Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: A-Seven-th Thread--CorsAirin' Through Time and Airspace  (Read 33737 times)

Daryk

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Sequestration was (is) its very own beast.

Garrand

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Re: CAS. One of the things I read about CAS in Afghanistan, is that there was often a preference for the "zoomies" over the A-10, for the simple reason that the response time was much, much faster. If you needed an airstrike NOW, if it was A-10s on station, that could take several critical minutes for the aircraft to enter the target zone, transit, release ordinance, & exit. With an F-16, this turn-around time was noticeably faster.

So all the talk about how great the A-10 was (& is) doesn't always translate well to the warzone. Unless the A-10 is right there, right now, its disadvantages in that conflict outweighed its advantages.

I've read that in Afghanistan, a dedicated attack platform like the A-7 would have been perfect: not too expensive or sophisticated, but with better performance than the A-10, and able to deliver a good enough war load...

Damon.
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Daryk

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Good enough right now is always better than the best eventually.

Elmoth

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Question about CAS....

Frames like the Super Tucano are supposed to do that, right? And be MUCH cheaper than the big things. Has the USAF ever considered less capable frame like these for CAS or similar? Dunno, the idea just occurred to me and as I have no idea at all about this I thought i better ask.

Or are they too vulnerable to man pads and other man portable AA systems?

Daryk

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The Air Force?  No, not to my knowledge.

Cannonshop

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Why did the USAF stop using the A-1? The same reasons the USN did, one imagines.

By the time they stopped, the youngest airframes were nearing the twenty-year mark. There were other planes that could do the job of delivering ordnance to the ground. Those planes could get to the operational area faster and work synergistically with the rest of the strike package and the constraints of the friendly airfield (be they traditional ones or carriers on-station somewhere). And the USAF in particular already had a newer model of the A-1 coming on-line within a few years. It was called the A-10.

You know, for that CAS mission the zoomies don't want and never do.



as soon as the AH-56 was good and killed in funding, the USAF started work on canceling the PAVE/COIN program, and with it, the A-10.    The last A-10 rolled off the assembly line at Fairchild in 1982.

Yes, Forty two years ago.

This is part of why it costs so damned much to modernize/upgrade, and why the cost of maintenance has climbed-literally no new airframes since the first full year of the Reagan administration. 

To contrast this;

F-16's

 are still being built.
F-18 and variants?


still being built, new ones off the line, full spares and support.
F-15 (in multiple variants?)
still in production, with annual production numbers (Notably, F-22, which was supposed to replace the '15? no longer in production aftr the first batch.)

F-35 was sold to congress as intended to be cheaper than F-22, this influenced the decision to cease production.

So the entire A-10 force, the youngest airframe is 42 years old as of 2024.  (41 currently).

Going through the Air Force inventory, contemporaries in terms of duration of service for flying airframes without new production includes platforms like B-52 and C-5A.  Front line combat, the only older airframe still in service is the B-52, which with the re-engining program and regular updates, is a fleet of "Ship of Theseus"  (every part's been replaced at least twice, the only continuation is the serial number plate.)

potentially a situation in 2021 where an A-10 pilot may literally be flying the same bird his grandfather flew at his age.

not just the same number plate, the same aircraft.

It's due for replacement, past due even...but F-35 is not the replacement it has been touted as.  Bitter experience with "Does everything by design" includes F-111 (only became reliable late in production, in a narrow role, instead of the all-things-to-all-commanders it was pushed by McNamara as being in the early sixties, since retired in the 1990s.)

while a large portion of why so many supersonic birds show up in CAS roles in asskrakistan has much to do with the simple fact that more of them have been built, and most of them are still being built, fighter pilots need flight hours, and there are more of them.

Because they're still being built.  Nobody worked their ass off to cancel them before they even saw front-line service, as happened with A-10, beginning late Carter Administration onward.

Pentagon brass were trying to get the extant airframes retired out of service before the 1991 gulf war, which bought a reprieve, they began again as soon as the gleam wore off that conflict in the 1990s.  It's been forty one years and annually, there's a push in the Pentagon to 'replace them' with something else.

The reason is because airframes like A-10 aren't designed or developed to 'turn and burn' with other fighters, and the role doesn't lend to 'Stealth'  characteristics when the ground fire can be viable using mark one eyeball or low-tech radars (ask the F-117 about that one, or the Serbs, who shot one down with 1950s missile tech.)

The demands of the role aren't smexy demands, you're not going to get an "Ace" flying a plane optimized for that unless they count helicopters and grounded aviation most of hte time (and if you're using something LIKE an A-10 or Frogfoot for that, you have bigger problems).
 
USAF retired the A-1 (gave it to the Vietnamese) because, in part, prop aircraft were a niche tech by 1972 for the United States (same reason USAF didn't want to give PA-48 a chance to compete in PAVE Coin despite being exponentially cheaper, with half the footprint, half the bomb load on an airframe a fraction of the size. It took a literal act of congress to give Piper a hearing.)

They were also offloaded because they were old, wearing out.

They (A-1 skyraiders) were also highly effective at missions we were already losing F-105s, F-4s, A-4's, etc etc. on over vietnam.  (all aircraft that cost significantly more to procure, train pilots for and maintain, than the old, 'obsolete' skyraider fleet.)

of related tangential interest, a Vietnam-era light bomber:



which is also a Korean War medium bomber:



and was designed for World War 2.

THOSE didn't make it in service past the 1960s outside of firefighting waterbombers and museum pieces.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Failure16

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Question about CAS....

Frames like the Super Tucano are supposed to do that, right? And be MUCH cheaper than the big things. Has the USAF ever considered less capable frame like these for CAS or similar? Dunno, the idea just occurred to me and as I have no idea at all about this I thought i better ask.

Or are they too vulnerable to man pads and other man portable AA systems?

Sure, in 2009 the USAF initiated the Light Attack/Armed Reconnaissance (LAAR) program, where they investigated the usage of the Super Tucano and similar aircraft. But by 2017 it was long gone.

As I alluded to earlier, and has been brought up just recently by Garrand, turboprops are slow, slower than even the A-10. While cheaper and maybe better at the CAS role in an individual circumstance, you have to wait for the aircraft to get on station and have your airfields close enough to make it feasible in the first place. I cannot imagine they would be significantly better at eluding a modern front-line, all-arms IADS (as practiced by ex-WarPac forces and witnessed by this author during rotations at NTC) than helos are.

In a permissive AD environment (such as COIN, OOTW, operations against a non-peer force, etc.) I would think they could do just as well as they have since the early-mid 1940s. But even non-peer forces are starting to get peer-level equipment (which has been going on since Vietnam and really hit once we started giving Stingers to the Mujahedeen in the 1980s and the Iranians provided certain technologies [like certain EFP notions] to non-state actors as seen in Lebanon in 2006 and Iraq in 2003+), so the situation is changing out there.

EDIT: Further research has confirmed that well over 200 A-1s were lost in Vietnam (the link is USAF only, remember, but either way it represents two-thirds of the fixed-wing combat aircraft losses). Not great, by any means, and perhaps symptomatic of their mission profile and the threat levels they faced. If a given aircraft had 2/3rds of all your combat aircraft losses, you might look for a replacement as well...
« Last Edit: 10 September 2023, 17:11:55 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Failure16

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First, love that B-26K image. Favorite aircraft ever. Glad to see it.

Second, umm, CS, the AH-56 program stopped in 1972 and the A-X program that begat the A-10 didn't even exist in its final form until 1970, and it started in 1966 (as a side note, it should be remembered that the A-10 flew off against the A-7D upgrade--itself the winner against the F-5--for the CAS role and won handily). The fight against the AH-56--whose program started in 1966 as well--started much later (officially in 1970-1), but even I cannot say the USAF was wrong in its assertions.

A lot of helos had gone down in Southeast Asia, and the USAF spent a lot of time looking for their own downed fliers in conjunction with helicopters, which is probably where a fair-few A-1s were lost in their role as SAR escorts (hence the reason some will hear Skyraiders being called "Sandies" after their callsigns). They had every reason to say to Congress in 1971 that rotary winged assets had problems against determined air-defenses (see here for an encapsulation of Operation LAM SON 719 which the USAF used to torpedo Army arguments for the AH-56 based on the extensive US helicopter losses).
« Last Edit: 10 September 2023, 17:58:13 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Failure16

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Sequestration was (is) its very own beast.

Oh, yessir.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Cannonshop

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First, love that B-26K image. Favorite aircraft ever. Glad to see it.

Second, umm, CS, the AH-56 program stopped in 1972 and the A-X program that begat the A-10 didn't even exist in its final form until 1970, and it started in 1966 (as a side note, it should be remembered that the A-10 flew off against the A-7D upgrade--itself the winner against the F-5--for the CAS role and won handily). The fight against the AH-56--whose program started in 1966 as well--started much later (officially in 1970-1), but even I cannot say the USAF was wrong in its assertions.

A lot of helos had gone down in Southeast Asia, and the USAF spent a lot of time looking for their own downed fliers in conjunction with helicopters, which is probably where a fair-few A-1s were lost in their role as SAR escorts (hence the reason some will hear Skyraiders being called "Sandies" after their callsigns). They had every reason to say to Congress in 1971 that rotary winged assets had problems against determined air-defenses (see here for an encapsulation of Operation LAM SON 719 which the USAF used to torpedo Army arguments for the AH-56 based on the extensive US helicopter losses).

and the Air Force was STILL trying to cancel the A-10 before the last one came off the production lines at Fairchild...in 1982, in part because the programs it was supposed to bury, got good and buried for a long time.  (*AH-56 was still TECHNICALLY a program until the mid 70s, it was just a program going nowhere but the bin.  AH-64 ended up filling the role, but by then USAF didn't care that much.)

So a 41 year old aircraft, which had its first combat debut nearly a decade after the last one (ever) rolled off Fairchild's line, which has persisted in the role for decades...is inferior?  That's the gist of your position, am I mistaken?

It would be EXPECTED that a newer plane built for the same role will be better, if it isn't, someone needs their engineering degree yanked and someone else needs a budget audit.

thing being, newer aircraft to fill that role aren't being designed or built, because the role is only a role in terms of fighting over pieces of the Defense Pie (For the USAF)that being it isn't a role that's desired beyond securing funding and manning for it.

Kind of like how in the mid-sixties ballistic missiles were supposed to invalidate strategic bombers, so why finish the B-70?



Or, "it's too expensive and we have submarines" so cancel the B-1

or, "Dogfighting is the past, No engagement will happen at close range, the future belongs to BVR"...


So let's build our fighters without guns.

"light fighters are useless!"











Then, something happens...



which is to say, weird shit.  the last one? that's a converted cropduster to do what these were designed for...back in the sixties.



We sit here on a forum and talk about 'peer' and 'near-peer' conflicts like we know what we're talking about.  Dunno about y'all, but I cannot claim to be an expert (at least, not with a straight face), but as an observer with very limited time the Service (and the wrong one, at that), I posit that there are two kinds of military procurement;

Fantasies, and obsessions.

Fantasies surrounding the next war where some superweapon will be the be-all and end-all no casualties victory the bombers will hit them so hard we'll just have to paint the lines.

Obsessions: over the last war, "next war will be Last War but with nifty new toys and we'll win it by doing what worked th last time only better."

Reality, if my reading of history is any indicator, falls somewhere between those two schools of...'thought'.

In the Vietnam era, everyone thought that BVR missiles made dogfighting obsolete.  This was...not borne out in practice.  The two replacements for the B-52 fleet that were proposed, designed, prototyped (one of thm actually made production of a sort) are retiring while the Buff soldiers on.

An aircraft first test flown in the late 1940s.



and it turns out that ballistic missile batteries might be fan-tastic for delivering nuclear packages (at least, in theory, the performance of SCUD in the Iraq war left something to be desired there, and those weren't even intercontinental systems) They don't make up for a box, with wings, that can schlep an ABSURD amount of conventional ordnance over very long distances.

Remember when everyone was hot and bothered by Stealth?



They still are, but we aren't buying fleets of Comanches, it turns out the idea's not that great.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

DOC_Agren

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My 1st thought would be to look at a drone to replace to A10, then I thought about it and nope that last thing we want is a CAS Drone coming in - Hacked and hit your own troops.

I would like to see a new next gen A10, but to keep the armor and gun it still won't be sexy.  Yes it is Slow, but in it's role speed kills.

When I mentioned the A1 being used in CAS, in where I know if it was flying CAS for picking up downed pilots escorting Jolly Green Giants, had a "uncle" who did that.

The armed Cropduster, I think was part of the inspired for an "old BT" support vehicle right after the rules came out, now lost to time.   Tag Team sales team, 1 selling Cropdusters the second selling weapon  that conveniently are designed to "mount" in/on it.  But no we aren't selling combat airframes to rim planets.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Failure16

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and the Air Force was STILL trying to cancel the A-10 before the last one came off the production lines at Fairchild...in 1982, in part because the programs it was supposed to bury, got good and buried for a long time.  (*AH-56 was still TECHNICALLY a program until the mid 70s, it was just a program going nowhere but the bin.  AH-64 ended up filling the role, but by then USAF didn't care that much.).

The AH-56 was cancelled and done for in 1972. The program that begat the AH-64 came on its heels almost immediately. It did not continue on into the mid 1970s, though if it did, I'd love to see the proof so I can know more than I did earlier. And just to say that you saw it on someone's desk at Lockheed in 1977 doesn't count either, since Lockheed never made another serious attempt to build a helicopter. And if they did continue with the AH-56, that was demonstrably stupid since the terms of the cancellation made it clear the AH-56 did not meet the developing requirements for what begat the AH-64*.

The USAF wasn't trying to cancel the A-10 that early so far as I know. Maybe they were. In 1966, the news was about the F-111. In 1974 they were publicly lauding the A-10, though. I do know that they stopped crying about CAS like they were in the early 1970s because Congress effectively told them in 1973 that the AH-56, A-X, and AV-8 were different craft and not replacements for each other**. I also know that the USAF conducted the majority of training CAS missions at NTC during the 19 rotations I spent in the Box in the late-late 90s. No empirical linked data for that, but that statement is not derived from the jets I saw solely with my own eyes.

So a 41 year old aircraft, which had its first combat debut nearly a decade after the last one (ever) rolled off Fairchild's line, which has persisted in the role for decades...is inferior?  That's the gist of your position, am I mistaken?

You are mistaken. The A-10 will rightfully go down in history as one of the best aircraft to have ever functioned in the CAS role (and it should be remembered that CAS is a role or a mission, not an equipment type, just like cavalry is in modern terms***). It will go down alongside the IL2 and F4U in that regard. But, as a longtime fan of the aforementioned B-26K, F-14, and F4U, I realize that times change. I have always loved the A-10, and while I never received CAS from one in real-life, I operated underneath them many times in training at NTC and was 'killed' by one once or twice. In comparison to the faster fixed-wing CAS, they were more visible, more aerobatic, with an artistry to their movements you just didn't get when an F-16 or whathaveyou snapped past. The only jet I saw fly lower were USMC AV-8Bs.

But I am saying that A-10 fanboys are ignoring that fact that the present conflict in Ukraine is closer to the "peer-conflict" you speak so dismissively of (for an individual that speaks as if their opinion is rather more than that), and it shows that the A-10 would be in trouble there...unless the F-35 conducted the SEAD missions it apparently is training for. And even then, SEAD doesn't counter all aspects of an IADS, just the top echelons of it.

It would be EXPECTED that a newer plane built for the same role will be better, if it isn't, someone needs their engineering degree yanked and someone else needs a budget audit.

thing being, newer aircraft to fill that role aren't being designed or built, because the role is only a role in terms of fighting over pieces of the Defense Pie (For the USAF)that being it isn't a role that's desired beyond securing funding and manning for it.

I think the USAF is invested in providing CAS for the US Army. They have said that the F-35 will not conduct CAS missions in the same way the A-10 did/did--and right now it remains to be seen how it will all pan out. I know your thoughts on the F-35, but people said the same things about a lot of other kit. I prefer to let time tell me how they will turn out. Like you, I am not a professional.

Kind of like how in the mid-sixties ballistic missiles were supposed to invalidate strategic bombers, so why finish the B-70?

Why not adopt it? EDIT: You know why, already.

Or, "it's too expensive and we have submarines" so cancel the B-1

Read up on the "Nuclear Defense Triad". Anecdotally, I once got nuked by a B-1 at NTC, from my sister's squadron, no less. In and out in an eyeblink, it was. Care to note how the USAF figured out how to turn the B-1 into a CAS platform?

Nice images, if a tad large. Thanks for including them. I, myself, have been remiss in that regard.




*See Page 9: "On 17 August 1971, a settlement agreement was reached with Lockheed
that provided for completion of CHEYENNE development, and resolved all issues of the production termination litigation. In this settlement, the development contract was restructured to. a cost reimbursement (no fee) type, retroactive to 29 December 1969. Lockheed expenditures prior to that date resulted in a minimum contractor loss of $72.3 million, The production settlement allowed Lockheed to retain previously paid progress payments ($54 million) and provided $33 million for Lockheed settlement of their
sub-contractor claims. The termination inventory was reserved for the beneficial use of the Government in any future CHEYENNE or successor helicopter production contract with Lockheed."

**See Page 9: "In the first months of FY 71, Congressional committees showed an intense interest in CAS aircraft. They were faced with DOD requests to fund three separate CAS aircraft: AH-56A CHEYENNE, AV-811 Harrier, and A-X. The A-X was envisioned by the Air Force as a means of reestablishing that service's responsibility as the primary provider of CAS to ground troops. After considerable study of the merits of each service's system, the committee directed the SECDEF to reevaluate the roles and missions and aircraft options available for CAS. Findings, including a decision as to the aircraft best suited to fill the needs of CAS were to be delivered to the
Appropriations Committee in time for the FY 72 budget hearings. In accordance with Congressional instructions, a DOD CAS study group was formed. The Group found that A-X, CHEYENNE, and Harrier were sufficiently divergent in capability so as to justify all three programs."

***As a true, but tangentially related, aside, it might be well to note that the US Army doctrinally considers rotary-wing units to be maneuver units vice the USMC's doctrinal approach to them being supportive assets. In Vietnam, which is where the whole AH-56/A-10 fracas started, the US Army even considered specialized aviation units as fire support assets (in their "Aerial Rocket Artillery battalions")
« Last Edit: 10 September 2023, 21:55:42 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Cannonshop

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and now, a visit from the island of 'never weres'



XF-V12 supersonic vtol fighter (circa 1970s)



The F-15 concept that was rejected.



Proposed F-108 Rapier

And one that Might've Been:


F-16XL in NASA colours

Oh, and just because we've been having a fun discussion about the A-10, here's a shot of the A-10 and the plane that almost beat it to procurement...
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Failure16

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The A-9 eventually did make it to production...as the SU-25

Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

ANS Kamas P81

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I always liked the looks of the YA-9, and I wonder if they would have gone with the twin Oerlikon KCAs or adapted it to use the GAU-8.  I wonder what the deciding factors were that the Northrop offering wasn't selected.

I've heard the original intent for the A-10 was less CAS and more designed around slaughtering masses of tanks in Europe with Mavericks, while the Su-25 was more of a CAS aircraft intended to support forces on the move.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Cannonshop

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More "never weres":

  There's a nasty story there that didn't get wide publicity involved, including a primary customer who really couldn't settle on what they wanted.  Lockheed predicted that bit better than the 'experts' imported over from Douglass to Boeing did.


XF-8U3, the 'Super Crusader' that lost to the F-4



Look at the image, now, close your eyes, and imagine ejecting...or boarding with the engine running.  XF-107



This is what happens when you bet on politics...and lose.  F-20 Tigershark.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Failure16

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I always liked the looks of the YA-9, and I wonder if they would have gone with the twin Oerlikon KCAs or adapted it to use the GAU-8.  I wonder what the deciding factors were that the Northrop offering wasn't selected.

I've heard the original intent for the A-10 was less CAS and more designed around slaughtering masses of tanks in Europe with Mavericks, while the Su-25 was more of a CAS aircraft intended to support forces on the move.

The A-9 would have had the GAU-8 because that is what the amended proposal in 1972 called for. And yes, tank-killing was on their minds, in europe, and even seeing how things were going in SEA.

GlobalSecurity and all, but it talks succinctly about the A-9/10 flyoff for the A-X program: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-x-1966.htm

Basically, the A-10 was cheaper, more capable, lighter, and simply better. As noted, you never hear about how Northrup fought losing the contract, and that means they knew they were beaten. It's a respectable quality, if rare.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Cannonshop

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The A-9 would have had the GAU-8 because that is what the amended proposal in 1972 called for. And yes, tank-killing was on their minds, in europe, and even seeing how things were going in SEA.

GlobalSecurity and all, but it talks succinctly about the A-9/10 flyoff for the A-X program: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-x-1966.htm

Basically, the A-10 was cheaper, more capable, lighter, and simply better. As noted, you never hear about how Northrup fought losing the contract, and that means they knew they were beaten. It's a respectable quality, if rare.

It was a different, more civilized era.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Another never-was, the YF-23:



Kind of ironic that the plane that beat it only barely was.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

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ANS Kamas P81

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I wish the YB-23 would have survived initial concepts...alas, the Black Widow II was too good for this foul world.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

glitterboy2098

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honestly i wouldn't be surprised if the YF-23 has a descendant cropping up in the 6th gen at some point. my understanding was that it was stealthier, faster, could carry more munitions, and was almost as agile as the F-22.. but the YF-22 had it beat by just enough in the dogfighting department with the thrust vectoring to please the USAF generals, and of course lockheed was claiming a lower per unit price. (which turned out to be massively over ambitious.)

ANS Kamas P81

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The F-22 also demonstrated a live-fire capability during the flight tests that the YF-23 couldn't do, which showed the -22 was a more mature program despite the fly-off still taking place.  But the -23 was definitely stealthier and faster, but it didn't have the thrust vectoring for dogfighting.

And like you said, LockMart underpriced the thing significantly compared to final costs for the program even before it was cut back to the 183 airframes produced.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

chanman

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It was a different, more civilized era.

It's mildly amazing that Northrop is still around as a main contractor given the string of high-profile L's they racked up including McD taking Hornet away from them, but it's not always about the flashy headline projects.

I wish the YB-23 would have survived initial concepts...alas, the Black Widow II was too good for this foul world.

War's an ugly business. Winning ugly is still winning.

chanman

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honestly i wouldn't be surprised if the YF-23 has a descendant cropping up in the 6th gen at some point. my understanding was that it was stealthier, faster, could carry more munitions, and was almost as agile as the F-22.. but the YF-22 had it beat by just enough in the dogfighting department with the thrust vectoring to please the USAF generals, and of course lockheed was claiming a lower per unit price. (which turned out to be massively over ambitious.)

The YF-23 was just a proof-of-concept demonstrator like the X-2 Shinshin. That may have been what was requested, but the YF-22 that Lockheed brought was much closer to a pre-production prototype.



For an ambitious and technically risky project, the YF-22 demonstrated that the Lockheed team had already worked on and addressed some of those technical risks. Basically, that there were fewer things that could go wrong vs. an F-23 which would have necessitated much more substantial changes to the YF-23 to turn it into an actual combat aircraft.

worktroll

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And another bird that never was ... when Gerry Anderson did design for Republic, the F-103.




Mixed powerplants - a ramjet behind a turbojet, with directable airflow; fully variable incident wings (revolving around the main spar); full titanium construction; it was stymied by
- problems working titanium not solved until the Blackbird;
- lack of the powerful engines promised; and
- before the use of area ruling, it would have flown like a brick, not a dart.

But great looking ...



* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
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Daryk

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Was that one of those insane downward ejection seats, or is it merely without one? ???

Failure16

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It was a different, more civilized era.

Touche.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

glitterboy2098

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Was that one of those insane downward ejection seats, or is it merely without one? ???
from the looks of it, a downward ejecting *pod*. notice the pilot's seat is contained within a module. these were played around with a number of early high speed supersonic aircraft, due to the concern that ejecting into supersonic airflow would injure the pilot, if not kill them. most likely that bit above the pilots head is a shield that drops down in the event of ejection, just before the entire assembly is fired downwards out of the aircraft.
so apparently it is even weirder.. there is a shield that slides up to fully encase the pilot.. and it actually triggers if the cockpit loses pressure, creating a sealed life support unit. which has rudimentary controls allowing the pilot to keep flying the plane. when ejecting the pod seals up and then is fired downwards.
« Last Edit: 11 September 2023, 20:07:37 by glitterboy2098 »

Daryk

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Weirder indeed!! ;D

Cannonshop

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A bit of Naval Aviation from the early days:





just a sidebar, but Airships proved impractical when piston engined, cloth aeroplanes armed with rifle caliber guns were still a thing...

or even earlier, though it can be suggested this is the true ancestor of the BUFF.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."