How are LAMs thought of by the IS?

[Iceweb]

A while back I asked what the inner sphere thinks of the Hunchy IIC, now I was wondering what the IS thinks of LAMs. 

A WOB commander operating during the Jihad was approached by a man with an interesting battle ROM.  It showed a modified wasp suddenly transforming in the middle of the fight.  He was then told that the owner of that machine had hit some hard times, and could be persuaded to sell, if the price was right.   

Now that commander didn't exactly need a scout mech, but is the lure of being able to claim you have a LAM in your reserves worth anything?  How hard is it for a standard mek jockey to learn to pilot a LAM?  Is there any type of contact that a merc would be able to use, you want my LAM doing that, over some other bidder?   

I know the clans think of LAMs as a dead tech that they aren't interested in, but is there a mystique in the sphere of the height of the Star League. 

[Daryk]

The main problem is that a MechWarrior without flight training is just the same as any random person off the street without flight training: they need to go to flight school, and that's anything but short or easy.

[glitterboy2098]

A while back I asked what the inner sphere thinks of the Hunchy IIC, now I was wondering what the IS thinks of LAMs. 

A WOB commander operating during the Jihad was approached by a man with an interesting battle ROM.  It showed a modified wasp suddenly transforming in the middle of the fight.  He was then told that the owner of that machine had hit some hard times, and could be persuaded to sell, if the price was right.   

Now that commander didn't exactly need a scout mech, but is the lure of being able to claim you have a LAM in your reserves worth anything?  How hard is it for a standard mek jockey to learn to pilot a LAM?  Is there any type of contact that a merc would be able to use, you want my LAM doing that, over some other bidder?   

I know the clans think of LAMs as a dead tech that they aren't interested in, but is there a mystique in the sphere of the height of the Star League.

the WOB actually put the Royal Wasp LAM back into production (even developing a new and improved variant) and designed their own LAM's. so the WoB would probably not be terribly interested in an aging succession wars model.

[AlphaMirage]

WoB used LAMs and was the last Canon faction to do so this I think they would be received poorly.

For all the supposed power of a LAM they are just not that impressive or available in enough quantity to be very effective or their parts easy to come by in universe.

Let it die on the pile of abandoned weapon tech

[Daryk]

Eh... it's hard, not impossible...

[dgorsman]

If someone from WoB could get a good deal, they might consider turning it around as a contract bonus to entice certain mercenary units into employment.

[Empyrus]

The LAMs were excellent scouts and good raiders. But other than that, they're largely useless (because comparable ASF or 'Mech is better at the intended roles), and smaller armies of the Great Houses (compared to the SLDF) can't really afford that specialized equipment, or need it.
As noted, training is an issue. Dual-training pilots takes a lot of time and resources. Implicitly not all people can be trained as MechWarriors, and i'd imagine it is a small subset of MechWarriors who also make for reasonable ASF pilots.
The Succession Wars were not kind on industry, especially for stuff like LAMs. Making them a logistical burden.
That the Word of Blake used LAMs probably doesn't even register to most (doesn't help that even among them these things were rare really), after all a lot of Blakist equipment got repurposed, with only certain signature stuff like the Celestials that got truly bad rep.

Ultimately, a dead-end technology. It is pretty telling that even recovered of LosTech never put LAMs back into production. They weren't important or desired.

[Daryk]

I think that was more driven by a certain lawsuit than popularity among the fans...

[Empyrus]

I think that was more driven by a certain lawsuit than popularity among the fans...

I'm not commenting on real worlds stuff (because that never ever ends well), only in-universe POV.

[Daryk]

Irece was making spare parts throughout the Succession Wars.

[Empyrus]

And only spare parts. Its industry wasn't expanded to manufacturing LAMs themselves when tech was being recovered. No one built new factories, or even new spare part manufacturing.

Only WoB did, and that was in pursuit of wunderwaffe, something miraculous to change the course of the war, ultimately being pure waste of resources.

And even post-Jihad when everyone is crazy with all the new tech, no one bothers with LAMs.

[Daryk]

Again, that was an out of character decision by TPTB at the time.

[smcwatt]

The FWL used to have battalions of them. The Marik Guard used to be 75% LAMs, but the Lyrans ROFL-stomped them on Callison in the Fourth War (caught them on the runway), so not so much after that.

SMc.

[phoenixalpha]

In game, they are in a bad place - not good enough against a comparable mech or ASF so they would get trashed in a 1-1 fight. Out of game - they would be amazing units but only for special forces. They would be the ultimate strike unit. The tactical flexibility would be amazing. Think real world paratroop units. They lack the might of a standard unit as they cant carry the same equipment as a standard military unit, but they can deploy anywhere at short notice much like a LAM.

[Empyrus]

Think real world paratroop units.

Amusing comparison, since paratroops kinda went out of style. That is not to say they're useless, it is just difficult to make use of them.

[phoenixalpha]

Amusing comparison, since paratroops kinda went out of style. That is not to say they're useless, it is just difficult to make use of them.

Ok then... maybe we'll come up to date a bit then... helicopter or fixed wing aircraft deployed troops.

[Syzyx]

Trying to ignore player bias on the issue, canon details seem to show the view of LAMs and their desirability shift in the IS over time.

During the 3rd SW a few LAMs were worth risking entire battalions to claim. However the same can be said of a company or two of Spiders.

During the 4th SW LAMs appear to be going out of style. They are rarely mentioned, but when they are it is with high regard.

Thereafter LAMs pretty much fall off the radar altogether. This seems to coincide with the proliferation of recovered technology.

In my mind this makes sense as things shifted from chivalric style limited war of the 3rd SW back to the Hegemony style state wars of the past. Individual heroes or small players with big impact stopped being the pinnacle and masses of efficient units took their place as the go-to paradigm.

[grimlock1]

The FWL used to have battalions of them. The Marik Guard used to be 75% LAMs, but the Lyrans ROFL-stomped them on Callison in the Fourth War (caught them on the runway), so not so much after that.

SMc.

That says more about the Lyran's planning and the Free Worlder's lack thereof, than it does about the effectivness of LAMs.

In my limited experience, they are great for generating or threatening a flanking maneuver, on 2x2 maps, but only if you have a couple.

[Daryk]

*snip*
This seems to coincide with the proliferation of recovered technology.
*snip*

It coincides with the aforementioned RL problems at the time.

[Empyrus]

It coincides with the aforementioned RL problems at the time.

Why keep mentioning that since that's done and can't be done anything about, and the thread question is about how the IS sees them?

There's no indications whatsoever anyone within the Inner Sphere was keen on retaining LAMs during the tech renaissance of 3030s and onward.

[massey]

Rule-wise, LAMs have always been either completely broken, or total crap.  There is no in between.  I didn't know anyone who wanted to play with them, because there really wasn't a way to balance them.  While they were cool, they weren't really fun.  Originally LAMs could carry bombs and used the old strafing rules.  They weren't so hot against aerospace fighters, but if your opponent didn't have them?  They were monsters.

TPTB tried to throw LAM-lovers a bone by bringing them back for the Jihad, but then pissed the same group off by saying "oh yeah, LAMs were never really very good".  This went against basically all the previous background information, when they were seen as super valuable and wonderful, and rare but not actually lostech.  I understand the real world reasons for it, but the explanation seemed forced.  It is what it is.

In-universe, the way to use LAMs is with overwhelming concentration of force.  An Overlord dropship carries 36 mechs and 6 aerospace fighters.  Or it can carry 6 aerospace fighters and 36 kinda crappy aerospace fighters.  And with that kind of force you can blast right through the air defenses that would normally be used against a Battalion.  You can redeploy anywhere you need to, avoid the bulk of your opponent's forces, and pick them apart at your leisure.

A Phoenix Hawk LAM is going to get blasted to pieces by a Warhammer or a Marauder (unless you really abuse the Airmech rules).  But 4 Phoenix Hawks at once against that Warhammer will chew it to bits.  Unfortunately, we're back to square one, because that's not going to make for a fun game.  LAMs really come into their own when you consider strategic movement and positioning of large units.  That's just not Battletech though.  Battleforce maybe, but not Battletech.

So what do the people of the Inner Sphere think of them?  An amazing piece of technology, but one that's best in groups.  They'll probably look to sell it to somebody who specializes in that sort of thing.

[Daryk]

Why keep mentioning that since that's done and can't be done anything about, and the thread question is about how the IS sees them?

There's no indications whatsoever anyone within the Inner Sphere was keen on retaining LAMs during the tech renaissance of 3030s and onward.

Because the only reason for that was RL concerns.  Too much farther down this road lies thread lock...

[Major Headcase]

I would totally  have a blast playing a company of Urbanmech LAMs... I would paint them all like rusty old UPS trucks and name the unit "Special Delivery" and infiltrate your city unseen...  :D

[Giovanni Blasini]

LAMs excel as raiders and special operations units, even under new rules.  The problem is that after the Third Succession War, the scale of warfare increased dramatically, where during the Fourth Succession Wars you had multi-regiment units beating the snot out of one another.  That's not a role conducive to the LAM, so I could see them ending up as just another specialty unit assigned at the RCT level.

[phoenixalpha]

Didnt Wolf's Dragoons have one assigned to their command lance (ie the command lance of the whole 5+ regiments) circa 4th SW?

[grimlock1]

A Phoenix Hawk LAM is going to get blasted to pieces by a Warhammer or a Marauder (unless you really abuse the Airmech rules).  But 4 Phoenix Hawks at once against that Warhammer will chew it to bits.  Unfortunately, we're back to square one, because that's not going to make for a fun game. 

The same is true if you dropped stock P-Hawks into those same match ups.

[Daryk]

The Dragoons had a bunch of LAMs all through their TO&E.

[massey]

The same is true if you dropped stock P-Hawks into those same match ups.

100% true.  The difference is that LAMs can cover an enormous amount of ground very quickly.  In fact they can do it so fast that normal Battlemechs can't respond.

Large formations of Battlemechs wouldn't all hang out on the same mapsheet.  A Battalion would probably be spread out over several miles, more if you include their scouting forces.  What a group of LAMs can do is engage them piecemeal, before reinforcements can arrive.  You don't fight company vs company.  You fight company vs lance, one after the other.

[Warship]

I always envisioned them as being used by Special Forces, especially Death Commandos.

[glitterboy2098]

LAMs excel as raiders and special operations units, even under new rules.  The problem is that after the Third Succession War, the scale of warfare increased dramatically, where during the Fourth Succession Wars you had multi-regiment units beating the snot out of one another.  That's not a role conducive to the LAM, so I could see them ending up as just another specialty unit assigned at the RCT level.

agreed. in warfare where multiple regiments are going at it, a LAM's fragility makes it only really useful for very limited roles in hitting less guarded enemy facilities, or general recon. (which apparently is how the Star League employed them)

but between the end of the 2nd war and the start of the 4th, when warfare was largely an extended series of small unit raids, they would be more useful. when your targets generally only have maybe a company of mechs scattered around in lance sized lots a planet and a few battalions of infantry supporting them, and your objective is largely to damage or steal logistical targets, the mobility and flexibility of a LAM would be much more useful.

the redevelopment of advanced tech didn't help them either. their opponent machines suddenly developed 50% to twice the armor, firepower, and/or speed, using technologies they themselves largely could not exploit (XL's, endo, ferro, etc), ad then the arrival of the clans where one mech had nearly the same combat ability as a full lance of succession wars machines made them even more vulnerable.
the WoB did their best to update them during the jihad but even with clan tech weaponry the results were still pretty limited.