Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 203009 times)

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24875
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #120 on: 09 December 2018, 12:52:54 »
HMS Argyll. Once again, tis a pity we will not see ships of its like any more, it's all stealth cupolas and pyramid heads with a spinning knob on top - and I don't mean the captain...

That's not necessary true.  There still some warships that aren't super stealthy / streamlined.

Japan's lighter destroyers (best way i can describe a navy that calls almost EVERYTHING, even it's carriers due reasons a destroyer) are more boxy and have less stealthy features.  Such as the Murasame class destroyers for example.



Some of their newer ones more stealthy but not by alot though. Akizuki class Destroyer, JS Akizuki.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #121 on: 10 December 2018, 01:25:42 »
Ugh, Japanese destroyers... now they are following the Burke look, but the generation before that must be the ugliest ships alive. Boxy American deckhouses on European open decks.

The Hatsuyuki-class is the nicest of the lot.


Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24875
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #122 on: 11 December 2018, 14:07:12 »
Looks like they may have found the original US Sailing frigate, Bonhomme Richard. Fox reported it was found off the coast of England.

"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
« Last Edit: 11 December 2018, 14:33:50 by glitterboy2098 »

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #124 on: 12 December 2018, 07:05:18 »
Some of their newer ones more stealthy but not by alot though. Akizuki class Destroyer, JS Akizuki.


Her RCS is roughly 40% of the Murasame's. RCS suppression isn't a new concept, but due to the lifespan of ships developments in technologies tend to skip classes that were designed earlier, particularly if those developments change the overall shape. Even though Murasame was built around the same time as RCS became the flavour of the month, her design phase was already complete. New equipment isn t uncommon, but changes to the overall shape are vanishingly rare.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40753
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #125 on: 12 December 2018, 07:56:08 »
Is reduced RCS a matter of putting some effort into cleaner lines and such, or are other technologies involved like radar absorbent materials and stuff?
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10424
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #126 on: 12 December 2018, 09:37:02 »
Is reduced RCS a matter of putting some effort into cleaner lines and such, or are other technologies involved like radar absorbent materials and stuff?

YES. (yes to both)  Reducing RCS requires both materials technology and 'cleaner' lines.  they go together-you can't get teh cleaner lines without the materials tech, and the materials tech won't give effective results without changing the lines.

Cleaner lines will give a marginal improvement, and a lot of the advanced absorbent materials really don't work without cleaner lines because of structural concerns, but it's like with the old vulcan bombers-they had a 'smaller' RCS than equivalent sized aircraft of the same generation, however they weren't genuinely stealth aircraft any more than the YB-49 was.  to get stealthy, targeting-systems-effecting RCS reduction, you NEED to have both the cleaner lnes, AND the advanced materials.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13208
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #127 on: 12 December 2018, 18:34:59 »
Biggest thing for getting rid of RCS on a ship is eliminating every curved surface you can.  Round objects have a point on them, at any angle, where they're perfectly reflecting right back at the emitter; if you look real close at a Burke for example you'll see that even things like railings are trapezoidal in shape.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/US_Navy_070820-N-9758L-180_Sailors_on_board_Arleigh_Burke-class_guided-missile_destroyer_USS_O%27Kane_%28DDG_70%29_man_the_rails_as_she_makes_her_way_pier_side_to_Naval_Station_Pearl_Harbor.jpg
(It's a really big image)

The other thing is getting rid of every 90 degree angle you can.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector  So you get slight tapers on things, mostly, and things angled just a little off axis. 

Granted you can't do that with EVERYTHING on a ship, but you can tone the returns down a lot.  Maybe you can't convince an incoming ASM you don't exist, but you can make it get a lot closer before it finally sees you and launches - maybe even within your own air defense envelope, and bag the shooter before they can fire.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24875
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #128 on: 13 December 2018, 07:48:39 »
Biggest thing for getting rid of RCS on a ship is eliminating every curved surface you can.  Round objects have a point on them, at any angle, where they're perfectly reflecting right back at the emitter; if you look real close at a Burke for example you'll see that even things like railings are trapezoidal in shape.


(It's a really big image)

The other thing is getting rid of every 90 degree angle you can.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector  So you get slight tapers on things, mostly, and things angled just a little off axis. 

Granted you can't do that with EVERYTHING on a ship, but you can tone the returns down a lot.  Maybe you can't convince an incoming ASM you don't exist, but you can make it get a lot closer before it finally sees you and launches - maybe even within your own air defense envelope, and bag the shooter before they can fire.
You can do in the future, just do img button and where it says [ img ] (i'm spacing it so it' doesn't mess up. you can do [ img width=499] (hyperlink) [ /img ] It will reduce the picture size no matter how big.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24875
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #129 on: 13 December 2018, 08:09:21 »
HMS Dreadnought, launched in 1906. The ship that changed modern warfare for Battleship era.



The Dreadnought, perhaps needs no introductions.  She was ship that put capital "B" in name Battleship.  Her revolutionary design, changed many things, all ships built prior to her became pre-Dreadnoughts.   

The ship itself perhaps less active, perhaps because her being the prototype of new generation of warships, the Dreadnought didn't do whole lot in her career.  However, from 1906 to 1911, she was most powerful warship afloat.  She was mainly used a flagship for entire fleet, to respective squadrons of follow-on designs.

During World War I, she had one significant action during the war.  She is only Battleship to ever sink submarine, purposely.  You would think "How did they do that?"  You do it the old fashion way, you ram it!  After one her squadron mates were fired on (HMS Neptune), she purposely went after the submarine U-29 had broken the surface. She managed cut the submarine in two, while nearly colliding with another British ship in the process.   
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #130 on: 13 December 2018, 08:49:48 »
Her revolutionary design, changed many things, all ships built prior to her became pre-Dreadnoughts.   
Been looking up a bit when the term appeared. It seems to first have been used in 1909 in British debates on the Navy, with First Lord of the Admiralty McKenna being about the only one who used it at the time.

The term Dreadnought itself was first used as a collective term - for HMS Dreadnought, the three Bellerophones and the three St.Vincents - in 1908, though occasionally - in particular by McKenna - also including the Invincible battlecruisers termend '"Dreadnought" type cruisers'.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40753
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #131 on: 13 December 2018, 09:38:05 »
You can do in the future, just do img button and where it says [ img ] (i'm spacing it so it' doesn't mess up. you can do [ img width=499] (hyperlink) [ /img ] It will reduce the picture size no matter how big.

That reduces the picture's on-screen dimensions(and we do encourage that because pictures that don't fit in a screen are always a pain), but does nothing to reduce the amount of data these large images are shoving through the forum's bandwidth. It's also not doing any favors to any forum members who may not have an infinite data plan on whatever device they use to come here. He is right to link the way he did, please do the same. C:-)
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21696
  • Third time this week!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #132 on: 13 December 2018, 10:18:50 »
An interesting thing about Dreadnought... she was one of three ships that all were developed at roughly the same time by different countries to switch to an all-big gun setup, with none of them aware of the plans of the other two (Japan's Settsu ended up being given mid-size guns during construction due to a lack of heavy gun availability, and the American South Carolina took a long time to finish up despite starting before Dreadnought).

Where Dreadnought stands head and shoulders above those contemporaries is the turbine engines. Combining that engine power (a huge improvement over standard triple-expansion systems) with that increase in main battery power was the real secret to Dreadnought, not just the gun switch alone. Truly a revolutionary ship from the keel up in almost every respect.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Ruger

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5561
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #133 on: 13 December 2018, 12:28:41 »
An interesting thing about Dreadnought... she was one of three ships that all were developed at roughly the same time by different countries to switch to an all-big gun setup, with none of them aware of the plans of the other two (Japan's Settsu ended up being given mid-size guns during construction due to a lack of heavy gun availability, and the American South Carolina took a long time to finish up despite starting before Dreadnought).

I believe you mean Satsuma for the Japanese warship...

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21696
  • Third time this week!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #134 on: 13 December 2018, 12:46:15 »
I believe you mean Satsuma for the Japanese warship...

Ruger

Doh! You're correct, had my names backwards.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Nightlord01

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #135 on: 15 December 2018, 01:39:16 »
Is reduced RCS a matter of putting some effort into cleaner lines and such, or are other technologies involved like radar absorbent materials and stuff?

There are four fundamental factors influencing target observability, size, shape, construction materials and aspect. From the emitter aspect observability is influenced by wavelength, pulse repetition, aerial rotation period and pulses per paint most notably.

Observability is something that needs to be introduced in the design phase by reducing or eliminating certain angles and radar traps, reducing overall size as much as possible and using a descerning eye with materials. Initial in service trials should include a full spectrum survey to determine the best angle to show a seeker, to present the smallest target.

It is a massive field with applications in ship building, avaition, space and beaconing of all types. I find it oddly fascinating, not just the applications, but defeating it as well. :-)

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #136 on: 15 December 2018, 06:55:59 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Euphonium

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1973
  • Look Ma, no Faction!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #137 on: 15 December 2018, 07:42:20 »
That's beautiful, marauder648!
>>>>[You're only jealous because the voices don't talk to you]<<<<

Euphonium

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1973
  • Look Ma, no Faction!
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #138 on: 15 December 2018, 07:47:50 »
Here's an interesting story I stumbled across on Facebook:

Quote
The passenger steamer SS Warrimoo was quietly knifing its way through the waters of the mid-Pacific on its way from Vancouver to Australia. The navigator had just finished working out a star fix and brought Captain John DS. Phillips, the result. The Warrimoo's position was LAT 0º 31' N and LONG 179 30' W. The date was 31 December 1899. "Know what this means?" First Mate Payton broke in, "We're only a few miles from the intersection of the Equator and the International Date Line". Captain Phillips was prankish enough to take full advantage of the opportunity for achieving the navigational freak of a lifetime.

He called his navigators to the bridge to check & double check the ship's position. He changed course slightly so as to bear directly on his mark. Then he adjusted the engine speed.

The calm weather & clear night worked in his favor. At mid-night the SS Warrimoo lay on the Equator at exactly the point where it crossed the International Date Line! The consequences of this bizarre position were many:
The forward part (bow) of the ship was in the Southern Hemisphere & in the middle of summer.
The rear (stern) was in the Northern Hemisphere & in the middle of winter.
The date in the aft part of the ship was 31 December 1899.
In the bow (forward) part it was 1 January 1900.

This ship was therefore not only in:
Two different days,
Two different months,
Two different years,
Two different seasons
But in two different centuries - all at the same time!

Original article at https://www.facebook.com/pacificyachtingmagazine/posts/2245473715477547
Copy/pasted because not everyone has Facebook
>>>>[You're only jealous because the voices don't talk to you]<<<<

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37046
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #139 on: 15 December 2018, 09:18:16 »
Nice find, Euphonium!  That's the kind of thing that would normally get a Navy crew disciplined, awesome or not.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #140 on: 15 December 2018, 10:05:58 »
Well, SS is a commercial merchant marine ship from the US- like HMS stood for a Brit commercial ship like HMS Titantic.  USN ships are the USS Whatever.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37046
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #141 on: 15 December 2018, 10:06:50 »
That would be why they "got away" with it... :)

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #142 on: 15 December 2018, 10:19:42 »
Heck, the company may have appreciated the PR from logging that sort of thing.  Honestly in our age of media/PR I wonder why someone did not try to duplicate the feat which would add being in 2 different millenniums!
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37046
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #143 on: 15 December 2018, 10:21:36 »
Time is money... even a small detour can get you in trouble with the bean counters.

Ghost0402

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1267
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #144 on: 15 December 2018, 10:23:34 »
Well, SS is a commercial merchant marine ship from the US- like HMS stood for a Brit commercial ship like HMS Titantic.  USN ships are the USS Whatever.
RMS for Titanic, Royal Mail Ship/Steamer.  SS was a standard designation for steam ship back in the day.
"Kiss my hairy ass Falcon,"  Star Colonel Onyx,  17th Wolf Regulars Cluster, Clan Wolf  Wars of Reaving.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #145 on: 15 December 2018, 11:06:22 »
Lol, yeah I have the Royal Navy designation . . . its what I get for having the kid under foot.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Feenix74

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3026
  • Lam's Phoenix Hawks
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #146 on: 18 December 2018, 07:42:36 »
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-18/japan-to-launch-first-aircraft-carriers-since-wwii/10632254

I wonder if they will be classified by the Japanese as an Aircraft Carrier or will they class it as a VTOL Destroyer?
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


                                   - excepts from Murphy's Laws of Combat

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #147 on: 18 December 2018, 07:47:03 »
Multifunctional through-deck destroyer ;D

Quote
Japanese officials brushed off the criticism, saying the Izumo will be a multifunctional warship used as an aircraft carrier only when necessary for national defence.

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2583
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #148 on: 18 December 2018, 07:47:46 »
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-18/japan-to-launch-first-aircraft-carriers-since-wwii/10632254

I wonder if they will be classified by the Japanese as an Aircraft Carrier or will they class it as a VTOL Destroyer?


Multifunctional through-deck destroyer ;D



Hai! a modified Nimitz-class super-carrier[/strike] aircraft carrying destroyer??
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #149 on: 18 December 2018, 08:27:32 »
Well to be fair... look at the USS America, a landing "helicopter" "amphibious" assault ship that operates more aircraft than helicopters and is neither itself amphibious nor operates amphibious landing craft