Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 203122 times)

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #900 on: 01 July 2019, 21:13:50 »
Look at the sortie cost, loiter time over target, limited number of penetrators carried in inventory, aircraft maintenance requirements, cost per ton of HE, and other metrics . . . today's carriers cannot mount air ops to replicate WWII let alone Vietnam era (hey Newport News & BBs) NGFS.
WW2 and even Vietnam era effects per munition expended computations are, I think, a magnitude or so removed from now.

How many 16-inch shells would Iowa need to blast a grid square worth of enemy tanks out in the open? How many Nam era Mk.82 Snake-eyes?

Compare to today, how many SDB II glide bombs? (I... can't bring myself to use its name...)

Quote
Without going into rocket assist rounds, your looking at a modern 155mm Artillery (snip) being able to put rounds on target 15 or so miles which will be beyond reach of shore based torpedo attacks.
Leaving aside the missile story, which is well addressed by cruise missile development... Charlie 6 once had a lot to say about that 15 mile range.

155mm Vulcano supposedly can reach up to 120km. Supposedly. My 2 cents: you need at least that much stand-off range to not worry about Harpoonski shore batteries. Hence IMO the only real hope is for that 300km+ hypersonic sabot round they're supposedly developing.

Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #901 on: 01 July 2019, 22:18:44 »
Not sure you are getting my post, I agreed the Battleship article was click bait- that barring a really odd and drastic set of circumstances they would never be commissioned again.  What I suggested would be better for Naval Gunfire Support would be a light cruiser-sized vessel using off the self (or like the Crusader, researched but cancelled), current inventory systems and munitions to meet the requirement.  Give it some ASW or AA capability (I am in favor of AA) and it serves a dual purpose in Amphib TFs.

A single MLRS battery of the time, 9 launchers, wrecked a brigade in a grid square+ as I understand Desert Storm firing standard munitions- DPICM- which is a rocket & shell munitions that is like Rockeyes.  Charlie 6's experience IIRC is with towed?  I was referencing the canceled Crusader program which was said to put 8 rounds on the same target ToT b/c of the ballistics computer & stabilization- I totally grant you its not doing it from 15 miles.

MLRS is not cruise missiles, its a LOT cheaper- Multiple Launch Rocket System.  They can fire a single missile instead of a 6 pack of rockets which is why I gave a rough range for it, but we also joked about them being million dollar mistakes if you got anything wrong in the set up.

NGFS is not about suppressing defense installations once, its about providing on call fire support for Marines (or the Army) while they do not have their own batteries ashore.  Your cruise missiles and airstrikes suppress the anti-ship sites and then the gun cruiser moves into range while you send forces ashore.  Cruise missile strikes are not suited to on call fire- because like I said its a expensive round- both because of time of response and accuracy for danger close.  They are also not reloaded quickly into many of the best first strike platforms.  Air strikes are fine, but they are not going to be on station around the clock and the carrier itself will have its combat capabilities degraded or may be called away.

Just a couple of quick numbers . . . the cost per round of the latest unguided 155mm shell is 1k, the GPS guided 155mm shell is 30k but supposed to be accurate out to 40k but I cannot find if that is with rocket assist or base bleed.  The 227mm Rockets have a couple of different options for the payload- like HE or DPICM- but the unguided cost I could not find but obviously less than guided and the latest guided out to 40 miles for a cost of 90k a pod (15k per), and the ATACMS as I said were supposed to be a mil a bang.

By comparison, each Tomahawk costs $832k . . . a Mk 82 half ton bomb costs 2k but it costs per DoD 30k an hour to fly the F-35A (probably close for the C) and 11k an hour to fly a Super Hornet.  A cruiser or destroyer will be cheaper to operate than a carrier but the submarine operating as a Tomahawk platform might be cheaper to operate than a surface combatant.

As far as anti-ship missiles . . . yeah, it can happen but just like WWII destroyers and cruisers moved in for NGFS, you develop a doctrine to minimize those risks (like firing DPICM at launch sites at 40 miles to suppress).

Btw that rail gun?  On a ship its still going to have to get within 5 miles (more like 3.1 at sea level) to fire on a shore based target . . . and IIRC its going to be a vastly different danger close situation.
Colt Ward
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #902 on: 02 July 2019, 01:17:46 »
Not sure you are getting my post

Oh I agree fully with what you say; plus you pointed out the MLRS which is true, I had forgotten that; the Marines recently tested its use from deck-mounted HIMARS and it dovetails nicely with the new Tactical Missile program

Quote
the latest guided out to 40 miles for a cost of 90k a pod (15k per), and the ATACMS as I said were supposed to be a mil a bang.
I'm surprised if guided MLRS is only 15k per, even a JDAM kit is about twice that

Tomahawk is more than $1m by now I think, inflation and all

But it gets really complicated to start factoring platform costs and so on

Quote
As far as anti-ship missiles . . . yeah, it can happen but just like WWII destroyers and cruisers moved in for NGFS, you develop a doctrine to minimize those risks (like firing DPICM at launch sites at 40 miles to suppress).
Just pointing out the standoff range necessary

Quote
Btw that rail gun?  On a ship its still going to have to get within 5 miles (more like 3.1 at sea level) to fire on a shore based target . . . and IIRC its going to be a vastly different danger close situation.
it's not going to be a flat trajectory weapon, but a method of boosting naval artillery range to pretty incredible distances

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #903 on: 02 July 2019, 02:53:05 »
The current price of GMLRS rockets (basis: March 2019 contract) is 115,000 USD, cost of 1/6th pod included.

As for Vulcano - since it was mentioned - the idea is not about "15 miles inshore from outside the range of torpedos", but about "50 miles inshore from outside territorial waters". It is also subcaliber - basically a unitary 90mm warhead with about the throw weight of a 120mm mortar shell and the volume of fire and sustain of a mortar platoon selectable straight from your artillery network; in direct support of troops always guided precision strike since at 3-minute flight times you can't exactly walk the rounds on target.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #904 on: 02 July 2019, 08:25:49 »
Surprise!



No, i mean HMS Surprise (formerly known as HMS Rose, replica of a British 20-gun sixth-rate post ship.

She now in San Diego, she was used in the film Master and Commander: The Far side of the World.  She was rebuilt for the film, but museum bought it from the 20th Century fox, now she restored to be able sail once again.  This picture is from 2014, i hope she in better shape than that.  You can see the aging exSoviet Submarine, the B-39, behind her at the Maritime Museum she displaced at.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #905 on: 02 July 2019, 09:35:32 »
The current price of GMLRS rockets (basis: March 2019 contract) is 115,000 USD, cost of 1/6th pod included.

As for Vulcano - since it was mentioned - the idea is not about "15 miles inshore from outside the range of torpedos", but about "50 miles inshore from outside territorial waters". It is also subcaliber - basically a unitary 90mm warhead with about the throw weight of a 120mm mortar shell and the volume of fire and sustain of a mortar platoon selectable straight from your artillery network; in direct support of troops always guided precision strike since at 3-minute flight times you can't exactly walk the rounds on target.

Okay so I might have been misreading the price, I found 90k but was basing that on the full pod so it becomes 15k per round.  Lol, trying to find the prices I kept getting estimated ranges which I know but could not find any current prices.

And yeah, FOs can still walk that fire in even with 3 minute flights . . . 'Shot, over' . . . 'Splash' . . . "up 3, left 20, over" . . . and by God do not say repeat until you mean it.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #906 on: 02 July 2019, 18:20:52 »

USS Milwaukee (LCS-5) as she passing locks in Canada as she making her way out to the Atlantic in 2015
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #907 on: 02 July 2019, 21:15:54 »
I did not know battleships were this fat.


dgorsman

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #908 on: 02 July 2019, 21:56:06 »
Keep forgetting it was normal for large ships of that era to carry a float plane or two.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #909 on: 02 July 2019, 22:24:50 »
Helped with stability for the guns . . . if a 16 is knockin, the boat will be rockin.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #910 on: 02 July 2019, 22:33:25 »
BB got aft.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #911 on: 02 July 2019, 23:57:06 »
If my memory serves me correctly, the USN BBs were designed to fit through the Panama Canal, which limited them to being able to fit through the 34 m wide locks of the Panama Canal.

Incoming fire has the right of way.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #912 on: 03 July 2019, 00:30:23 »
There's about twelve inches of clearance on either side of that.  And of course there's the length requirement as well, gotta fit between the locks. 

Do ships in the Gatun lake transiting through the canal operate on their own power, or are they under tow?
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #913 on: 03 July 2019, 01:14:05 »
There's about twelve inches of clearance on either side of that.  And of course there's the length requirement as well, gotta fit between the locks. 

That is some tight fit!!!  :o

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #914 on: 03 July 2019, 01:40:59 »


Quote
The Iowa Class Battleships were the widest ships to ever traverse the canals, with a beam of 108 feet against the canal's width of just 110 feet, leaving only inches to spare on either side.
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/iowa-class-battleships-are-the-widest-ships-to-ever-use-1680273877

Literally 12 inches on either side.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #915 on: 03 July 2019, 03:55:10 »
All ships up to WW2 were designed to fit thru the Panama Canal with a max beam of 108 feet. Essex and Iowas were the largest ships to fit. There was a idea to make the locks larger so the Midway and Montana class ships could move thru. That design of the larger locks has yet to still come together. Only a Panamax container ship and Cruise Ships are larger than the Iowa class to pass thru.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #916 on: 03 July 2019, 05:45:28 »
Actually they built them, the New Panamax locks are operating.  1401ft/427m length, 180ft/55m beam, and 60ft/18m draft.  Still can't push CVNs through them because they're too tall to clear the bridges and the beam overhang would be knocking cranes and other dockside equipment around, and we keep those pretty localized as far as the Pacific and Atlantic go anyway.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #917 on: 03 July 2019, 06:00:15 »
Not much details have come out, but since no one spoke of it. There was fire on Monday aboard a secretive Russian Nuclear-Submarine, Losharik (AS-12)  as reported on USNI's news section.  14 sailors lost their lives when fire happened, they managed to put the fires and the ship was towed back to the Northern Fleet navalbase. Terrible thing they died, but they saved their fellow shipmates, my heart goes out to their families.



The ship was among the secret/hushup leftovers from the Cold War Era, but they're still in use.  The Losharik was meant for Special Ops, though what kind research it was doing we may not know.  It was said it was originally intended to tap into communication cables that lay below on the ocean bottom, which would make sense. More recently, the ship was reported doing research in the Arctic Ocean. What is interesting to me, this is a 2,000 ton nuclear submarine that uses a modified Delta-III Stretched SSBN to act as the mothership to it and apparently other small SSNs.  I had heard of the Delta III Stretch submarine, but like anyone with publicly available information, not clarify why it was stretched.



« Last Edit: 03 July 2019, 06:02:37 by Wrangler »
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #918 on: 03 July 2019, 06:22:13 »
Damn.  "The fire was extinguished “thanks to the self-sacrificing actions of the team,” the ministry said."  What I've heard before, amongst the submarine service, "whatever you do, you save the boat" is the mindset.  I imagine it'd be the same over there.

After watching the funeral aboard Glomar Explorer, I do wonder what the Russian service is.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #919 on: 03 July 2019, 09:07:59 »
Its not just subs, its a rule among all naval vessels afaik-  I saw a yellowed piece of paper pinned up on the BB-35 Texas that admonished crew members that if the ship was hit, a crewman's best chance to save his buddies was to save the ship.

For the Panama Canal, they are under tow afaik (some of the old black & white photos posted earlier on what refit it was with US BBs showed tows) since it reduces their wakes somewhat.  Ship wakes cause erosion on the Lake and IIRC they have had to take steps over the decades to combat that to keep things clear.

Apparently in the western Pacific . . .

Colt Ward
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #920 on: 03 July 2019, 09:43:50 »
Its not just subs, its a rule among all naval vessels afaik-  I saw a yellowed piece of paper pinned up on the BB-35 Texas that admonished crew members that if the ship was hit, a crewman's best chance to save his buddies was to save the ship.

For the Panama Canal, they are under tow afaik (some of the old black & white photos posted earlier on what refit it was with US BBs showed tows) since it reduces their wakes somewhat.  Ship wakes cause erosion on the Lake and IIRC they have had to take steps over the decades to combat that to keep things clear.

Apparently in the western Pacific . . .



Nice photos with the islands on the other side.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #921 on: 03 July 2019, 10:20:55 »
Yeah, I am not sure its not something off with the photo . . the news story had the ships reversed (sailing to the left side), and if you look at the amphib in the front the numbers are wrong.  But this was in the images . . .
Colt Ward
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #922 on: 03 July 2019, 11:40:31 »
The picture i think is reversed.   

As for the Iowa Squeeze play through the Panama Canal.   Here top view of Missiouri with the Large Cruiser USS Alaska aka only modern American Battlecruiser Class built.

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Ghost0402

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #923 on: 03 July 2019, 14:37:01 »
I did not know battleships were this fat.



The South Dakota's were stubby.  So they seem fatter than they are.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #924 on: 04 July 2019, 05:19:58 »
Not much details have come out, but since no one spoke of it. There was fire on Monday aboard a secretive Russian Nuclear-Submarine, Losharik (AS-12)  as reported on USNI's news section.  14 sailors lost their lives when fire happened, they managed to put the fires and the ship was towed back to the Northern Fleet navalbase. Terrible thing they died, but they saved their fellow shipmates, my heart goes out to their families.



The ship was among the secret/hushup leftovers from the Cold War Era, but they're still in use.  The Losharik was meant for Special Ops, though what kind research it was doing we may not know.  It was said it was originally intended to tap into communication cables that lay below on the ocean bottom, which would make sense. More recently, the ship was reported doing research in the Arctic Ocean. What is interesting to me, this is a 2,000 ton nuclear submarine that uses a modified Delta-III Stretched SSBN to act as the mothership to it and apparently other small SSNs.  I had heard of the Delta III Stretch submarine, but like anyone with publicly available information, not clarify why it was stretched.




Apparently the picture is from Top Gear  :D

https://www.businessinsider.com/top-gear-russia-published-image-of-classified-submarine-2015-1?r=US&IR=T


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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #925 on: 05 July 2019, 03:08:20 »
Its not just subs, its a rule among all naval vessels afaik-  I saw a yellowed piece of paper pinned up on the BB-35 Texas that admonished crew members that if the ship was hit, a crewman's best chance to save his buddies was to save the ship.

For the Panama Canal, they are under tow afaik (some of the old black & white photos posted earlier on what refit it was with US BBs showed tows) since it reduces their wakes somewhat.  Ship wakes cause erosion on the Lake and IIRC they have had to take steps over the decades to combat that to keep things clear.

It's a truism of damage control, save the ship, save your mates. The ocean is an unforgiving place and sailors need to look after each other. One of the crewmen on HMS Nottingham shored himself into a compartment saving her from Wolfe rock, had to have his meals passed down to him, that's serious balls right there. He came out alright, but had to have meals passed down to him until they got into port.

Ships can travel under their own power without causing a wake, it's really not that hard to do, you just need to go slow. The big ships going through the canal would be towed because it evens out their movement, provided the tug can keep moving in a relatively straight line. If you want to keep your canal clear, you need to dredge it, just like harbours and passages, the simple movement of water will deposit silt that you need to dig out or it will build up, whether a ship is underway or not is largely irrelevant to the process.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #926 on: 05 July 2019, 22:10:16 »

The ship was among the secret/hushup leftovers from the Cold War Era, but they're still in use.  The Losharik was meant for Special Ops, though what kind research it was doing we may not know.  It was said it was originally intended to tap into communication cables that lay below on the ocean bottom, which would make sense. More recently, the ship was reported doing research in the Arctic Ocean. What is interesting to me, this is a 2,000 ton nuclear submarine that uses a modified Delta-III Stretched SSBN to act as the mothership to it and apparently other small SSNs.  I had heard of the Delta III Stretch submarine, but like anyone with publicly available information, not clarify why it was stretched.

Are these the ones with treads to putter around the seafloor, as the swedes reported around those cables and sensors as late as the 80s?
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #927 on: 06 July 2019, 02:14:01 »
Most likely there never were any subs with threads. In fact the best evidence was traced back to an experimental Swedish minisub (often crept along soft bottoms, wide prop left traces like tracks).

There almost certainly were Russian minisubs, but all the ones known are conventional designs of <100 tons.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2019, 02:49:39 by Sabelkatten »

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #928 on: 06 July 2019, 02:21:20 »
Are these the ones with treads to putter around the seafloor, as the swedes reported around those cables and sensors as late as the 80s?
No, it's newer, doesn't have treads. Does have skids though.

Check out the writeup from the inestimable H I Sutton: http://www.hisutton.com/Spy%20Sub%20-%20Project%2010831%20Losharik.html

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #929 on: 06 July 2019, 08:31:40 »




http://www.hisutton.com/WP-18%20Tactical%20Strike%20Craft.html

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