage when a 75mm Light Rifle Canon (Tank Cannon does 0 points of damage?  :-\   

To make things even more confusing, the LRC would not only do damage if playing the RPG but it'd do more damage. The same damage as the Battle Armor MRR?




I've actually seen them as more GAU-19s, with heavy MGs being the six-barreled kind...

Light MGs are pretty well represented by the M2HB.

Works for me. I just wish damage remained consistent regardless of the unit using it. 





holy-moly that's a lot of discussion ...

I was going to toss in wanting to see more (craptacular, but not un-cool) Rifles:

(snip)

Wish the Light Rifle did 4 dmg, so it at least would do 1pt to BAR-10.

I wouldn't mind if there were more Rifles.

Ditto.

killfr3nzy

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #57 on: 17 March 2020, 03:01:54 »
Not really.
---
That's where you get a 37mm Tank Cannon being equivalent to Infantry Medium Rifles. And yes, it is the Infantry version.

Ahh, damn. Thanks for the info.

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #58 on: 17 March 2020, 03:20:43 »
Cannonshop, while I generally support the "more crits" approach, I wouldn't apply it to CASE.  One half ton CASE install in a torso covers any number of tons of ammo (of different kinds, even) as written.

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #59 on: 17 March 2020, 03:57:33 »
Ahh, damn. Thanks for the info.


You're welcome.
You could use the RPG damages though.