so, using the MML....

[Dread Moores]

I try to match the long range damage with the short range damage when I'm putting missile tubes of two kinds on a machine- Twin MML 7 and one LRM 15 is a great setup, especially for a new Crusader.

That is one of those differences I always find interesting here on the forums. That's the exact kind of machine that drives me up a wall. :)

I'll stick with my massed MMLs. Moltkes are still awesome.  ;)

[Youngblood]

That is one of the reasons I would probably prefer the 13C Longbow to the 14C...but I would take the Crusader-7W over both...

The LGB-14C to me seems more like a close-quarters ambush 'Mech rather than a fire support 'Mech.  The design appears to assume that once you've lobbed all 54 SRMs, whatever you shot at isn't really combat-capable anymore, and it wants you to wait a turn and cool your head while you go find another target or something.

I find single MML racks to be fantastic at improving the job Medium 'Mechs can do.  Sometimes that extra 3 or 4 damage is all that's required to get that PSR down on the target, a godsend if you see mostly 4/5 pilots.

[Stormfury]

MMLs generally work best as an upgrade on units that previously mounted both LRMs and SRMs. Some existing canon designs do not make the best use of them, but this can perhaps be attributed to new toy sydrome and the general reluctance to provide truly optimal machines.

With that said, conventional vehicles and ASFs are excellent platforms for MMLs. The latter more in theory because the rules force you to load all LRM or all SRM ammunition for any given launcher, but still.

The reason is, of course, that such units only have slots. The sheer bulk of MMLs makes placing more than four large ones on a 'Mech difficult to say they least, but vehicles can do so and gain a large LRM volley backed by ferocious short-range punch.

Just as an idea for a possible upgrade, grab a Grand Titan and swap the SRMs and LRM-15 for paired MML-9s. Your long and short-range firepower improves, and you've got the tonnage available to add a pair of Double Heat Sinks and some armour. Win-win.

[Diamondshark]

Ooh, I am checking this out!  If I can make something satisfactory, I'll post it in the design boards.

Edit: Here is the link, it was pretty straightforward: http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,3023.0.html

[mensa12345]

That is one of those differences I always find interesting here on the forums. That's the exact kind of machine that drives me up a wall. :)

I'll stick with my massed MMLs. Moltkes are still awesome.  ;)

+1.  It never made any sense to me to mix missile systems.  That's the one big advantage of having a MML is that your reloads are interchangable across the whole mech.  Why would you then put a non-compatable launcher on that has to have its own dedicated loads?

[Prince of Darkness]

+1.  It never made any sense to me to mix missile systems.  That's the one big advantage of having a MML is that your reloads are interchangable across the whole mech.  Why would you then put a non-compatable launcher on that has to have its own dedicated loads?

Because MML's can't replace LRM's effectively, with only the MML 9 reaching the missile throw weight of the LRM 10.

Just as an idea for a possible upgrade, grab a Grand Titan and swap the SRMs and LRM-15 for paired MML-9s. Your long and short-range firepower improves, and you've got the tonnage available to add a pair of Double Heat Sinks and some armour. Win-win.

I'll save most of my thoughts for that design, but right here is a fallacy- you lose over 12 LRM's in that setup, not to mention the Artemis IV on both launchers on an already short-ranged assault 'mech- what's the point?

[Lorcan Nagle]

I'll save most of my thoughts for that design, but right here is a fallacy- you lose over 12 LRM's in that setup, not to mention the Artemis IV on both launchers on an already short-ranged assault 'mech- what's the point?

The Grand Titan has 1 LRM 15 and 2 SRM 6s.  A pair of MML 9s means you can fire 3 more LRMs or 6 more SRMs.

[Prince of Darkness]

The Grand Titan has 1 LRM 15 and 2 SRM 6s.  A pair of MML 9s means you can fire 3 more LRMs or 6 more SRMs.

Heh, only just realized that.  For some reason, I swore it had two LRM 15's- I guess I just couldn't believe a 100 ton assault 'mech was that underarmed.

[Kit deSummersville]

In Soviet Draconis Combine, MMLs use YOU!

[Lorcan Nagle]

Heh, only just realized that.  For some reason, I swore it had two LRM 15's- I guess I just couldn't believe a 100 ton assault 'mech was that underarmed.

It's a Grand Titan - it's one of a kind

(that said, I quite like the variant with the ER PPC, LGR, pulse lasers and streaks)

[I am Belch II]

I like the MML when it comes to firing SRM's, lots of damage. I don't like how many critical spots the launchers take.

[evilauthor]

If all you want out of MMLs is to fire lots of SRMs, you're probably better off stacking lots of dedicated SRM launchers (or STREAKS!).

[Kit deSummersville]

Bah, Streakers are far superior.

[NightmareSteel]

MMLs do make the multi-role thing really effective, especially on dedicated platforms, a la the MML Moltke.

Personally, I like Thunder-Augmented for mine delivery, just to slow people down and break up formations, or LRM-infernos for heat-heavy 'mechs or to push an Alpha-ing ammo-user into "Ammo esplode" territory.  Keep SRMs for close-range armour-scrubbing and critseeking (I cribbed that line from someone else, yes.  Imitation, flattery), or SRM-infernos for insta-shutdown power.

The multi-role capability and flexibility of the MML Molte platform is impossible to overstate.  The hardest part is deciding what ammo to bring along.

[evilauthor]

Bah, Streakers are far superior.

Agreed. If you're gonna miss, then Streaks don't waste ammo firing. If you're gonna hit, the Streaks will put all missiles on target (barring AMS usage). The ammo efficiency is definitely worth the extra 50% tonnage.

[cavingjan]

The LGB-14C to me seems more like a close-quarters ambush 'Mech rather than a fire support 'Mech.  The design appears to assume that once you've lobbed all 54 SRMs, whatever you shot at isn't really combat-capable anymore, and it wants you to wait a turn and cool your head while you go find another target or something.

It makes a great bodyguard unit for LRM boats. Not only can it put out a lot of short range firepower but it can help with the LRM bombardment downrange. Most of the LRM boats converted to MML boats supplement the original models better than replace them. They can still help with the original task but also allows for the close range support that is needed for Fire Support lances.

[Diamondshark]

I agree.  For me, what I do is I'll take a lance of missile boats, and an MML boat as well.  The LRM boats do most of the sighting with aid from the MMLs, but the MML mech is mainly there in case someone gets too close.

[Wanderer]

It makes a great bodyguard unit for LRM boats. Not only can it put out a lot of short range firepower but it can help with the LRM bombardment downrange. Most of the LRM boats converted to MML boats supplement the original models better than replace them. They can still help with the original task but also allows for the close range support that is needed for Fire Support lances.

That's why I loved converting the Ostwar to that triple MML-7 configuration. It still had the throw weight with LRMs but could defend itself up close much more effectively- nobody WANTED to get anywhere near that many missiles, meaning they had it much easier lobbing the LRMs downrange, and it freed up "bodyguard" units for applying pressure elsewhere.

[rlbell]

Just curious, but why? If all 4 launchers fire LRM's, that's only 2 less missiles than most standard Catapults...just the vagaries of the missile hit tables, or something else?

Ruger

The '7' and '9' columns of the cluster table are two of the worst ones (the best being '2', followed by '3', and '6').  IIRC, the '7' column only averages 58% to the '15' column's 62%.  One day, when I am really bored, I will tweak the '4' column to yield exactly 2/3 (the same yield as the '3' column) and use linear combinations to build up a new cluster table where each column (except the '2' column*) averages exactly 2/3's of the missiles scoring.

* balancing the '2' column for exactly 2/3's would either require a roll of two to score no hits (you rolled a hit, so at least one missile must score) or only scoring one hit if a twelve is rolled (violating the theme of higher rolls being better)

[Kit deSummersville]

The two is the best? At least a 5 or 6 tables gives you more than half on a roll of 7.

[rlbell]

The two is the best? At least a 5 or 6 tables gives you more than half on a roll of 7.

Yes.  When rolling on the '2' column, an average of 71% of the missiles hit.  While more than half of the missiles only hit on a roll of 8+, fully half of the missiles fired still score on a cluster roll of two.  What other column has all of the missiles hitting on a roll of 8?

I found the table where I worked out the cluster averages.  The '7' column is only 0.6% worse than than the '15' column (0.6270 vs. 0.6333), and it is the '9' column that blows (0.5833).  It also turns out that the '12' and '24' columns both slightly beat out '3' and '6' (0.6782 vs 0.666).  On average, 36 rolls on the '12' will score five more missiles than 72 rolls on the '6'.  The '9' column really is bad, as (on average) the difference between thirty-six rolls on '9' and thirty-six rolls on '8' is only six missiles.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

What other column has all of the missiles hitting on a roll of 8?

Any LRM pod loaded with Anti-Radiation missiles firing at a NARCed target with an active ECM or C3 system.

Missile pods equipped with Artemis V hit with everything on a 9+.  Missile pods equipped with Artemis IV hit with everything on a 10+.

[NightmareSteel]

rlbell, I'm looking forward to the re-work of the tables.  Sounds like your statistics-fu is stronger (or at least more practiced, which is the same thing) than mine; I was always too lazy to try to rework.

[rlbell]

Any LRM pod loaded with Anti-Radiation missiles firing at a NARCed target with an active ECM or C3 system.

Missile pods equipped with Artemis V hit with everything on a 9+.  Missile pods equipped with Artemis IV hit with everything on a 10+.

Rolling on the '2' column still scores half of the missiles hitting when firing DFM's (roll three dice and discard the highest).  With Artemis V, the '2' column scores a full volley on a 6+  (26 times out of 36 versus 10 times out of 36).  Artemus IV scores a both missiles 21 times out of 36 versus 6 times in 36 for all other columns

Artemus IV shifts the percentage of the '2' column to 79%. Artemus V pushes it to 86%.  The '6' column goes to 74% and 83% for ArtIV and ArtV, respectively.  Not that anyone would put Artemus on an SRM2, but SRM2's get the most benefit from the cluster modifier.

rlbell, I'm looking forward to the re-work of the tables.  Sounds like your statistics-fu is stronger (or at least more practiced, which is the same thing) than mine; I was always too lazy to try to rework.

I play games with dice and have a math degree, so calculating the odds adds to the fun.  The quick fix for the '4' column is to have a dice roll of 3 only score one hit and a roll of 10 score four hits, which brings the average of 36 rolls to 96 of 144 missiles-- exactly 2/3 (feel free to check my math, as being good at Math is not automatically also good at arithmatic, but remember that there are 36 combinations for rolling two D6).  Other columns are made by adding and subtracting multiples of the '3' and '4' columns.  The '5' column can be either 3x'3' - '4', or 2x'4' - '3', and so on.  If I find a modification of another column that is more pleasing*, I will post that, too -- if someone can suggest a proper subforum to post the topic.

* the quick fix distorts in a different way under the influence of modifiers as pluses improve it more and minuses hurt it more, but I would have to run the numbers, and it is quite late now.

[NightmareSteel]

* the quick fix distorts in a different way under the influence of modifiers as pluses improve it more and minuses hurt it more, but I would have to run the numbers, and it is quite late now.

Frakking bell curve is why I don't try to do it myself.  I can do maths and simple probability, but that's where my statistics-fu starts to get weak.

Re: topic- fan articles seems to be the obvious one to me. [shrug]

[Belisarius]

I have to chime in and say that the Crusader7W is impressive. 32 LRMs is more than the original and 32 SRMs is waaayyy more than the original. It makes these mechs (the Crusader, Longbow, Dervish, etc) thorny dilemmas. Do you stand back and exchange at long range? Those LRMs are no joke and it gives the MML carrier's force time to deploy, lay mines, and generally make themselves more dangerous. Conversely, if you rush the MML carrier, you do so into the teeth of many scary SRMs. If you play them cagey they will tend to inflict nasty damage before they go down.

[Neufeld]

I have to chime in and say that the Crusader7W is impressive. 32 LRMs is more than the original and 32 SRMs is waaayyy more than the original. It makes these mechs (the Crusader, Longbow, Dervish, etc) thorny dilemmas. Do you stand back and exchange at long range? Those LRMs are no joke and it gives the MML carrier's force time to deploy, lay mines, and generally make themselves more dangerous. Conversely, if you rush the MML carrier, you do so into the teeth of many scary SRMs. If you play them cagey they will tend to inflict nasty damage before they go down.

You use something that has a lot of jump-jets and snubbies or LPLs. A nine or ten point hit in the rear armor will penetrate and then it is time to start and crit all that XL stuff.
Wraith, Yao Lien, TDR-11SE will eat it for breakfast

[Stormfury]

Average cluster hits by weapon type:

SRM-2: 1.42
SRM-4: 2.64
SRM-6: 4

LRM-5: 3.17
LRM-10: 6.31
LRM-15: 9.5
LRM-20: 12.69

MML-3: 2.42
MML-5: 3.17
MML-7: 4.39
MML-9: 5.47

On a per-ton basis, the MML-7 is actually the best of the series. For SRMs it's the -4, whilst the LRM-5 and -15 are tied.

[Belisarius]

You use something that has a lot of jump-jets and snubbies or LPLs. A nine or ten point hit in the rear armor will penetrate and then it is time to start and crit all that XL stuff.
Wraith, Yao Lien, TDR-11SE will eat it for breakfast

What won't that beat? Pulse/snub jumpies trumps most. Unless we start getting fancy with the BV and including better pilots or some such. I didn't say it wasn't beatable. Just that it was scary. And they do inflict significant damage before they go down.

[Beukeboom Fan]

You use something that has a lot of jump-jets and snubbies or LPLs. A nine or ten point hit in the rear armor will penetrate and then it is time to start and crit all that XL stuff.
Wraith, Yao Lien, TDR-11SE will eat it for breakfast

Of course - those mechs have to survive to get to short range.  I've always found that backpedalling the turn you lose initiative makes it tough for someone to jump behind you.  Add in that hitting after jumping is not guaranteed, and roughly half the hits still end up on the arms or legs, and that strategy isn't a slam dunk.

(Obviously - this discussion is impacted by a ton of factors: terrain, size of battle, experience of pilots, etc.)