Author Topic: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?  (Read 23306 times)

Requiem_for_a_Moth

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Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« on: 24 February 2011, 12:42:36 »
BV is designed to estimate a unit's effectiveness in battle, but it can't really reflect how well all the parts work together. As a result, a mech with more BV than another is not necessarily that much more effective in a fight.

So I'm curious: what mechs are the best/worse deals for their BV in everyone's opinion?

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Yeti

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #1 on: 24 February 2011, 13:19:59 »
Some units i think are very good for their BV:

Urbanmech UMR-60 (BV 504): most of the units it would face at ~500 BV do not have enough armor/IS to survive multiple hits by an ac/10

Charger CGR-1L (980 BV): it has the BV, armor and firepower of a light mech, but still kicks for 16 points, which can cripple many light mechs with a single hit

Without choosing specific units, there are some pieces of equipment that IMO cost too much BV, therefore units mounting tend to go into the worse mech per BV list:

RAC5, MRM: both have a very high damage, but IMO get not properly discounted for their drawbacks (jamming the RAC, +1 hit on the mrm)

MASC/TSM: both are treated as always providing their bonus

c3 (with >4 units networked): paying a +5% per unit networked means that fielding a full company network is one of the easiest ways inflate your BV

House Davie Merc

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #2 on: 24 February 2011, 13:20:58 »
3025 era best deals ?

The Stalker has to be one of them .

Worst ?

Just about anything with an improved pilot .

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #3 on: 24 February 2011, 13:49:36 »
Its been argued quite a bit, every difrent way.  I personaly think that while BV1 was quite notorious for having a few very excelent values, BV2 tends to be quite good.  Armor is still probably valued too low, so mechs with more armor and less guns tend to be the better values, while over armed mechs tend not to be, but its a lot less than it once was.

In general, the key to being a good player and a good bidder is getting your money's worth.  Jump jets are pricy, so people often point to ground bound mechs as good values, since they offer more guns for less BV.  But, if you've been clever enough to select terrain that will favor jumping mechs, by being broken, or by forcing close quarters combat, or by having plenty of water features, or by what ever other reason, then the side that takes 'poor value' jumpers will tend to win.  If you take C3, which is very pricy, especaly at larger levels, then you'd better have mechs and tactics and a map that will let you put your C3 net into action (and hope you're opponent is not a hot hand with his ECM mechs).  Better pilots, mentioned below, do drive cost up, and quickly.  Even for me, as a proponent of better pilots, by the time you get to 0/0 its pretty qustionable.  But, if you've got fast mechs and an open map and you can keep the TNs generaly very high, then you can really get some excelent value out of better pilots, and a force that takes the field with half the amount of power and armor can win by hitting four or five times as often, and turn what seems like a one sided route into quite the upset.

Its the skills to use what you've paid for, rather than getting good value, I think that is more key. 
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Lyran Archer

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #4 on: 24 February 2011, 13:55:50 »
ARC-5W Archer

Fantastic price:

At 1337 BV, it has 208 armour, 2 LRM 20s, 2 SRM 4s, and enough heat sinks to fire all weapons while running without generating a single point of heat. In a 6000 BV battle, I can have a whole lance of these Archers with infantry or vehicle support. The lack of Artemis IV is actually a bonus for me because I prefer a mix of NARC and TAG missiles for indirect fire (the way Archers should be used - indirectly and en masse!).

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Neufeld

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #5 on: 24 February 2011, 15:49:20 »
For cheap:
The TR1 Wraith seems quite cheap at 1287 BV compared to several others in its weight class.

For expensive:
The GRN-D-04 Grand Crusader II is 2292 BV and has a quite anemic weapon setup for its cost. You get a Gunslinger or Cerberus for less than that.

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Adgar76

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #6 on: 24 February 2011, 16:14:25 »
Worst Mech per BV, my vote has to go to the Hellbringer Prime: 2654 BV for a mech with such a light armor, and that can't even fire its main guns without losing those MPs which make the difference between life and death, is just too much.
Not that it can't be effective, or taht i dislike Hellbringers ('id willingly field an A or B), but a Blood Asp Prime has the same BV; 'nuff said.

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #7 on: 24 February 2011, 19:01:52 »
Yeah, the terrible heat management and tissue-paper armor really make the Loki Prime a contender in this list.
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Nibs

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #8 on: 25 February 2011, 03:50:50 »
Yeah, the terrible heat management and tissue-paper armor really make the Loki Prime a contender in this list.

No surprise, really, considering it's unpopularity over the years. But it'll be fun to play with when the Box Set comes with it. Could be a good teaching tool for new players, myself included.

Caturix

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #9 on: 25 February 2011, 08:10:33 »
The Templar C is quite cheap for its effectiveness.

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Stockus13

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #10 on: 25 February 2011, 10:14:45 »
Cheap: Any Kingfisher config. I prefer the C. Tough as nails, and hits hard.

Expensive: as mentioned before the Hellbringer Prime.

Executioners are overpriced as well. I like the design, but not paying for the MASC...and the torso armor leaves something to be desired.

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #11 on: 25 February 2011, 11:21:41 »
The Hellbringer Prime has always been one of the worst offenders, though its not as bad as it was.  But, despite the famous story where the T Bolt killed three or four of them, just try running that on an open plain, and you'll see a Hellbringer Prime mow down a lance or company of old T Bolts.  It pays for range, accuracy, speed and power, and it saves on armor and heat (can you imagine the cost of a mech that had two TCed PPCs, the heat to use them, had good armor and moved 5/8?  It would be more than the similar but slower Dire Wolf C).  So the way to get your BV's worth is to use that range and power and accuracy, and use that speed to keep from getting hit.  I've played the Hellbringer a few times, and its tempting to dismiss it because its got such poor heat and armor, but its also hits like a mother loving hammer.  Its still not a great value, no, but its hardly such a poor value that you have to ignore it, unless you use it wrong.  And that can be said of even great units like the Archer or Demolisher or whatever.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #12 on: 25 February 2011, 11:56:11 »
It pays for range, accuracy, speed and power, and it saves on armor and heat (can you imagine the cost of a mech that had two TCed PPCs, the heat to use them, had good armor and moved 5/8?  It would be more than the similar but slower Dire Wolf C).

You mean the Karhu D?
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majesticmoose

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #13 on: 25 February 2011, 13:02:03 »
I don't know about best, but the Kraken "Bane" (original w/ all the UAC2s) is really over valued IMO.

The overall damage is OK, but the potential for jams to just mess up your day is pretty evil, and the fairly high minimum range really works against the unit, especially if jams happen early in the match.  It's those little things BV doesn't really cover IMO, the jamming.

I am Belch II

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #14 on: 25 February 2011, 13:05:31 »
Mechs that dont jump dont get the extra BV addition for the jumping. Some of the best BV mechs IMO don't jump, that means lots of firepower and armor.
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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #15 on: 26 February 2011, 15:20:58 »
Bang for the buck Inner Sphere: Longbow 13C, Dervish 9D, Men Shen, Bushwacker, Blitzkrieg, Nightsky, Templar, Stalker 7D, Marauder 7D and 5R, Hammerhands 5E (the AC10 variant with Improved Jump Jets), Longbow 12C, Sagittaire, Enfield, Enforcer, Phoenix Hawk 3PL, Argus 2D, Uziel 2S....

Bang for the buck Clan: Crossbow E, Battle Cobra Prime, Battle Cobra A, Dark Crow, Ursus, Rifleman IIC, Guillotine IIC, Nova Cat, Hoplite C, Champion C, Daishi Prime, Supernova 3 and 4, Kraken 3...

I hope this helps you!
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Akalabeth

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #16 on: 02 March 2011, 02:35:00 »
BV is designed to estimate a unit's effectiveness in battle, but it can't really reflect how well all the parts work together. As a result, a mech with more BV than another is not necessarily that much more effective in a fight.

So I'm curious: what mechs are the best/worse deals for their BV in everyone's opinion?

Worst: Crusader-3R

One thing BV does not account for is how many criticals are in a location besides ammo. There's a hell of a difference between ammo being 2 crits out of 8. And being 1 crit out of 1.

Neufeld

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #17 on: 02 March 2011, 04:10:22 »
Worst: Crusader-3R

One thing BV does not account for is how many criticals are in a location besides ammo. There's a hell of a difference between ammo being 2 crits out of 8. And being 1 crit out of 1.

And neither does BV give a penalty for leg-mounted weapons, which have the drawback of being blocked by partial cover and can not be fired when kicking.

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Aajav-Khan

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #18 on: 02 March 2011, 05:02:15 »
     Yeah. I have always wondered just how the heck any Crusaders could have survived the SW inferno. Considering their unfortunate tendency to blow up spectacularly in way that leaves very little ( if any ) salvage to scrape together anything resembling a mech.

      The Crusader is one of those mechs that in a campaign and/or RPG play gets assigned to That Pilot(TM). You know. The one that made passes at the Colonels daughter. Unless a Jagermech is available...

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #19 on: 02 March 2011, 12:27:36 »
Worst Mech per BV, my vote has to go to the Hellbringer Prime: 2654 BV for a mech with such a light armor, and that can't even fire its main guns without losing those MPs which make the difference between life and death, is just too much.
Not that it can't be effective, or taht i dislike Hellbringers ('id willingly field an A or B), but a Blood Asp Prime has the same BV; 'nuff said.

Really??  I love the Hellbringer Prime. 

Neufeld

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #20 on: 02 March 2011, 13:11:22 »
      The Crusader is one of those mechs that in a campaign and/or RPG play gets assigned to That Pilot(TM). You know. The one that made passes at the Colonels daughter. Unless a Jagermech is available...

While it has flaws, it is not that bad. At least the Rifleman and the Quickdraw of the heavy mechs would have higher priority when considering mechs for That Pilot.

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We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
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Akalabeth

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #21 on: 02 March 2011, 14:08:46 »
Some of the other crusaders are better. Like the Liao variant I think which drops the LRM15s for LRM10s to get . . flamers and jump jets? Either way, it has more crits than just ammo in the side torsos. Which is always an improvement.

At least put a heat sink in there or something to give yourself a 50/50 chance of not totally exploding.

Spheroid

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #22 on: 02 March 2011, 15:30:20 »
The Raptor-D always seemed like a good deal for the cost.  You get TAG, beagle, anti-infantry, some anti-mech and C3 slave for only 490 BV.

wundergoat

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #23 on: 02 March 2011, 16:08:28 »
There are a few points in the BV system that you can take advantage of to get the most bang for the buck.  I apologize for this being clan-focused but its been something I have been looking into lately.

1)  Look at the heat efficiency deductions.  Pretty much it works like this: Take the mech's max heat dissipation and add 6, then subtract the heat from its most intensive movement mode.  Next, take weapons in BV order and subtract their heat from the total until you get 0 or less.  All remaining weapons are half price.  Ideally, you want to take up the heat capacity there perfectly, like the diare wolf prime which only pays full price for the ERLLs.  However, if you can dissipate any of the heat of a big gun, then you pay full price for it.  For instance, if a mech has 2 ERPPCs and 12 single heat sinks, then it would be considered to have 18 sinking-2 for running heat-15 for the first ERPPC.  At this point it has 1 more point of sinking left and therefore pays 100% for the second ERPPC, despite being totally unable to use the weapon in a realistic fashion.  There are a lot of mechs that pay full price for a big gun they can't realistically use.

2)  Make sure mobility is being used well.  The dire wolf is actually cheaper than a timber wolf mostly because it is so much slower.  Being clan mechs, both have their BV shifted heavily to the offensive portion due to their amazing weapons.  The mobility factor of the dire wolf adds ~10% to the offensive BV, while the timby's 5/8 speed makes it pay ~40-50% extra.  If you are going to use the machine for sitting on a hill and sniping, you may be paying a ton for mobility you are not using, particularly on a clan machine.

3)  Tcomps add ~25% to the linked guns, so make sure the design is set up to take advantage of this fact.  This is especially important with non-bracketed snipers that have enough excess heat capacity that they are not getting the heat efficiency deductions for their secondary battery.  Essentially, they pay +25% for weapons they potentially will never use effectively.

4)  The advantages of crit packing is not well modeled in BV2.  The poster child for this is the MAD-3R which only gets the BV reduction for having one ammo bin in its side torso when it is equivalent to 12.  Likewise, you don't pay more for having good crit padding around the explody bits.

5)  While weapons overall are valued pretty well, I am of the opinion that the formulas typically used do not accurately represent the effects of weapon to-hit multipliers due to the base assumptions.  I believe that heavy lasers and MRMs are overvalued while pulse lasers are undervalued.  Case in point: from a tonnage point of view the cLPL and cERPPC are both excellent weapons with advantages and disadvantages, but they can generally be said to perform equivalently.  However, the cERPPC costs ~50% more.  Fiddling with the base assumption of the equation and normalizing back, I find the cLPL to be around 380BV rather than the 265 it is currently valued at (the cERPPC is 412).

majesticmoose

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #24 on: 03 March 2011, 10:21:19 »
... Fiddling with the base assumption of the equation and normalizing back, I find the cLPL to be around 380BV rather than the 265 it is currently valued at (the cERPPC is 412).

Now I have no idea what the equation is, but since BV seems largely independent from Tonnage and heat generation, I always immagined it was some variation of  BV=dam*range * To-Hit Mod%* unknown quantity* head capper(damage grouping) bonus

so a CLPL does 10 damage over 20 sapcaes (200 base) and a -2 pilot would equal a 40% increase (280) with some unknows in there.  the weapon should have a small multiplier for the 10 damage (can cause crits on a head hit) adn also can't be aimed (IIRC).  Now 265 does seem a bit low forthat, but not REALLY LOW, to me.

An CERPPC is 15 *23 base (345) and is a head capper (high damage grouping).  I doubt that's worth a 20% boost, but again this is just a rough understanding that I've come up with.  I mean what is the damage value of instant kill?  Should it be the highest CT IS + armor?  That's 93 damage on a 100 ton mech ( and since your chance of hitting the head is 1/36, 1/36*93 = 2.68 possible damage value for a head capper.  823 sapces that is a whopping bonus BV) There's a lot of higher math that could be going on behind the scenes, in addition to small factors like aiming, and other in game effects that mak it hard to quantify the BV calculations.


Neufeld

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #25 on: 03 March 2011, 13:24:46 »
Now I have no idea what the equation is, but since BV seems largely independent from Tonnage and heat generation, I always immagined it was some variation of  BV=dam*range * To-Hit Mod%* unknown quantity* head capper(damage grouping) bonus

This site seems to have figured it out:
http://www.heavymetalpro.com/bv_calc.htm

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We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
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majesticmoose

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #26 on: 03 March 2011, 15:54:02 »
This site seems to have figured it out:
http://www.heavymetalpro.com/bv_calc.htm

Sort of.  For energy weapons they do well, but for things like MMLs and ammo per ton BV they come up with some definitely wrong numbers.

Granted, they did much better than me.

wundergoat

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #27 on: 03 March 2011, 16:50:00 »
That calculator is essentially the equation that models BV.  IIRC Rick derived it from the original BVs and since then it has been used to price out new equipment.  I dunno how it works for multi-ammo weapons like MMLs and LBX cannons though.

The point I was making was that the equation assumes a base THN of 4 (standard pilot standing still shooting immobile target) and only looks at range.  This makes sense in that most portions of the overall BV calc seens to assume that you are using your equipment in ideal circumstances.  The issue is that since the portion of the bell curve used is 4, 6, and 8, THN modifiers of the weapons don't have the same sort of effect they do elsewhere on the curve.  This is a problem because most fights happen in higher areas of the curve and thus positive modifiers are significantly worse while negative modifiers are much better.  What I did for my own calcs was bump the base assumption THN to 6 and then normalized the short, medium, and long range damage values back to unmodified BV to maintain the same ratios.

Havock

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #28 on: 03 March 2011, 21:26:37 »
The Goliath with one ton of Gauss ammo and two tons of machine gun ammo is pretty damn bad, not that cheap either.

I think the Conjurer/Hellhound prime is a really good mech, it costs around 1800 BV standard, more with a proper (3/4) pilot in there but it has a good selection of weaponry. The SSRM2 bin will, despite feeding a double launcher never, ever empty in a game though :)

As for Inner Sphere: I have a soft spot for the Warhammer 6D.
« Last Edit: 03 March 2011, 21:31:08 by Havock »

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #29 on: 18 March 2011, 14:22:25 »
You mean the Karhu D?

I never noticed that untill now, but placment asside that really is nearly a clone of the older Hellbringer, save that it trades the anti personal weapons for heatsinks and has more armor.  I'll definatly have to try it out.  Though it is 400 BV more at 3118, so you pay for what you get.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Best/Worse Mechs per BV?
« Reply #30 on: 18 March 2011, 16:09:29 »
The only thing I don't like about the Karhu D is that it sticks both ER PPCs on one arm, which to me makes it horrifically vulnerable to losing all of its long range weaponry in one shot, but "put the big guns in the left arm" is sort of the Karhu's shtick.
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