ER Large Laser vs Standard PPC

[Leonard Kerensky]

I personally hate the ER Large.  It doesn't do enough damage to be a primary weapon, isn't overly heat friendly, and really only has a short and medium range.  In most cases I will take a standard large over it, but I'll take a PPC any day over one.

i have to say that i agree with your statement. the IS ER Large is relatively lacklustre as weapons go. i would even go so far as to say that i would honesyl rather sacrifice the meager 1 hex of long range for 'Light PPC w/ Capacitor' and an ER Medium. cost wise, it still equals 5 tons, but at an extra 2 crits and 7 heat. BUT. that heat can be broken down, and then crits easily dispersed.

i should also state that i have had an enduring love affair with the Light PPC ever since i first discovered it in Total Warfare. it fits into so many places, has such utility, AND it's a PPC

[LastChanceCav]

Generally the only times I prefer the ERLL to the PPC is as a main gun on light mechs or if I am using C3, which amplifies the advantages of the ERLLs better short at medium range brackets.

Cheers,
LCC

[Beukeboom Fan]

I ended up using the dual PPC's mostly because this is a fire support Mech that will be backed up with medium lasers for short range. I played around with the twin ERLL combo but they lacked the punch needed. 4 possible points forcing a PSR role is important. Maybe in future game play I'll try the ERPPC but that's a whole different story. To be honest the additional hex or two the ERLL did not help. 
Thanks all

I think this is a telling statement.  If you weren't able to exploit the 7, 13 & 14 range band - the ERLL is a total waste.  It's been my experience though that if you're playing against the clan, or after 3050 most mechs have "ER capability" and having to get to range 12 for medium can be difficult.  The difference in long range isn't that big of deal IMO - because I never count on hitting at long range regardless.

[Old Knight]

If i have the choice i would surely use twin PPC with a lot medium laser to back up at close range. A little bit like the old Warhammer or the Marauder...
 [notworthy]

[Havock]

I dunno; I've found the 3050 P-Hawks to be expensive, but surprisingly capable at direct fire support.  The fact that jump jets aren't affected by heat means I can dance those little puppies all around the field, then dart in and knife someone in the back with an ERLL and two MPL's.  The better range distribution, lighter weight and lack of minimum range in that case more than make up for the fact that they lack that extra bit of oomph provided by the PPC.  In fact, the 3050 P-Hawk makes an excellent test case:  had someone designed it with two standard PPC's and no backup weapons, the design would have been completely different, and very much worse.

Yeah, but P-hawks are in that tonnage segment where they can actually be your main gun reliably, two ERLL's are pretty much a threat to most mediums.

[evilauthor]

If i have the choice i would surely use twin PPC with a lot medium laser to back up at close range. A little bit like the old Warhammer or the Marauder...
 [notworthy]

That's fine for heavies and some high end mediums. But the point people are making is that for low end mediums and lights, tonnage becomes a more important factor than heat.

And they have a point, enough so to convince me. Pity though that today, I can for the tonnage of an ER Large get myself a Light PPC and twin Medium Lasers. Less heat, more damage, and all ranges covered.  ;) :D

Well unless I run out of crits first of course.  :-[ But if crits are that big an issue, I'd take a standard large laser for "filler" over the ER unless I absolutely need a long range weapon and don't have one yet.

[Kamov]

I'm in the minority - I like the ER Large pretty much all the time.  Of course, I almost reflexively favor the underdog in all situations, so take that into consideration. :P

[garhkal]

Suggestion to the OP, play some Cannon mechs that use ER larges and others that use standard PPCs and get the feel for them both.

Maybe its how i have had to adjust play to cope, but for the first few years after ER larges came on scene, i did note a better hit/miss ratio with them and more survivability of the mechs using them..  cause the range/heat difference did change how i did things.

I think everyone forgets the omni pod rules- namely, that a PPC forces you to loose the elbow and hand, while a 'mech using the ER LL can still have both to punch.

OR quads can have htem in legs..

Generally the only times I prefer the ERLL to the PPC is as a main gun on light mechs or if I am using C3, which amplifies the advantages of the ERLLs better short at medium range brackets.

Very true.  I love using Er larges for my spotters (especially fast lights who only have 5 or 6 tons of weaponry to play with.

[Stormfury]

Code: [Select]

Weapon Mass Crits Heat Damage 2 or less 3.00 4.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 8.00 9.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 Average Per Ton Per Crit Per Heat
ER Large Laser 5.00 2.00 12.00 8.00 8.00            7.78 7.33 6.67 5.78 4.67 3.33 2.44 1.33 0.67 0.22 4.38 2.19 2.19         0.37
PPC         7.00 3.00 10.00 10.00 10.00         9.72   9.17 8.33 7.22 5.83 4.17 3.06 1.67 0.83 0.28 5.48 1.83 1.83        0.55   

Apologies for the formatting. I can't get it to co-operate any better :(

The ER Large Laser is marginally better on size and mass, but the standard PPC beats it on heat efficiency.

I prefer ER Large Lasers on anything that moves 5/8 or faster, and PPCs on anything slower.

[evilauthor]

The ER Large Laser is marginally better on size and mass, but the standard PPC beats it on heat efficiency.

I think we all knew that just by looking at the base stats.  ;)

I prefer ER Large Lasers on anything that moves 5/8 or faster, and PPCs on anything slower.

I'm more situational. For me, it's not a matter of speed so much as available tonnage, crits, and remaining heat sink capacity.

[Stormfury]

I think we all knew that just by looking at the base stats.

There is that, yes. I should probably have explained the table a bit better; the 2 or less to 12.00 are for the to-hit numbers. Generally speaking, the PPC averages as much damage per shot as the ER Large does on the next lowest to-hit number (eg, a PPC on 7s deals an average damage of 5.83, a little more than the ER Large on 6s at 5.78). How significant this is depends on a lot of factors, but the lighter and faster you are the better you are with an ER Large, while the bigger and slower you are the better the PPC works for you.

[captnmartin]

Working my way up from 3028 introductory Mechs I have finally reached 3050 play years. I have been working with comparing the ER Large Laser and a regular PPC and I can't decide which is best.

The inner sphere ERLL is just so hot and does less damage any likes dislikes, what do you think.

Congratulations, you crunched the numbers and ended up coming to the conclusion that everyone else has.  The weapons aren't balanced.

Do I care about this, or any of the other "Wahh, this weapon sucks why is it in the game?" threads?  Of course not.  Unlike wargamers, militaries are forced to fight with what they have, not what they wish they had.  The new JSF fighter coming out is an overpriced piece of crap, but countries are still buying it, despite it being inferior to pretty much every other new fighter on the market.  And pilots will be trained to fly in, and fight in it.

I think someone ran the numbers a while ago, and the 'best' battletech weapon is the Clan LPL.

[Stormfury]

I think someone ran the numbers a while ago, and the 'best' battletech weapon is the Clan LPL.

Inner Sphere Medium Laser, actually. The Clan LPL's additional range and Pulse bonus help, but still doesn't bring its raw efficiency up to the Medium Laser's standard.

That's still only the "best" for one combat role, though. A Clan LPL won't help you much when you need to deal with assualt BA, or Infantry, or if you're in the Succession Wars, or if you don't have Double Heat Sinks, or...

[evilauthor]

Inner Sphere Medium Laser, actually. The Clan LPL's additional range and Pulse bonus help, but still doesn't bring its raw efficiency up to the Medium Laser's standard.

That's still only the "best" for one combat role, though. A Clan LPL won't help you much when you need to deal with assualt BA, or Infantry, or if you're in the Succession Wars, or if you don't have Double Heat Sinks, or...

Of course, a medium laser (or a bank of them) is no help if the other guy has a weapon that far outranges you and has the speed to keep it that way.

This a bit harder but not impossible to outrange a Clan LPL.

[NightmareSteel]

Tactics and specifics.

No real "best" weapon, all situational.

[captnmartin]

Tactics and specifics.

No real "best" weapon, all situational.

Best All Rounder.  And it is going to be an energy weapon.

[evilauthor]

Tactics and specifics.

No real "best" weapon, all situational.

Some weapons fit more situations than others, and thus are regarded as the better weapons.

Most devastating weapon in the game? The humble Machine Gun. Half a ton and 1 crit each. 200 turns worth of fire per ton of ammo. 2 damage each. NO HEAT. Stack a whole bunch of them together and even assault mechs would fear coming near you.

The only problem of course is that they only have a range of 1/2/3. A faster guy with a single medium laser could pick the MG junkie apart without ever taking a hit in return if the MGs is all the junkie has.

[JPArbiter]

the only reason the medium beats out the small is because of the small lasers range.  in terms of almost every other ratio out there the small laser is MUCH more efficient.  that is the beutiful thing about energy weapons, the larger they get the benefit becomes more and more modest and the detriments more and more pronounced.

[Wanderer]

That's fine for heavies and some high end mediums. But the point people are making is that for low end mediums and lights, tonnage becomes a more important factor than heat.

And they have a point, enough so to convince me. Pity though that today, I can for the tonnage of an ER Large get myself a Light PPC and twin Medium Lasers. Less heat, more damage, and all ranges covered.  ;) :D

Well unless I run out of crits first of course.  :-[ But if crits are that big an issue, I'd take a standard large laser for "filler" over the ER unless I absolutely need a long range weapon and don't have one yet.

Of course, you can't do that all the time- since the LPPC is a much later development than the Star-League era standard PPC and ER LL. :)

[Ice_Trey]

Standard PPC versus ER Large? I'd go ER Large.

Sure, more heat, less damage, but I'm more about better chances of hitting than anything else.

ER Large has larger Short and Medium range brackets than the PPC, and it has no minimum range.

While I wouldn't waste my time if I were trying to make a sniper unit with an ER large laser, it's a very effective mid-range weapon, able to reliably hit stuff at up to 14 hexes.

...Just don't bring more than one of them unless you have the heat-sinks to spare. I still like them more than ER Mediums.

[evilauthor]

ER Large has larger Short and Medium range brackets than the PPC, and it has no minimum range.

The funny thing is that the ER Large's lack of minimum range is much a hindrance as a help. Why a hindrance? Because if you're like me, you like mechs that bracket fire. In bracket firing, certain weapons are used for one range bracket, and other weapons are used in another bracket. Typical example is the PPC and medium laser. PPCs are used until the enemy gets inside the minimum range. Once inside the minimum, you switch to the medium lasers because it now has the better TNs, thus you only need just enough heat sinks for the heat generated by your hottest weapon set.

The ER Large doesn't do that as well because unless you're using pulse lasers as your close in weapon like a Penetrator, the ER Large will have the best TNs from long range all the way to point blank. Therefore the ER Large and its 12 heat should be in every weapon set used at all ranges. That's 12 heat sink capacity that cold have otherwise been dedicated to a more powerful weapon set.

Okay sure, a little fire discipline would let you use a set of short range weapons without overheating, but I like having a minimum range to enforce bracket fire discipline. Call it personal preference if you will.

Plus, I prefer 10 damage to 8 too. Having a round two digit number is psychologically more satisfying than a single digit number ;)

[lucho]

The lack of minimum is an advantage if you're clever. The ER Large makes a good 'dual-purpose' weapon: it can combine with long-ranged stuff such as LRMs. Once you close, you switch over to ERLL + medium lasers (or whatever else strikes your fancy, like an AC/20). The ERPPC generates just a touch too much heat for this to be worthwhile, and is heavier.

The Rakshasha is an example of this (ERLLs and LRMs at range, then ERLLs and MLs in close),  and here's another example of what I'm talking about. A Sunder variant, although you could probably do this on other omnis as well: http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,3295.msg75068.html#msg75068

[evilauthor]

The lack of minimum is an advantage if you're clever. The ER Large makes a good 'dual-purpose' weapon: it can combine with long-ranged stuff such as LRMs. Once you close, you switch over to ERLL + medium lasers (or whatever else strikes your fancy, like an AC/20). The ERPPC generates just a touch too much heat for this to be worthwhile, and is heavier.

Ah yes, the Stalker school of bracket firing. You have one set of weapons for long range, one set of weapons for short range, and one set of weapons used at ALL ranges with both the previous sets. It has its points, but the ER Large Lasers sucks up alot of heat sink capacity, especially if used in pairs.

[ShadowRaven]

Which is part of the reason why I seldom ever pick er Large packing mechs as a first choice. In most cases I would sooner take a lower BV design with a standard large. The classic Medium mechs, P-Hawk, Griffin, Wolverine etc. all work well on the battlefield, even against clan. Especially if playing with BV balance.

[lucho]

Ah yes, the Stalker school of bracket firing. You have one set of weapons for long range, one set of weapons for short range, and one set of weapons used at ALL ranges with both the previous sets. It has its points, but the ER Large Lasers sucks up alot of heat sink capacity, especially if used in pairs.

I'm glad somebody saw the connection. In the age of double heatsinks, the ERLL isn't such a burden as before. The main idea here is to take advantage of the ERLL's relatively light weight, for example to mount LRM-20s. or Gauss Rifles.

Medium mechs tend to do better with the std Large Laser because of mobility. Heavier mechs are better suited to the ERLL because of the relative lack of mobility

[garhkal]

I have had some good battles with mechs wielding twin ER larges in addition to say a LRM-15.. or a single one with paired LRM-20s... then adding in a pair of srm-4s/srm-6s when in close.

[Dread Moores]

Having a round two digit number is psychologically more satisfying than a single digit number ;)

Maybe we could just talk them into printing the damage for the ERLL as 08 from now on.  :P

[garhkal]

Or get the large upped to 10.. damage.

[Onisuzume]

Or get the large upped to 10.. damage.

And you just made the PPC pointless. ::)

[StCptMara]

I tend to go with an PPC over an Inner Sphere ER Large...simply because I view the Inner Sphere ER Large as
a waste. For 2 tons and 1 Crit more, I can have 2 more damage, and 2 less heat. True, I could also have an ER large
and an IS Medium Pulse for the same mass...

If a design I do is going to have an IS ER large, it is invariably going to be a light 'mech, where I am trying to scrape up
tonnage...but, honestly, if I could squeeze in a Standard PPC, I would.