Mosquito Hawk Attack Helicopter

[Black_Knyght]

The Mosquito Hawk light attack helicopter was specifically designed as a anti-mech harasser unit. To that end it mounts a Rotary AC2, to snipe at the cockpits of enemy battlemechs, and a pair of SRM-4's specially fitted to fire Inferno ammunition. For additional firepower when the opportunity presents itself, a pair of Series-10 Rocket Launchers with five shots each are mounted. The Mosquito Hawk has a top speed of 96.5 kph, and is as lightly armored as VTOLs tend to be. To compensate for the limited protection the Mosquito Hawk also mounts a Guardian ECM system intended to interfere with enemy C3 and targeting systems.

Mosquito Hawk Attack Helicopter

Code: [Select]

Mosquito Hawk Attack Helicopter
IS Light VTOL
30 tons 
BV: 659
Cost: 1,683,000 C-bills

Movement: 6/9 (VTOL)
Engine: 40

Internal: 15
Armor: 72
                     Internal    Armor
--------------------------------------
Front                       3       23
Right                       3       18
Left                        3       18
Rear                        3       11
Rotor                       3        2

Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
Rotary AC/2                     FR     1
Rocket Launcher 10              RS     3
SRM 4                           RS     3
Rocket Launcher 10              LS     3
SRM 4                           LS     3

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
Rotary AC/2 Ammo                BD    45
SRM 4 Inferno Ammo              BD    25
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1
RL 10 Ammo                     None    1

Equipment                      Loc
----------------------------------
Guardian ECM Suite              BD

[Cannonshop]

why are you intent on distribution of ECM sets and rotary autocannons to your opponents as salvage? are you hoping to make a nice barbecue pit for some aircrew that pissed you off to die in?

VTOL: It doesn't work like 'Mechs or tanks.

Two core flaws in your design:

1. 6/9 speed on a VTOL.  this is a flaw unless you're doing double-blind against urbanmechs...in mud...without terrain.

2. 30 ton weight devoted to enough firepower to guarantee being slaughtered by something that not only outranges you, but isn't reliant on Active Probes(tm) or C3 nets to hit you.

1 and 2 go together.  There's really only one 30 tonner in canon that isn't catastrophically bad design work-the Pinto-and that's only mediocrity that saves it. (Long range missile rack and the airspeed.)

Here's what happens with a 6/9 VTOL: either you're too slow to rack up TMM and die to regular, non-enhanced LRM fire while wallowing into range, or, you become one with the terrain on repeated PSR's as you try to flank and terrain screen while missing the bulk of your shots. 

6/9 is 'okay' for a hovertank, it can lose motive systems and still contribute to the fight.  VTOLs lose theirs, they Crash.  (ususally killing aircrew and detonating ammo or explosive weapons to destroy facings....)

Total Warfare Minimum useful speed is 9/14-enough to be hard-to-hit for most weapons even flying 'in the clear' above terrain, while making a turn to bring weapons to bear (think on the narrow arcs vehicles have to cope with).

BMR is worse-10/15, because BMR has more lethal locations and no rotor damage nerf.

[Sabelkatten]

Also, those missiles sure as heck aren't side-firing... ;)

[Giovanni Blasini]

Wait, Rocket Launcher 10s are single-shot weapons. They don't have ammo.

[Black_Knyght]

ROFLMAO - Ah well, it was my FIRST attempt at working up a VTOL, which I only did because that pic looked sooooo damn cool.

Too bad VTOLs in Battletech don't even remotely work like Real World VTOLS. Obviously no one writing rules has ever seen the real thing in combat.

I personally managed to see Apaches in action in Desert Storm, AND against Iraqi Republican Guard Shilka's no less! NOT even close to how Battletech paints them, and NOT even remotely a fair fight for the Republican Guard units they thoroughly pasted.

[DOC_Agren]

Why are the SRM and RL facing Left and Right Arc, not forward facing?

[worktroll]

I suspect BK's making the classic, but unfortunately incorrect, assumption that weapons in RL are on the right side of the vehicle, when in fact it means they fire into the side arc. Stub-wing-mounted weapons, such as depicted, should always be placed in the Front, because it's about the arc they fire into.

Mind you, there's at least one canon design, favoured by the Star League, which makes the same assumption ;)

BK, remember in BT, every weapon is effective AA. In Desert Storm, choppers routinely carried weapons outranging the light cannon used for AA. Imagine the lifespan of a chopper if every tank's main gun could effectively track and hit them routinely. The crew quality of the Republican Guards, also, didn't help.

[Liam's Ghost]

Not to mention armor is magic. Even if the gunship hits first, odds are good the enemy will still be able to shoot back.

The rotary autocannon kind of tickles my fancy though. I usually prefer something with more range, BUT multiple impacts increase the chance of generating motive system damage. It's not a pure kill, but robbing vehicles of their ability to run is a handy way to soften them up for other units.

[Cannonshop]

ROFLMAO - Ah well, it was my FIRST attempt at working up a VTOL, which I only did because that pic looked sooooo damn cool.

Too bad VTOLs in Battletech don't even remotely work like Real World VTOLS. Obviously no one writing rules has ever seen the real thing in combat.

I personally managed to see Apaches in action in Desert Storm, AND against Iraqi Republican Guard Shilka's no less! NOT even close to how Battletech paints them, and NOT even remotely a fair fight for the Republican Guard units they thoroughly pasted.

in some ways they do-you can drop even an Apache with an M-16 if you hit the base of the rotors with a burst of bullets.  *(it's only good fortune and poor marksmen that prevent that from being routine) and the SA-7 was quite lethal against the Hind, while SA-14 and Stinger were not just quite lethal, they were the reason the Soviets bugged out of Af'stan.

The performance you speak of vs. the Iraqis comes from three things:

1. Technological disparity-the Apache was a late seventies design, the Shilka (however it's spelled) is late 40's tech.
2. Doctrine-the Apache was designed and the doctrine also designed, to counter Soviet armor in Europe, while Iraqi doctrine was a middle-eastern downgrade of that same doctrine, but in the sand.
3. Training.  proportional to military size (aka man-for-man) U.S. personnel had more, and more extensive,and a higher per dollar percentage, of training than their Iraqi counterparts.  (that is, not only were our guys better financed and equipped, but a larger chunk of every military dollar was spent on training them, than was the case with the Republican Guard or Iraqi forces in general.)

Basically what I'm saying, is even if you were to hypothetically swap the equipment, the RG's would likely still have lost in those engagements-training or 'man factors' remain the breakpoint in determining engagements of that sort.  (Witness the disproportionate impact of Israeli troops vs. their Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian, etc. neighbours in the 56, 67, 73, and 80's wars...)

BT actually softened reality for VTOL forces with Total Warfare-the old "Lethal" rules in BMR were actually closer to what happens when equipment quality and personnel factors are equal.  Total Warfare (and Maxtech before it) softened damage against VTOL units to make more of them viable-in BMR, the Yellowjacket was a craft that was basically a way to give an easy kill to the other side so they don't feel so bad about losing, and relatively FEW designs in the game (canon designs) were even viable, much less good until that change was implemented.

[VhenRa]

3. Training.  proportional to military size (aka man-for-man) U.S. personnel had more, and more extensive,and a higher per dollar percentage, of training than their Iraqi counterparts.  (that is, not only were our guys better financed and equipped, but a larger chunk of every military dollar was spent on training them, than was the case with the Republican Guard or Iraqi forces in general.)

Basically what I'm saying, is even if you were to hypothetically swap the equipment, the RG's would likely still have lost in those engagements-training or 'man factors' remain the breakpoint in determining engagements of that sort.  (Witness the disproportionate impact of Israeli troops vs. their Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian, etc. neighbours in the 56, 67, 73, and 80's wars...)

There is people who argue that the Iraqis would have lost... had they been facing 1940s German Army. These are the idiots who when being shelled by artillery... would ask their brigade commander what to do, he would ask his divisional commander... and the divisional commander would ask the corps commander. These are the idiots... who got themselves encircled and wiped out in engagements in the Iran-Iraq War... when in full mechanized units while the Iranians were light infantry. [/rant]

Sorry. Yeah, they don't really reflect reality.

[Black_Knyght]

Just a few points I CAN make, from a first-hand combat experience perspective:

1) Republican Guard units were NOT quite as under-trained and ineffective as pro-USA news reports made them out to be here. Too often poorly trained and equipped Iraqi regular army forces were labelled "RG". The RG was pretty well maintained and trained, and got the best equipment available to the Iraqis. By the end of the Storm pretty much the ONLY units left operational were RG units. At least until the Road of Death...

2) Those damned Shilkas were NOT remnant 1940's technology, although they were late 1970s/early 1980s technology. And they were used to pretty damn good effect as both anti-aircraft and fire-support in the Storm. After the SAM sites were pasted, it was the Shilka's that shot down a number of coalition aircraft, though they were often reported as being downed by "malfunctions" or "mechanical failure" back in the States. The Shilka's four 23 mm guns and radar-targeting system are extremely effective and were considered a real threat during the Storm.

3) I myself saw the Shilka rounds "sparking" off of some of the Apaches, which shook under the barrage but didn't fold up like butterflies. And from a first-hand perspective I'd have to say any M-16 fire that could bring down an Apache would have to be an act of God, because it's seriously unlikely to happen in the hand of any ground troop firing at one. From a "realistic" perspective (which I know doesn't translate well into BT) the way certain guns and missiles work don't really reflect their RW counter-parts. IF they have one at all.

Other than that, I did really botch this helicopter :))

And Work Troll is dead on in his assessment of my placement errors. I was using MegaMekLab, and the game rules involved weren't that clear to someone new to designing helicopters with it.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I haven't found MegaMekLab to be terribly clear in much of anything, sadly.  I frequently find the interface to be an exercise in frustration.

[Black_Knyght]

Yeah, I'm a MUCH bigger fan of the interface in HeavyMetalPro, but it's unfortunately badly outdated and I don't know how to fix that.

I'm pretty sure my MegaMekLab is out of date too, though rumor has it there's a newer or updated version out there.

[Liam's Ghost]

Megameklab is actually the most updated of the three most popular design programs (Megameklab, solaris skunk werks, the heavy metal series). It's also the only one currently being worked on. It's... not my favorite, but it's the closest to being current and complete.

[VhenRa]

1) Republican Guard units were NOT quite as under-trained and ineffective as pro-USA news reports made them out to be here. Too often poorly trained and equipped Iraqi regular army forces were labelled "RG". The RG was pretty well maintained and trained, and got the best equipment available to the Iraqis. By the end of the Storm pretty much the ONLY units left operational were RG units. At least until the Road of Death...

Yeah. They were capable of battalion level attacks in some cases. Still couldn't fight at regimental/brigade levels but what do you expect from Iraqis. This is the army that went into Iran outnumbering the Iranians in every single aspect, (artillery, troops, tanks), outclassing them in equipment... and still managed to somehow screw it up so badly it took them 8 years to end it.

You should read some of the after action stuff on the Iraqi forces.


And then there was the Saudis. Who threw a Brigade at a Battalion of Iraqis, with US providing CAS and other intel support and such... and it still resulted in a phyric victory for the Saudis. Said Brigade a few days earlier had fled in terror of an Iraqi unit assaulting their position... that it outnumbered by a massive degree.

[Black_Knyght]

You should read some of the after action stuff on the Iraqi forces.

I have absolutely no need to do that at all.  8)

I was there (1st Marine Division), from day one to the end, and I witnessed it all first-hand. Even have the scars to prove it  ;)

[Cannonshop]

I have absolutely no need to do that at all.  8)

I was there (1st Marine Division), from day one to the end, and I witnessed it all first-hand. Even have the scars to prove it  ;)

chill, dude, you're not only not the only vet here, but not the only vet of Desert Storm here.  I would even suspect we retain a few formerly active Marines of the correct vintage.

Though, tbh, we have lost most of our Vietnam vets-either GAFIATED or died, and there are a few of the kids around too-Afghanistan, Iraq mark II, etc. lurkiing about now that weren't out of grade school when I was playtesting for FANPRO.

So deep breaths, okay?

Here's the deal: 30th Century isn't 21st or 20th century.  Shit we couldn't do (and still can't do) is pretty common-like coherent energy weapons that don't require an eighteen-wheeler to power.

The subject of your design: presuming the game-rules reflect rough estimates of the setting, on a consistent basis, your design is inherently flawed-much as another design (The Yellowjacket) is inherently flawed-both go off of a false premise-that 6/9 (aka around a 45 MPH cruise with a bump up to around 70 for short bursts) is sufficient for an aircraft on a "modern" Battletech battlefield where people are slinging fifth-ton lumps of nickel-iron at hypersonic speeds, flaying out with multi-gigawatt laser beams, and the typical 105mm cannon fires five round bursts.

Here's your problem: armor is good enough in this setting that something like a Hellfire basically chips armor plates, but you're doing a rotorcraft-which means small, fragile connectors holding an armor plated rotor blade.  Mass, materials and such apply.  VTOLs can't rely on armor plate to survive-they have to be fast, fast not only to get into position, but to screen behind terrain-because if they aren't fast, they are dead-either by enemy action, or because the side-loads on the rotating lift assembly (or however you fluff it) are high enough to DRAAAAG you into contact with Cumulogranitic Formations (aka, deconstructive lithobraking against a hillside, building, or other obstacle.)

get it? the rules give a very abstracted, rough equivalency of the actual conditions, but those rough equivalencies are like the rough equivalencies necessary to determine that the Renault tankettes of WWI weren't in any way sufficient for the battlefield of Kursk in WWII.

(and of course, that tank designs and tactics that were perfectly viable in 1942 weren't, by 1990.)  Same situation with VTOL craft in BT versus AH-1s and AH-64's in 1990.

You're trying to apply 1990/91 field conditions to 3065, and it doesn't work.

The similarities are more cosmetic than structural.  SOME parts work the same-terrain screening at low level to avoid fire, for instance-but the conditions even there, are different-you have to get closer, slant-range doesn't enhance weapons penetration, the enemy DOES look up since Battlemechs are tall and they aren't running thinner armor on the roof than the glacis plate.  (which, btw, the bulk of modern tank designs do-the M-1's roof is about an inch and a half to two inches, ditto for the T-72, which is why 30mm from an A-10 will buzzsaw a tank almost in half where it would bounce off from a fixed gun position on the ground. Angularity doesn't matter in Battletech.)

what it means for your design, is that it's obselete before it left the drawing board-it was fine for 1990 to 2010, but it's NOT fine for 3025, or 2750, or 2350, much less 3065 or later.

[Black_Knyght]

chill, dude, you're not only not the only vet here, but not the only vet of Desert Storm here.  I would even suspect we retain a few formerly active Marines of the correct vintage.

So deep breaths, okay?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, easy there Tex!

Just to be clear here, YOU are the one over-reacting here, not ME. [tickedoff]

I didn't mean ANYTHING hostile, upset, or stressed-out by my comment, AT ALL  ;). I was actually trying to make a light-hearted comment that since I had been THERE real-time I didn't need to read some after-action reports written by an arm-chair quarterback sitting stateside at the time. I've seen so many "expert commentaries" on the Storm that get key details wrong but run with it anyway.

Like a fair number of stories about RG combat units in the Storm that actually clearly show worn-out regulars (who didn't want that fight but were forced to be in it against an enemy they KNEW was going to kick their ass). Hell, the Regulars they show as RG couldn't surrender fast enough, and were surrendering in entire units! So much so that the RG overseers started shooting them, until the Regulars started tossing the overseers into the fire.

And truth be told, given that Battletech is a wargame, I'd be amazed if I actually was the only combat vet around. Much less from the Storm. I'm sure there are more than a few military around here.

So just to reiterate - Wasn't upset, just trying to be flippant  O0

[Black_Knyght]

BTW - I get the detailed breakdown but as I said this was my FIRST attempt at working up a VTOL, which I only did because that pic looked sooooo damn cool.

NOTHING about Battletech holds much resemblance to anything real world, so honestly as much as we might try to "legitimize" one thing or another all we're really doing is trying to make a make-believe wargame sound more realistic for our own sense of satisfaction.

For example, if modern VTOLs were as wimpy as the ones in Battletech they wouldn't be the major threats they are on the modern battlefield. All you'd need to do to make them go away is spray them with a .50 cal or two and call it a day.  ;) O0

[Cannonshop]

BTW - I get the detailed breakdown but as I said this was my FIRST attempt at working up a VTOL, which I only did because that pic looked sooooo damn cool.

NOTHING about Battletech holds much resemblance to anything real world, so honestly as much as we might try to "legitimize" one thing or another all we're really doing is trying to make a make-believe wargame sound more realistic for our own sense of satisfaction.

For example, if modern VTOLs were as wimpy as the ones in Battletech they wouldn't be the major threats they are on the modern battlefield. All you'd need to do to make them go away is spray them with a .50 cal or two and call it a day.  ;) O0

well, for a first attempt, you hit the usuals, which isn't a mark against you.

I have an idea...

Let's take a look at your picture, and work up from there...

alright.  You're packing a lot of ordinance on that frame for an airspeed that isn't workable.  suggestion:

Rebalance your loadout.  Two 4-packs might look cool, but you don't need them.  Your "Long gun" puts you at AC/5 ranges-which works for tanks but doesn't give you enough reach for something as inherently fragile to hits in the game, as a VTOL.

so...here's my suggestions. (You can tell me to stuff it if you like, I won't mind.)

we'll begin with the obvious-your design needs to go on a diet.

Code: [Select]

  BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
                      VALIDATED

Type/Model:    Untitled
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 3060
Config:        V.T.O.L.
Rules:         Level 3, Standard design

Mass:          25 tons
Power Plant:   85 DAV Fusion
Cruise Speed:  97.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 151.2 km/h
Armor Type:    Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:     
  1 LRM 5
  1 SRM 2
  1 Large Laser
  3 Rocket Launcher 10s
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Untitled
Mass:          25 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  15 pts Standard               0      2.50
Engine:        85 Fusion                     0      2.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment:          0      1.50
    Cruise MP:   9
     Flank MP:  14
Heat Sinks:     10 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      1.50
Crew: 2 Members                              0       .00
Rotor Equipment:  Main/Tail Rotors           0      2.50
Armor Factor:   54 pts Ferro-Fibrous         2      3.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     3         18
   Left / Right Sides:        3      13/13
   Rear:                      3          8
   Rotor:                     3          2

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 LRM 5                  Front    0   24     2      3.00
1 SRM 2                  Front    0   50     2      2.00
1 Large Laser            Front    8          1      5.00
3 Rocket Launcher 10s    Front    0          3      1.50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                           8         10     25.00
Items & Tons Left:                           0       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        1,070,056 C-Bills
Battle Value:      1,097
Cost per BV:       975.44
Weapon Value:      235 / 235 (Ratio = .21 / .21)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 34;  MRDmg = 21;  LRDmg = 7
BattleForce2:      MP: 9V,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 2
                   Damage PB/M/L: 1/2/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: VA;  Point Value: 11
                   Specials: if

now, for the specifics...

Yes, you can't one-shot BA with two infernoes-but you CAN crit a tank with a two-pack under Total Warfare's rules.  The rocket pods are 'unbalanced' layout, but that kinda works with the LRM-5 and the SRM pack, and you have a heat-neutral hole opener at roughly the same engagement ranges you had with the RAC, but since RAC can't use specialty munitions either, it's not a loss.

9/14 is perfectly adequate in Total Warfare rules, and an LRM-5 gives you a few mission-specific options you can load out with before a battle or match; 

Thunder (minefields)
Swarm (if you're under a ruleset that permits it)
Smoke (Great for laying down cover for the units you're supporting)
FRAG-for killing infantry in the open.

In Battletech VTOLs, like Tanks, work better in groups of 2 or 4, that group in turn working with something else.  (think: Attack choppers supporting armor at Fulda.)

The rocket pods are, of course, for hitting targets of opportunity.  (say, getting in the rear of that Hellbringer, unload the rocket pods and fire your laser.)

Pair this with a 'stocker' like the H-7 (base model, but load infernoes and Precision ammo) and you can probably get your opponent to throw the table over in frustration.

In the game, key tactic for a VTOL is to stay in motion, and avoid flanking whenever possible unless you're in very, very clear skies against an enemy with no ADA specialties (No standard ACs with Flak, no LBX, no HAG.)

the reason is to exploit the "I don't have to flank" numbers for your gunnery and TMM-a high TMM, and low to no penalties for cruising makes you a tough target he has to, in turn, choose between standing still to hit you, or missing you on 11 or worse. (lowest you ever want to let him have minus bonuses for weapon type, is 9.)

25 tons is the "Apache range" for VTOL in Battletech-a 25 tonner moving at 10/15 is better.  (22 is, of course, the optimum, but you start REALLY shedding firepower and crash protection at that range.  The original H-7 got away with it by using fractional accounting, which is now verboten because of too many innumerates in the community.)

30 tons, you end up sacrificing everything that makes a VTOL "Good".  (there's..what, ONE? VTOL that's even adequate at that weight-the Pinto.)