Squishies n Crunchies...

[Deathknight69]

Hey gang, Does anybody know of rules regarding PBI's and BA riding on the outside (like in history) of Vehicles?! Just Curious.

Thx for your support.

D69

[NightmareSteel]

PBI?  Means whut?   ???

Total Warfare pages 226-7 indicates that BA can do the whole Mechanized bit with OminVehicles as well as OmniMechs.  The magnetic clamps subsection indicates that clamp-equipped BA can ride any non-VTOL 'Mech or Vehicle with a -1 cruise MP penalty.  It is worth noting that Aerospace units, Airships, and similar are explicitly excluded.

There is no allowance in the rules for conventional infantry riding on the exterior of a vehicle IFAIK.  This is probably because you normally try to get four to six guys riding on top of a tank, not 20+.  Note that a 3 ton bay (TechManual 239) will carry a full platoon of 28 conventional infantry; if you need conventional infantry assets deployed in force, then APC units (or MBTs with some personnel capacity) are going to be the way to go.

[Davion_Boy_74]

PBI means : Poor Bloody Infantry.  ;)

Dave.

[NightmareSteel]

Right, I've heard that before.  Brain-fart. (That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.)

Also, http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,983.0.html looks like a good OmniVehicle for dropping BA.  Since it's omni, you can also easily swap out for the infantry bay for the footsloggers.

[Deathknight69]

Thanks for the help gang.

[Demon55]

Also infantry on the sides of vehicles makes poor ablative armor.

[BirdofPrey]

Not even against machine gun fire and the sandblaster of doom?

[HavocTheWarDog]

Also infantry on the sides of vehicles makes poor ablative armor.

they make for a nice red paint job though!(with lumps)

[Dread Moores]

Red ones go faster....wait, wrong game.

[Nebfer]

There is no allowance in the rules for conventional infantry riding on the exterior of a vehicle IFAIK.  This is probably because you normally try to get four to six guys riding on top of a tank, not 20+.  Note that a 3 ton bay (TechManual 239) will carry a full platoon of 28 conventional infantry; if you need conventional infantry assets deployed in force, then APC units (or MBTs with some personnel capacity) are going to be the way to go.

Even the Abrams has instructions for a 9 man infantry squad to ride it.
It dose not matter if theirs lots of APCs around some one is going to want to ride a tank to their operations area.

I have seen pictures of a Pershing in Korea with at lest 40 GIs riding it. Heck I have seen a pic of an Abrams with at lest 6 marines riding it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M1A1_desant.JPEG

IIRC would it not be possible to have a friendly infantry unit swarm one of your own tanks and just not elect to attack it? If so theirs your tank desant troops.

[seiryuu24]

Unarmored infantry should be able to mount a vehicle fairly easily. Maybe a squad or two. One turn to dismount and no turret rotation while mounted.

On the subject on infantry as armor however, while they may make poor ablative armor, there is not reason why BA units mounted onto the same vehicle as infantry couldn't use said infantry as cheap and effective reactive armor.

Got missiles incoming? Use that enhanced strength and chuck some infantry at it.

[Akalabeth]

Eh, I'm pretty sure the OP is asking about rules for the infantry, not for the tanks. Meaning, he wants to simulate infantry doing like the russians did in WW2. Tankodonestas or whatever. Guys with SMGs who would ride the tanks.

However, I'm not sure how useful that would be in battletech. The infantry rode tanks more for protecting it from enemy infantry. But in battletech infantry are not really that prevalent.

[Dread Moores]

But in battletech infantry are not really that prevalent.

What gives you that impression? They've often been noted as one of the more frequent garrison units, in numbers and by deployment, even on backwater worlds.

[Fallen_Raven]

Yes, but I've yet to see someone deploy sufficient infantry on the table that my concern was protecting my tanks from them rather than killing them off quickly and moving on to a bigger threat.

[Dread Moores]

Ah, gotcha. Not prevalent on the game board I get. Not prevalent in the actuality of the setting, based on fluff...not so much.  :)

[NightmareSteel]

Even the Abrams has instructions for a 9 man infantry squad to ride it.
It dose not matter if theirs lots of APCs around some one is going to want to ride a tank to their operations area.

I have seen pictures of a Pershing in Korea with at lest 40 GIs riding it. Heck I have seen a pic of an Abrams with at lest 6 marines riding it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M1A1_desant.JPEG

IIRC would it not be possible to have a friendly infantry unit swarm one of your own tanks and just not elect to attack it? If so theirs your tank desant troops.

Okay, so you could fit a squad, maybe two, on a tank.  I suspected 4 to 7, but I'll roll with instructions existing- I know how much the armed forces likes to cram people into small spaces.

I don't think you could fit a full platoon though- not even through the swarm infantry rationale.  Swarming infantry are trying to break it, not ride it; you don't need to ride a tank to toss a grenade into its tracks or break a periscope.  It seems to me that fitting more than a squad of people on a vehicle would be unsafe if it was maneuvering or driving at any high speed- more than say, 4 or 5 mp.  Battle Armour gets around this by A) having the claws/manipulators to hold on to the handholds provided by OmniVehicles, as per Total Warfare, and B) they're ****** Battle Armour.

This is, of course, just why the rules don't seem to exist at present.  I'd be cool with foot/jump infantry squads riding on tanks, but if the tank got shot, well... bad news for the squishies.

[Akalabeth]

What gives you that impression? They've often been noted as one of the more frequent garrison units, in numbers and by deployment, even on backwater worlds.

Yeah sorry I meant in terms of in game.
As for in-universe, well there's infantry everywhere but would a lot of people really use tank riders? I don't know. It honestly might be cool to have rules for it. I think that the vast majority of people would not use it, but I'm sure some crazy guys would do it in certain situations. I mean transporting guys on a tank is one thing. Going into battle with guys on a tank is another.

Just consider the infantry to have successfully swarmed the tank, and have any damage vs the tank also apply to the platoon as well. And depending upon the rules for shaking off swarms, maybe there's a chance the infantry can be thrown off if the tank flanks for example.

It would give a little more oomph vs infantry. But not a whole lot more. Might be useful on tanks that don't have machine guns like Manticores and so forth. (though maybe the manticore has a flamer, can't remember. Either way you get the idea)

[NightmareSteel]

It could also be useful for quickly deploying troops to a building you want to fortify...

But then why not use an APC?

I'm with Ak, I think.  The rules might be cool, but deploying foot infantry in penny packets via tank just seems so... halfhearted.  Maybe if you came up with a tank with an "open" infantry compartment, one that the troops could shoot out of, would be more useful, but 28 guys shooting out the side of a truck, drive-by style, seems pretty unlikely.  My mental image resembles the angriest clown car ever.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I asked about this on the last thread, and there are rules for it in Support Vehs.  CBT Vehicles also have larger surface areas IIRC than IRL ones.

And while you may have APCs, you do not always have them where you need them . . . and sending empty APCs that can be spotted on flank march while other armor assets transport the infantry to another sector of the battlefield for suprise and shock value can be interesting.  Hopefully for the opponent.

[NightmareSteel]

Interesting in the Chinese sense?  I like it.

[Akalabeth]

Yeah, I asked about this on the last thread, and there are rules for it in Support Vehs.  CBT Vehicles also have larger surface areas IIRC than IRL ones.

And while you may have APCs, you do not always have them where you need them . . . and sending empty APCs that can be spotted on flank march while other armor assets transport the infantry to another sector of the battlefield for suprise and shock value can be interesting.  Hopefully for the opponent.

Hmmn, well I think your opponent would be more concerned about the Manticores than the APCs myself. Also they'd probably be able to spot 21 guys on the thing pretty easy. Thing is would having people on the tank suppress it's ability to function? Battle armour on mechs means they can't fire torso weapons. Can the tank still rotate it's turret and fire hull weapons while it's covered with friendlies?? I'm assuming the russian tanks did but they tended to concentrate on the rear of the hull so, they were naturally limited in how many people they could carry.

Point is I don't think you could get more than a squad or two on a tank and still have both the tank and infantry able to fight effectively. So if anything, a platoon could maybe pile on but only for the sake of transport.

It's interesting to note also that in WW2 the british tanks were equipped with tow hooks, enabling them to tow anti-tank guns in a pinch. Something similar could be used here if the infantry had field guns. Though probably only one gun towed per tank.

[Nebfer]

Only a squad or two?
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2621976360103673033GBvXgF
This pic has 30+ on the tank.

and a bunch more
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?149940-Infantry-riding-tanks/page5
and
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=85698&start=0

perhaps something like this
Light vehicles = 1 or 2 squads
Medium Vehicles = 2 or 3 squads
Heavy Vehicles = 3 or 4 squads
Assault Vehicles = 4 or 6 squads
Super Heavy = 6 or 8 squads.

With the vehicle being unable to fire it's own weapons, until the riders dismount (which would be handled the same way as infantry disembarking an APC).
One thing to keep in mind is b-tech vehicles are a bit bigger than real life vehicles.

[Jackmc]

If you want to house rule it.  The infantry has no fire control so that's a -2 penalty and I'd probably double the tank's move mods on the infantry to hit.

-Jackmc

[Deathknight69]

Thanks for all the input gang. I gotta ask more wild and crazy questions more often.

[Trenchknife]

If it goes faster than marching...or even a bit slower than marching...the PBIs are gonna ride it.

[I am Belch II]

Have Tank will ride. I'm sure a couple dozen of infantry could ride a mech with no problem.

[Colt Ward]

Eh, the mech has too many moving parts, and does not have the upper surface area as a platform.

[Akalabeth]

Eh, the mech has too many moving parts, and does not have the upper surface area as a platform.

Maybe a Quad like the Goliath or the Scorpion

Or that thing that looks like an AT-AT. Throw some infantry cargo bays in there!

[Trenchknife]

Have Tank will ride. I'm sure a couple dozen of infantry could ride a mech with no problem.

Someone has already mentioned the moving parts problem.  The other is that a 'Mech is too tall to dismount easily.  No PBI I know wants to take a 6m drop in full gear (for a quad) let alone a potential 12m drop from a bipedal 'Mech.  Tanks are much easier to drop off of.

[FedComGirl]

Wouldn't infantry on tanks or on the outside of mechs be considered external cargo?


As for mechs carrying infantry, the Uni and Daedalus could carry infantry easily. The Uni could lower the infantry to the ground with it's lifts. The Daedalus probably unloaded its containers first and the infantry exited them on the ground. The Powerman could also carry infantry in it rear cargo area. .The Dasher was initially designed to carry infantry in arm mounted pods. The Marco shows a person riding on the outside on its observation platform.

Source material for the anime Goliath/ Crab Gunner says that it carries a squad of infantry. A variant carries even more on observation platforms. I've also got this pic of infantry riding on a Scorpion/Blizzard Gunner