Clan Points and Formations

[DarkJaguar]

Pg. 148 of the ASC has a table defining formations and types.  Of particular value to my question is 5 Protomechs makes up a point, and 5 points makes up a star.

If I had a star of protomechs (25 models), would that count as 25 units for the purposes of calculating how many SPAs to assign to the formation? for how many units are left in the formation for the purposes of if it's still a formation?  Or would it count as 5?

Follow up question.  If it counts as 5, does assigning an SPA to a point, then give every member of that point the SPA?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

It's best to consider a sort of a divide between rules and fluff.  A "Star" in Alpha Strike is better thought of as 5-10 models.  Even though a Star of Protomechs in-universe would be 25 models.  The simplest thing to do for AS is treat a point of 5 Protos as its own star for force building purposes (e.g. SPAs)

Consider a conventional infantry platoon.  In-universe it's an entire lance all by itself, but in-game it's one unit.  4 platoons would be a "lance" for formation building purposes, but in-universe 4 platoons is an overstrength company.

[Xochi]

The book though defines a point as one unit in the formation rules.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The book though defines a point as one unit in the formation rules.

Actually, it doesn't.  There are places where a point is described as one unit, but that's a context where it's clearly talking about a battlemech.

In the ASC, the chart on pg 148 and the description of how Lance composition is arranged on pg 149 provide you the "rules", such as they are.  I use quotes as Lance composition is inherently flexible so as to allow for IS, ComStar, and especially the infinitely flexible Clan organizational practices.  By being generalized in language the rules are also avoiding proscribing against having under or overstrength Lances in your game.

So, granted, Protomechs fall into a bit of a crack in all this discussion as presented as the chart fails to mention Protomech Stars as opposed to Protomech Points, but the information is still all there to reasonably extrapolate how it should best work for game purposes.  Now you can say for the purposes of your Alpha Strike game your "Lance" of protomechs is 5 units, or 25 units.  I suppose there's no reason you couldn't do either one.  But not only is it more organic to the feel of the rest of the game to assign Force Building SPAs to protomechs by batches of 5, it's more game-effective to do so.  Would you rather have 6 rerolls to be shared across a Battle Star of 25 Protos, or 5 Battle Points of 5 Protos each where each batch gets 6 rerolls?

[Scotty]

Formation Composition rules as they are fill a niche that need filling (organized framework for building forces), but they do so in a profoundly imprecise and easily broken manner.

It's already well into the realm of optional rules; use whatever modifications to that you can agree with your opponents on.

[DarkJaguar]

Formation Composition rules as they are fill a niche that need filling (organized framework for building forces), but they do so in a profoundly imprecise and easily broken manner.

It's already well into the realm of optional rules; use whatever modifications to that you can agree with your opponents on.

So, with this in mind.  Without making house rules and ONLY using what's in the book...

I want to build an ASF formation.  I have consulted the table, and determined based upon that and the paragraph below that I need 10 fighters (5 pairs) to make a star.

Fighter Equivalents: For aerospace and conventional fighters, lances and their equivalents are built differently. Among the Inner Sphere realms and Periphery states, 2 fighters of the same type represent a lance of fighters (also known as a flight), with 3 flights combined to make up a squadron of 6 fighters. The Clan factions use 5 pairs of fighters (known to them as Points) to make up their aerospace Stars. This makes for 10-fighter Stars that function more like over-sized squadrons. ComStar and Word of Blake factions, meanwhile, continue to use their 6-unit Level II organization for their fighter groups, thus making ComStar’s fighter lances equal to the standard Inner Sphere squadron by default.

Do the points need to be pairs of the same variant?  Does each point count as 1 "unit" for force composition rules, or do I treat the 10 units separately?  When I assign an SPA, if I'm assigning it to the point, does the whole point get it, or just one of the two?  If i lose 7 fighters, do I still have a formation regardless of which 7 it is, or would I need 3 "points" (partial or complete) to still meet the requirements for the formation?

I would like to avoid having to write up a house clarification for this.  We try and use the published materials as much as possible, but depending on which side of this formation you're on, your interpretation might be different, so what's the word from on high?

[Scotty]

This is the wrong sub-board for "word from on high".  Anything we say here, even with a Beemer (or April Fool's Day Imp) icon, is still not 'official'.  (Hell, I'm just a demo agent!  I just like Alpha Strike a whole lot. :D)

To answer the rest of your question, it's two paragraphs below where you just quoted.

Note that even though most aerospace squadrons, Level IIs,
and Stars group their fighters in pairs of identical models, many
of the requirements listed for these formation types will likely
produce odd numbers of unit types. If players wish to maintain
the tradition of keeping their fighters in identical pairs, they may
swap out the unmatched pair of fighters in favor of a match that
meets the first required criteria in the formation’s description.

"Unit" is a very specific term in BattleTech and Alpha Strike.  Anything that has its own Alpha Strike card is a "unit".  Protomechs are one of those "easily broken" parts I mentioned, because nothing you decide with them will please everybody, regardless of which option you go with.  Officially, each Star of Protomechs is 25 units.

The problem largely ends up being fluff.  What, exactly, constitutes a Star, Squadron, Lance, or Level II is not a rules definition, and never has been.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

This is the wrong sub-board for "word from on high".  Anything we say here, even with a Beemer (or April Fool's Day Imp) icon, is still not 'official'.  (Hell, I'm just a demo agent!  I just like Alpha Strike a whole lot. :D)

I like to think of this part of the forum as the "Peanut Gallery".  You're assured to get an answer to rules questions, but take it for what it is :)  Over in the official rules subforum, only specific people are allowed to post. You get the official "from on high" answer, but you have to wait for it.  They're particularly good about giving responses for Alpha Strike questions (thanks nckestrel!) but sometimes you do have to wait an awful long time for an answer as there's a whole team of rules experts who debate the answer behind closed doors before the answer goes public.

This Peanut Gallery is good for soliciting opinions and getting clarifications on something you might just be mis-reading. 

To answer the rest of your question, it's two paragraphs below where you just quoted.
"Unit" is a very specific term in BattleTech and Alpha Strike.  Anything that has its own Alpha Strike card is a "unit".  Protomechs are one of those "easily broken" parts I mentioned, because nothing you decide with them will please everybody, regardless of which option you go with.  Officially, each Star of Protomechs is 25 units.

The problem largely ends up being fluff.  What, exactly, constitutes a Star, Squadron, Lance, or Level II is not a rules definition, and never has been.

I find it easiest to consider "Lance" in the context of formation building in Alpha Strike as being a term that does not mean the same thing as the term Lance when used in-universe.  A "Lance" can be a Lance, a Level II, a Star, a Demi-Company, or anything else even.  I'd include a Point as being appropriate in-universe name for a "Lance" when that Point is 5 units, as the case in Protomechs.  I wouldn't go so far as to consider a 2 unit point (such as tanks or ASFs) as being appropriate to be a distinct "Lance" simply because of arbitrary reasons.  I think of a "Lance" as being a team of 3-10 units, and I generally try to keep to canon simply for fun rather than trying to make the rules conform to canon.  My favored faction is Kurita, and the DCMS fields Battle Armor in squads of 4 suits each (one unit).  A generic Lance is 4 units, but the DCMS deploys squads by groups of 3, not 4.  A "Lance" of Kurita BA is perfectly fine as either 4 units (as generically appropriate) or 3 units (sticking with canon).

[Weirdo]

Bit of inside info: Scotty is on the rules team, and is informally one of the Alpha Strike experts of the group. Nothing may be official until it's posted in the Rules Forum, but there's good odds anything posted there had a lot of his input behind it. :)

[Xochi]

The main thing that this question was brought up was due to the books recommendation for SPA and pilot assignment. Which the book states for every 4 units, 1 SPA.

If you treat each protomech as a unit then for 270ish PV you can end up with 25 units which is 6 SPAs, while some one fielding mechs will more than likely end up with maybe 2 lances which is 2 SPA.

I realize that through most people are considerate when playing the game, but its possible and very breakable. I think once the PV boosts comes out it will even out. Because right now for 8-12 PV a unit with move over 12", there is almost nothing else out there that is as efficient for cost or dice rolls.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The main thing that this question was brought up was due to the books recommendation for SPA and pilot assignment. Which the book states for every 4 units, 1 SPA.

If you treat each protomech as a unit then for 270ish PV you can end up with 25 units which is 6 SPAs, while some one fielding mechs will more than likely end up with maybe 2 lances which is 2 SPA.

I realize that through most people are considerate when playing the game, but its possible and very breakable. I think once the PV boosts comes out it will even out. Because right now for 8-12 PV a unit with move over 12", there is almost nothing else out there that is as efficient for cost or dice rolls.

I'd absolutely recommend against giving out pilot SPAs AND using formation building in the same game.  Don't do both.  Pick one system for assigning SPAs and don't use the other in the same game.

[Weirdo]

The main thing that this question was brought up was due to the books recommendation for SPA and pilot assignment. Which the book states for every 4 units, 1 SPA.

If you treat each protomech as a unit then for 270ish PV you can end up with 25 units which is 6 SPAs, while some one fielding mechs will more than likely end up with maybe 2 lances which is 2 SPA.

I realize that through most people are considerate when playing the game, but its possible and very breakable. I think once the PV boosts comes out it will even out. Because right now for 8-12 PV a unit with move over 12", there is almost nothing else out there that is as efficient for cost or dice rolls.

I am a member of the forum staff and thus am not allowed to recommend acts of violence against players that would try to pull crap like that. Tai Dai is not such constrained, therefore I recommend going to him for advice.

[Xochi]

I'd absolutely recommend against giving out pilot SPAs AND using formation building in the same game.  Don't do both.  Pick one system for assigning SPAs and don't use the other in the same game.

We actually haven't had much issue running both, unless of course the stated issues above come into effect.

[Scotty]

Formation Composition rules as they are fill a niche that need filling (organized framework for building forces), but they do so in a profoundly imprecise and easily broken manner.

Protomechs are one of those "easily broken" parts I mentioned, because nothing you decide with them will please everybody, regardless of which option you go with.

To add to the above: Alpha Strike does not generate a truly balanced playing field, especially when you start adding optional rules.  If you're trying to figure out how to finagle all of them to create an unbreakably balanced game, you're on a fool's errand.

My official suggestion remains "don't try to break it" and "punish people who do by refusing to play with them".

[Weirdo]

My official suggestion remains "don't try to break it" and "punish people who do by refusing to play with them".

Seconded, thirded, cannot emphasize this enough. I spend my entire week looking forward to my weekend game, it takes me an hour to actually get to the game, but if I finally got there and my opponent tried to do stuff like that, I'd just pack my stuff back up and go home. Alpha Strike is a game, and this meant to be fun. If people are going to try and suck the fun out of it, I've got no reason to stay.

[GoldBishop]

Why not a little of both?

My group adds both individual pilot SPAs and Formation bonuses on occassion; so far, no bad experiences, but mileage always varies from group to group.

For Individual Pilot SPAs, we don't normally assign/allow protomechs a SPA-- they've been deemed too fragile or too "insignificant" of a unit type to be considered to be a special pilot. (Opinion).  Since each Point is actually 5 units combined, we do count the Point as a singular entity for determining the number of Pilot SPAs considered (so in the previous example, 1 in 25 protomechs may receive a Pilot SPA because the ratio of 1:4 has been met, but only one time)

For Groups and formation bonuses, its different: we count individual protomechs as eligible, but any SPA assignments by Formation are assigned to the individual unit and may not be "shared" between units.  This method comes with a mixed bag of good and bad.

An instance of good: a Cavalry Star of 25 Roc [Standard] (Skirmishers with speed/jump) awards 18 protos of its formation with Speed Demon (25 x 75% = 18.75, round down)
An instance of bad: a Fire Support Star of 25 Gorgons [Standard] (25 units with IF1) only 2 units in the entire formation may receive the Oblique Attacker (or 8%)

...Now, I typically run a Mixed Nova for sampling/demo purposes (3 Omnimechs, 2 Omnivehicles, 5 protomechs; choice of a star of mechanized BA).  This usually translates into a 15-unit formation with only 5 eligible units (mechs and vees) for Individual SPAs, and pads the Formation bonus % with extra "eligible" by making the unit count twice as large, with the Battle armor forming their own Formation (or none, depending on the game).

For purely entertainment reasons, I have considered using the Horde (Lance) Formation (CM:Kurita p.86) for my pure-Protomech Stars, but until recently, I did not have sufficient numbers to perform such an adventure (I can assure you, my peer will be bringing artillery that day).  This Formation type begs to have a bunch of little, annoying critters cluttering the field of play, so I continue to believe that the way we do it (so far) has been the correct approach: open mindedness and playful intent.

Hope you find my response in good favor.