Curbing the power of energy weapons

[mutantmagnet]

One of the baseline issues with 3025 play is the power of energy weapons against everything else.

I have a suggestion for one rule change that would fix almost everything.

When a heat tracking unit overheats, in the subsequent turn, any energy weapon that doesn't use ammo or is designated as "small" or "micro" generates an additional +1 heat when used. This effect persists as long as the unit has overheated in the previous turn.

Non-heat tracking units do not have to account for this overheat principle when allocating heatsinks.

With this change several issues are addressed.

Ammo based weapons are more dps efficient when running up the heat scale.
Small energy weapons have a place in fitting considerations.
SRMs and the AC 20 compare a lot better with medium lasers.
Fitting considerations for heavier energy weapons and lighter energy weapons is more nuanced.
Vehicle flamers aren't an automatic joke.

And for those who don't like the sub-rule about non heat tracking units keep in mind I'm doing that because every energy carrying design would become broken otherwise. No point in making a suggestion that forces people to buy new sheets and TROs.

[Stormfury]

I can only assume this is in response to custom energy boats, because canon designs and single heat sinks rarely cause problems.

If energy weapons are really problematic in custom play, surely by now someone will have deployed an SRM spam machine with Infernos to make a point?

[evilauthor]

Reflec armor halves the damage of all energy weapons, but comes with a few disadvantages that prevent widespread adoption. If you remove the disadvantages, call it "Improved Reflec", and then spread it as widely as DHS, you'll have effectively nerfed energy weapons without having to change any stats or rules.

[Kit deSummersville]

I have a suggestion for one rule change that would fix almost everything.

When a heat tracking unit overheats any energy weapon that doesn't use ammo or is designated as "small" or "micro" generates an additional +1 heat when used.

What does this mean? You can't overheat a weapon.

[A. Lurker]

What does this mean? You can't overheat a weapon.

I think he means "When a heat tracking unit overheats, any energy weapon [...]"; that is, the original sentence is missing a comma in a key spot. In other words, eligible energy weapons kick out +1 heat apiece when the unit they're mounted on already runs hot...though some clarification on just what that means in turn might be nice. Is this supposed to happen when there's positive heat left over from the last turn? When the current turn's heat buildup exceeds capacity? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

[mutantmagnet]

Reflec armor halves the damage of all energy weapons, but comes with a few disadvantages that prevent widespread adoption. If you remove the disadvantages, call it "Improved Reflec", and then spread it as widely as DHS, you'll have effectively nerfed energy weapons without having to change any stats or rules.

[rhetorical]Why do people bring up post-Invasion experimental solutions for pre-Memory Core combat?

Please. Stop doing that.

I think he means "When a heat tracking unit overheats, any energy weapon [...]"; that is, the original sentence is missing a comma in a key spot. In other words, eligible energy weapons kick out +1 heat apiece when the unit they're mounted on already runs hot...though some clarification on just what that means in turn might be nice.

Bingo. Each energy weapon generates an additional +1 heat until the unit stops developing excess heat that persists into the next turn.

The exception to this are energy weapons that use ammo and energy weapons counted as small or micro weapons.

[Ian Sharpe]

What about the optional rule for coolant effectiveness?  That will limit how often and how much players overheat or neglect to bring some cool-running ACs.

(My own solution rules-wise is to drastically cut back on how much heat ACs and LRMs generate.  They already are heavy and have explosive ammo, I don't like them generating heat as well.)

[Kit deSummersville]

[rhetorical]Why do people bring up post-Invasion experimental solutions for pre-Memory Core combat?

Please. Stop doing that.

Bingo. Each energy weapon generates an additional +1 heat until the unit stops developing excess heat that persists into the next turn.

The exception to this are energy weapons that use ammo and energy weapons counted as small or micro weapons.

You know, you if you want people to not offer post-Invasion solutions for pre-Memory Core combat, you should probably not bring up weapons that don't exist in that era. I think that's adding to the confusion.

So, if my Archer fires both his LRMs, if I want to add in a medium laser it would cost me 4 heat to do so?

[NightmareSteel]

[rhetorical]Why do people bring up post-Invasion experimental solutions for pre-Memory Core combat?

Please. Stop doing that.

snip

Snip

When a heat tracking unit overheats any energy weapon that doesn't use ammo or is designated as "small" or "micro" generates an additional +1 heat when used.

snip

 ::)

Do you mean Medium?

Alternative rule: rewrite the heat table, so that each ammo explosion line reads "Ammo explosion/cooling failure," cooling failure defined as +1 heat from a small laser, +2 heat from a medium, and +3 heat from a large.  Suddenly you risk dramatic overheating on laser boats.

Edit: Bah.  Kit caught it first- That's what I get for taking time to confirm suspicions.

[niall78]

Ban silly custom all energy mechs for your games? I find customs in any era can badly unbalance play. Or add a custom build rule that all energy weapons are not allowed.

[evilauthor]

[rhetorical]Why do people bring up post-Invasion experimental solutions for pre-Memory Core combat?

Please. Stop doing that.

Oh, 3025 era? Isn't being forced to use Single Heat Sinks a big enough nerf all by itself?  :D

How about a rule where you can't fire energy weapons if your total heat exceeds the heat sink capacity of your mech? Or you can, but you have to make a roll to see if your energy weapon fries itself with the penalty being based on how much overheat is generated. Take a Warhammer for example; it has 2 PPCs and 18 heat sinks. It can fire one PPC with no problem. Firing both PPCs at a standstill generates 2 overheat, so at the end of the turn, roll against the number 2 for each PPC to see if one of them "burns out" and becomes dead weight for the rest of the battle. If the Warhammer walked, it's 3 or less to get a burn out. If the Warhammer ran, it's 4 or less.

[mutantmagnet]

So, if my Archer fires both his LRMs, if I want to add in a medium laser it would cost me 4 heat to do so?

If you overheated in the previous turn yes. If this is your first time firing the LRMs then no.

All that matters is if you overheated in the prior turn.

If energy weapons are really problematic in custom play, surely by now someone will have deployed an SRM spam machine with Infernos to make a point?

This is about both. Besides SRM spam isn't just effective against energy boats it is useful against any design that rides the heat scale in an efficient manner.

[Kit deSummersville]

If you overheated in the previous turn yes. If this is your first time firing the LRMs then no.

All that matters is if you overheated in the prior turn.

Uff, I think you need to reword your rule before discussing things further.

[Wanderer]

One of the baseline issues with 3025 play is the power of energy weapons against everything else.

Energy weapons are superior in any sense of the word, regardless of era. That's why the most hideous designs in the game are all PPC boats- the Awesome, later the Clan Hellstar for example. Or pulse laser boats. And so on. 'Mechs fear energy weapons most of all, especially as they moved into the range of headcapping levels of damage.

They didn't put a decent anti-energy weapon in until plasma rifles, and flamers are a joke for heating up targets. Infernos at least make a decent defensive weapon in that they'll force most sane opponents to cut a few guns out of their barrage lest you heat them to the point of crippling targeting or worse.

Fortunately, ballistic and missile weapons get some decent options later....and energy weapons can stink against non 'Mech units in 3025 play.

There's nothing more amusing than watching an Awesome go down against a pack of cheapo infantry that it can barely fry three at a time on a good day, and a barrage of missiles is generally better at crippling vehicles than spraying them with a large laser. That's the truth, even in non-3025 play. Energy weapons are the best brute-force damage sources, while ballistic and missile weapons do the jobs for everything else.

[faraday77]

@ OP: Honestly? There's no need to nerf energy weapons, especially not in SW tech eras with single heat sinks. [T1 energy weapons combined with double heat sinks are the exception to this, but the status quo will return after the whole range of ER weapons becomes available.]

Lasers and PPCs are good hard target killers because they were designed to do that. Ballistic and missile weapons were made to be more effective against both hard and soft targets.

So, don't clutter up the game further with additional rules - just introduce most of the various special ammunitions from later eras earlier and you're done.

[evilauthor]

There's nothing more amusing than watching an Awesome go down against a pack of cheapo infantry that it can barely fry three at a time on a good day, and a barrage of missiles is generally better at crippling vehicles than spraying them with a large laser. That's the truth, even in non-3025 play. Energy weapons are the best brute-force damage sources, while ballistic and missile weapons do the jobs for everything else.

And to solve that problem, replace one or more of those PPCs with Plasma Rifles.

Of course, getting smacked with 3 or 4 plasma rifles is no picnic for a mech either...  }:)

[Onisuzume]

Reflec armor halves the damage of all energy weapons, but comes with a few disadvantages that prevent widespread adoption. If you remove the disadvantages, call it "Improved Reflec", and then spread it as widely as DHS, you'll have effectively nerfed energy weapons without having to change any stats or rules.

Then I demand that Reactive Armour is given the same treatment.

[A. Lurker]

So, don't clutter up the game further with additional rules - just introduce most of the various special ammunitions from later eras earlier and you're done.

For that matter, TacOps flak and tracer autocannon ammo date back to the 24th century and never seem to have gone entirely away. So if one doesn't mind dipping into the 'advanced' rules just one tiny bit -- and if we're in house rule country in the first place, why not? --, there are canon 3025-era special-purpose munitions for ACs, in addition to whatever one might want to back-date. (Flechette would probably be a good candidate for showing up early, and AP could IMO be justified if anybody actually wants it. No Precision without a really good excuse, tho.)

I'm personally not all that convinced that energy weapons are particularly unbalanced as long as all you disallow double heat sinks, either; but that's just me, and I tend to look down on pure 'flashbulb' designs a bit in the first place because I just find them somewhat boring. So, not the most unbiased of sources here. :)

[Wanderer]

And to solve that problem, replace one or more of those PPCs with Plasma Rifles.

Of course, getting smacked with 3 or 4 plasma rifles is no picnic for a mech either...  }:)

Yep. And you don't have plasma rifles until the late 3060's anyway.

[Kit deSummersville]

Then I demand that Reactive Armour is given the same treatment.

No way, it's too moody. Poke it a little bit and it blows up at you. Until it behaves better it's stuck as it is.

[massey]

Use the old rules for Infernos.  Most custom energy boats are designed to make the most of their heat sinks.  They don't have any to spare.  So you hit a guy with an (old rules) Inferno SRM 2, and he's got an extra 6 heat for 3 rounds (or 6 rounds, if both hit).  The next turn, he'll take an additional 2 because he moved through a fire hex (presuming he moves out of it).

They REALLY nerfed Infernos in TW.

[Stormfury]

I dunno about that. It's now possible to deliver 15 damage from Infernos in a single turn. They're great against Battle Armour now, too.

The only downside is that vehicles don't take pop tests.

[mutantmagnet]

Lasers and PPCs are good hard target killers because they were designed to do that. Ballistic and missile weapons were made to be more effective against both hard and soft targets.

So, don't clutter up the game further with additional rules - just introduce most of the various special ammunitions from later eras earlier and you're done.

*shrug* So you do agree energy weapons are out of hand. Retconning history to make solutions is just as sensible as cluttering up the rules with something as simple as most energy weapons overheat after a heat tracking unit overheats.

Use the old rules for Infernos.  Most custom energy boats are designed to make the most of their heat sinks.  They don't have any to spare.  So you hit a guy with an (old rules) Inferno SRM 2, and he's got an extra 6 heat for 3 rounds (or 6 rounds, if both hit).  The next turn, he'll take an additional 2 because he moved through a fire hex (presuming he moves out of it).

They REALLY nerfed Infernos in TW.

Infernos should stay as is. The live or die coin flip for non-heat tracking units was obnoxious. Besides with no limit to the heat that can be poured on ammo dependent mechs were prone to ammo explosions unlike what we have now.

[faraday77]

*shrug* So you do agree energy weapons are out of hand. Retconning history to make solutions is just as sensible as cluttering up the rules with something as simple as most energy weapons overheat after a heat tracking unit overheats.

See also A.Lurker's post above.

I'm saying that a) energy weapons were designed with a very specific/narrow range of targets in mind compared to ballistic and missile weapons, and b) the 'retcon' is far more simpler/elegant than even more rules and tracking yet another fiddly bit for dubious rewards. I rather prefer the KISS approach when it comes to the TTG. YMMV.

[massey]

I dunno about that. It's now possible to deliver 15 damage from Infernos in a single turn. They're great against Battle Armour now, too.

The only downside is that vehicles don't take pop tests.

They were good against Battle Armor before, too.  I don't care for a lot of the changes that were made in TW, and still generally play by the Master Rules set.  I think most of the changes neutered 'mechs, and acted as a buff to vehicles and infantry.  In my mind that's like giving the guy Arnold Schwarzenegger kills in the opening scene more screen time.  The movie isn't about Terrorist #6.  Infernos now may allow for a good one-turn heat spike, but I don't think they're worth it under the new rules.

[willydstyle]

I was thinking of this yesterday, but would take things in a different direction:

When taking the piloting test for 20+ damage at the end of the shooting phase, if the largest portion of the damage was from laser weapons, the test is at straight piloting skill.

If the largest portion of the damage was non-laser energy weapons, the test is at the normal +1.

If the largest portion of the damage was from missile or ballistic weapons, the test is at +2.

In event of a tie between damage types, use the normal +1 penalty.

[Wanderer]

Considering you can actually roast a target with single heat sinks to death, oh yes that 15-point heatup vs. the constant six is very, very useful.

I managed to catch a Rifleman by surprise in a 3025-era match with a Whitworth-S.

He hit me with both AC's and a large laser + walked. +1 overheat.

I pasted him with both SRM racks full of inferno rounds. Eight hit, +15 more heat, shuts down but otherwise completely undamaged.

I then stood there and napalmed his helpless machine repeatedly until the ammo cooked off, which actually took two turns (failed to restart, succeeded on ammo explosion roll turn 2, failed ammo roll turn 3 and *BOOM*).  Not quite as satisfying as shoving a virgin Axman off a cliff to it's death, but the look on that guy's face was worth every second when he realized what I was doing. If he'd been smart enough to dump ammo I would have just added in the medium lasers + kick every turn until he stopped twitching, but the idea of someone baking his machine till it popped just made the idea leave his mind.

It won't stop an energy boat, but it'll sure as heck make it slow down greatly- even a single hot SRM-6 salvo is enough for that.  People just don't use heat effects cause they're conditioned to believe that double sinks make it ineffective. Not at all. All your opponent has to do is push their sinks, which most intelligent opponents will do. If he drops firing weapons for fear of being flamed, you win either way- a heat crippled opponent, or less firepower incoming.

[Dread Moores]

They were good against Battle Armor before, too.

They're still effective against battle armor under TW.

[willydstyle]

Are infernos available in early eras?

[Peter Smith]

Are infernos available in early eras?

Yes. Somebody figured out how to make 'em ten years after SRMs were introduced (2370 and 2380) and they've stayed in use ever since.