Best Swiss Army weapons

[mutantmagnet]

Awhile back a discussion was started on if you had to choose only 5 weapons to equip your army with what would they be.

Not surprisingly the God tier weapons that ruled almost universally in the lists was the medium laser and Gauss Rifle.

So I was curious as to see what people considered to be the most well rounded weapons.

What weapon offers the best options for engaging different unit types from fighters to infantry and was the most effective at achieving those results while not making your mech loadout gimp?

You can pick any two weapons and you can change your vote if you feel like it later on.

[IndyRI]

Well since the god weapons aren't on the list, I'm going to go with a couple of fairly recent weapons that I've been getting excellent usage out of: The Plasma Rifle and the MML 9.

The Plasma Rifle is essentially a PPC with extra utility. 6 tons plus 1 or two for ammo, nearly the same range, no minimum, 10 heat for 10 damage. It also has the benefit of causing a small little heat spike on the opponent. 1d6 of heat may not be much, but on TSm machines or anythin that runs a little hot it will at the very least limit how much of their arsenal an enemy can throw back at you. Finally, against non-heat-tracking units, the PR tacks on extra damage. Battle Armor and PBI especially start falling like flies. The Plasma Rifle does the job of a PPC and a burst fire weapon AND Inferno SRMs all in one conveniently sized unit.


MMLs are similar in that they allow you to fill multiple roles easily. LRMs and SRMs are already incredibly versatile in the sense that they have a wide variety of ammunitiuon types for any occasion or role. And with MMLs allowing a long range punch and a short range crit-seeking hit all in the same unit, it's hard not to recommend them. They can lay mines, they can spread infernos, they can deal damage, they can crit seek, they can indirectly fire, etc.

[Arkansas Warrior]

PPC and LBX10

[IndyRI]

PPC and LBX10

Any reasoning there, buddy. You're usually more talkative than that.

[Youngblood]

Awww, but weapons are my favorite part of BattleTech!  I like the big ol' Standard AC/20 for specialized ammo, which can include Precision for hunting down runners, or Fragmentation for PBI...Flak in TacOps rules for VTOLs and ASFs, oh and PBI again.  Nothing beats the catharsis of personally running up to someone and unloading concentrated 20-point love onto them!

As for Battle Armor and ground vehicles, there's nothing like some specialized, direct-fired Sniper ammo to cover a whole patch of hexes with!  Motive crits and dead squads everywhere!  Not to mention the more tactical uses, like Smoke for covering advances, or Cluster for raining evil pain, or Thunder mines for MORE area denial, or Inferno for setting forests on FIRE FIRE YEAH FIRE.

My other choices would have been TAG, Arrow IV, and LRM 20s. {>{>

[IndyRI]

My other choices would have been TAG, Arrow IV, and LRM 20s. {>{>

I'm noticing a pattern here, my friend. A big fan of the long range hurt, huh?  ;D

[Youngblood]

Yeah, though I don't really get to play support units often.  Ask any one of my fellow campaign players and they'd say I'd never bother fighting past 9 hexes!  Pulse lasers, AC/20s, and TSM galore!

[cray]

Awhile back a discussion was started on if you had to choose only 5 weapons to equip your army with what would they be.

Not surprisingly the God tier weapons that ruled almost universally in the lists was the medium laser and Gauss Rifle.

So I was curious as to see what people considered to be the most well rounded weapons.

My choice for most well-rounded: Medium laser, LRM launchers, and PPCs. Between those 3 weapons there is little you cannot blow up on the battlefield. MLs (most forms) are efficient secondary weapons, PPCs (of all stripes) are workhorse heavy, ranged weapons, and LRMs' ammunition flexibility and indirect fire capability makes them, well, flexible. Can they destroy 'Mechs? Yep. Tanks? Yep. Infantry? Yep. Aircraft? Yep. Buildings? Yep. Short-range targets? Yep. Long range targets? Yep (PPCs and LRMs). Indirect fire? Yep (LRMs). Non-lethal and supporting munitions? Yep (LRMs). They're not the most effective weapons for all those tasks, but they can accomplish them, and the weapons that are better at one of those tasks tend to suffer in other roles (e.g., MGs: great infantry killers, not so good in the other roles.)

Of those, you only listed LRMs, so I voted "LRM 15" and "see below."

Note that the MLs, LRMs, and PPCs are my preference amongst well-rounded weapons. There are other fun combinations. The Gauss Rifle you mentioned is laudably flexible, too - there ain't much it can't blow up, though it's not to my taste.

And MLs, LRMs, and PPCs are not the most perfect

What weapon offers the best options for engaging different unit types from fighters to infantry and was the most effective at achieving those results while not making your mech loadout gimp?

You can get the job done with LRMs, MLs, and PPCs. There are better weapons for killing infantry, like MGs, but the trio of workhorses will do. LRMs with specialty ammo can be murderous, especially if they can use exploit their range against the infantry.

If I had to pick a single specialist weapon for anti-infantry work, it'd be the MG. Light, compact, lots of ammo, very effective. In fact, when picking 5 weapons for my military I'd think long and hard about making the MG one of them. (And on that note I'd probably pick an artillery piece to be the 5th.)

[Crunch]

I went with the Plasma Rifle (Good Direct Damage and great at multi role engagement from PBI to CVs), and the MML3.

While the 3 is not my favorite MML rack I avoided the larger ones since I'd be using them on smaller mechs and vees instead.

[Old Knight]

Like some of you, i pick the plasma rifle as one of my choice for the same reasons already explained. The other is the LB-10X. This weapon have a good range bracket and deal a good amount of damage. You can also switch it to cluster ammo for better chance to hit or for critical hit seeking. A very good all around weapon.  [applause]

[IndyRI]

I'm actually very surprised by the amount of LB-X ACs are getting so far. Autocannons, even the more advanced variety, are typically panned for being inifficient for their damage/range values. Nice to see that some players still continue to find some utility for them.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Any reasoning there, buddy. You're usually more talkative than that.

LBX because it's a good medium of capability versus weight/space.  The smaller LBXs are a waste of tonnage, and the -20's hard to get the tonnage and space for.  LBX too because it provides the ability to hole punch and critseek, as well as AAA duties.
 
PPC just for all around awesomeness.  It doesn't have the great damage/heat/tonnage of the ML, but it's got good range, provides a pretty strong 10 point hit, and doesn't really have bad heat issues.  It's the gun you build a mech around, whereas MLs tend to be backup guns, or most useful only en masse.

[Crunch]

I'm actually very surprised by the amount of LB-X ACs are getting so far. Autocannons, even the more advanced variety, are typically panned for being inifficient for their damage/range values. Nice to see that some players still continue to find some utility for them.

Under TW they're a god weapon against VTOLs and Combat Vees and good against mechs and Aero. They also slightly outperform direct fire energy weapons against Infantry.

I gave the edge to the Plasma Rifle because of anti Infantry performance and the MML3 for the varied benefit of LRM and SRM munitions, but the LB 10 and the LAC 5 were both close runners up on my list.

[LastChanceCav]

Although there are few things that can't be taken care of by the liberal application of MLs and PPCs, I find the LB10-X to be an appealing weapon for its low heat (goes nicely with PPCs), whole-punching/critting flexibility, decent range (again goes good with PPCs) and AAA capability.  The only downside is its mass which generally prohibits its use on lighter units.  As a ballistic weapon its also a good choice for moutning on vees as well.

Cheers,
LCC

[Kit deSummersville]

Very sad the Flamer isn't included. You can set fires, kill infantry, damage tanks, heat up 'Mechs and cook a wild boar with it.

[IndyRI]

Very sad the Flamer isn't included. You can set fires, kill infantry, damage tanks, heat up 'Mechs and cook a wild boar with it.

Post-TW I'm actually a big fan of the flamer. It's a tonnage-cheap swiss-army weapon in a way no other burst-fire weapon is. It's probably redundant on a mech already carrying another anti-PBI weapon, but the utility to create fires, spike heat, etc allows it to almost never feel like a complete waste of space. The Clan version especially is invaluable. It's a half ton investment in your survival in any combined arms game.

[Mattlov]

LB-10X is a classic multi-purpose weapon.  Really is a great gun.

My new favorite is the plasma rifle, though.  Heat and damage, no danger to the wielder in terms of ammo explosion, and an easily managed heat output.  All for a light and compact weapon.  It is great in almost all circumstances.

[mutantmagnet]

My choice for most well-rounded: Medium laser, LRM launchers, and PPCs.  Can they destroy 'Mechs? Yep. Tanks? Yep. Infantry?

You can get the job done with LRMs, MLs, and PPCs. There are better weapons for killing infantry, like MGs, but the trio of workhorses will do. LRMs with specialty ammo can be murderous, especially if they can use exploit their range against the infantry.

Ever since the Infantry damage calculations reboot PPCs and Medium lasers sucked at killing infantry since they only do one damage each shot.

LRMs I'll give you credit but I generally found them lacking up until TacOps gave them mine clearance warheads which had the indirect benefit of making an alternative anti-infantry ammo option that wasn't undesirable.

Very sad the Flamer isn't included. You can set fires, kill infantry, damage tanks, heat up 'Mechs and cook a wild boar with it.

Just for you I'll put aside my bias against them ;)

I still won't list weapons like Gauss rifles and medium lasers in the poll because the question wasn't about weapons that are very one dimensional in their rules structure.

[Sockmonkey]

I've got a thing for the ERPPC. Granted it's only practical if you have DHS, but so worth it to have a single non-ammo dependant weapon that's good at all ranges.

[Railan Sradac]

I'll just go over the two I picked, expound on a few more that didn't make the cut (and a couple more that weren't on there [tickedoff]). Keep in mind I've been playing CV-only for the past while (showing those Bears that we don't need no steenkin 'Mechs) so my opinion will be quite skewed.

Winners: The LB-10X and the NARC beacon.

LB-10X: I love this thing. I put a pair on my MBT (a 70-ton 5/8 tank w/ XLE) and they are beautiful. They've got the range to engage at what is about the same distance as his shorter-ranged units, hole-punch nicely and then critseek like a god afterwards. Also, if he's got a pilot he really likes in one I can just spray clusters at him until he dies from head hits.

(i)NARC beacon: Ever been in a star-vs-star battle where one side is entirely comprised of vehicles? Now take that and make sure that almost every vehicle in the place has LRMs of some description. Put a NARC on one of your fast hovers and watch its target disappear in a hail of 5-point clusters.

Runner-ups:

The LRM-15: Light at 3.5 tons, puts out a great amount of firepower at a crazy range and can still unload in their pretty little faces. Goes beautifully with a NARC and if you're feeling really mean, you can take one or two of my Coelispex (Heavy LRM Carrier) and load them up with Semi-Guideds. They won't see anything except the rain of LRMs.

AC/10: On the few occasions I play IS, this is a great thing to have. Good range, great flexibility and a solid pair come on my favourite IS 'mech to walk.

SRM-4: Light, extremely efficient and good for crit-seeking when the -10Xs are still punching holes. Plus I get to see those heat-scale-riding heavies of his writhe in agony as they shoot way past safe.

Arrow IV: Hueys carry a pair. Best fire support I can get usually. Great with TAG-equipped hovers and homing rounds. Additionally, on the few occasions we get a bit of mixtech stuff, they make great C3 Masters.

Things that should have been there (but weren't):

ATMs: I know, throwing bank machines at your opponents is fun. What's more fun? Watching the front armour on a Kodiak disappear as it gets loaded up with HE. Good when you don't have NARC in your force or are using AIV instead. Really good on light scouts for "discouraging" those annoying Ice Ferrets and such.

TAG: What? It wasn't there! You're kidding me. Only one of the single best items I've ever encountered, it synergizes with Arrow IV, Semi-Guided LRMs and all that fire-support jazz. I put it on any vee I can find the tonnage for, as it's too useful to lose with your EW specialist.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

LB-20X: makes big holes in mechs; check
exploits holes in mechs; check
good vs ground vehicles; check
functional vs infantry; check

Okay, not actually as good as the LB-10, but IMO more fun.

Arrow IV: Makes big boom; check
Makes accurate boom; check
Makes instant minefield; check
Makes things on fire; check
SAM I am; check
Air-to-air; check

[iamfanboy]

Wow, I just realized the Flamer is on there - dammit, I shouldn't've picked the MML!

Almost every 'Mech I've designed in the past few years has included a flamer as its anti-infantry weapon, for the versatility of it that goes beyond machine guns or pulse lasers - starting fires, anti-infantry, raising heat... as everyone has mentioned above, it's a swiss-army weapon.

In fact, when it came time to pick a 3025-era Whitworth variant to print out for my record sheets, I only had to look between the 3xML 2xSRM-6 and 2xML 2xSRM-6 1xFlamer for half a second before hitting "PRINT!" on the Flamer version - for one thing, the flamer is in the HEAD.

FIREBREATHING WHITWORTH MOFOS!

The other choice I made was the LB-10X of course. 1 ton lighter than the AC/10, same damage/heat, better versatility? Sign me up baby!

[Fear Factory]

Simply put, Clan Large Pulse Laser.  It's a beast.

I actually voted for the LB-5-X Autocannon.  It's a weapon a lot of people overlook on both sides.  It is great for hitting vehicles and fighters plus it's a decent critical seeker.  My favorite use for it is with an ER PPC or Large Pulse Laser.

[mutantmagnet]

LB-20X: makes big holes in mechs; check
exploits holes in mechs; check
good vs ground vehicles; check
functional vs infantry; check

Okay, not actually as good as the LB-10, but IMO more fun.

From your experience do you think the LBX 20 overcrits its target?

By overcrit I'm saying when you want to exploit exposed mech internals or kill a vehicle through crits you end up doing that long before all your crit checks are done.

Arrow IV: Makes big boom; check
Makes accurate boom; check
Makes instant minefield; check
Makes things on fire; check
SAM I am; check
Air-to-air; check

Indeed in the thread I referred to this was one of my five must have weapons but I have a hard time justifying as the among the best utility weapon because of the massive cost in crits and mass.

I actually voted for the LB-5-X Autocannon.  It's a weapon a lot of people overlook on both sides.  It is great for hitting vehicles and fighters plus it's a decent critical seeker.  My favorite use for it is with an ER PPC or Large Pulse Laser.

From your experience is it preferable to try not to squeeze in an LBX10 in custom mechs when an LBX 5 fits perfectly and doesn't force you to compromise other aspects of your designs?

Is the LBX 5 a better weapon to deal with VTOLs?

[Stormfury]

I voted for the LPL conditionally, as it needs to be a Clan weapon to be effective in every role (aside from indirect fire or whatever).

For the second, it would go to the MML-5 (IS) or ATM-6 (Clan).

However, being able to do anything does not mean you're doing it well. The 3025 Shadow Hawk can always do something no matter the situation; near as I can determine, that something is usually making you wish you had a Wolverine-M instead :P

So it is with weapons.

[cray]

Ever since the Infantry damage calculations reboot PPCs and Medium lasers sucked at killing infantry since they only do one damage each shot.

I'm aware of that. They still kill infantry and do so at ranges few infantry can match. I'd prefer to plink away at infantry from out of their reach than to close to let them have their fair turn.

I still won't list weapons like Gauss rifles and medium lasers in the poll because the question wasn't about weapons that are very one dimensional in their rules structure.

That's an odd definition "versatile." Wouldn't the battlefield definition ("Able to accomplish many things on the battlefield") be more useful than "has lots of complicated rules"? I mean, the PCs and NPCs using the guns aren't going to care about some invisible rulebook in the sky. Their interest will be what battlefield roles can be filled by the weapon.

ATMs: I know, throwing bank machines at your opponents is fun. What's more fun? Watching the front armour on a Kodiak disappear as it gets loaded up with HE. Good when you don't have NARC in your force or are using AIV instead. Really good on light scouts for "discouraging" those annoying Ice Ferrets and such.

Railan, I liked most of your ideas and the logic behind them, and I loved some of them. But ATMs? A weapon isn’t versatile when it needs 3 types of specialized ammo to accomplish what others – like the Clan LRMs – can do with one ammo type. (Less, really, since ATMs lack indirect fire.) ATMs’ only advantage is at 1-3 hexes, but if that’s your range of interest you’d be better off replacing ATMs with Clan SRMs.

[O5P_Ghost]

Off this list I have to choose the Plasma Rifle and LB10x. They are the most versitile. I'm begining to like the Plasma Rifle so much that I'm thinking of going Cappellan...

But if I had to choose 5 weapons for an army it would be PPC, LRM, Medium laser, Arrow IV (to echo cray), and the SPL for infantry. I prefer the SPL over the MG, due to weight factors. a MG and 1/2 ton of ammo is the same weight as the SPL but I avoid ammo runs and explosions. I do have some heat issues but...

now if I can get an IS version of APguass...

[Kit deSummersville]

Just for you I'll put aside my bias against them ;)

Oh goody! Subtract one Plasma Rifle vote and add in a Flamer vote.

[IndyRI]

Railan, I liked most of your ideas and the logic behind them, and I loved some of them. But ATMs? A weapon isn’t versatile when it needs 3 types of specialized ammo to accomplish what others – like the Clan LRMs – can do with one ammo type. (Less, really, since ATMs lack indirect fire.) ATMs’ only advantage is at 1-3 hexes, but if that’s your range of interest you’d be better off replacing ATMs with Clan SRMs.

Dude, ATMs are incredibly efficient weapons for the intended effect. The only advantage that LRMs and SRMs have over them is that they can use a variety of specialized ammunition types, but other than Infernos and FASCAMs most of these will rarely be used anyways. For one, ATMs really should only be using ER and HE ammo. Standard is alright, but is too much of a middle ground to be much use comparitively. ER ammo has a 6 hex advantage on LRMs. That's significant. And HE does an enormous amount of damage. To match the damage output at long and short range of an ATM12 with ER and HE ammo, you'd need 1 LRM 15 and 3 SRM6s. That's an 7 ton, 5 crit ATM launcher generating 12 long range damage and 36 short range damage for 8 heat against 8 tons and 5 crits of LRMs and SRMs generating 15 damage long range damage and 36 damage short range for 17 heat. And the ATM has integrated Artemis. Are ATMs an every-time replacement? No. But they are pretty plainly more efficient is terms of damage for heat, and even damage for tonnage by and large.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

From your experience do you think the LBX 20 overcrits its target?

By overcrit I'm saying when you want to exploit exposed mech internals or kill a vehicle through crits you end up doing that long before all your crit checks are done.

And that's a bad thing somehow?