Author Topic: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)  (Read 2329 times)

Cannonshop

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Speculation Question for the New Year:

"Would the Clans even have a fanbase without the Clantech advantage?"

Here's your 'what if': what if in 3049, the Clans didn't have a massive weight/damage/range advantage over the Star League's tech, what if they only managed to have SLDF tech equivalent gear when they were introduced?  would they still have the following they do today? would you still like them if they didn't have more powerful/lighter/cooler running weapons and equipment?

can you explain why?

This is kinda fishing for what societal elements of the Clans you actually like, and whether you would like those elements as much if they didn't spend the last 30-something years being massively more powerful than the Inner Sphere's tech.

Which Clans would you still love, and why?
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Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #1 on: 31 December 2023, 08:09:38 »
Would you still like them if they didn't have more powerful/lighter/cooler running weapons and equipment?

can you explain why?

This is kinda fishing for what societal elements of the Clans you actually like, and whether you would like those elements as much if they didn't spend the last 30-something years being massively more powerful than the Inner Sphere's tech.

Which Clans would you still love, and why?

Easily. Because Andrew Steiner refused Nicolai Malthus' batchall. Martial cultures with things for honor have always held my attention, even at the young age the cartoon got me. That their tech base is better was not a factor. I am loving the unsubtle premise that all Clan fans are cheese and here for lighter stuff that hits harder from further, though.

I enjoy Clan society as a whole, with particular shout outs to the Smoke Jaguars, the Jade Falcons, the Star Adders, and the Blood Spirits for not being boring and being Crusader Clans that did things in fiction to read about and provide entertainment. Though, in the era of the ilClan, there really isn't a dull Clan to read about anymore, even the Bears are interesting with their recent mini-civil war.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2023, 08:13:03 by Crimson Dynamo »
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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #2 on: 31 December 2023, 13:36:01 »
Hmm.  Yes.  Even 'Heels' in wrestling have fans.   :tongue:
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rebs

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #3 on: 31 December 2023, 13:46:53 »
They are the rightful heirs to the SLDF and they have returned to claim what is theirs.  And knock the heads of squabbling Successor States leaders together in the process. 
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Church14

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #4 on: 31 December 2023, 14:29:47 »
My interest in clans is the story and the alien cultures. The quality of clanSpec tech actually pushed me away from them for a long time. Had they come back with SLDF era tech I would’ve like them a lot more early on.


And no, people who abandoned the hegemony and the remains of the Star league to run away from their responsibilities are not the rightful heirs. The rightful heirs were ComStar, the only group that didn’t shirk from their assigned role and didn’t engage in the succession wars. Openly, anyway

rebs

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #5 on: 31 December 2023, 14:42:58 »
The Clans are the heirs to the SLDF, they descend from them directly. Staying and dying would have been pointless. 

Comstar's plots, such as to murder scientists and set humanity back by accelerating the loss of vital technologies that in many cases kept former SL worlds and the people who lived there alive simply to force them into obedience, is anathema to what the Star League stood for.  For example. 

If the Clans have no business claiming the banner of the Star League, then neither does Comstar. 
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #6 on: 31 December 2023, 14:49:03 »
The Star League wasn't shy about breaking stuff and killing people that were 'problematic' if necessary (Reunification War, Hegemony Wars) for "Unity". It wasn't a nice, noble organization it was a very authoritarian Empire that had good PR and kept the other nobles in line at the point of Battleship guns and the SLDF.

Otherwise it wouldn't have spawned the Clans and COMSTAR.

rebs

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #7 on: 31 December 2023, 14:59:57 »
The Star League wasn't shy about breaking stuff and killing people that were 'problematic' if necessary (Reunification War, Hegemony Wars) for "Unity". It wasn't a nice, noble organization it was a very authoritarian Empire that had good PE and kept the other nobles in line at the point of Battleship guns and the SLDF.

Otherwise it wouldn't have spawned the Clans and COMSTAR.

I can agree with that to a point.  The Clans are clearly as dysfunctional a group of humans as have ever existed in RL or in fiction.  And Comstar are devious manipulators who got there's in the end.  I liked how Hanse Davion dealt with them from the beginning. 

But the Periphery States were not members or former member worlds of the Star League.  Comstar destroyed the lives of how many billions or trillions of citizens of former Star League worlds right in the IS?  One could argue the same about the SLDF departing on the Exodus with Aleksandr Kerensky.

Anyway, if one is "right" (C* or Clans), then so is the other.  Or both are "wrong".  But not one over the other.

And back to the OP - the technology was fun to play with but it also causes issues with the game.  If people want to forgo it on the table, I'm fine with not using Clans.  They are just a terribly interesting fictional culture.  An example of something I hope is not in the future of humanity.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2023, 15:06:52 by rebs »
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shinr

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #8 on: 31 December 2023, 15:17:40 »
With 'MechWarrior 2: 31st Century Combat' being my first introduction to BattleTech, there was no IS tech to even compare to with until Mercenaries (and if there was, you really had to go out of your way to use them), so I was pulled in by the interestingly weird space techno-Spartan/Nomad/Cossack mix that was the Clan society.

Church14

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #9 on: 31 December 2023, 15:20:21 »
The Clans are the heirs to the SLDF, they descend from them directly. Staying and dying would have been pointless. 
Look at the numbers and the staggering concentration of forces the SLDF still had. In raw numbers they still equaled any two houses. They also had better tech and more experience. Had the exodus not happened, hegemony probably survived.


I will accept arguments that ComStar shouldn’t be an heir to the Star League, but those who abandoned the Hegmony have no claim.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #10 on: 31 December 2023, 16:36:19 »
Here's your 'what if': what if in 3049, the Clans didn't have a massive weight/damage/range advantage over the Star League's tech, what if they only managed to have SLDF tech equivalent gear when they were introduced?  would they still have the following they do today? would you still like them if they didn't have more powerful/lighter/cooler running weapons and equipment?

can you explain why?

Sure.  Because Clan governance and society is fundamentally different, more interesting, and more believable (to the extent anything in BT is believable) than the Houses.

The Houses, IMO, are unimaginative riffs on the same unbelievable premise — that medieval societies will make a comeback in the 31st century right down to the knights and samurai.  I have no problem with the reappearance of a “modern” feudal system.  Dune did that very well, for example.  But Carolingian France and Shogunate Japan among the stars?  Please.  At least Lucas bothered to come up with a different name for his fighting monks.

The Houses are also all fundamentally autocratic, hereditary monarchies.  Some have trappings of democracy, but if they ever had them, their actual democratic organs failed long ago.  It’s hard to get excited about whether a character or unit dies fighting for the medieval French-styled monarch or the medieval Japanese-styled monarch.  Big yawn, IMO.

The introduction of the Clans fundamentally improved the stale House background that BT was built on.  Like Dune or other good sci-fi societies, the Clans were a de novo invention (of Boy F. Peterson), not just a pale copy of some medieval country.  This made the Clans both more believable and more interesting than the Houses.  They were something I had not seen before and there was a logic to why they were the way they were.

And they were democratic meritocracies.  Unlike the Houses, where most PCs and NPCs of any import were given their station and status by their daddies, you had to fight and vote your way higher within Clan society.  Yeah, there’s lots about the Clan trial system that is stupid or brutal to our 21st-century eyes, but from a story-telling perspective, a Trial of Position or a Trial of Bloodright or a Grand Melee sure as heck beats “I was a born to a minor noble and after graduating academy, I used my wealth to start a mech company.”

To be clear, I’m making no value — good or evil — judgements about the Houses versus the Clans.  Both produce wise and wily characters like Hanse and Ulric, as well as terribly careless and downright insane characters like Maximillian and Malvina.  There’s black in every major faction in this universe.

But in terms of in-character and out-of-character motivation, what’s more motivating?  Fighting for stale copies of medieval monarchies?  Or fighting for an original society with a governance model that your character  can rise within?  The latter, for me, at least.

FWIW… YMMV.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2023, 23:34:47 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Broken_Metal_Dreaming

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #11 on: 31 December 2023, 17:04:18 »
I suppose what I like about certain clans or characters within the clans, actually tends to be the ways in which the rebel against the system crazy Nicky created.

The Wolverines outright saying "this is stupid, I'm going to take my ball and go home". This has obvious appeal to me, and I am one that would like to see hints that they are still around doing something in the rimward? periphery even if exactly what never is revealed. (hate the joined comstar/became word of blake rumor, though that appears to be false based on the other rumors from that source.) Probably going to do at least a lance of these guys.

More generally I can identify with traumatized children being bullied into a state of rage and violence (sibkos), and dealing with the long term ramifications of this (big fan of the Aiden Pryde novels but not the falcons as a whole because I can identify with his story of trying to find himself, and the conflicts between the way he was raised/abused and having to learn to deal with the technician class and other freebirths, and then finding a way to fit them and his new ideas in with the reality of the clans.) For clarity I was beaten up daily from 2nd to 4th grade in elementary school and the school did little to nothing about it or worse, punished me for being shoved and punched, eventually I started punching back and have to deal with a lot of leftover rage and trauma. Again a Lance at most With Pryde and Horse Probably.

Clan Ghost Bear's small rebellion in treating the lower castes better and having family units, and having a few deep dark secrets to keep makes me smile, though I don't have any plans for a larger force, especially after the recent sourcebooks had them doing a purge or something? I've not read the sourcebook myself. Gotta do something with those Kodiaks?


Now the factions I am planning a larger force for, or do have partially built:

Snow Raven has this family thing going on, though more bloodname ties- and it focuses on teamwork and cooperation more than is typical for the clans, they even have a more defined chain of command and requirements that must be met before one can challenge for promotion. It seems like they at least have some understanding that experience and age can have some benefit despite slowing reflexes etc. Also the separate naval bloodnames and focus on airpower and Battle armor combined arms units. They've also got this underdog feel where they are always having to be a bit Machiavellian just to survive, and have been lucky to survive more than once, having to play factions off against each other most recently the fedsuns and DC.

Sea fox for being the opportunistic little hustlers that they are...you want to create a society of duelling warrior knights? sure we can sell you stuff for that. Oh your Mercenary Review Board is broken? Well we have Sea Fox Mercenary Review Board right now for only 100 C-bills more per month. And we'll even actually enforce penalties for conflict violations and stuff.

Clan Protectorate: Mystics semi integrating into the Inner sphere and working with the sea foxes to make it happen. Lots of story here, especially with the politics of the Free Worlds league being what it is, and the infighting that is constant there. conflicts between clan culture and established inner sphere culture are sure to change them greatly and I'm excited to see where it goes, especially as they are FWL vassals while still tentatively supporting Clan Howls at the Moon.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2023, 17:11:47 by Broken_Metal_Dreaming »

idea weenie

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #12 on: 31 December 2023, 17:51:40 »
A similar question might be, what would the Clans do if they ran into someone that out-teched the Clans like the Clans out-teched the Inner Sphere?  Would they accept that the opponents were better warriors, or would they complain that it was the superior machine that gave the victory?

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #13 on: 01 January 2024, 00:44:30 »
Speculation Question for the New Year:

"Would the Clans even have a fanbase without the Clantech advantage?"....

Better question is would Battletech even have a fanbase at all without Clans?

The answer is straight up Nope! Whole thing would have fizzled out before turn of the century

Clans are super interesting factions with endless potential and have carried this franchise throughout majority of it's existence

Removing the tech advantage would turn them into full on underdogs thus making them even more awesome

And their status as heirs to the Star League is massive bonus, Star League is always amazing

Plus unlike Successor States they are original creations and not just inserts for real life countries (in SPACE!!!)








JAMES_PRYDE

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #14 on: 01 January 2024, 06:20:00 »
I was born into Jade Falcon, the Refusal War (aka Mechwarrior 2 was my first game, and entry into Battletech) at sibko age of around 11 (and there was too much reading in the archives lol), when Mechcommander came round I was so confused, as it was an Inner Sphere based game, and I kept thinking, where are all the proper mechs lol ? It was then I learnt about the IS, then I learned about the IS, the bare basics

But I have always liked the Clans for the society fiction (alien culture RP, while still being a player in this day and age). And now fast forward, Clan-Sphere integration and "non-traditional/evolved Clan society)" Clans, again, for something new (not just copy and paste nations of now into space)

Was never really about the tech. Mechwarrior 2 and then mostly Clan (and how they developed/survived) held my interest in the Battletech universe to current. But consequently having better (and cooler looking) stuff did not hurt.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2024, 06:43:18 by JAMES_PRYDE »

Alan Grant

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #15 on: 01 January 2024, 06:59:26 »
I was always more intrigued by Clan society than its technology. How it's different at every level from Spheroids and real life.

I've also always found the Bloodname Houses interesting, and the idea that a Clan warrior had to earn a Bloodname. I've also found the role of the Bloodname House leaders truly fascinating (to me, one of the most interesting "jobs" in all of Battletech), Coming up with DNA pairings for the next generation. Mentoring the next generation. Leading the Bloodname House, even members of it from different Clans. Navigating politics. To me Bloodname House leaders are incredibly fascinating, and their role is remarkable and unique in Battletech in many ways.

The idea that a Bloodname House can represent an extended family and/or political circle is also very intriguing.

Off and on over the decades, I've gotten weirdly invested in the various Bloodname Houses. I've enjoyed taking some of the more obscure ones and fleshing them out in a non-canon fashion. I've also enjoyed researching and piecing together what we do know about specific Houses.

Now we have lists the 800ish original Bloodname Houses. But for a very long time we didn't have that. When I look at my Battletech notes and files I see a document I made years ago fleshing out the Noruff Bloodname House (including colors, crest, some traditions and famous members of past generations), I also fleshed out the original Clan warrior who is the originator of that name (gave that person a bio). This and other related projects were things I've frequently sunk my teeth into over the years.

There were other challenges as well. I started my own research lists of Bloodnames. I was trying to solve riddles like what certain Bloodname Houses were probably known for (common characteristics/attributes of its members, which phenotypes it seems to focus on). As well as riddles like which of the Mongoose Bloodnames survived and were still active.

This kind of research is a lot easier now. We have more data, more books. A lot of this stuff has been plugged into Sarna, including a sub-site for every single Bloodname House. You can do a search on sarna for Nagasawa (Bloodname) and see every named member of it. Back in the day I'd pick a Bloodname like Hakimi and spend countless hours trying to find every named Hakimi in existence, pull all that data in together to complete a picture of the Bloodname House. I'd get obsessed with a specific Bloodname and start digging through every book by hand trying to find any information on a canon Bloodname House or its members. Along with that, trying to identify any meaningful traits.

So for me the Clans intersected with a lot of personal interest areas.
-An interest in researching history
-An interest in DNA/genetics
-An interest in studying different cultures
-An interest in warrior cultures (real or fictional)
-An interest in space navy stuff (for a very long time the Clans had the best fleshed out navies via Field Manuals Crusader Clan and Warden Clan, and even if naval combat was rare, the Clan Homeworlds were the best place to have naval warfare be even remotely commonplace. With every active warship named and identified and broken up into the various Clan fleets. I studied those warship fleets a LOT. It was quite possible to put on your Star Commodore or Star Admiral hat and evaluate the Clan fleets in a strategic and tactical fashion. That was a fun naval sandbox for warship fans.)

All that being said, I've absolutely met Clan fans who are in it for the tech advantages. Where "Can I be a Clanner?" is little more than a power play to exploit certain advantages, like their technology. People who are in it because of a slew of favorite Clan 'mechs. That's definitely a thing, those people do exist, I've met them. But that's ok. Any fandom has its scale of different fans who are in it for different reasons.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2024, 08:39:51 by Alan Grant »

JAMES_PRYDE

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #16 on: 01 January 2024, 07:51:59 »
Well done Alan, I second your post

You always have a great way of explaining these type of things

Alan Grant

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #17 on: 01 January 2024, 08:09:48 »
Well done Alan, I second your post

You always have a great way of explaining these type of things

Thank you!

CJC070

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #18 on: 01 January 2024, 11:57:18 »

Clans are super interesting factions with endless potential and have carried this franchise throughout majority of it's existence


In the beginning that was not always true there were some veteran players especially in the beginning who liked to play Clan vs beginning and intermediate players who played IS who were then trounced because the Clans had every advantage.  It also didn’t help that some of those players were toxic.    I have even met some of these players who played on the IS side and some of them were very “once burned, twice shy” people.  I will admit the Clans kept things going but they should not get sole credit for keeping Battletech alive.  Remember you have to take the good with the bad or you may destroy the things you love the most.

rebs

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #19 on: 01 January 2024, 14:31:02 »
All that being said, I've absolutely met Clan fans who are in it for the tech advantages. Where "Can I be a Clanner?" is little more than a power play to exploit certain advantages, like their technology. People who are in it because of a slew of favorite Clan 'mechs. That's definitely a thing, those people do exist, I've met them. But that's ok. Any fandom has its scale of different fans who are in it for different reasons.

In the beginning that was not always true there were some veteran players especially in the beginning who liked to play Clan vs beginning and intermediate players who played IS who were then trounced because the Clans had every advantage.  It also didn’t help that some of those players were toxic.    I have even met some of these players who played on the IS side and some of them were very “once burned, twice shy” people.  I will admit the Clans kept things going but they should not get sole credit for keeping Battletech alive.  Remember you have to take the good with the bad or you may destroy the things you love the most.

If anyone wants to throw down on the table, I'm open to either No Clan Tech, or Both Sides Clan Tech.  Or hashing out a good ratio, whether we use BV or determine it in other ways.

I was recently telling some people about an old game back in the early 90's.  We all recognized the Clan advantage early on in our group.  So four of us met up.  It was pre-BV.  We had a rough tonnage ratio for Clan vs IS, and further, we gave numerical advantage to the IS. 

It was this -

Me and one friend ran the Clans, we each commanded a Star of Mechs worth about 350 tons each.  Some heavy stuff.

Our opponents ran a full IS Company of about 850 or 900 tons plus 6 custom designed tanks that weighed 80 tons each IIRC.  Tanks were all the same loadout. 

We thought this was fair, and some even thought the IS had the advantage because of Helm Memory Core upgraded equipment.

Then we played it out and the IS never had a chance.  Clan forces took a few loses, but it really was kind of over before it began.

So I get it and Clan tech is entirely optional.  I don't want to play a turkey shoot, but I also wouldn't want to be the turkey.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2024, 14:53:20 by rebs »
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #20 on: 01 January 2024, 14:42:15 »
In the beginning that was not always true there were some veteran players especially in the beginning who liked to play Clan vs beginning and intermediate players who played IS who were then trounced because the Clans had every advantage.  It also didn’t help that some of those players were toxic.    I have even met some of these players who played on the IS side and some of them were very “once burned, twice shy” people.  I will admit the Clans kept things going but they should not get sole credit for keeping Battletech alive.  Remember you have to take the good with the bad or you may destroy the things you love the most.

No arguments here

However we should also keep in mind that a lot of this stuff was taking place decades ago in the previous century

At some point you just need to draw the line under everything and focus on today and what's ahead



Another EXTREMELY SUBJECTIVE thing that I noticed is that Clan fans today have better sense of humor

When we get rolling with jokes we really roll

But like I said, it's just what I noticed






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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #21 on: 01 January 2024, 14:52:34 »
Hmm. Well, I've always ascribed to the idea if you're fighting a fair fight you're doing it wrong, so most of my early Clan games were serious losses.  I eventually gave up, but it helped me develop a larger toolbox of strategies and tactics that helped even the odds.

For example, I fought an AS game recently where i lured my opponent to place an Annihilator on the board as his second mech.  I always put down my fastest, most maneuverable units first, and I forced him to cover a mapsheet and a half in that Annihilator before firing his first shot (that missed).  By that point I was was already retreating from the board, and it looks like I need some new tricks since AS doesn't play like the real game - maneuver and terrain is less of an asset.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #22 on: 01 January 2024, 20:57:32 »
still reading.  I'm holding back on jumping in to reply to anyone specifically, as so many of these responses are good.  (you know who you are.)
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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #23 on: 01 January 2024, 21:23:35 »
There would still be people attracted to, for lack of a better term, the whole more escapist Klingon-esque vibe. All the grrrr grrrr honor angry face glorious battle grrr grrr stuff.
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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #24 on: 02 January 2024, 08:17:55 »
You do have a valid point Middcore.

I'm going to throw something into the mix. This may feel weird and it's oddly personal.

I've always been into military stuff and military sci fi settings. Since I was a kid.

For a very long time I could watch a bloody war movie. No big deal. I was enthralled by the action, the tactics and technologies involved. I don't think I romanticized the deaths. I felt something like impact but not sadness. I'm not sure I was a very empathetic young man. Like that part of my brain hadn't developed yet.

As I've gotten older, I find death hits me differently. It probably doesn't help that I've been to a lot more funerals now. I find the realities of military operations and military life a lot more... upsetting?

Today if I read a book about warfare, or watch a war movie or documentary (something more nuanced and realistic, not the absurd action flicks), and I'm watching people die, to varying degrees depending on the movie. I'm hit by that loss. I empathize with the spouse and family who lost a loved one.

They make me sad. For the next hour, maybe the rest of the day, I feel sad. The world feels like a grayer, less colorful, less happy place.

At first I was into The Walking Dead. But the repeated "you love character X? Oh here they died.." ripped me to shreds emotionally and I had to stop watching it.

Yes Battletech is fiction. In general it doesn't hit me the same way some portrayal of a real life war does or would. But there can still be some tough moments here and there. A particularly brutal moment stops me in my tracks. And I can't get into the pure mercenary thing at all. If I'm going to portray mercenaries in fan fiction for example, there has to be another motivation at play. Like some of those pseudo-mercenary units that actually, technically, do have an allegiance to somebody and some other reason for existance. The Canopian Highlanders, the Kell Hounds etc.

The Clans...they hit different on an emotional level. Clan Warriors don't have families. Fighting, proving yourself in battle and death in battle is ultimately the point. Yes, their loss may be felt by trothkin and sibmates and the like. But the outcome, a death in battle, is all but predetermined. It's just a question of how and when. It's an entirely different mentality and culture. It's like being an Olympics athlete, merged with being a Viking or Klingon.

I can think about this kind of warfare and not get as stuck on the emotional baggage as I do with some other stuff sometimes. Even Combine Samurai can make me feel this way, I mean they tend to have spouses and kids. Minobu Tetsuhara's seppuku scene was particularly sad. Only the Capellan Warrior Houses come close to replicating this in a non-Clan format within this universe.

I'm not sure if escapism is the right word. I almost think "avoidance" as in avoidance of heart break. The Klingon comparison is valid too. That's actually my Star Trek equivalent to this concept.

Maybe this is purely a "me" thing. But I thought I'd throw it out there in case anybody else finds this useful or finds it is relevant to them as well.

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #25 on: 02 January 2024, 09:01:19 »
I absolutely resonate with that perspective, Alan. I'm a bit of a bleeding heart myself and I gravitate towards noble ideologies like those of the Marik Protectors and the resurrected Killer Bees and their Falcon Lancer brethren.

The clans are complicating in that way and I feel torn between the notion of limiting warfare and wastefulness while paradoxically worshipping it as a near artform and the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong.
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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #26 on: 02 January 2024, 09:26:46 »
Yeah I think like mentioned above the Clans have a lot of emotional appeal, even if their tech is the same as the IS. They have featured in some of the best fiction in the setting and the MechWarrior video games brought many players to the franchise while featuring them heavily.

You can feel proud of Aidyn Pryde for achieving his bloodname and dying to defend the Falcons on Tukayyid at his height

Chastise Marthe for her betrayal of him during their ToP but find her interactions with her 'niece' Diana almost heartwarming even if its very Machiavellian.

The struggles of Joanna and the other older Warriors are very humanizing for the Touman in general.

Ulrich's attempts to temper the Clans and humiliate Leo Showers during his invasion are very dramatic.

The Society seems like a completely obvious extension of their twisted philosophy and it should have been featured in more stories because evil scientists fighting honorable warriors with cyborgs and biological weapons is a great conflict.

You can also feel sympathy for the sibkin that are put through hellish training with no intention of surviving the next battle if that is what it takes.
Or their civilians which live under this Orwellian nightmare state led by dysfunctional child soldiers.

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #27 on: 02 January 2024, 14:42:38 »
Today if I read a book about warfare, or watch a war movie or documentary (something more nuanced and realistic, not the absurd action flicks), and I'm watching people die, to varying degrees depending on the movie. I'm hit by that loss. I empathize with the spouse and family who lost a loved one.

They make me sad. For the next hour, maybe the rest of the day, I feel sad. The world feels like a grayer, less colorful, less happy place.

At first I was into The Walking Dead. But the repeated "you love character X? Oh here they died.." ripped me to shreds emotionally and I had to stop watching it.

Yes Battletech is fiction. In general it doesn't hit me the same way some portrayal of a real life war does or would. But there can still be some tough moments here and there. A particularly brutal moment stops me in my tracks. And I can't get into the pure mercenary thing at all. If I'm going to portray mercenaries in fan fiction for example, there has to be another motivation at play. Like some of those pseudo-mercenary units that actually, technically, do have an allegiance to somebody and some other reason for existance. The Canopian Highlanders, the Kell Hounds etc.

The Clans...they hit different on an emotional level. Clan Warriors don't have families. Fighting, proving yourself in battle and death in battle is ultimately the point. Yes, their loss may be felt by trothkin and sibmates and the like. But the outcome, a death in battle, is all but predetermined. It's just a question of how and when. It's an entirely different mentality and culture. It's like being an Olympics athlete, merged with being a Viking or Klingon.

I can think about this kind of warfare and not get as stuck on the emotional baggage as I do with some other stuff sometimes. Even Combine Samurai can make me feel this way, I mean they tend to have spouses and kids. Minobu Tetsuhara's seppuku scene was particularly sad. Only the Capellan Warrior Houses come close to replicating this in a non-Clan format within this universe.

I'm not sure if escapism is the right word. I almost think "avoidance" as in avoidance of heart break. The Klingon comparison is valid too. That's actually my Star Trek equivalent to this concept.

Maybe this is purely a "me" thing. But I thought I'd throw it out there in case anybody else finds this useful or finds it is relevant to them as well.

The moment Aidan found out Diana was his daughter, and he decided without question to stand and defend while she was extracted from her downed 'mech and taken aboard the dropship, that moment especially got me.  That one can constrict my throat easily.  Smoke in eyes, no?

Or when Fadre Singh boasted of betraying the Dragoon's "precious bolt hole" as he called it.  And Natasha Kerensky walked up and ended him right there, saying "Those who break with the Unity will go down into darkness".  At the time, it just seemed like a dramatic thing to say, we didn't yet know as readers that she was quoting her ancestor.  That was a moment that still gives me chills.

Or yes, when Minobu Tetsuhara takes his life.  And again when Jamie Wolf brings Minobu's swords to Hanse's wedding and throws them down at Takashi's feet, and chastises him about how empty his honor really is. 

There are some great moments in BT.  And In my writing, I do everything I can to capture that emotion. 

There are a lot of other stories.  Some good, some great, and some that are just standard fare.  But not many have the emotional connection.  I strive to bring that emotional connection to my work.

It's not unusual that the Clans can also have that strong connection.  Example in RL: good agents often have very little true family or very few true friends.  Not having emotional bonds can be an asset.  But in literature it can also be the perfect opportunity to make the rare bond that happens have the deepest of meanings because it's like a flower blooming on a cactus in the desert after a rain.  True to life diamonds in the rough.  The Clans are fertile ground for this. 
« Last Edit: 02 January 2024, 16:55:50 by rebs »
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Maingunnery

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #28 on: 02 January 2024, 15:05:10 »
Speculation Question for the New Year:

"Would the Clans even have a fanbase without the Clantech advantage?"
I would say yes.
I am assuming here that they do have things such as an IS ERML.

I got into Battletech because of the cartoon and the MW2 PC games, with these the stats are secondary, the primary draw here are the visuals (and story) and the Clan Omnis have great esthetics (the story already expanded upon by other here). Also with near equal tech it would mean that there would be far less frustration between IS and Clan players, so BT would likely have been in a better place.

What would need to change to the canon story? I think the Clans invading with more Galaxies, along with slower/reduced tech proliferation on the IS side.
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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #29 on: 02 January 2024, 16:19:45 »
It was just silly to insinuate that "munchkin allure" is why the Clans have fans. 
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Alan Grant

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #30 on: 02 January 2024, 16:57:19 »
It was just silly to insinuate that "munchkin allure" is why the Clans have fans.

Yeah, for some reason I have this intense urge to kill Cannonshop for suggesting it. I have no idea why...

Maybe not kill... maybe just... like put a tiny blemish on his favorite coffee mug. And every time he cleans and puts it away, add the blemish back on. Or keep adjusting the rear-view mirror in his car so every time he gets in it, it's crooked..... 

rebs

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #31 on: 02 January 2024, 17:36:08 »
Subtle. 

But to be direct, he suggested "kill" in the OP so its understandable.  I hope by this point he understands that we get it too about posts like this.
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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #32 on: 02 January 2024, 21:53:32 »
Yeah, well - I had two regular opponents during the splash from 3050.  Neither one would willingly take SL-era units from 2750 or IS refits.  I learned a lot of the tactics I did because if tech was open, there would be Clan mechs, and I got to HATING CLAN MECHS with a burning passion.  Unfortunately, we were balancing with tonnage in those days and because I couldn't win I eventually demanded a 20% buff.

The most vexing thing was, one of them always attacked in a deathball.  No terrain, no maneuver, no firing at range - 'charge' was his only answer, and he did-it-every-time.  Run up and fire within 4-5 hexes.

So, I set fires, brought Infernos, did physical attacks, tried artillery, hidden bunkers, Jumping on Desert Canyon, everything I could think of.  I lost EVERY TIME. 

I still hate Clan tech, my project aside.  I'll only play it if I have to, and only because I want to win at any cost.  I figure, they did it first. :director:
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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #33 on: 03 January 2024, 06:57:40 »
I'm certainly not disputing that the introduction of Clan tech didn't cause balance issues or problems in the game. If the introduction of the Clans happened today, you'd hear modern parlance words like "Overpowered" and "game breaking" thrown around a lot. You'd get a ton of negative feedback that would probably send the game's developers scrambling to revise things and release a new product that tried to restore some degree of balance to tabletop play at least.

That's legit. And as you are pointing out, some players took advantage.

I blame some players as much as the game itself. I have a friend from about two decades ago who did similar things. We played a lot of different kinds of games together. He was not afraid to make some rather game-breaking demands or to take advantage of some drastically overpowered things in the game. We'd do it his way and he'd win most of the time. For example, with first person shooter video games in a private 1-v-1 format, he'd just shoot a missile launcher of some kind at your feet while you tried to fight him with a rifle or pistol or even a knife. He'd laugh at you dying and regard himself as an excellent player of that game. He'd repeat this pattern many times in a row.

Over the holidays, almost 2 decades later, that era came up in a group conversation, and I made a small "noob tuber" joke in his general direction, I could see the sheepish embarrassed look on his face. With age and maturity he knows what he did and he's quietly ashamed of it. We were both just dumb teenagers. He was dumb for doing it and not recognizing the imbalance in it, I was dumb for letting him get away with it too often without complaint.
« Last Edit: 03 January 2024, 09:11:07 by Alan Grant »

Nerroth

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #34 on: 03 January 2024, 11:43:13 »
Even in the "current" era of BattleTech, many of the MechWarriors in Scorpion Empire's Seeker Galaxy use vintage Star League BattleMechs rather than Clan OmniMechs - in keeping with the philosophy after which this Galaxy is named.

Although, this is the kind of thing which might work better at a smaller scale of play, such as in either of the tabletop RPGs. At a larger level, how well a Seeker Galaxy force fares in comparison to the other "front-line" Galaxies in the touman is another story.

To put it another way: during the Hanseatic Crusade, the most critical contribution by the Seekers - aside from those whose deaths served as the trigger for the invasion itself - was the detachment which secured a key Star League-era facility on Braunschweig. The bulk of the Galaxy had a decidedly mixed track record, to include being defeated and driven off Lübeck by RDF 1 and CDF 1.

-----

Of course, the existence of the Seeker movement is itself an example of how the different Clans each provide one (or more) points of distinctiveness from the others.

Although the number of "active' Clans was dramatically whittled down by the Wars of Reaving, even the post-Reaving Clans (those we know about, at least) have been able to evolve in new directions, or in some cases to carry the legacies of dead Clans within their own ranks.

Indeed, in the case of the Scorpions, they have been able to acquire a host of bespoke legacies: the Empire as of 3151 has Goliath Scorpion, Ice Hellion, Eridani Light Horse, Umayyad, Castilian, and Hansa elements to draw upon. Plus all that swag from Solaris VII and from the Chaine Cluster to cart back home!

And while we wait to see what (if anything) has been going on in the Clan Homeworlds as of late, each of the Clans in the Inner Sphere and near Periphery has gone through its own changes - welcome or otherwise - in the century and more since the onset of Operation REVIVAL.

-----

That said, given the various issues that BattleTech had in the past with the "Unseen", I'd argue that, even beyond the on-table (or in-video-game) impact of the TRO:3050 Omnimechs, their very existence in design terms enabled BT to lean heavily on a "bespoke" set of illustrations and miniature designs, that were not beholden to someone else's IP.

Without the Timber Wolf in particular to help "sell" it, would the Clan Invasion Era have had quite the same lasting impact?

Plus, it's no coincidence that the Savage Wolf, the latest incarnation of the Timber Wolf design legacy, features prominently on the front (and back) cover(s) of the IlClan sourcebook.

Yes, it's been to BT's benefit to have finally left the "Unseen" issue behind. But even with a new range of "Reseen" designs now available in print, PDF, and miniature form, the setting would be much the poorer without those designs which have been drawn from the outset to function in this universe.

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #35 on: 03 January 2024, 12:20:17 »
Mmm... this question comes across as really, really bad faith.

But to engage with your question in good faith, despite said question being in unquestionably bad faith, people have brought up a lot of things which I broadly agree upon. The clans are one thing that's unquestionably BattleTech, their particular flavour of technobarbarism aren't something I've really seen elsewhere. Sure there's "proud warrior race guys" in many if not most sci-fi properties, but the eugenics program, bloodnames and all that seem pretty unique and specific. I like looking at fictional settings and imagined societies and seeing what people come up with, and the clans are by far the most creative imagined society in BattleTech, which unfortunately is not really that difficult considering the other ones, but I think they'd stand out fairly well even in more outlandish settings.

I think also, there's an aspect which I don't seem to have observed in other posts which I think bears consideration: the clans just have better branding.

I mean, look at them: Clan Wolf! Jade Falcon! Ghost Bear! Smoke Jaguar! These might sound unspeakably over the top to you, but they sound like the names of a sports team or mascot, which isn't too far from what they really are. Their logos are comparatively straightforward and simple compared to other factions, mostly 'animal on semi-abstract background', compared to, say, the excessively busy Federated Suns logo that for many, many years I never even realised included a sword because it's just got so many lines and points and stuff. I can see people wearing bright green Jade Falcon sports jackets with the logo and all and seeming pretty cool compared to, say, green Capellan Confederation jackets with the triangle even though they both have the cringey katana. The iconography, naming and such are just plain cooler than the other factions.

Compare this to the great houses: Federated Suns, Capellan Confederation, Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth, Draconis Combine. If you knew nothing about the franchise, would Federated Suns, Capellan Commonwealth and Lyran Confederation sound meaningfully distinct to you? They all sound similarly mealy-mouthed 'good republic' to me, even though none of them are, and I even mixed up the CC and LC because they're so damn anodyne. Sure, Wolf doesn't have much inherent meaning compared to Jade Falcon, but they're meaningfully distinctive and easy to tell apart.

Of all the great houses, the Combine easily has the best branding: 'Draconis' means dragon and sounds cool and badass, and 'Combine' is a rare enough noun for a faction that it sticks out. They're also bright red and have that dragon in circle logo which is so cool Mortal Kombat basically uses it for their logo too, and that's before we get to all the katanas and Japanese and samurai stuff which sticks out from the vaguely western/European melange that comprise 60% of the great houses.

The Free Worlds League could, on name alone, be decent branding, and they've also go the eagle, which has been a pretty clear winner in terms of iconography for literally thousands of years. If they separated out that purple into red, white and blue they'd pretty clearly be your 'Murica stand-in and the obvious 'good guys' of the setting, so of course they're vaguely based on the Austro-Hungarian empire largely ignored for something like thirty years of real life history. If the game setup was the scrappy, freedom-lovin' patriots of the Free Worlds League against the evil, militaristic black and red empire of the Draconis Combine, it would slide much more easily into the cognitive space most people have in their heads. Generic, yes, but honestly it's a lot simpler to understand and pick a side than trying to explain that, see, the Federated Suns is Anglo-French European, the Lyran Commonwealth is Germanic European, and the Free Worlds League is 'hodgepodge of vaguely ethnic, not well known/understood central and eastern' European, and that's how they're different.

Compare that to the 'independent, innovative Wolves', versus the 'proud, rigid Jade Falcons' and 'vicious, savage and aggressive Smoke Jaguars' and you get the idea of who stands for what a whole lot quicker, especially as, at least at one point, they really did stand for different things, whereas the great houses largely stand for which feudal dynasty gets to rule the galaxy. Yes, there's substantial variation in what precise blend of despotism this means, but that's all this complicated nuance stuff that threatens to bore people off the whole setting if you're not careful about it.

I confess, I'm one of the people who first learned about BattleTech with MechWarrior 2 and the Wolves versus Falcons, so they were my introduction to the setting, but when I went to my local library and found the tie-in novels, I struggled to tell apart the different IS factions. I didn't realise, at any point in the novels that Victor Steiner-Davion was from a different nation state than Kai Allard-Liao; there's a good argument to be made that the St. Ives Compact wasn't really an independent nation state of its own, but all I saw was the broad brush of 'Clans vs. Inner Sphere', and while I could distinguish the different clans, because of their simple names and broad themes, the only great house I could recognise as distinct from the others was the Combine, because, as I mentioned above, they have by far the best branding.

My vague, half-remembered scraps of the cartoon conflated the 2nd Star League with the Federated Commonwealth (what a generic name!), which MechCommander, MechWarrior 3 and 4 entirely failed to disabuse me of, and I only really started 'getting' they were different in MechWarrior 4 Mercenaries when the FCCW was the main event. Frankly, without a grounding in the 3025 status quo, how was I supposed to tell apart these two western European flavours of feudal despotism, that they weren't 'naturally' the same faction? You have your blue western European kingdom fighting your yellow western European kingdom. Very distinctive. Sure, the blue guys are the bad guys, but nothing really communicated to me what, aside from their moral alignment, makes them different to the yellow guys.

Aside from the Combine, of course, there are actually factions in the Inner Sphere that are fairly distinctive and have good branding, but these aren't actually the main nation state players: most of the higher visibility mercenary units had decent branding, which I suppose is reasonable, given that branding is an in-universe concern for them as well. Wolf's Dragoons! Kell Hounds! Gray Death Legion! Incidentally, all of these things also have simple logos that would look good thrown on a jacket or t-shirt, though the names are perhaps less descriptive than the clans, who conveniently actively ape their namesakes in behaviour, but they at least sound cooler than the leaden, political names of the houses.

ComStar and the Word of Blake should have had good branding as well, what with the otherwise unused religious imagery, unique organisation, distinctive worldview, clear iconography, except that on the whole ComStar never really did anything involving giant robots blasting each other except Tukkayyid, while the Word of Blake were saddled with, well, the name of Word of Blake. Who is this Blake guy, and what's with this 'Word' of his? Red robes, cyborgs, superweapons and broadsword imagery weren't enough to save them from this spectacularly uninspiring name. They had all this crazy, techno-messianic-apocalyptic madness hidden behind that painfully dull name, and I guess it hardly helped when their one big shindig only happened in confusing retrospective sourcebooks.

It's quite telling that, in MechWarrior Dark Age, with the little splinter factions fighting amongst themselves, those factions were named something much more distinctive than their parents: 'Swordsworn', 'Dragon's Fury', 'Stormhammers'. Honestly, Dragon's Fury is pretty unnecessary for the best-branded great house, but sure. I don't know how the 'Federated Suns' is supposed to be meaningfully different from the 'Lyran Commonwealth' on names alone, but Swordsworn and Stormhammers give me some ideas as to how they're different while being largely true to the greater factional stereotypes. Honestly, I'd have had the Stormhammers named something about a fist instead, given hammers aren't a big part of Lyran iconography, but in getting across the idea of the faction (heavy hitting, brute force, no subtlety) it does the job pretty well.

To go off on an entirely different tangent, one thing I find fascinating about the clans is this attempt to be what I'd perhaps describe as a 'constitutional kratocracy', which isn't a concept I really find in other settings, though maybe if I was a die-hard Trekkie or Star Wars nerd I could make useful comparisons to Klingons or Mandalorians or whatever. In most of your 'proud warrior race guy' societies, you can overturn things with a duel to the death, sure, but aside from vague allusions to 'traditions' there usually aren't really any constraints on those challenges and duels. I find the clans particularly interesting in that they take this incredibly pessimistic view of human nature, i.e. that at the end of the day if someone really wants something he'll use deadly violence to get it, and, seeing it as inevitable, rather than trying to outlaw it, instead create a legal process to fit it into how society works without collapsing into anarchy.

Yeah sure, you can disagree with what your superior officer and throw down with him over it, but there's a whole bunch of procedures you go through if you want to go that far. Okay, you can try to overturn a majority democratic vote with force of arms, but the forces in that fight are in direct proportion to the final count of votes. Absolutely, if you really don't like something, you can use violence to protest it, but there's a time and a place for that we all agreed to; we're not savages, we're civilised warriors, and you can't just go around killing people you don't like at the drop of a hat, that's just barbaric.

This system of course falls apart in the Wars of Reaving, but, to me, it's an unusually well-elucidated system with its failures and weaknesses well-examined, at least partially to appease not-entirely-good-faith Inner Sphere fans with a hate-on for the clans after the terrible balancing of their introduction, but the setting is richer for it.

Comparatively, most of the Inner Sphere societies aren't subject to nearly the same level of scrutiny, probably because they aren't subject to nearly the same level of imagination in their creation, largely being 'like reality except politics is all aristocratic and feudal', or in the Combine's case, a particularly horrible aspects of various eras of Japan. The only one that has at least some imagination is the CapCon, which, for its sins, is the most aggressively interrogated of all the Inner Sphere societies by the fanbase. I won't really go into it here, but unlike at least some other states, it doesn't just seek to ape its historical antecedent but come up with its own vision and philosophy of totalitarianism; if the CC was just some ugly caricature of imperial China, it'd probably get less criticism from the fans.

I think, aside from being overpowered in their initial introduction to the game, the clans also have a certain amount of cachet as the 'high tech' faction, and if you stripped away all of their technology they'd lose something, but I don't think their unique technology needed to be overpowered, merely 'high tech' to retain that cachet. If the clans just had X-pulse lasers instead of their superlative clan versions for example, rather than the crappy, 2/3 range Star League versions the Inner Sphere were stuck with, that might have been enough to maintain that technological mystique, even though nobody thinks X-pulse lasers are overpowered.

Of course, if that were the case we'd probably have people shrieking about how X-pulse lasers are obviously, gruesomely overpowered and it's totally unfair these stupid clans get them, and extremely poorly veiled insinuations that it's only because they have such things that people like the clans.

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #36 on: 03 January 2024, 22:53:10 »
Yeah, I second that, it was only during MW4: Mercs I kinda or bothered to learn more about IS Houses, and the FCCW era in the game showed that they were different.

But yes, after learning about the Inner Sphere Houses, I still only viewed it as Clan vs Inner Sphere, with (being a Clanner) knew intricates of each Clan, but mainly Jade Falcon

It is only after the "Fusion state" Era's begin and IS Clans changing, after the WoR etc, I only started seeing the Houses as different and unique from one another

All that being said, the only real House I like now is Davion (May be a bit biased, as I do live in a Commonwealth country :cool:)

Generic Clanner 24601

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #37 on: 03 January 2024, 23:37:51 »
The question feels like it's asked in very bad faith. But I like talking about why I love the Clans, so I will answer it sincerely.

The answer is easy. Since I had no idea that the Clans had a tech advantage, I would say that it did not influence my love for them.

I got into BT as a kid through the CCG. I didn't notice an advantage *there. And even now, I play AS, so the tech advantage feels less of a thing from my understanding.

As for why I chose the Clans. Well, they had cooler names. I mean, that was a large part of it (at least that's why Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar were above Wolf). The rules books had quite a bit of lore in them if I remember correctly, but the Houses didn't quite click with me. The Clans though, they did. How the Clans evolved just seems much more interesting to me than the Houses. I love the Wolf's Dragoons for the same reason. They are an unique culture formed by the events that could only happen once. I also enjoy the Periphery some for the same reason, some for the others. But IS just doesn't click with me. Outside of mercs of course.

Honestly, I skimmed other posts, and many them pretty much said similar things, but better and more detailed.

As for what Clans I like, most of them not named Wolf. Though two in particular.

Snow Raven: Several factors here. I like the idea of a political manipulator Clan. Being an underdog who has come close to destruction multiple times is a plus in my book. I also like they settled in Outworlds Alliance being partial to the Periphery that I am.

Jade Falcon: Nostalgia from my childhood when they barely beat the Smoke Jaguars as my favorite faction in the CCG. I like how they are (for much of their history) how they are the most Clan of the Clans. I'm excited to see how Jiyi shapes the Clan after their near destruction. And their playstyles matches mine (well, in their later years).

*If it was obvious in the card game, I still missed it. I didn't have anyone to play with, so I just basically wound up collecting them.

Cannonshop

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #38 on: 04 January 2024, 09:41:01 »
Mmm... this question comes across as really, really bad faith.



The question feels like it's asked in very bad faith.

There are a few others, so I guess I need to say something.

I've been really, really, really  pleased at your responses, the question got exactly the reaction I wanted from most of you-actual investment in the Clan story, not their technical advantages or gameplay exemptions, or whatever, but the story and characterization of your favorite factions (or favored factions, anyway}...and a much lower amount of people bitching about gameplay items or 'people don't actually work that way' claims.

IOW, you can think it's in bad faith, but your answers are exactly the answers I actually wanted to read, and why I set the question up like I did-the people who actually don't didn't, for the most part, bother.

The exceptions to that, were very clear about their experience being very individual, rather than stereotyping whole swathes of the fanbase, which is what i've seen happen in threads like this that were less...aggressively phrased in the past-I effectively invalidated the munchkin claim by tossing it out first for people to destroy in their own minds while showing off their love for the factions and their understanding of why they love them.

so, maybe a little bit of bad faith, and I'll apologize for that, I very manipulatively got the responders to give me the responses I think actually matter, from people who actually care.

which is a bit of a dick move, but I'll own up to it being a manipulative, underhanded move on my part, because I got what I was after from you, and from the others who gave impassioned, clear, strong answers in favor of their favored factions.

My own experience: I started Battletech in High School, then hiatus for a while, then Battletech in the Army for a couple years, then hiatus, then Battletech again through the death of FASA.

From about the point 'Clan' started being a thing, I saw a lot of the negatives, but there were the occasional Clan Fans who actually liked the Clans, players who would sit down at the table and actually try to play the faction like it's written...because they weren't there merely to win, they wanted to win in Character.

Those are the guys who I enjoyed playing against, and who I enjoyed playing on the same team with.  They were fun to write campaigns for, and to run campaigns with.

And, they were more common than casual forumites would think, especially in the early days of the Internet.

Everyone has stories about that 'one guy' who won't use anything but Clantech, and mobs, uses massed focus fire, and abuses advantages.  I'm not looking for that guy, we all know he's out there, we've all got at least one of him in our gaming group, he's usually sitting next to the guy who doesn't know any of the history of his faction, but can list their weapons and unit specials without cracking a book..and we're not here to talk about THAT guy, either.

This thread is about the people who Know and love their faction for its story, and feel, and style and characters.

And, I'm happy to say that that person is most of the answers here.

anyway, I'm going back to shutting up now, so that my presence doesn't ruin or ****** this up.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #39 on: 04 January 2024, 12:23:10 »
I think its hard to get a true answer to that question based on these forums.

The people in this thread alone are clearly fans of the clans.

I don't disagree with any of the answers at all.

That said, hmm, yeah, honestly, I will go ahead & disagree with the premise that the entirety of the game base is equal to these excellent responses & say YES, there would have been "less" clan fans as a whole w/o the tech/munchkin advantage.

Lets face it, when the Clans appeared, if you played back in the early 90's, there were DEFINETLY those people that immediately went about using jumping TC custom Pulse boats against IS Intro Tech.  Now whether those munchkins still play today I can't say or if they are still clan fans or if they are on these boards.
 But I can say they did exist, lol.

As for me, (looks at avatar),  The first dozen or so novels in print sort of shaped my "factions".
  Though I will say the FM series did a wonderful job of giving me things that I can find to love about "most" factions.
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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Alan Grant

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #40 on: 04 January 2024, 14:12:33 »
I think its hard to get a true answer to that question based on these forums.

The people in this thread alone are clearly fans of the clans.

I don't disagree with any of the answers at all.

That said, hmm, yeah, honestly, I will go ahead & disagree with the premise that the entirety of the game base is equal to these excellent responses & say YES, there would have been "less" clan fans as a whole w/o the tech/munchkin advantage.

Lets face it, when the Clans appeared, if you played back in the early 90's, there were DEFINETLY those people that immediately went about using jumping TC custom Pulse boats against IS Intro Tech.  Now whether those munchkins still play today I can't say or if they are still clan fans or if they are on these boards.
 But I can say they did exist, lol.

As for me, (looks at avatar),  The first dozen or so novels in print sort of shaped my "factions".
  Though I will say the FM series did a wonderful job of giving me things that I can find to love about "most" factions.


First a quick shoutout to Cannonshop. Your explanation is appreciated, and I'm happy to see the range of responses as well. So it's been a good thread. Thanks for starting it.

Responding to Hellraiser's answer. Fewer fans if Clan tech was less powerful... sure, probably. I can't prove or disprove anything, thus your theory is valid.

But I think more important than all of that from my perspective, was how much focal story time the Clans got. Novels, video games (Mechwarrior 2 but even being the scary enemy in Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries was impactful), cartoon etc. Clans everywhere.

I think that actually had more of an influence than the technology and game mechanics. In my critical Battletech fan forming years, what was out to be read and be played was the early Mechwarrior games, with a focus on the Clans and the Clan Invasion. I was also exposed to the cartoon. I was also exposed to the novels. From the Blood of Kerensky series to the Twilight of the Clans novels and on past that. I became a fan right in the middle of the Twilight of the Clans novel series era as those books were being published. I have very distinct memories of going to a store and buying those books.

I was also a HUGE fan of FM: CC and FM: WC, and The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky. Those books drove a lot of my interest in the Clans and they were published in that same late '90s window.

The Clans were frequently depicted in everything. They honestly felt very front-and-center to the whole BT universe.

In terms of Great Houses I was actually a FWL fan back then as well. But it was very difficult to be a FWL fan when the 3050s-60s were playing out in real time. They just weren't doing anything. I felt very alone in my FWL fandom back them. I was a FWL trivia nerd when nobody in my particular group of BT fans cared even a little about the FWL. But fellow Clan fans were everywhere (and even if they weren't Clan "fans" they were often happy to discuss the Clans because they were central to the main storylines of the universe). There's little doubt in my mind (both back then and today) that the frequent product exposure to the Clans drove a lot of the fandom.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2024, 14:29:32 by Alan Grant »

Dr. Banzai

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #41 on: 04 January 2024, 15:42:26 »
Meh. I always saw the Clans as villains and always will. I do agree that a large part of their popularity was that their toys were better than IS jocks (even though their tactics, moral code, and general inability to win against a large portion of IS mercs and troops was deflating).

I am not the Dr. Banzai from Facebook/Youtube. That person is a hateful person that does not represent the spirit of Buckaroo Banzai nor its fandom.

Geg

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #42 on: 04 January 2024, 19:36:51 »
I came to Battletech via Mechwarrior 2 and the fiction.  I was a Clan fan well before I ever got a taste of their table top prowess.

It was just silly to insinuate that "munchkin allure" is why the Clans have fans.

It's also a weird pre-2007 framing.  Clan Tech hasn't been overpowered since BV2 became a thing.  Just expensive.

Hellraiser

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #43 on: 04 January 2024, 20:26:18 »
that the frequent product exposure to the Clans drove a lot of the fandom.

This is why I ended up a FedCom/Merc+Wolf.
The only book out of the first dozen-ish that didn't center on them was the Teddy K one.
Even the Wolf books had a very Dragoon/Kell feel to them.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Apocal

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Re: Speculation Question: (Please don't kill me for suggesting this!!)
« Reply #44 on: 05 January 2024, 05:40:15 »
can you explain why?

Because my first exposure to BT was Mechwarrior 2 and my second exposure was the novel "Bloodname." I had been into BT for awhile before realizing the IS was the primary part of the setting.