TDR-5S Thunderbolt vs CRD-3R Crusader, fight!

[Akalabeth]

I don't like those torso bombs either, so I'd vote for the T-Bolt.

However maybe the CRD-3L? Less vulnerable to ammo crits

[Morpheus1975]

There's nothing wrong with the Crusader designs.  It just isn't a mech that's designed to slug it out 1-on-1 with a heavily-armored beast like the Tbolt.  It would have the same problem with an Orion.  It's designed to work with other mechs.  A Crusader working with a Tbolt (or if you're a fan of the BoK trilogy, a Crusader working with a Victor) will be more effective as a matched pair than two T-bolts or two Victors working on their own.

I disagree here on this point.  The CRD is a great all around mech that can cover numerous firing brackets with the weapons that it has.  I don't think its a design purely meant to back up others.  With all the variants there are none that would be a proper challenge for a thunderbolt head to head.  Them both having the same tonnage and typically the same speed means that they have the same amount of tonnage for weapons and armor.  The problem then is with the loadouts that each of the CRD variants has.

[Dave Talley]

the crud could be a decent mech if they had put the LRMs and SRMs
and the ammo in the torsos
leave the lasers and mgs in the arms
I realize it was based on an anime mech but common sense should have kicked in

[Spheroid]

the Thunderbolt has always underperformed because of its anemic firepower

That is an extremely humorous(wrong) statement and would only be taken at face value by an assault mechwarrior.

[Blacksheep]

That is an extremely humorous(wrong) statement and would only be taken at face value by an assault mechwarrior.

Only when taken out of context as I clearly stated "...in my experience..."  Meaning, on paper, the Thunderbolt seems to have a winning combination of armor, firepower, and speed (for a Heavy), but it just regularly failed to accomplish much in our campaigns...  When you really look at the standard L1 model, the SRMs and MGs just scatter superficial damage around as does the single LRM 15 at the usual five and four point increments, on average.  Then you have the three MLs and the HL.  I regularly witnessed the T-Bolt sand dusting opposing mechs with its varied firepower while consistantly failing to actually put anything down.  YM (and die rolls) MV, of course.

[Reaver]

I disagree here on this point.  The CRD is a great all around mech that can cover numerous firing brackets with the weapons that it has.  I don't think its a design purely meant to back up others.  With all the variants there are none that would be a proper challenge for a thunderbolt head to head.  Them both having the same tonnage and typically the same speed means that they have the same amount of tonnage for weapons and armor.  The problem then is with the loadouts that each of the CRD variants has.

I think my point was that not being a proper challenge for a Thunderbolt head to head isn't really a design flaw.  Simply put, of the two ways of evaluating a mech:  mission profile (what it can do) or simply having the two slug it out, the former is much better than the latter.  There are lots of things that the Crusader can do, like replace a lost Archer, lay down Thunder minefields and attack strafing aerospace fighters, that the Thunderbolt can't do nearly as well.  By the same token, playing the "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle" routine works much better with a Thunderbolt than a Crusader.  The fact that a Crusader can't do one job as well doesn't mean it's worthless.  Further, a Phoenix Hawk usually beats a Vindicator in a one-on-one fight, but that doesn't stop Vindicators from being extremely handy in a lot of situations, and from taking on other mechs like the Enforcer on more or less even terms.  Judging the Vindicator by its ability to fight one-on-one, then, seems a flawed method of testing the design.

[Demon55]

The SRMs in the Crusader's legs as always been a design flaw to me.

[Diamondshark]

The Thunderbolt is a much more enduring machine, which means that obviously the Crusader will win with a glancing blow from a ML, which scores a double TAC to the gyro.  :D

[Demos]

I'm a Crusader fan, but the question, who will win the fight, depends on the game:

In a conventianal fight at the table IMO the chances are even between both designs (BTW, whta 'walking bomb'? 8 reounds per launcher and 15 for 2 SRM lanucher are hardly a walking bomb).

In MM fights the TBOlt win more likely because of more and sustained firepower. In MM fights , which tends to be longer (more turns) the CRD will run out of ammo shortly.
The TBolt have the chance for chance shots with the LL.

[Akalabeth]

I'm a Crusader fan, but the question, who will win the fight, depends on the game:

In a conventianal fight at the table IMO the chances are even between both designs (BTW, whta 'walking bomb'? 8 reounds per launcher and 15 for 2 SRM lanucher are hardly a walking bomb).

The problem is not the fact it has ammunition. The problem is that it has NOTHING BUT ammunition in the side torsos. Any hit will trigger an ammo explosion. The ammo would be better off in the arms with the launchers, even if it transferred any crits to the CT. An engine hit is better than an expanding cloud of debris.

[Beukeboom Fan]

The problem is not the fact it has ammunition. The problem is that it has NOTHING BUT ammunition in the side torsos. Any hit will trigger an ammo explosion. The ammo would be better off in the arms with the launchers, even if it transferred any crits to the CT. An engine hit is better than an expanding cloud of debris.

I think Demos understand's your point.  His point is that it's highly unlikely that a Thunderbolt will be able to penetrate the side torso's before most of the ammo is fired back.  The T-bolt is likely going to be returning the favor and sandblasting the CRU's armor.  Obviously, the LL will help a little - but it's definetely on the lower end for hole punching.

Like several people have said - in a larger battle the ability to concentrate firepower on prime targets (the high firepower/lightly armored or poorly critical placement mechs) makes the CRU much more susceptible to cooking off.  It's very possible that depending on luck and the CRU's ability to keep the range outside of 10 - that the LRM ammo will be gone before the side torso armor is.

[Akalabeth]

I think it's going to be very difficult to keep the range open against an opponent who can match your speed and has better mobility (jump jets). Especially when the Crusader overheats when it moves and fires, which will either slow it down, or slow down the depletion of its ammunition.

[Neufeld]

I think it's going to be very difficult to keep the range open against an opponent who can match your speed and has better mobility (jump jets). Especially when the Crusader overheats when it moves and fires, which will either slow it down, or slow down the depletion of its ammunition.

The TDR-5S lacks jump-jets.

[Akalabeth]

The TDR-5S lacks jump-jets.

Well, either way, the Thunderbolt can simply run at the Crusader. The Crusader will at best be able to either back up, or run away and turn back to torso twist and fire. Either way, it's moving slower than the Thunderbolt.

[A. Lurker]

Another (minor) point: Let's say the CRD does run out of LRM ammo before its side torso armor is breached; it only has enough for eight salvos per launcher, after all, so that could certainly happen. What does that mean, though? That it can no longer fire its big LRM racks at the TDR (which probably has the armor to have weathered the attacks so far without too much going internal) while the latter still has weapons remaining that can pick at the Crusader from beyond nine hexes, terrain permitting. So, it seems to me that that's just trading one drawback for another.

(For the record, I'd also take the Thunderbolt for that duel, hands down. But then I'm a bit irrationally fond of that classic design in the first place. :) )

[blackjack]

Crusader fan here.. Played out 3R several times against Tbolt... sad to say it was the tbolt that was victiorious 75%  of the time. Had better luck with the Davion & Liao versions. Jump jets came in handy.

[Kovax]

One significant advantage that the "Thud" has over the "Crud" is that the CRD has the SRMs leg-mounted.  I've managed to get a TDR past a CRD's front arc on a number of occasions, and that leaves just arm and torso weapons for both 'Mechs.  The TDR isn't quick enough to reach the rear arc, but a side arc spot limits the CRD to just the pair of MLs and MGs (which then rules out physicals), while the TDR can bring its full complement to bear with a twist: 1 LL, 3 ML (2 if you don't want to build heat that round), 1 SRM-2 (if you can deal with the heat), and either 2 MG or a punch, depending on the CRD's remaining armor.

Add Inferno ammo to the TDR's SRM rack, and it's a no-brainer.

Between that, the HS advantage, and the damage concentration potential of the LL, I'll go with the TDR in any terrain where the TDR can actually REACH the CRD.

[Belisarius]

I am a huge CRD fan and have been since I got into the game. That said, yes, the TDR is more suited to a duel. I really like the new 7W and being able to lay out 28 SRMs in a volley is just outstanding. But to make that mech work, you really need a great pilot and, even then, a bad day means the loss of an expensive mech (odds are good you'll be able to salvage a finger and a toe off that one... too much ammo), as well as an elite pilot (cuz who really lets an elite enemy walk off the field?). The TDR is, by and large, a more effective design. That doesn't mean I won't continue to dote on my CDR7W tho.

[El Kostlivec]

Well, I am quite Thunderbolt fan, but still from objective point of view I also think that in 1 on 1 fight, Thunderbolt would statistically win more times.