Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 203258 times)

Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #450 on: 07 February 2019, 04:58:47 »
If my memory serves me correctly, back in WWI the wireless radio sets were not really small enough to be aircraft mountable (and your standard aircraft did not have much of a payload capacity or electricity generating capacity) and were not man-portable. The army generally used wired telephones to communicate between trenches and back to the rear areas.

Most artillery bombardments were co-ordinated by time and involved general bombardment of the target area. A number of allied attacks failed miserably and with heavy casualties when the co-ordination between the lifting of the artillery bombardment and the advance of the infantry broke down allowing the German troops to man their trenches and machine guns. Hopefully, Charlie 6 can come along and correct any errors in my memory.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #451 on: 07 February 2019, 05:28:53 »
If my memory serves me correctly, back in WWI the wireless radio sets were not really small enough to be aircraft mountable
British, French and German artilllery spotter aircraft and night bombers had wireless radio transmitters in various forms by late 1916/early 1917, earlier on - since late 1914/early 1915 - typically transmitting with wireless telegraphs in morse code instead.

That was limited to those three though. Everyone else was virtually dead silent in the air.
« Last Edit: 07 February 2019, 05:30:43 by kato »

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #452 on: 07 February 2019, 08:33:32 »
Good point with WWI technology - I was thinking of WWII, namely the monitors Erebus and Terror.  Reasons why I shouldn't post at 4am...
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #453 on: 07 February 2019, 08:39:44 »
Speaking of Radar, there the old USS Spinax SS-489. She was launched in 1946, and was converted to server as a Radar Picket Submarine in late 1940s.  She was experiment in seeing if Radar picket submarines would be useful, she was more extensively modified with half dozen submarines.



She by the 1960s was converted back to regular submarine and eventually retired & scrapped in 1972 when refits were not feasible.
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Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #454 on: 07 February 2019, 08:41:37 »
Speaking of Radar, there the old USS Spinax SS-489. She was launched in 1946, and was converted to server as a Radar Picket Submarine in late 1940s.  She was experiment in seeing if Radar picket submarines would be useful, she was more extensively modified with half dozen submarines.



She by the 1960s was converted back to regular submarine and eventually retired & scrapped in 1972 when refits were not feasible.

Geez, you'd hate a posting to that sub. Imagine a sub having to use radar?  :D

grimlock1

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #455 on: 07 February 2019, 08:59:50 »
What books that? And I loved the look of the Sea Shadow, a useful tesbed for sure.
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as it turned out, Sea Shadow was a bit too stealthy.. it generated a return smaller than that of the noise from the waves on the surface, so a radar set properly would be able to find it as an empty point in the noise.

Even before I saw NightLord's comment, something smelled fishy about that.  By the time you scale it up, and add all the kibble associated with a serving warship, that problem would go away.

This, Sea Shadow was purely R&D, I'm going to guess that she didn't have a lot of space and weight capacity for weaponry, and was too slow for anything the USN really wanted her for. Not to mention that she was likely quite observable on sonar, which is much harder to hide from than radar.
The diesel engines were up in the main body, and the pontoons had electric motors.  Not saying that turns this thing into the Red October, but I have to imagine there are worse starting points.

I'd also suggest that with her superstructure shape means she's going to dig that bow into a serious wave pretty damn hard.  Buoyancy will try to push it upwards, while the shape going through the water is going to push it down, and I can't imagine something slapped together as a rough prototype is built for that kind of impact and stress.  She'd turn into a stealth submarine pretty quick, I fear.
Stealth shapes and ship shapes seem even more incompatible than stealth shapes and airplanes!  I've dug no deeper than wiki, but the Tumblehome hull of the Zumwalt has some stability issues.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #456 on: 07 February 2019, 12:23:58 »
Geez, you'd hate a posting to that sub. Imagine a sub having to use radar?  :D
She and her sisters were more of a replacement for the radar picket destroyers in World War II, that took a beating at Okinawa, by role. The idea was that if the planes were come straight at her, she could submerge and hide. Ned Beach's Triton (SSRN-586) was the ultimate expression of that idea, but the deployment of the E-1 Tracer and E-2A Hawkeye gave far better radar coverage in a better platform.

Also, a snorkel equipped Tench class submarine is closer to a surface torpedo boat that can dive rather than a true submarine.
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #457 on: 07 February 2019, 12:51:03 »
Taiwan, land of retired US Destroyers until the modern missile age.

1970s naval yard in Taiwan.


Modernized Gearing Class ship, Liao Yang. (not related to house Liao's ruling family)
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #458 on: 07 February 2019, 14:27:01 »
She and her sisters were more of a replacement for the radar picket destroyers in World War II, that took a beating at Okinawa, by role. The idea was that if the planes were come straight at her, she could submerge and hide. Ned Beach's Triton (SSRN-586) was the ultimate expression of that idea, but the deployment of the E-1 Tracer and E-2A Hawkeye gave far better radar coverage in a better platform.

Also, a snorkel equipped Tench class submarine is closer to a surface torpedo boat that can dive rather than a true submarine.

The radar pickets also played a role in terms of terminal guidance for early cruise missiles like the Mace and Regulus, that needed command direction.

But yes, the idea of the holes in the hull to tuck those dishes away ...

W.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #459 on: 07 February 2019, 14:49:01 »
The first Japanese battleship lost in WWII, Hiei, has been found. As seems to always be the case, it's courtesy of the late Paul Allen's RV Petrel.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/06/40942
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #460 on: 07 February 2019, 15:34:12 »
I wonder how much of Ironbottom Sound is mapped by now, with the wrecks located.
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #461 on: 07 February 2019, 19:10:56 »
The first Japanese battleship lost in WWII, Hiei, has been found. As seems to always be the case, it's courtesy of the late Paul Allen's RV Petrel.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/06/40942

Considering his many similarities to Bond Villains, are we sure he's actually dead? Did the funeral involve a burial at sea from his yacht with the minisub?  ;)

Joking aside, I'm happy to hear that his foundation is continuing its shipwreck search activities.

HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #462 on: 07 February 2019, 21:21:13 »
I wonder how much of Ironbottom Sound is mapped by now, with the wrecks located.
Technically she wasn't sunk in Ironbottom Sound. She was crippled and was steaming away in the Slot until the US warplanes engaged her.
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DaveMac

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #463 on: 08 February 2019, 03:09:08 »
Not completely accurate but gives a good idea of what wrecks are there

https://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/solomons/guadalcanal/maps/map-iron-bottom-sound-shipwrecks.html
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nerd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #464 on: 08 February 2019, 12:38:30 »
The radar pickets also played a role in terms of terminal guidance for early cruise missiles like the Mace and Regulus, that needed command direction.

But yes, the idea of the holes in the hull to tuck those dishes away ...

W.
Not as much as you'd think. Topside, Fleet Boats had a deck casing that's a free flood area. It's like a back yard deck where there's wood mounted with a gap. It's far enough up the gear could easily fold into the deck and not impact the pressure hull. The holes I'd be worried about would be the cable penetrations into the CIC. Small holes are enough to start big leaks under pressure.
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Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #465 on: 09 February 2019, 07:25:17 »
HMS Peterel was a river gunboat based in Shanghai, China.



Quote from: wikipedia
By December 1941 Shanghai (aside from the International Settlement and French Concession), had been occupied by Japan's land forces and there was a large buildup of Japanese naval forces in the area. At around 4:20am local time on 8 December 1941 news of the attack on Pearl Harbor, a few hours earlier, began filtering through to Shanghai. HMS Peterel was notified of the attack by Commander Kennedy from the British Consulate and the ship was called to battle stations.

Soon after the news of the attack on Pearl Harbor reached Shanghai, Japanese marines boarded the US Navy river gunboat, USS Wake. She surrendered without a shot being fired (the only US Navy ship to surrender during World War II). The Japanese later commissioned her into their navy as the Tatara and subsequently gave her to its puppet Reorganized National Government of China based in Nanjing.

Although Japan had not declared war on Great Britain, Japanese marines also boarded the Peterel to demand her surrender. Polkinghorn attempted to stall for time, in order for the demolition fuses to be lit and the code books to be passed down a special chute in order to be burned in the boiler room. When his attempts failed, Polkinghorn told them to "Get off my bloody ship!" The Japanese disembarked and almost immediately the Japanese cruiser Izumo, the accompanying gunboat Toba and Japanese shore batteries in the French Concession opened fire at almost point-blank range. Despite being outnumbered and hopelessly outgunned, the Royal Navy crew of HMS Peterel returned fire, using small arms and the deck-mounted Lewis machine guns (the breechblocks from her 3-inch guns having been removed and taken to the Royal Navy dockyard in Hong Kong). The Royal Navy crew inflicted several casualties on the Japanese before Peterel capsized and drifted from its mooring under heavy fire. The Japanese machine gunned both the surviving Royal Navy and locally recruited Chinese crewmen in the water.

Of the British crew of 22, 18 were on board Peterel at the time of the attack. Six of them were killed by the Japanese; they have no known graves and it is unclear whether their bodies were recovered from the water. 12 Royal Navy crew survived: some sought refuge on a neutral Panamanian-registered merchant vessel, the SS Marizion. In violation of international law, the Japanese boarded the ship and took the survivors prisoner. The number of casualties suffered by the locally recruited non-combatant Chinese crew and the fate of any survivors at the hands of the Japanese is unknown (under a directive ratified on 5 August 1937 by Emperor Hirohito, the Japanese removed the constraints of international law on the treatment of Chinese prisoners by its military).

The Royal Navy survivors from HMS Peterel (including Polkinghorn) were moved amongst the Hongchew, Kiang Wang and Woosung internment camps in China. Ongoing supplies received from the British Residents Association (Shanghai) and the International Red Cross were critical to the survival of those interned. On 9 May 1945 the inmates at Kiang Wang were moved to camps in Japan itself.

Three of the crew of HMS Peterel were onshore during the Japanese attack; two were captured but the third (PO Telegraphist James Cuming) remained at large in Shanghai for the duration of the war, working for a Sino-American spy ring. The Lonely Battle, an account of Cuming's tale, was written by Desmond Wettern in 1960.

Polkinghorn survived his three years and nine months in captivity. He was awarded a gallantry medal, the Distinguished Service Cross (DSC), for his actions in Shanghai. The citation (published in The London Gazette on 23 October 1945) reads: "For great courage, determination and tenacity in fighting his ship, HMS Peterel, when attacked by overwhelming Japanese forces at Shanghai on 8th December 1941".

USS Wake river gunboat that is mentioned

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #466 on: 12 February 2019, 13:16:42 »
Well, the Hornet has been found by Petrel . . . it was found back in January . . . same group also just announced finding a Japanese battleship?



And its resting place, looks like its on Mars!




Anyone need a used tractor?

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #467 on: 12 February 2019, 13:59:20 »
That sonar picture seems to show that she reached the ground backwards.  You can see the shadow of the conning tower on the starboard side of the ship, which means the bow is pointing "up" in that picture.  There's a buildup of seafloor material at the stern, and a clear trail through the seafloor at the bow.  Interesting situation, especially as she doesn't show any noticeable list.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #468 on: 12 February 2019, 14:29:57 »
Great news. It was a beautiful ship.
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Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #469 on: 13 February 2019, 02:58:10 »
That sonar picture seems to show that she reached the ground backwards.  You can see the shadow of the conning tower on the starboard side of the ship, which means the bow is pointing "up" in that picture.  There's a buildup of seafloor material at the stern, and a clear trail through the seafloor at the bow.  Interesting situation, especially as she doesn't show any noticeable list.

That trail is most likely caused by oceanic currents, no way a furrow dragged by a ship will remain observable after 70 years, the ocean floor is a far more dynamic environment than land.

Currents would also explain why there's a buildup around the stern, as the current would be slowed and deposit its silt there, when it worked its way around the ship.


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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #470 on: 13 February 2019, 03:22:28 »
Considering what she went through doesn't look in bad condition at all
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #471 on: 13 February 2019, 10:05:20 »
That trail is most likely caused by oceanic currents, no way a furrow dragged by a ship will remain observable after 70 years, the ocean floor is a far more dynamic environment than land.

Currents would also explain why there's a buildup around the stern, as the current would be slowed and deposit its silt there, when it worked its way around the ship.

Yeah, I was trying to balance that observation with the sonar shadow being 'higher' at the stern.
Colt Ward
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #472 on: 14 February 2019, 09:59:01 »
2 Type 55s fitting out


Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #473 on: 14 February 2019, 10:11:42 »
The painted flags make great aim points . . .
Colt Ward
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #474 on: 14 February 2019, 14:17:39 »
Seeing as its Valentines Day







I'm not appologising.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #475 on: 14 February 2019, 14:40:33 »
Should use this . . .



Surprise, be my valentine!  ?
Colt Ward
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Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #476 on: 15 February 2019, 05:19:27 »
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


                                   - excepts from Murphy's Laws of Combat

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #477 on: 15 February 2019, 12:44:00 »
That AA mount looks pretty fresh! And the cabling.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #478 on: 15 February 2019, 12:51:04 »
yeah, why I remarked on that tractor . . . but when you are that deep and that cold . . .
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #479 on: 17 February 2019, 08:15:26 »
I thought the ocean liked to eat wood over the years. That flight deck looks like in some good shape.
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