How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?

[massey]

The Griffin has two advantages over the Shadow Hawk.  It has 2 points more jump, and it's got a 10 point hit as opposed to the Hawk's 5 point hits.  Those are nice, but not overwhelming.  The Shadow Hawk has two advantages over the Griffin.  It has no heat problems (as opposed to the Griffin being a very warm running machine), and it has fewer problems with minimum range penalties.

The Griffin may have a bit easier time of picking HTH engagements thanks to the extra jump jets, but assuming normal pilots and both parties jumping, kicking is going to be a risky proposition for it.  I think when the Shadow Hawk loses initiative, it should try to run for movement mods and let the Griffin try to shoot at high numbers and build heat.  If the Shadow Hawk wins, run to get close and count on your shorter ranged weaponry.  If you win initiative twice or more in a row (which should happen on occasion in a normal game), then you should be able to get adjacent and engage in HTH on your own terms.  If the Griffin wins init several times in a row, it's okay to go to medium or longer range and make him take shots on you.  His LRMs will run out soon, and his PPC eats up all his heat sinks.

Against the Wolverine, things are harder, but they aren't really that bad.  The thing to remember is this -- a Shadow Hawk is like 95% the same mech as these other two.  Small advantages in jump distance are going to be affected by factors like terrain layout.  Yeah, a 5 jump is better than a 3 jump, but if you're jumping into heavy woods, or you need to go over a LOS-blocking building, sometimes a 3 is all you need.

Not to say the Griffin and Wolverine don't have their advantages -- they do.  But you're really asking the Shadow Hawk to do what it wasn't meant to do.  Alternate ammo types mean it's a great all-rounder design, even if it doesn't quite have the same hole-punching ability or brawling power as its two brothers.

[RogueK]

I think I'd break with consensus here. I'd try to fight at more intermediate range where I can use all weapons, with emphasis on high movement, and crucially for this to work: Loading infernos into my SRM2, which are IIRC availible in damn near all eras.

It can inflict up to 6 heat a turn if I'm lucky, enough to start causing troubles for the Griffin especially, but also the Wolverine if it tries any fancy footwork. It's not a guarantee, especially wolverine can take it, though if I can keep pressure on and have a little luck I may just manage to keep pushing his heat up enough that he has to choose between keeping up or letting me fire more than him.

Flipside I am not really scared about the Wolverine loading Infernos. Because that means he gives up his SRMs and that's a fair bit of damage to lose while my SRM2s are a far less loss for me. And the Shadowhawk is a very cool running mech even though he'd spike my heat more.

It's honestly the best idea I have.

With quirks I MIGHT feel confident in going HTH with a wolverine, but without it I'm giving up medium lasers while he gives up an AC5 which with min-range is a lesser loss, and while he's less accurate under quirks with with extended torso twist he can always punch and fire laser + SRM even if he can't kick.

[Weirdo]

Not a bad idea, but bear in mind that Infernos are 2 heat per missile.

[RogueK]

Crap. Had the idea that they were 3 heat for some reason. That weakens the concept, doesn't kill it, but weakens it. Still remains the best idea I have to even the odds somewhat.

[Kovax]

All this boils down to a tough but winnable fight against a Griffin, maybe 6 wins in 10 battles, or 11 out of 20.  Against the Wolverine, it's probably going to be all you can do to eke out 3 or 4 wins in 10 fights.

If the Shadow Hawk loads Infernos, it potentially gains even more advantage in heat over the Griffin, reducing the GRF's ability to use the PPC, but also reduces its own already short-range firepower, meaning that it devolves even more into a kicking match between the SHD and GRF, determined mainly by luck.  Movement is your friend, since you've got deeper ammo bins, and the heat for movement isn't a problem for you, but is for the GRF.  While the GRF can potentially use its JJs to hop behind you if it wins initiative, figure in the jump modifiers on top of decent movement mods on your part, and it's not as scary as it seems: point-blank PPC shots would be next to or completely impossible (4 base, +3 for jumping, +2or3 for defender movement, +3 minimum range modifier) and kicks would be at bad odds (about equal chances of hitting and falling), so I'd say the SHD has a short-range advantage it can exploit, but it's a thin one, and MOST fights will come down to terrain and whoever scores the lucky game-changing shot, punch, or kick first.

Against the Wolverine, Infernos need to be used from a relatively close range, in which case you're already playing to the Wolverine's strengths.  The inability to actually do damage with the SRM racks would further erode your limited ability to fight at short range.  I'd want standard ammo.  Short of special AC ammo or unusual terrain, the SHD is going to require a solid dose of good luck under almost any circumstances to weather a fight between it and the Wolverine.  Basically, you're trying to compete against a 'Mech designed to kill 'Mechs like yours.

[Sir Chaos]

All this boils down to a tough but winnable fight against a Griffin, maybe 6 wins in 10 battles, or 11 out of 20.  Against the Wolverine, it's probably going to be all you can do to eke out 3 or 4 wins in 10 fights.

If the Shadow Hawk loads Infernos, it potentially gains even more advantage in heat over the Griffin, reducing the GRF's ability to use the PPC, but also reduces its own already short-range firepower, meaning that it devolves even more into a kicking match between the SHD and GRF, determined mainly by luck.  Movement is your friend, since you've got deeper ammo bins, and the heat for movement isn't a problem for you, but is for the GRF.  While the GRF can potentially use its JJs to hop behind you if it wins initiative, figure in the jump modifiers on top of decent movement mods on your part, and it's not as scary as it seems: point-blank PPC shots would be next to or completely impossible (4 base, +3 for jumping, +2or3 for defender movement, +3 minimum range modifier) and kicks would be at bad odds (about equal chances of hitting and falling), so I'd say the SHD has a short-range advantage it can exploit, but it's a thin one, and MOST fights will come down to terrain and whoever scores the lucky game-changing shot, punch, or kick first.

Against the Wolverine, Infernos need to be used from a relatively close range, in which case you're already playing to the Wolverine's strengths.  The inability to actually do damage with the SRM racks would further erode your limited ability to fight at short range.  I'd want standard ammo.  Short of special AC ammo or unusual terrain, the SHD is going to require a solid dose of good luck under almost any circumstances to weather a fight between it and the Wolverine.  Basically, you're trying to compete against a 'Mech designed to kill 'Mechs like yours.

Add to this that, if the Griffin jumps to generate a high TMM, it´ll heat up too badly to use its PPC every turn, so you´d have a firepower advantage at most ranges.

[SCC]

Keep in mind that when carrying Infernos you'll have a second set of ammo explosion numbers for the Infernos.

[Sir Chaos]

Keep in mind that when carrying Infernos you'll have a second set of ammo explosion numbers for the Infernos.

Both the Shadow Hawk and the Wolverine are pretty famous for not being very heat-intensive, though.

So if I *had* to carry infernos in a ´mech, the Shadow Hawk would be the one I´d do it in.

[Crimson Dawn]

Just to add more potential fun let us add another classic 55 ton succession wars mech in the dervish.  How does the shadow hawk handle the dervish and how successful will it be?

[kaliban]

I'd move to get close to the Griffin and stay as close as possible, using it's minimum range to it's disadvantage. I'll reciprocate but my long range weapons are only half as powerful as his plus I have the SRMs and medium laser. Bonus points if I can set the area on fire and use my excess heat sinks to gain another advantage.

With the Wolverine, I'm going to do the opposite, keep the range as much as possible and use my LRM rack to grant me a slight advantage. Once he closes I'll yet again look to get to a place I can set on fire and negate some of his firepower with heat.

I completely agree. Fact is that Shadow Hawk canon designs are pretty inferior to most of Griffins and Wolverines. Most of times, the Shadow Hawk will loose on a one-on-one combat against them.

Don't forget to balance the BVs. Some versions of the Griffin has a very high BV value and a totally unbalanced opponent to the Shadow Hawk

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just to add more potential fun let us add another classic 55 ton succession wars mech in the dervish.  How does the shadow hawk handle the dervish and how successful will it be?

Getting close is really the only option.  Try to get into physical range and pray you can start punching through the Dervish's rather weak armor before its superior firepower begins to hurt too much.

[Ruger]

Just to add more potential fun let us add another classic 55 ton succession wars mech in the dervish.  How does the shadow hawk handle the dervish and how successful will it be?

Still doing the standard 2H Shadow Hawk? Or the 2D?

Ruger

[Ogra_Chief]

Getting close is really the only option.  Try to get into physical range and pray you can start punching through the Dervish's rather weak armor before its superior firepower begins to hurt too much.

Still run into the maneuverability problem (2H), but it is negated by the weak armor of the Dervish. So, yeah get in close if you can, and don't let the Dervish disengage. However, I tend to get my Dervish's killed as much as my Jagermech's, guess I'm too aggressive. As for the Shadow Hawk, if 2H, and nothing to support, then it is time to withdraw. I usually modify my 2H's when in campaign, making them slower but beefier, making for great troopers. As for the stock 2H, love it, but it's too much of a generalist mech and thus bad at everything. Sadly, best classified as "Hero Support," than Hero, ala. Wolverine - 6M.

[Crimson Dawn]

Still doing the standard 2H Shadow Hawk? Or the 2D?

Ruger

I would say that the intent of the OP was to use the original "default" version of the mechs rather than other versions even if they are intro tech.

[Weirdo]

Correct. This thread is about discussing exactly three mechs:

SHD-2H Shadow Hawk
GRF-1N Griffin
WVR-6R Wolverine

No other mechs or variants need be mentioned at all.

[kaliban]

So,

SHD-2H Shadow Hawk
GRF-1N Griffin
WVR-6R Wolverine

These mechs are not meant to fight one-on-one against each other, but if you do, don't take the Shadow Hawk. The Griffin excel in long range, the Wolverine in the short-range (and is the sure winner in this comparison) but the Shadow Hawk is the worst of all with weak firepower in all ranges.

[Weirdo]

Per the entire point of this thread, you don't have a choice. You're in a Shadow Hawk. You're facing a Griffin or Wolverine. Since you don't want to waste the time of your fellow forum members, you know you can't just say withdraw or surrender, you MUST fight.

[Kovax]

Fact is that Shadow Hawk canon designs are pretty inferior to most of Griffins and Wolverines. Most of times, the Shadow Hawk will loose on a one-on-one combat against them.

Given at least modest amounts of cover to break LoS or provide a modifier when you lose Initiative, a Shadow Hawk should be able to hang close enough to a Griffin to overwhelm it at point-blank range, where the Griffin's armament suffers major minimum-range penalties.

The Wolverine is a different story.  You're outclassed in weaponry at short range, have a barely significant advantage at long, and are at a slight disadvantage for movement (shorter jump range).  Heat is in your favor, but it's not a problem for the Wolverine, so it's not something you can build a strategy around.  Closing to physical combat range and hoping to score a couple of lucky punches to the head or kicks to the same leg is probably the best of your poor alternatives, unless the Wolverine player is content (or forced by an un-crossable terrain feature) to allow you to hold the range open turn after turn, and gives you reasonably easy shots to let you make good use of the small LRM rack.  Maybe you can engage from the opposite side of a Level 6 deep canyon or something, and hope the other player is willing to trade AC/5 shots against your AC/5 and LRM-5.

[massey]

I still say it's toss up.  Not 50/50, more like 55/45.  It's slightly in favor of the Wolverine, but really damage grouping is going to make a much bigger difference than anything else.

[Taber_Evans]

Per the entire point of this thread, you don't have a choice. You're in a Shadow Hawk. You're facing a Griffin or Wolverine. Since you don't want to waste the time of your fellow forum members, you know you can't just say withdraw or surrender, you MUST fight.

Well the Shad is one of my favorites though the 2H mod was not.  All I can say is do it on the move.  Far too much depends on the scene of battle and the opponents style to issue a decisive answer IMO.   If running RPG then the various diffs in PC type and style must also be included.   But I can say that in 15 years (86 - 01)  of running ( modded Merc) Shads prior to the Clans that a Shad has the potential to kill any mech on the field in the right conditions.  But then I can honestly say the same about most mechs.

[Wolf72]

Honestly,  what other answer than "Move fast and shoot" would work?  Obviously (ok, maybe not so obvious) don't run into anything or crash, but keep moving and fire everything.

I can only think of the other option as "Hide and plink away".  OK combine those two as needed.

[BloodRose]

Ah sod this. Ill run some games against Princess tonight and see what happens. How big a map should I be using Weirdo?

[Weirdo]

2x2 mapsheets at a minimum seems fair, though the bigger, the better if you ask me. We want enough room for both mechs to try and leverage range and speed as they wish. As long as you feel a Wolverine would have to work pretty hard to back the Shad into a corner, I'll call it good.

[BloodRose]

Okay, so game 1 is Shad vs Griffin. The map is randomly generated 2x2 sheets, mild elevations. We have a broad map with some light forest and low hills and minor dips with a river running through the central valley. Princess deploys in the North.
Princess sets up on L2 terrain, I set up behind a ravine opposing her.

Turn 1 Princess moves South and turns West to head to a narrow point in the crossing, ending in a pocket between L1 and L2 hills. I move North West towards a forested section of the valley and a thinner part of the river I can jump across.

Trun 2 sees Princess move further South West as I enter the dense woodland and move down the slope towards the river. Yet again, no firing.

Turn 3 sees me advance through the forest as Princess mounts the hills on the far side of the valley. No firing this turn but next turn we will be in range.

On Turn 4 I choose to hold my position, hidden in the woods as Princess closes and climbs atop the cliffs on the far side of the river. Next turn we will be in short range. My LRM's will suffer but im hoping to ride her down at point blank range.

Turn 5 sees Princess make a fateful blunder and jump the river. I instantly dash out in ambush, ensuring to stay within a forested hex. In the ensuing close in knifefight all of our shots miss, save my SRM-2 which impacts on her RT and LA. Princess tries for a savage kick, but misses whilst I throw my Shads left arm into a wild swing which connects with her Left Arm again, tearing off armour. Princess ends the turn 2 heat up.

Turn 6 sees Princess show a clear lack of close-in tactics or knowledge of her better Mech. She tries to flank me, but without the initiative ends up too close to be effective and the maelstrom of fire sees her Griffin ravaged by a Medium Laser hit on her RL and a SRM to her CT. This time the physical blows are reversed, but neither her punch nor my kick connect.

OH SHIDD. Turn 6 sees things goes south. Assuming Princess will continue her close in fetish I, losing the initiative, move to flank her. Instead she jumps away across the river and lands a lucky hit on my head, blowing through the armour! Im alive but barely.

And then on Turn 7 she.... Moves right back? I smash her with a volley of weapons fire, but only the SRM 2 hits, sending missiles into her LT and RT. Her motives soon become clear as she tries to punch me, but misses, whilst my own kick nearly strips her RL.

Turn 8 sees me lose the initiative and try to jump clear but Princess jumps in behind me. All I can bring to bare is my Medium Laser.... It misses but Princess does not fire!

Turn 9 and in desperation I charge Princess, but miss. Nothing happens this turn except a pair of fools flailing at one another and a PPC blast removing a passing pidgeon.

And on Turn 10 she jumps clear again, leaving me in the dust trying to catch up. My own shots miss, bar the ML that hits her LT.

Losing the Initiative on Turn 11 makes me worried so I jump back only for Princess to hold her ground... And bombard me with PPC and Missile fire, to no effect. My return fire lobs a cannon shell into her RA.

Turn 12 and Princess retakes to the woods, seeking cover. I close the range on foot and the two of us blaze away to no more than some light ecological damage.

And Princess runs in close... Turn 13 is odd. I hold my ground and fire, missing with all but my Laser which hits her RA whilst she vaporises a 200 year old oak with her PPC. We both kick, she misses but I smash my metal boot into her LL, damaging it.

On Turn 14 she stays still as I try to flank her. Her PPC again proves deadly to the local wildlife but my own fire is not too good either, throwing a laser burst into her LA and a missile each into her RA and LT.

Turn 15 and Princess tries to flee, but I pursue. Sadly my own fire does nothing but rile up the local wildlife and Princess likewise roasts a dear.

Turn 16 and I try to close, but Princess jumps behind me, thankfully missing with her PPC.

Turn 17 and we take positions either side of an inlet, gunslingers at 2 hexes. Gunslingers with all the accuracy of Imperial Stormtroopers....

And I lose the Initiative on Turn 18, jumping away... Princess is faster and jumps onto my flank. Only my ML hits, damaging her CT. Our fist-fu is weak though and no hits are scored.

Turn 19's fighting sees me on the run again, with Princess... Easily keeping close? In her Medium-Long range machine?  Anyway, I miss all my shots.

Turn 20 and Princess kindly steps infront of me.... And apparently my pilots head is still spinning because she misses shots on TN5. Or perhaps I was just saving all my RNG powers for the melee phase because HOLY SHIDD SHE GOT EBINNED! From my small gully I easily evade her kick and throw a punch that hits like the fist of the north star! Princess's LL is damaged, and it is just enough to throw her off balance. She stumbles, she falls and her RL is torn off!

Turn 21 and it is now just a curbstom. I stand there and pour fire into her downed chassis, smashing the other leg and destroying its lower acuator and landing an SRM on her CT and punching her LA open.

Aaannndddd then Princess ejects! The battle is over and the Shadowhawk is the clear winner! Well, not quite.

Princess really failed to use the terrain or her machine well and on several occasions repeatedly closed the range with my machine, letting me use my superior in-close capabilities and really hammer her. Still, in the one instance she showed any real sense she nearly headcapped me.... In all honesty if she had stayed on the far side and harassed me as I moved for the crossing point things would have gone a lot worse for me as I would have been badly ravaged by the time I finally closed in, headshots or not. I feel another player would have devastated my old machine before I could get in close and rip them asunder, but Princess failed to use her machine well. But, anyway, the Shad won. Imma go sleep now so the Wolverine fight will be had tomorrow.

[Daryk]

Is it still possible to set up bot vs. bot battles?

[BloodRose]

Im not sure, but ill try. Either way the Griffin fight needs a re-do with Princess tweaked to be less aggressive and more open to keeping the range brackets long. However it did prove one thing: The Griffin dominates the Shadowhawk at longer ranges but once the range drops the Shadowhawk can tear it apart.

[Kovax]

However it did prove one thing: The Griffin dominates the Shadowhawk at longer ranges but once the range drops the Shadowhawk can tear it apart.

Exactly as expected.  If the SHD can make effective use of terrain to close the distance, and then drop back into cover when it loses initiative, the GRF is at a disadvantage.  The PPC gives the GRF the random possibility of a sudden win on almost any turn, but you can easily minimize the odds of that happening, since the minimum-range penalty is brutal (making the GRF's ability to jump behind the SHD practically useless in the weapons fire phase).  Ultimately, it comes down to terrain and skill, but the SHD definitely isn't outclassed by the GRF in typical mixed terrain.  Given most of the normal maps, I'd generally choose the SHD over the GRF by a narrow margin, and expect the unexpected to decide most of the outcomes.  Open up the terrain a bit more between cover locations, and I'll take the GRF without hesitation.

[massey]

Yeah, while the Wolverine has a small advantage over the Shadow Hawk in 1 on 1 combat, the Shadow Hawk has that same advantage over the Griffin.  None of these mechs were designed to really fight in duels, they're all fast cavalry of one kind or another.

The Wolvie puts out more damage per turn, but it's only got 15 shots with the SRM-6.  The SH can keep the to-hits high enough that the Wolvie misses more than half the time, even giving him short range.  This'll basically come down to who lands two kicks on the same leg first.

[Wolf72]

So what you're saying is that we need a Mortal Kombat: 'Mech Combat game.  All adds up to who has more quarters (I know, dating myself there) and can rapid tap their buttons.

[BloodRose]

Im not going to post the Wolverine Battle... Yeah, it went like that. I had some really bad luck but otherwise the Wolverine tore me apart. Interestingly it wasnt so much the weapons fire as the Wolverine kicking my legs out then curbstomping me until I died.