BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Precentor Scorpio on 27 June 2018, 20:47:38
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Just trying to figure how Wolfnet was so good. Is it possible to intercept Hpg transmissions? Yes I know too much data is gathered this way but it could be the easiest explanation. So is it possible to intercept H P G transmissions and how do you this?
Thank you
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Apparently all it takes to receive a HPG transmission is a conventional radio. Decrypting ComStar's encryption protocols however may be more challenging than most can manage. Maybe not for Wolfnet.
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as i understand it, the HPG basically jumps a signal between stars.. while the HPG is needed on the sending end, on the receiving end it is just radio signals radiating out from the point of arrival. so i suspect you can record those transmissions.
but i also suspect that Comstar encrypted their signals so that people listening in can't easily understand the contents.. and that most of the traffic from the successor states regarding governmental or military matters was also encrypted before it was even handed over to comstar in the first place.
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I often wonder if Wolf's Intel People had access to "standard" Comstar encryption key/backdoor, which might have been leftover from Star League and well might have been in Clan Goliath Scorpion large collection of Star League knowledge.
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It's hard to say what ComStar did in terms of updating the HPG network. It seems that after a generation or two of ComStar techs, the pseudo-religious aspect took over and everything was more of a patchwork. A long-standing backdoor might still have been present. It was like updating a computer program, but instead of rewriting the code to make it more efficient, the developers just piled on more code on top of code.
Kind of like Adobe Photoshop the last time I used it. ;)
Regardless, that provides for some interesting story potential. In fact, the only impetus to actually make some changes would have been after the schism in 3052.
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We know the Dragoons know how to use HPGs. We see that in wolves on the border
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True, but the encryption is the issue, not the transmission technology.
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But how often would Comstar change encryption keys? 2000 HPG stations, it would take a lot of time to distribute the new encryption keys --- you wouldn't transmit them, so it would have to be hand delivered.
Craig
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actually, the dragoons might not even need the key itself.. just a copy of the software Comstar uses to generate it. after all, it would be much easier to reset the keys than to rework the entire encryption system to a new set up. so if wolfnet had a copy of the old SLDF encryption systems, they could more easily work out the key being used. they'd know what to look for, effectively.
and presumably the successor state encoding and encryption systems would be vulnerable to them as well. because they'd be not only simpler due to the hardware decline, but the dragoon's would have had access to samples of them when they served with each successor state.
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But how often would Comstar change encryption keys? 2000 HPG stations, it would take a lot of time to distribute the new encryption keys --- you wouldn't transmit them, so it would have to be hand delivered.
Craig
That may not have been as difficult as you think though. ComStar had a lot of JumpShips that would do mail calls to planets without an HPG. Heck they could've diverted JumpShips from the Explorer Corps if they needed to.
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Individual modern nations handle distribution of encryption keys to more units than that on a monthly basis. It's hard, but not that hard.
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I'm not so sure if ComStar is the party to handle encryption.
The service ComStar provides is "jumping" the transmitter signal from a HPG to its destination - usually another HPG, but potentially any place anywhere where they expect a receiver to be nearby.
(HPGs do have "receiver" rooms but their purpose is to dampen the signal so that it doesn't cause damage via its emergence wave and cannot be listened to; also it is possible, but wasn't spelled out anywhere afaik, that some sort of receiver antenna is required within a gravity well.)
In any case, that says little about the message itself. You can apparently deliver a message to a ComStar temple in a myriad of ways, even show up personally to record a message or have it written down by Acolytes. Presumably, ComStar dicated messages to be delivered open and unencrypted prior to the 3050s simply because they could, and it helped ROM stay on top of what was going on. Mystic mumbo-jumbo was used to explain the requirement.
There was no need nor even a desire for encryption, as all message traffic was handled within ComStar.
This is the timeframe where WolfNet was most successful.
After the schism and as HPG technology proliferated to other factions, it is reasonable to assume that you could deliver data storage devices that held encrypted data, and have these transmitted as-is. The trust in ComStar was largely gone, and most nations were already using alternate channels for top-secret data, and had been doing that since before the 4th SW. But like in the real world, if secure channels are too cumbersome to use some people will revert to the internet...
Another thing is that I've long suspected Wolf's Dragoons have been using at least one Bug-Eye surveillance ship. I seem to recall a single one was even mentioned somewhere, but I can't find the reference.
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Another thing to point out on encryption, key generation could be entirely automated. Send a new seed out to each station via broadcast and let the software handle the rest. As long as they all use the same software you don't need to hand deliver anything. As long as you have the proper seed each station can generate the same key. You could even generate the keys in advance and deliver them once a year if you were secure in the knowledge that no one could figure out what was what.
If this type of system was setup by the SLDF and continued seeing use by Comstar it would be very easy to know whatever Comstar was sharing between ROM agents. Encryption used by other houses would be less advanced and easier to crack. Not to mention that with Wolfnet they could place agents on major worlds to pick up intelligence the old fashioned way as well.
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Thank you.
Obtaining the information is one part. Deciphering and analyzing the information is the second part but that could be another topic.
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Would it be possible that Wolfnet had all the Star League Backdoor Codes,they would've had all that stuff, when they left on the Exodus.
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Would it be possible that Wolfnet had all the Star League Backdoor Codes,they would've had all that stuff, when they left on the Exodus.
I don't think that would be outside of the realm of possibility.
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Another thing to point out on encryption, key generation could be entirely automated. Send a new seed out to each station via broadcast and let the software handle the rest. As long as they all use the same software you don't need to hand deliver anything. As long as you have the proper seed each station can generate the same key. You could even generate the keys in advance and deliver them once a year if you were secure in the knowledge that no one could figure out what was what.
If this type of system was setup by the SLDF and continued seeing use by Comstar it would be very easy to know whatever Comstar was sharing between ROM agents. Encryption used by other houses would be less advanced and easier to crack. Not to mention that with Wolfnet they could place agents on major worlds to pick up intelligence the old fashioned way as well.
There's also tricks you can do with encryption. Like having a new key be one way compatible with the old key. Useful for those times when a particular HPG is behind or sloppy with their COMSEC practices... lets you hear their panicky "Wait, what code should we be on again!?!?" transmissions.
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Individual modern nations handle distribution of encryption keys to more units than that on a monthly basis. It's hard, but not that hard.
Luckily for them it doesn't take months to traverse the realm.
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I take it you've never worked with a COMSEC shop. There are several ways around travel time.
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ComStar had a lot of JumpShips that would do mail calls to planets without an HPG. Heck they could've diverted JumpShips from the Explorer Corps if they needed to.
I don't know that it's "a lot." Less than sixty, for sure, with six months between visits. If ComStar were to send new encryption codes by hand, that would mean an Adept is present on half or more of these independent freighters; which could be the case, but the message from Wyatt to Pacifica in the Warrior Trilogy didn't give me that impression.
Another thing is that I've long suspected Wolf's Dragoons have been using at least one Bug-Eye surveillance ship. I seem to recall a single one was even mentioned somewhere, but I can't find the reference.
I made that suggestion years ago. (I doubt I'm the first to do so, but it's the only time I can recall seeing it in print.) If there is a BattleTech publication talking about a Dragoon Bug Eye, it's got to be a Jihad or BattleCorp thing.
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I made that suggestion years ago. (I doubt I'm the first to do so, but it's the only time I can recall seeing it in print.) If there is a BattleTech publication talking about a Dragoon Bug Eye, it's got to be a Jihad or BattleCorp thing.
It's a plausible explanation in any case.
But it seems I misremembered about a Dragoon Bug-Eye appearing in print. Turns out the reference I dimly remembered was in Interstellar Expeditions, p. 31, where IE (and not the Dragoons) lament the loss of their only Bug-Eye in the 3090s.
There is of course the question where they got it from in the first place. But ComStar (who took over the Star League's secret Ross and Luyten fleet bases, at least one of which was dedicated to the spyship fleet) is far more likely than the Dragoons.
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It's a plausible explanation in any case.
But it seems I misremembered about a Dragoon Bug-Eye appearing in print. Turns out the reference I dimly remembered was in Interstellar Expeditions, p. 31, where IE (and not the Dragoons) lament the loss of their only Bug-Eye in the 3090s.
There is of course the question where they got it from in the first place. But ComStar (who took over the Star League's secret Ross and Luyten fleet bases, at least one of which was dedicated to the spyship fleet) is far more likely than the Dragoons.
IIRC didn't Interstellar Expeditions (a totally awesome Babylon 5 reference) take over the old Comstar Explorer Corps resources? i know that for awhile after the Jihad they were working together.
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One Bug Eye would not be enough, and for general signals intercept would not even be necessary.
I don't buy the ComStar back door either, as assuming there was one and the firmware was never changed, most signals are multiple encrypted. message for Comstar are encrypted prior to package and then are encrypted again, as all messages are batched it makes sense that any Comstar data traffic is separately encrypted also as data is confidential within Comstar itself.
Wolfnet's success is based around the fact that it is made up of loyal personnel, who have no history outside the cover story the Dragoons give them. Most agencies have to deal with known loyalists who can thus be tracked by multiple factions, the entirity of Wolfs Dragoons come from nowhere and yet have a very solid and secret cohesion. Hence why nobody cottoned on that Snords Irregulars are detached Wolf's Dragoons. The integration and seperation are both seamless and indetectable to anyone who is not on the inside, and good luck getting in on the inside of the Dragoons.
In short Wolfnet have a critical advantage in Humint, plus superior standard Signalsint advantages because they have access to Star League/Clan level EW and intelligence technology. They no more need a unique magical tech bypass than Mossad does to get on by. They both win by having high end equipment plus a vast well connected diaspora to draw operatives with inherently sound cover stories from.
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(This is in addition to encrypting each message individually, plus the customer making the message encrypted to begin with)
One stunt I could see is each station having its own encryption key, and the decryption keys for the stations within its 50-ly range.
So station #1 encrypts and sends a message to station #2. Station #2 decrypts the message, encrypts it with its own key, and passes it on to station #3. Station #3 decrypts the message, encrypts it with its own key, and sends it on. The only thing sent in the clear is which station is the sender (plus date/time), so any HPG station that receives the message can attempt to decrypt the message if they have the key for the sending station. Inside the overall transmission would be a checksum value to make sure the receiver decrypted it successfully. If the receiver didn't decrypt it successfully, the message is sent to Terra for the adepts on Terra to decrypt the message and figure out who it is supposed to go to.
This way, even if someone gets the encryption keys for a station, they don't get the full HPG network access, they just get the data for that station and the stations within 50 light-years. The others are still encrypted. You could even have multiple encryption methods being used, so you can't just perform a brute force crack on other messages.
The encryption component itself would be kept very secure (likely with a 24-hr button so if nobody punches in the button code every 24 hours, it self-destructs). If the box is destroyed, the station sends a message in the clear so that Terra knows it needs a new encryption component (and likely a new Precentor since it happened on his/her watch).
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They use Morse code to send and receive the messages because it's LosTech. :)
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One point in Wolfnet's favor is that Comstar is a religious organization for almost all of the same time the Wolves are masquerading as mercenaries. No religious organization changes its holy texts - and with the reverence for the Blessed Blake, whatever encryption sequences and codes his Ministry of Communications were using under the old Star League are, very likely, still in use over the centuries. All Wolfnet had to do was bug the Scorpions* for some old keys, and suddenly they're reading everyone's mail.
It also fits why Wolfnet lost its effectiveness after the Clan war and wasn't the prime OOC source for information after around '55 or so. Remember when all the various scenario books and other things had all the Wolfnet data with them, and then afterwards it was mostly Comstar's POV? The secularization brought about a "deBlakeification" and an acceptance of not constantly reusing the same holy-writ passages, and a switch to new coding systems.
Up till then, it was like the Japanese using JN-25 in WWII constantly. Maybe some minor variations, but they were always cracked quickly since they kept using the basic structure. After Focht took over, Comstar switches its systems completely. I grant it's just speculative, and probably hasn't ever been seriously thought about or worked out by the devs one way or another, but it makes some sense from an IC perspective at least.
*As there were a few Scorpions scattered among the Dragoons, and they had trained up the five regiment unit on Star League protocols and tactics, COMSEC would be one of those things. Hell, maybe they even had some Scorpion who was an old-school Star League radio fanboy who was integral to it all.
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It also doesn't help that many of the Wolfnet personnel also probably retired or killed off by then. The Dragoon civil war might have also played a large role as well.
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Wolfnet dying off is not a problem, it passes to the younger generation. Same effort but with in house mentoring.
Wolfnet lost its main advantage due to tech proliferation. Star League tech eas always available, it was just poorly distributed. The great houses had Star league intelligence technology for key roles and key operatives, but they were big and as data moved further from house capitals it travelled on less secure and advanced channels. Wolfnet however could sift info out in the boondocks from primitive security tech with their own rigs with technology based on the clan watch.
Helm technology didint proliferate overnight and until after the clan invasion Comstar was playing whack-a-mole with it and largely kept the tech out of great house hands. GDL stll had it, but those the GDL gave it to ended up with strange accidents. The GDL gave the tech to the NAIS in person, and Kurita got a copy directly from Duke Ricol, though late and by asking.
I don't know how the CapCon got the Helm core relatively late, and IIRC the League got Star League technology from a a comparable list that the Wobbies had, not a copy of the Helm core.
Everything moved so slow that even after Helm there was a low tech military communications infrastructure that took a long time to replace and Wolfnet had an extended window to operate. Primacy until 3055 sounds about right, and if any single event signalled the end of the hegemony period, Elson's Challenge is it. Because that marked the time when Dragoons could no longer entirely trust themselves, and lost their main Humint advantage.
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It also fits why Wolfnet lost its effectiveness after the Clan war and wasn't the prime OOC source for information after around '55 or so.
Wolfnet didn't become the prime OOC source until 3058.
I don't know how the CapCon got the Helm core relatively late, and IIRC the League got Star League technology from a a comparable list that the Wobbies had, not a copy of the Helm core.
Proliferation is discussed near the back of the 20 Year Update and near the front of TR:3050. The TRO says the CapCon got their technology in trade from the Free Worlds in 3046, and the League got theirs from the Combine about four years earlier.
a vast well connected diaspora to draw operatives with inherently sound cover stories from.
Huh? Snord was a singular case. What diaspora, and how does being a Dragoon with no history create a non-Dragoon cover story, let alone an inviolate one?
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Huh? Snord was a singular case. What diaspora, and how does being a Dragoon with no history create a non-Dragoon cover story, let alone an inviolate one?
Dragoon operatives could turn up from anywhere, preferably a boondocks world within the space nation being targeted. what becomes relevant is the operatives skillset not checking out an uncheckable backstory. Build some credibility then move progressively closer to the capital. Sleeper agent 101.
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Ahh, okay, I see now. That makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
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Thank St.Herb of the cleansing balefire they got glassed.
Yeah, I went all text wally. Tl;dr:
If I head canon the Dragoons from a uber-super-ultra-elite outfit to a uber-super-ultra-elite outfit who pulled of an intel coup like once, does it change anything whatsoever? At all? Besides having to decide who actually circulated misinformation with Wolfnet's name on it? (Clearly it was the Wolverines)
I appreciate we're all just trying to justify what some hungover hack at Fasa1 came up with way back when, however:
The idea that ROM never changed the locks makes an absolute mockery of them and every other intel gatherer in the universe. Which isn't just major players. Corps, nobles, lesser cabals, anybody & their dog who would be able (and through whose hands it could slip to the major player's) to profit off such a thing regardless of if they have the capacity to run an interstellar intel agency.
Also is ROM reputation so fearsome it protected the HPG network before they even existed? Because rather critically this would also have been taking place before C*, and before they got a handle on things indeed there was a point when everyone was scooping up everything SL they could get their grubby mitts which also runs before everyone's tech base got kicked in the teeth. Again mockery...for centuries...with SL cache turn up like the work of a meth head squirrel...
As far as tech, for which encryption doesn't and codes certainly don't have the same unobatium supply chain a battlemech does to wave our hands at. As well i'm not recalling House capitals getting cooked so much so how much tech degradation are we talking about for intel gatherers/when? Is there a source for needing just a radio? Because if it's not a closed system that makes a mockery of not just ROM/the house agencies (for starters how are all the HPGs not located on at least the equivalent of Mars, with the key traffic being sent securely in system?) but the house lords2. If the Dragoons brought & have magic Clan/SL code breakers that just causes more problems which brings me to the thing i'm actually posting for. Which is if I head canon the Dragoons from a uber-super-ultra-elite outfit to a uber-super-ultra-elite outfit who pulled of an intel coup like once, does it change anything whatsoever? At all? Besides having to decide who actually circulated misinformation with Wolfnet's name on it? (Clearly it was the Wolverines)
Additionally, that the techno barbarians with only a vestigial understanding of intel work ended up pulled this off and became the premier agency is not only pure canon which da sense it makesa none, but that's twofold. Because it's 'became' instead of at least 'founded'. They are absolutely one of those lesser players I mentioned. Every Dragoon cook must have a head full of ROM email as he spends every spare minute of the day trying to keep up. Leaving aside that C* isn't the phone company IN SPAAACE it's your long distance carrier IN SPAACE so they still absolutely need to do field work. I mean they would have to anyway i'm pointing out sigint isn't all they'd need. Even if the blackboxes didn't exists. Whereas without that sweet sweet deus-ex-machina it's a non starter. Having no background, and being from an alien culture, or a dodgy recruit for a dodgy business isn't a strength. It's a distinct disadvantage. Maybe I didn't quite grasp the boondocks scheme, but it seems to me that for one thing that makes everyone else a fool for not doing that as well, or they are all doing it, with more resources than the 'goons. Though mostly for the sheer volume, and 'just in case' because second thing is it isn't going to work. The boondocks are finding out what's going on about the same time as the rest of the galaxy. Key seats of power, garrisons, and so on would of course receive priority for secure communications channels & security, and would as well be where the dragoons needed to be. It also doesn't fit the kind of access they've been shown with POV. The boonies just aren't getting the prime stuff, and the more interesting circles are simply not open to people who don't have a check able background. I'm not saying you're dealing in impossibilities, it might make the dragoons a humble player in the intelligence game, but if you're saying somewhere out there; there's a key Mossad agent they stuck on an oil rig in Alaska thirty years ago so that shortly before he retires he could...well maybe me thinking it's unlikely is exactly what They want. Of course we know the Mossad exist so they're clearly not as good as the dragoons and their interstellar network.
In short, it's pure fiat. There's no way to get the Dragoons into a ballpark where there's a fig of leaf of plausibility. Indeed I may as well decide Jamie's an Adventure Bros style clone cause he gets shot in the face every time someone puts together his plan of protecting the IS from the clans by hoarding tech, and quietly waiting for them to show up while playing mercs forever.
1. I have hard proof. Pick any early 90's SR scenario. Any. They are all prima facie evidence against sobriety.
2. Interdiction wasn't the most plausible thing before this idea.
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Standard planetary HPGs jumped their signals from inside a tightly sealed, fusion reactor-like chamber and targeted a similar chamber so that - say - surrounding cities weren't hammered by the EMP-like pulses of an arriving hyperspace pulse. You couldn't intercept the signal itself except by hacking into the HPG station. Or having someone on the inside. Or all the usual tricks to get at a closed-circuit comm signal.
Mobile HPGs were less accurate and tended to have their signals arrive in the general vicinity of the target, where the signals emerging from the hyperpulse are pretty much normal radio signals. Intercept them and deal with their encryption as usual.
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Interesting... I don't recall seeing that before. Where's it from Cray?
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Interesting... I don't recall seeing that before. Where's it from Cray?
If it isn't in an Interstellar or Campaign Ops fluff chapter, then it still hasn't been published and you'll have to mine bits from Explorer Corps and rules on mobile HPGs. Explorer Corps allows easy reception of HPG arriving signals, but rules for mobile HPGs indicate there's an EMP aspect. ComStar stations near cities can't allow the EMP effects, and wouldn't want their monopoly endangered by anyone with a radio receiver.
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That last part is why I always figured they targeted the general vicinity of the planet, and used large receiving dishes to pick up the inbound signals...
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That last part is why I always figured they targeted the general vicinity of the planet, and used large receiving dishes to pick up the inbound signals...
The dishes on the station are conventional radio systems to connect with the rest of the planet's telecommunications infrastructure. Again, ComStar's not interested in giving away its transmissions for free when they arrive.
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Right, that's what I figured their encryption was for...
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Right, that's what I figured their encryption was for...
Isn't encryption is a bit harder when someone else is inserting known data into your transmission?
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One time pads are pretty impervious... even if they break one message, they won't necessarily get anything else.
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One time pads are pretty impervious... even if they break one message, they won't necessarily get anything else.
Granted, but ComStar has to handle the telecommunications traffic of trillions of people on a daily basis. Further, per the ComStar SB transmissions are repeated across all HPGs in range and bounced from planet to planet until they're received, often multiple times. Such repetition of diverse, random communications is really not conducive to the use of one-time pads.
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I always envisioned that the HPG terminals had something akin to the Enigma Cipher installed on each end. It would automatically generate the encryption key and sent that to the final destination station to decipher it into a readable language. All stations between the sender and final receiver would not decipher the code. The encryption machine itself generates and sends the code as being readable only by the receiving machine to verify that this is a legitimate transmission.
By using such methods it would preclude Wolfnet from being able to gain access or find out anything from the ComStar HPG network. I doubt anyone in the Clans would know of it since it's clear that Stefan Amaris nearly wiped out all those that worked on the HPG network.
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Mobile HPGs were less accurate ...
Great. Another use for the artillery scatter rules. ;)
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Great. Another use for the artillery scatter rules. ;)
I'm imagining a Monty Python style scene:
(Busy communications center, overseeing a planetary operation, and suddenly the whole room suddenly goes dark from EMP)
Smart-aleck communications officer: "HPG Message for you sir"
Based off this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SwNXQMoNps)
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If it isn't in an Interstellar or Campaign Ops fluff chapter, then it still hasn't been published and you'll have to mine bits from Explorer Corps and rules on mobile HPGs. Explorer Corps allows easy reception of HPG arriving signals, but rules for mobile HPGs indicate there's an EMP aspect. ComStar stations near cities can't allow the EMP effects, and wouldn't want their monopoly endangered by anyone with a radio receiver.
Interesting, I did not know that HPG involved transmitter to transmitter traffic. This is helpful in establishing that hyperspace tech is very precise.
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I always envisioned that the HPG terminals had something akin to the Enigma Cipher installed on each end. It would automatically generate the encryption key and sent that to the final destination station to decipher it into a readable language. All stations between the sender and final receiver would not decipher the code. The encryption machine itself generates and sends the code as being readable only by the receiving machine to verify that this is a legitimate transmission.
By using such methods it would preclude Wolfnet from being able to gain access or find out anything from the ComStar HPG network. I doubt anyone in the Clans would know of it since it's clear that Stefan Amaris nearly wiped out all those that worked on the HPG network.
Except we know the other stations can. In the Comstar soursce book I belive it talks about WoB sometimes changing transmissions in route. I belived they changed someones part order to like a 100 small lasers are something like that. Been I look time since I read that book though.
Also we know that whatever is used works accross Comstar Wob and Clan HPG's so I am not so sure that Comstar has a encription system they control.
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Wait - HPGs and KF drives use the same tech, right? A KF drive can easily be off by large enough distances that use of pirate points is risky, but a HPG is so precise that it can hit a single room from 50 LY? How does that work?
I know the real answer - gameplay needs pirate points to be risky, and the fluff needs ComStar to be functional. But a fluff answer would also be useful. If I had to suggest one, perhaps jump tech is extremely mass-dependent - you can do simple math to figure out the implied mass of the electronic signal being sent by a HPG, but weighing a whole ship equally precisely is effectively impossible, so the margin of error is much higher. That'd also be why a HPG can work on a planet's surface - it's both very localized, so you don't have to worry about distortion, and the precisely known mass means you can compensate for the gravity well.
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Except we know the other stations can. In the Comstar soursce book I belive it talks about WoB sometimes changing transmissions in route. I belived they changed someones part order to like a 100 small lasers are something like that. Been I look time since I read that book though.
Also we know that whatever is used works accross Comstar Wob and Clan HPG's so I am not so sure that Comstar has a encription system they control.
Everyone's perspectives are skewed by their experiences... but in my mind the HPG network was always Space AUTODIN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Digital_Network).
I think the examples of the WoB messing with HPG traffic were all done in cases when HPG messages were routed through Stations in the WoB's hands (or thru ComStar stations with Blakists subversives at the controls). In other words if a message has to get from Point A to Point B, the message goes through Class A HPGs X Y and Z before final transmission to B. Editing was done at X Y and or Z. No need to "intercept" a HPG message.
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I'm in the camp that thought HPG's targeted "systems".
I swear I read that somewhere years ago.
The signal could be picked up by anyone in the system as the wave emerged, but was encrypted, so you still had to pick up your message at the local CS center.
Now I'm wondering where I read that.
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Well the HPG network has always been described as having a hub & spoke/star topology. I.E. Class A HPGs have subordinate Class B HPGs across the surrounding systems. Those Class B HPGs never talk to each other; anything coming or going to that system is sent or recieved by the servicing Class A. And if the planet with a Class B needs to send a message to a planet that is a part of a different Class A hub, the Class As relay across the "First Circuit" until the correct Class A has the message to transmit to the B.
So if you're hypothetically intercepting HPG traffic, unless all you care about is traffic explicitly concerning affairs on the local world you need to physically be in the system with a Class A HPG. And even if you can break ComStar's encryption fast enough to read all the traffic in that system, there'll be such a raw mass of data the odds of finding anything specific to what you care about is probably slim.
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Hmm, that isn't how I understood it at all.
I read that B's just didn't transmit as frequently to different locations as the A-Stations did.
HPGs have distance limitations just like KF Drives do.
If 2 worlds are in distance of each other & have class B stations they can still transmit to each other w/o going through the Class-A.
A-Stations are in constant use & realign there dishes to different worlds all the time. (Or at least more often than B)
B-Stations send less frequently & to less destinations & leave the dish fixed to a single target point for longer.
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Thanks for letting me know I'm not totally crazy Hellraiser...
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Apparently all it takes to receive a HPG transmission is a conventional radio. Decrypting ComStar's encryption protocols however may be more challenging than most can manage. Maybe not for Wolfnet.
The apparent information I was going off of is a lot less official than I realized. Turns out you can't (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62186.msg1428602#msg1428602) just use a ham radio to receive a radio broadcast from a HPG transmission.
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All due respect to Adrian Gideon, but is there a citation? My comments in the doubly linked thread were never answered (referring to using the emergence wave to signal rather than "teleporting" photons).
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The apparent information I was going off of is a lot less official than I realized. Turns out you can't (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62186.msg1428602#msg1428602) just use a ham radio to receive a radio broadcast from a HPG transmission.
Actually you can. While I strongly agree with Adrian, and have been trying to write a post that doesn't bore even me about the issues this causes in the lore:
Exploer Corps (Thanks Cray. I would never have looked) pg.34 "To receive an HPG message, the recipient must be within approximately 600 million kilometers (appromixately 4 AU) of the signal. Beyond that distance, the radio element of the HPG signal may be absorbed or swamped by background noise. Once an HPG pulse arrives at its destination, it propagates in a similar manner to radio waves and can thus be detected with appropriate equipment."
The 'may' seems rather odd as it looks like a non-issue if you've broken through the I want to say, ionsphere, which you surely have for that range, and so I wonder what the writer had in mind with 4 AU. The 'appropriate' might lead you to think there's hand waving wiggle room, but it continues, "Contary to popular misconception and accepted practice, such receiving equipment need not be situated at an HPG facility. For this reason, HPG communications are routinely compressed and heavily encrypted in order to secure them, often with dual-key systems." I mean i'm interested to hear how that's not totally saying anyone with a sci-fi ham radio is good to go, but i'm not seeing it, and it would make the passage arcanely pointless.
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Thank you Von Rohrs! Now I'm even more curious to see what Adrian was referring to...
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“Appropriate equipment” and “such receiving equipment” —specialized equipment, not everyday or hobby gear, but does allow for interception. One of the services provided to Kerensky by Blake during the Amaris War.
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So you're saying things that propagate like radio waves need more than radios to receive them?
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If they were radio waves, It would have been stated in one of the several references, “they’re radio waves” instead of using language like “propagate in a similar manner to radio waves.”
“Appropriate equipment,” not oh, any ole receiver on hand. Several mentions in the sources of “receivers,” not recipients or targets or destinations.
And the only canon mention I can find it interception was by (pre-)ComStar itself.
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So... if they're not radio waves, then HPGs don't teleport photons. That means they have to use some other signaling mechanism, and the emergence wave is the only one that springs to mind (which is IR if memory serves). Is it that? IR across interplanetary distances would require more specialized equipment than a ham radio...
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That does make Comstar being able to establish and keep it's neutrality a lot more plausible.
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So... if they're not radio waves, then HPGs don't teleport photons. That means they have to use some other signaling mechanism, and the emergence wave is the only one that springs to mind (which is IR if memory serves). Is it that? IR across interplanetary distances would require more specialized equipment than a ham radio...
IIRC, the emergence effect is the heat (infrared radiation) from dust and stuff that gets vaporized when it overlaps with the jump field. Space does have dust and other stuff around after all. Not sure HPG pulse would do that.
Infrared is pretty visible over long distances. Using it for signaling isn't really that easy though, especially since oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere has tendency to absorb quite a bit of it, planetary receivers would have hard time with it.
I would guess HPG could be modulating hyperspace at the end point to create signals that can be detected with correct equipment, probably not quite simple radiowaves. Far from as complex as the HPG itself, but not your everyday stuff either.
Consider how Blackboxes send waves through hyperspace that can carry information, i would guess the effect is analogous but within real universe than just hyperspace.
(Note that i use hyperspace as a shorthand for the "medium" where KF jumps and HPGs happen, BT doesn't have literal version of hyperspace like Star Wars has but there is something evidently.)
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That does make Comstar being able to establish and keep it's neutrality a lot more plausible.
Would you elaborate? I would have preferred Adrian declared that section an outright mistruth (Wolverines I tell ya), and that there are no unnamed sci-fi ham radios (or CB etcetra). I see only downsides to it not being a closed system.
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I would guess HPG could be modulating hyperspace at the end point to create signals that can be detected with correct equipment, probably not quite simple radiowaves. Far from as complex as the HPG itself, but not your everyday stuff either.
Consider how Blackboxes send waves through hyperspace that can carry information, i would guess the effect is analogous but within real universe than just hyperspace.
Hmm, interesting idea. Could also explain Grey Monday and Fortress Republic, if the cause is super HPGs sending out 'static' and making waves in jumpspace.
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Well a lot of Comstar's ability to be neutral relied heavily on that they were the only ones able to run the HPG network.
Now true to a certain extent this still works as long as they are the only ones able to transmit but if it takes something more sophisticated than an off the shelf ham radio to receive as well and that technology is also firmly in the hands of Comstar, it does make Comstar's position as a neutral party a bit easier to maintain as there is now even greater risk of damaging something important if someone decides to take over an HPG compound for themselves.
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Hmm, interesting idea. Could also explain Grey Monday and Fortress Republic, if the cause is super HPGs sending out 'static' and making waves in jumpspace.
Not sure the Fortress Republic is done with Super HPGs but it is almost certainly done with series of devices (on the account of its shape as much as can be judged from a 2D map, plus TRO3150 refers it was "walls", multiple) that somehow manipulate hyperspace to make it impassable.
Hilariously, if Tucker Harwell was right about his assertion that the Fortress effect is a "blind" (and we take that literally), then it might be bypassable by jumping near it, flying across, and then jumping within the field (something that is certainly possible, otherwise the Republic couldn't get anything done, and we know they can leave the Fortress). Of course, unless you know where the boundary is, this isn't as easy as it sounds.
The Gray Monday effect is likely a similar effect. Given on how large area it, you suggestion of it being caused by Super HPGs is plausible, though given that many HPGs were physically sabotaged (likely to cover up the fact someone is capable of manipulating hyperspace on large scale), i reckon that localized blockers could've been seeded across the Inner Sphere. Maybe not as simple though.
I'll note that earlier use of Super HPGs created the Whiteout, during the Jihad by WoB, done by broadcasting garbage and static, but ultimately the natures of the Whiteout and Blackout are different, which kinda implies Super HPGs aren't responsible (if they are, their use has been radically refined).
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Who said anything about it being firmly in the hands of Comstar? As well if that's the case wouldn't it mean the hands of C*, the Word, the Clans, anyone who got it from the Clans, the houses after Scorpion, anyone who got it from them, possibly the Davions before then, and for good measure that the pack of ruthless genocidal warlords (...and Aleisha Liao) who make up the house lords all hated power so much they also gave C* a monopoly on this tech?
In the same vein the SFHR not literally being hobby gear isn't the same thing as it being HPG II: Electric Boogaloo.
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Well Comstar's neutrality was pretty well busted by Scorpion anyway and true the Clans would likely have the gear but again for when Comstar had credibility as a neutral power they were not in the Inner Sphere.
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Then I may have lost the plot. I don't see how the point was dependent on the tech being actual ham radio, or Comstar's monopoly being transmission only helps the plausibility of neutrality (e.g. that risk isn't greater it's less), or other things.
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under the old descriptions of HPG's the way I always understood how it worked is that the HPG transmitter aimed in the general vicinity of the destination (typically a planet) but not too close, because of emp effects and then "fire" the message upon arrival al the receivers within range pick up the message, but without the correct decryption information they aren't able to understand the message(s) and sense comstar usually batches them there are megabytes (or more) of messages with each transmission.
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under the old descriptions of HPG's the way I always understood how it worked is that the HPG transmitter aimed in the general vicinity of the destination (typically a planet) but not too close, because of emp effects and then "fire" the message upon arrival al the receivers within range pick up the message, but without the correct decryption information they aren't able to understand the message(s) and sense comstar usually batches them there are megabytes (or more) of messages with each transmission.
What I could see is when HPGs are being used for live communication, the first signals sent include detailed coordinates of the sender, so the receiver knows where to better aim its reply. As the live communications continues, the receiver is detecting where inside the chamber it is receiving HPG signals, and includes those in its return message. This way the sender can constantly refine its coordinates to allow for planetary rotation as the live chat goes on. The first few communications pulses are the sender refining its targeting data (far enough not to affect the planet, but precise enough to get good data), and then the pulses arrive inside the sealed chamber.
(I.e. sender transmits several pulses and the first few are ~100,000 km away from the planet. The receiver sends back the coordinates so the sender can adjust its aim. The next are ~10000 km away from the planet and in the right area to avoid arriving within the planet, and the last few are ~1000 km away, vertical above the HPG station. Each time the receiver notes the coordinates of where they arrived relative to the Receiving Chamber, and sends those adjustments back. The final adjustment is from ~1000km away to inside the chamber, to avoid EMPing the local city. Like a sniper/spotter combo, but the spotter with the radio is sitting next to the target instead of next to the sniper. Depending on Comstar's abilities, this process might even be automated.)
For the Star League, the HPGs would have two set-ups on a planet, and send data back and forth using this sort of fine-tuning to get low ping rates (compared to the HPG pulse arriving into orbit and dispersing from there). Then you have the fall of the Star League, and Comstar has to make do with fewer HPGs available. So HPGs get set up into tree formats to only need 1 per planet, allowing the remaining HPGs to be allocated to more planets.
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Well the EMP effect is apparently only 1 km in size. So that should simplify the process.
Also,
If they were radio waves, It would have been stated in one of the several references, “they’re radio waves” instead of using language like “propagate in a similar manner to radio waves.”
“Appropriate equipment,” not oh, any ole receiver on hand. Several mentions in the sources of “receivers,” not recipients or targets or destinations.
And the only canon mention I can find it interception was by (pre-)ComStar itself.
Strategic Operations Pg.251: "While the “jump” involved
in sending the signal over many light-years carries with it all
the usual hyperspace issues, like I was talking about with emergence
wave detectors earlier, the actual signal is a conventional
electromagnetic signal, generally a radio frequency burst.
Think about that a second: you don’t need an HPG to receive
an HPG message. You need a radio."
&
"While the radio signals from an arriving HPG burst can
propagate up to 4AU from the arrival point..."
Amongst other things I am now somewhat concerned about the level of funding for intelligence operations in the Inner Sphere, Pg.210: "...attempting to tap into interstellar communications. Fortunately for the Great Houses, this problem is not insurmountable.
The Kearny-Fuchida principles at the core of HPG technology
involve a degree of electromagnetic propagation that sufficiently
well equipped agencies can listen to, though this is still extremely
limited;"
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IR is electromagnetic. Just you need different detectors. Wave/particle duality, etc etc.
It might be pulsed muons, it might be scatters of neutrinos, it could be some exotic particle/wave phenomenon our science hasn't discovered (spin states in quantumly entangled pairs? Probably not). Pay no attention to the physics behind the curtain ;)
W.
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Detecting many particles requires rather elaborate detectors. Like neutrinos are really hard to see, and that is a physical limitation, advanced tech doesn't really make it much easier as increased sensitivity means more sensitive to noise, meaning more shielding is required, or something like that. At least, i'm pretty sure advanced tech (especially BT's "low-tech") won't make neutrino detectors pocket-size, even if they're better and smaller than existing ones.
Regardless of particles involved, this is part of the reason i assume HPG receiver doesn't utilize normal physical device but rather something that scans hyperspace (ie it works by space magic and thus any-size and price detectors can be justified), basically hyperspace radio that just happens to be short-ranged for whatever reason. Justifies "sufficiently well equipped" easily, while not being so complex as to be really limited to ComStar necessarily. (Interestingly, this could easily tie to the Blackboxes, which have limited data rate and signal speed, they could be spin-off from receiver technology. Remember Blackboxes can send and receive, and they are rather small though probably rather expensive and possibly difficult to manufacture.)
Unfortunately that Strategic Ops bit is quite clear-cut, unless we assume the in-universe text isn't necessarily accurate, whether as a simplification or due to in-universe speaker being mistaken. Of course, by strict reading it doesn't specify what kind of radio, just that HPG isn't needed...
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Still glad to know I wasn't completely out in left field (at least until that bit in StratOps gets retconned...).
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On the one hand i'd actually read pg.210 as some kind of Van Eck style eaves dropping on the transmitting HPG to resolve the seeming contradiction on the other i'm head canoning all of this out anyway. Cray's insight doesn't go far enough for me.
[This thread]: And what did you see, Von Rohrs? What did you see?
[VR]: Catgirls. The Catgirls were screaming.
[This thread]: You still wake up sometimes, don't you? You wake up in the dark and hear the screaming of the Catgirls.