Author Topic: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?  (Read 39584 times)

Wrangler

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #30 on: 02 February 2011, 10:13:18 »
I remember using a Vindicator 4L's Sword and slicing a unfortunate Battle Armor attempting to get physical with me.  That was amusing thing, i'm sure a Hatchet attack on BA is just the same, less worry of tripping.
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OpacusVenatori

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #31 on: 02 February 2011, 10:56:06 »
If only the Invictus variant of the Seraph were designed to better handle the TSM... :-\
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IndyRI

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #32 on: 02 February 2011, 10:59:59 »
Would be interesting if the rules forced damage to the attacking player if they didn't use a weapon of some sort.  Say... 1/2 of the damage caused?  Weapons, being built to handle the stresses of attacking, would take no damage.

When I'm GMing a game in my AU, or even most general games, I tend to use a few special rules for melee weapons and physical attacks.

Kicks = Apply the movement modifier for kicks twice, and no -2 bonus. It makes no sense that a giant robot running top speed is more likely to be able to stop and kick an opponent than punch them, or even hit them with a laser. As such, a stationary mech is even money TH, but a walking mech suffers a +2 movement modifer and a running one suffers a +4. And jumping is a +6. This allows kicking, but makes it far less effective in your average situation.

Punching = Even money to hit. No penalty or bonus. Roll on punch table as usual

Hatchets and Swords = Now roll on punch table. Combined with the nerfing of the kicks, this makes melee weapons actually a solid weapons chocie. It's still difficult to close to melee range, and hard to stay on your feet through the weapons phase in the case that you get there, but if you do, now you get to reap the benefits. Some would say this makes them overpowered. I disagree. it just makes them competitive with non-Physical weapons, which considering their tonnage/crit requirements, they should be.

Mace = As per Hatchets and Swords, but a mech with two hand actuators can choose to not fire weapons in either arm and brace their mace attack. This eliminates the +1 TH modifier and adds a -1 modifier in the case of a missed swing. This makes maces less of a waste of space compared to Hatchets, which is what they currently are.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #33 on: 02 February 2011, 11:23:14 »
I've found in games I've played that hatchet-equipped mechs are best used for psychological warfare. For some reason everyone I've ever played against has been terrified of hatchets. I've even had a player single out an approaching Hatchetman while ignoring the AC/20-toting Hunchback coming up on his flank! Like the fearsome skull-head of the Atlas, a mech w/ a hatchet can sometimes intimidate your opponent into making bad tactical decisions.
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IndyRI

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #34 on: 02 February 2011, 11:35:53 »
Even against advanced players, CBT is agame where psychological impact has a surprisingly high value. Every good player knows that they should target that Stalker before they target the Atlas.... but it's so hard to actually follow that logic when that AC20s Skull-Faced Bubble of DOOOOOOOOOOOM is marching right at you. Hatchets have a similar effect. While this makes their lifespan significantly shorter, when used intelligently it makes an excellent screen for your other, more potent units to deliver their damage and make their manuevers unfettered.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #35 on: 02 February 2011, 11:51:55 »
I remember using a Vindicator 4L's Sword and slicing a unfortunate Battle Armor attempting to get physical with me.  That was amusing thing, i'm sure a Hatchet attack on BA is just the same, less worry of tripping.
BA ?  I had one do that to my Jumping Clan Pulseboat,  it was not a fun day.

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monbvol

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #36 on: 02 February 2011, 20:00:26 »
Actually I would target the Hatchetman before the Hunchback because it can jump, has thinner armor, and moves too slowly to be all that intimidating.

Stalker versus Atlas would depend on what models we are talking about but most of the time the Atlas is usually actually the better target.  While they have more armor they also move slowly.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #37 on: 02 February 2011, 20:58:45 »
Stalker versus Atlas would depend on what models we are talking about but most of the time the Atlas is usually actually the better target.  While they have more armor they also move slowly.

Huh? There are Atlases faster than Stalkers but not the other way around.
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monbvol

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #38 on: 02 February 2011, 21:18:05 »
Thought I put one more Atlas in there to clarify I meant that Atlas does tend to be slower but have more armor.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #39 on: 02 February 2011, 21:28:30 »
Actually I would target the Hatchetman before the Hunchback because it can jump, has thinner armor, and moves too slowly to be all that intimidating.
That's exactly why I wouldn't target the Hatchetman. It will likely be jumping, causing a to-hit modifier, but probably can't move fast enough to actually bring the hatchet to bear. It can't do as much damage at range as the Hunchback. The other player focused solely on the fact that it had a hatchet, and not on its actual damage potential.
« Last Edit: 02 February 2011, 21:44:32 by target_destroyed »
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #40 on: 02 February 2011, 21:55:19 »
Thought I put one more Atlas in there to clarify I meant that Atlas does tend to be slower but have more armor.

Stalkers are 3/5. Atlases are 3/5 or 4/6.
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monbvol

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #41 on: 02 February 2011, 23:19:09 »
Stalkers are 3/5. Atlases are 3/5 or 4/6.

Huh could have sworn there were more Stalker mods that went 4/6 than Atlas mods that went 4/6.  Still the fact that the Atlas tends to be the bigger problem will usually get my attention more often than not.

That's exactly why I wouldn't target the Hatchetman. It will likely be jumping, causing a to-hit modifier, but probably can't move fast enough to actually bring the hatchet to bear. It can't do as much damage at range as the Hunchback. The other player focused solely on the fact that it had a hatchet, and not on its actual damage potential.

Eh for me I'd rather take down the more mobile longer ranged unit first.  That is usually the Hatchetman more often than not.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #42 on: 02 February 2011, 23:59:43 »
Huh could have sworn there were more Stalker mods that went 4/6 than Atlas mods that went 4/6.  Still the fact that the Atlas tends to be the bigger problem will usually get my attention more often than not.

Eh for me I'd rather take down the more mobile longer ranged unit first.  That is usually the Hatchetman more often than not.
I'd say it depends on the variant really, as well as what you think would help you to achieve your mission objective.  Want to take off some of the pressure that the enemy gun line is putting on?  Go for the Stalker, but be wary of the fact that they can flip their arms.  Older Atlas models tend to be somewhat anemic in their long-range support (the Atlas II does MUCH to change this conception).  But if it's a 'Mech with a big bad gun trying to push the battle line at your supporting forces, like the Hunchback, it wouldn't hurt to take it out of the running now before it's a REALLY URGENT big bad gun problem later.  It all depends on what you think will help turn the tide of battle in your favor, which is something I believe brute Physical Weapon carriers can do.

Oh by the way, the number of canon Atlas variants that move 4/6: Three, the AS7-K2, AS7-K3, and the AS8-D (when it has TSM on).
Number of canon Stalker variants that move 4/6: Zero.

garhkal

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #43 on: 03 February 2011, 05:10:10 »
Would be interesting if the rules forced damage to the attacking player if they didn't use a weapon of some sort.  Say... 1/2 of the damage caused?  Weapons, being built to handle the stresses of attacking, would take no damage.

Like charges..

Quote
I've found in games I've played that hatchet-equipped mechs are best used for psychological warfare. For some reason everyone I've ever played against has been terrified of hatchets. I've even had a player single out an approaching Hatchetman while ignoring the AC/20-toting Hunchback coming up on his flank! Like the fearsome skull-head of the Atlas, a mech w/ a hatchet can sometimes intimidate your opponent into making bad tactical decisions.

I have also seen that.  Once i put 4 spotters for C3 units (9 on 9 group), but the enemy ignored ALL 4 spotters to take out the 2 hatchet wieldig jumpers..

Quote
Eh for me I'd rather take down the more mobile longer ranged unit first.  That is usually the Hatchetman more often than not.

True dat.. but then iirc it only has a LRM-10 for long range..  many other mechs have lot more than that.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #44 on: 03 February 2011, 05:33:02 »
The Hatchet, for me, is a kind of guideline for how to use the 'mech. If I am using a 'mech with
a hatchet, my job is NOT to hang back and take pock-shots, it is to close and be aggressive.
Many players, in my experience, have issues dealing with the sort of naked aggression that
comes with a hatchet. Because, when you use a hatchet, you are accepting that you ARE going
to get hit. In fact, I tend to conclude that a hatchet wielding 'mech is already lost, and its job
is to go down in glory. If the 'mech survives....that is a bonus!
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IndyRI

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #45 on: 03 February 2011, 09:36:42 »
The Hatchet, for me, is a kind of guideline for how to use the 'mech. If I am using a 'mech with
a hatchet, my job is NOT to hang back and take pock-shots, it is to close and be aggressive.
Many players, in my experience, have issues dealing with the sort of naked aggression that
comes with a hatchet. Because, when you use a hatchet, you are accepting that you ARE going
to get hit. In fact, I tend to conclude that a hatchet wielding 'mech is already lost, and its job
is to go down in glory. If the 'mech survives....that is a bonus!

A fair point. In general, you're going to lose your hatchet-mechs eevn if you are suing them properly. If you aren't, then you are likely playing them the way the entire physical phase is usually played: if it happens it happens, if not, so be it. A hatchet is enough of a tonnage/crit commitment that you really need to play to use it. Be smart, use terrain, but if your tactical doctrine dictates you hold that hatchet-mech back at range, then you're playing it wrong.
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DevianID

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #46 on: 03 February 2011, 11:56:00 »
I maintain that punches and kicks need drawbacks in a game with hatchets and swords as they are.  As others have said, punching headcaps better than hatchets and swords, and kicking causes lots of damage to a specific location that also comes with a to hit bonus and forces a PSR.

If you have a hatchet on a canon mech, then so be it.  But if you are designing a mech, there needs to be some incentive to include melee weapons if only for rule of cool.

I like the ideas of having punches and kicks force PSRs to avoid critical damage to the hand/foot actuator.  The actuators will keep getting damaged until the arm/leg is a mangled stump.

Also, melee weapons should have a significant defense bonus versus unarmed attacks.  After all, a guy swinging an axe/sword does so with additional reach.  Thus, return attacks versus a melee wielding mech should be at a penalty.

Without those changes, or perhaps different balance changes, hatchets are far too inefficient for the resources required.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #47 on: 03 February 2011, 12:40:23 »
Oh by the way, the number of canon Atlas variants that move 4/6: Three, the AS7-K2, AS7-K3, and the AS8-D (when it has TSM on).
Number of canon Stalker variants that move 4/6: Zero.
The AS8-D moves 4/6 without the TSM. [skull]
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #48 on: 03 February 2011, 13:42:31 »
The AS8-D moves 4/6 without the TSM. [skull]

Nope, SFE.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #49 on: 03 February 2011, 14:14:01 »
Fooey.  Forgot the 8-D wasn't the main version detailed in the TRO.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #50 on: 03 February 2011, 14:53:54 »
Correct. Though it should have been.  ;)
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TheOldGuy

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #51 on: 03 February 2011, 18:45:51 »
I just ignore the TW rules and use the punch location table.  Now hatchets are fun again!

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #52 on: 04 February 2011, 02:35:08 »
If you play a game correctly, you wouldn't use Hatchets or any other physicals at all...but that is in a perfect world.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #53 on: 04 February 2011, 06:27:30 »
I maintain that punches and kicks need drawbacks in a game with hatchets and swords as they are.  As others have said, punching headcaps better than hatchets and swords, and kicking causes lots of damage to a specific location that also comes with a to hit bonus and forces a PSR.

Also, melee weapons should have a significant defense bonus versus unarmed attacks.  After all, a guy swinging an axe/sword does so with additional reach.  Thus, return attacks versus a melee wielding mech should be at a penalty.

Without those changes, or perhaps different balance changes, hatchets are far too inefficient for the resources required.

Perhaps that "Range" thing can be a new rule...  Mechs using melee weapons can make 'unopposed' physical attacks due to the range difference. 

Quote
I just ignore the TW rules and use the punch location table.  Now hatchets are fun again!

Since most games i have played in that has been a common ruling (even if incorrect), it does give a benefit to them.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #54 on: 04 February 2011, 08:11:08 »
If you play a game correctly, you wouldn't use Hatchets or any other physicals at all...but that is in a perfect world.
Would you care to explain your reasoning behind this?  I think I'm not understanding your statement because I can't tell if it's a comment on tactics or philosophy.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #55 on: 04 February 2011, 09:16:14 »
Yeah, I'm with Youngblood.  Explain please.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #56 on: 04 February 2011, 09:24:45 »
If you play a game correctly, you wouldn't use Hatchets or any other physicals at all...but that is in a perfect world.

Chalk me up as poster number three wanting clarification. You make an inflammatory statement like that, at least have the courtesy to explain why. Then wwe can discuss rather than simply wonder.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #57 on: 04 February 2011, 09:32:27 »
I think this thread could have done wonders as a Poll. ;)

Anywho chock me down for a fan of Hatchets that was very dissapointed at their expanded unitlity, but loss of effectiveness. As with most people, I loved it for one reason. Head shots.

I'll still use it, but over half the time, a kick is still better because I use kicks to slow down my opponents that I can't hit due to a big mod, while I only use hatchets now as a heat free weapon against something with mega leg armor.

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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #58 on: 04 February 2011, 09:56:23 »
Anywho chock me down for a fan of Hatchets that was very dissapointed at their expanded unitlity, but loss of effectiveness. As with most people, I loved it for one reason. Head shots.

Again, even though it is commonly house ruled (including by myself), there was never and instance of Hatchets rolling on the punch table in the official rules. They didn't lose effectiveness, they just never really had it to begin with.
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Re: Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?
« Reply #59 on: 04 February 2011, 10:47:54 »
Those hatchet are cool anyway and since Battletech is a game then go for it my friends !!! Logical thing are not always the best...  ;D
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