Poll

What is your top 2?

iNarc
Narc
MML 3
MML 5
MML 7
MML 9
LRM 5
LRM 10
LRM 15
LRM 20
SRM 2
SRM 4
SRM 6
Plasma Rifle
Pulse Laser Small
Pulse Laser Medium
Pulse Laser Large
Variable Speed Laser Small
Variable Speed Laser Medium
Variable Speed Laser Large
Fluid Gun
Light AC  2
Light AC  5
Autocannon 2
Autocannon 5
Autocannon 10
Autocannon 20
LBX  2
LBX  5
LBX  10
LBX  20
Machine Gun Array - Light
Machine Gun Array
Machine Gun Array - Heavy
Arrow IV
Thumper
Sniper
Mech Mortar 1
Mech Mortar 2
Mech Mortar 4
Mech Mortar 10
Flamer ER
Flamer
Flamer Heavy
Not Listed - See post

Author Topic: Best Swiss Army weapons  (Read 24902 times)

IndyRI

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #30 on: 03 February 2011, 10:27:36 »
Probably a question of efficiency than anything else, Ogre. But personally I'd prefer to overcrit than undercrit.
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Fear Factory

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #31 on: 03 February 2011, 13:07:48 »
From your experience is it preferable to try not to squeeze in an LBX10 in custom mechs when an LBX 5 fits perfectly and doesn't force you to compromise other aspects of your designs?

Is the LBX 5 a better weapon to deal with VTOLs?

The LB 5 has some good reach and it can compliment the ranges of most of the Clan hard-hitting weapons perfectly.  It's like a very long range SRM-4.
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LastChanceCav

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #32 on: 03 February 2011, 14:37:06 »
The LB5-X also pairs nicely with the range brackets on the IS ER PPC and I've paired them on my C3 snipers in the past.

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Bowman

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #33 on: 03 February 2011, 17:45:40 »
Swiss army weapon? Why, the medium laser of course. It could go on any mech and be used in almost any application. It can even uncork a bottle of wine in 2 seconds flat.

Fear Factory

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #34 on: 03 February 2011, 18:30:12 »
The LB5-X also pairs nicely with the range brackets on the IS ER PPC and I've paired them on my C3 snipers in the past.

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LCC

Yep.  Pack regualr ammo for the concentrated damage, then when the holes open up or when Tanks, Fighters and VTOL show up, switch to cluster.

Not sure but how does flak do against Infantry?  Can't remember off the top of my head.
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Railan Sradac

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #35 on: 03 February 2011, 20:01:18 »
Railan, I liked most of your ideas and the logic behind them, and I loved some of them. But ATMs? A weapon isn’t versatile when it needs 3 types of specialized ammo to accomplish what others – like the Clan LRMs – can do with one ammo type. (Less, really, since ATMs lack indirect fire.) ATMs’ only advantage is at 1-3 hexes, but if that’s your range of interest you’d be better off replacing ATMs with Clan SRMs.

I'm flattered, Techy-mech. As I mentioned, I play CVs prominently (and that looks pretty good on my CV, methinks) and while I have a mod of my 50-ton hover (the Hetairoi) that runs a fine complement of SRMs, it doesn't fare too well in general. While they aren't that dangerous usually, my opponent knows that once my ER PPCs and similar have finished on the armour of his heavies, that SRM barrage is going to make the kill, and while I do have 7.5 tons of Ferro-Fibrous on the thing that doesn't mean much against those MPLs. Plus, staying out of MPL distance means greater longevity in general as I can kite and fiddle with TMMs to my heart's delight. I find ATMs to be very useful in that I can drop large quantities of missile fire at ranges where his main response is LRMs. If I really want to, I can dance way out of his range using the 27-max range of the ER ammo, but seeing as I like my engagements to not take hours I don't tend to do that often. Furthermore, against the ubiquitous light/medium omnis that appear fairly regularly as part of his Stars, the ATM's veritable bucket of 5-point clusters seem to be more useful than the SRMs. And then, there's the simple fact that I like being able to function at numerous ranges.

Also, while I extolled the virtues of NARC in my post, I find it hard to fit on Clan Vees and tend to leave that for when I play IS. AIV (that's Artemis, not Arrow) is quite nice however unless I'm firing indirectly (which is likely if there are Coelispexii around) and it comes free on ATMs and doesn't require me to re-buy it per launcher as ATMs are fairly mass-consumptive. When NARC is not around LRMs lose a fair bit of ground on ATMs IMO, as you want AIV to get that accuracy bonus. Additionally, I tend to put ATMs on support units that can move to cover or aid any unit that isn't doing their job properly, which requires flexibility to do.

Onisuzume

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #36 on: 04 February 2011, 08:12:09 »
I think I'll go with the MRM and the Large Laser.
The former for its damage potential up close (or with C³), and the latter for good basic performance.
They got almost the same range brackets as well.
If only we could get special MRM ammo...

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #37 on: 04 February 2011, 08:16:38 »
I can't believe the medium laser wasn't listed.  :o

I went with LBX 20 and the SRM 6.
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IndyRI

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #38 on: 04 February 2011, 09:27:11 »
I think I'll go with the MRM and the Large Laser.
The former for its damage potential up close (or with C³), and the latter for good basic performance.
They got almost the same range brackets as well.
If only we could get special MRM ammo...

Really? I love MRMs for the pure fun of dropping 40 missiles on an opponent, but do you really think that they're one of the two most effective all-around weapons in the game? How so?
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Onisuzume

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #39 on: 04 February 2011, 10:09:08 »
Really? I love MRMs for the pure fun of dropping 40 missiles on an opponent, but do you really think that they're one of the two most effective all-around weapons in the game? How so?
Because they're surprisingly effective even if they don't look like it.
Back on the old forum (part of the section lost), a design contest was about unobviously optimised designs/weapons. my 6×MRM-10&1×LL design (based on MAD-3R) did surprisingly well in MegaMek (not sure if it was balanced by BV or by tonnage). And it wasn't even using a C³ Network during that trial (C³ network trial was/is still pending). Sure, it'll lose to a 100-tonner, but how many 75-tonners can consistently beat 100-tonners?
Just stay away from AMS.

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Sockmonkey

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #40 on: 04 February 2011, 16:27:08 »
Swiss army weapon? Why, the medium laser of course. It could go on any mech and be used in almost any application. It can even uncork a bottle of wine in 2 seconds flat.
I wouldn't say it's so much a jack of all trades as much as it does a particular job that everyone needs done, and does it well.
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maddyfish

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #41 on: 05 February 2011, 16:59:11 »
LBX 10, and Medium laser

LBX is pretty straighforward, and med lasers ca be piled up just about anywhere.
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mutantmagnet

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #42 on: 05 February 2011, 17:59:14 »
Nice to see Large Pulse lasers getting so many votes.

Still shocked to see LRMs being outweighed as a group by MMLs. (even though I really shouldn't considering the question I asked)

XaosGorilla

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #43 on: 06 February 2011, 12:21:52 »
The Clan Large Pulse Laser would have received my vote, but the list does not make the distinction between Clan and IS weapons.  Plus, erm, i kinda prefer to play IS. That puts me in with the LB-10x and Plasma Rifle voters...

Schottenjaeger

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #44 on: 07 February 2011, 13:28:05 »
Indy, the reason you're seeing so many ballistics is simple - you asked for flexibility. The PPC (say) is a  great weapon, but like almost all energy weapons it does one thing well - tear big chunks off of mechs and vees at range. Even though ballistics are "inefficient", their very ammo dependence adds something to the unit - it's a small-scale equivalent to Omni design.

The plasma, LBX-10, and Lpulse (#1, #2 and #4 choices for me) win at pure multitasking: you don't have to add or subtract anything from the guns to make taking a design with them always worthwhile.  The reason the LPL falls farther behind is a matter of taste - I don't usually put a LPL on most of my own designs, but I've never been disappointed in its performance when I play a canon design with one. All three guns (along with the latter pair's less-useful, but still entertaining cousins) have massive tactical flexibility, although they're still restricted to 2-3  roles in any one game.

On the other hand, the LAC-5 (my #3 vote) and other basic autocannon can readily swap ammunition depending on the mech's mission profile. It has a strategic flexibility the other guns simply can't match. It's is an ER medium ( a fine, fine weapon) with the option to add anything from  TAC-hunting to a ghetto tarcomp in-between missions. In much the same way, any missile launcher can suddenly become something much different depending on what you need here, now, on the field. SRMs  and cLRMs have less flex than isLRMs, which of course have less than MMLs, but each has its own uses.

One of the reasons MRMs seem so "useless" is that they have nothing but the most basic ammo - play with them in a intro rules match, and they suddenly feel a lot more like what they're supposed to be (a cheapy answer to the Clanner LRM's multirange ability). It's a nice bonus, but even with their large potential damage the small amount of tactical flex it adds simply doesn't make up for the lack of strategic options in this contest.
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IndyRI

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #45 on: 07 February 2011, 14:07:07 »
@Schottenjaeger
Oh, I understand the difference in terms. I would never recommend the PPC, for the simple reason that it does exactly as you described: one thing. It does it very, very well, but it still lacks in versatility and flexibility. I was more curious about the fact that ACs were pulling in so many votes. While they're flexible, you really make the chocie between a good crit-seeker (LB/X), firepower (Ultra), or general flexibility (AC and LAC). And what flexibility you get from the LAC or AC is limited, as only the Precision, and occasionally the Armor Piercing, ammo are really ever worthwhile. Whereas with missiles you receive even greater tactical flexibility, greater general utility, etc. I'm less down on ACs than I simply think there are other weapons that are far more flexible.

The Plasma Rifle is an excellent weapon capable of dealing damage, causing heat, killing combined arms, anti-air, starting fires, etc.

Missiles I already described.

Flamers are excellent multi-use tools for starting fires, clearing infantry, causing heat

Large Pulse Lasers lack some general flexibility, but are able to capably engage virtually any non-infantry target.

I was just surprised that the ACs won out over some of these designs, not that they lack flexibility and utility.
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Crunch

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #46 on: 07 February 2011, 14:28:03 »
@Schottenjaeger
Oh, I understand the difference in terms. I would never recommend the PPC, for the simple reason that it does exactly as you described: one thing. It does it very, very well, but it still lacks in versatility and flexibility. I was more curious about the fact that ACs were pulling in so many votes. While they're flexible, you really make the chocie between a good crit-seeker (LB/X), firepower (Ultra), or general flexibility (AC and LAC). And what flexibility you get from the LAC or AC is limited, as only the Precision, and occasionally the Armor Piercing, ammo are really ever worthwhile. Whereas with missiles you receive even greater tactical flexibility, greater general utility, etc. I'm less down on ACs than I simply think there are other weapons that are far more flexible.


The LB-X does a number of things well. It's flak bonus makes it among the best at anti aircraft and Anti VTOL work. It's excellent anti vehicle gun with it's cluster ammunition having a good chance to crit just about any vee into immobility in short order, and the to hit bonus of cluster makes it generally useful against fast movers. When you combine that with good hole punching and the ability to switch back and forth between the two during a battle you get multi role weapon that doesn't cripple you against mechs.

As for specialty ammo, while Precision is the golden child, AP, Flak, Caseless, Tracer, and Flechette all have roles to fill depending on your situation.
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Schottenjaeger

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #47 on: 07 February 2011, 14:34:16 »
Righto. I was pointing out my logic for going with the autos as my secondary choice - they're best when not viewed as an independent weapon, I feel.
The LBx isn't just a critseeking auto, for example, it's really "PPC+" - in this case, plus anti-air and to a certain extent, anti-infantry capability that happens to stack with its critseeking. It also gains a significant anti-Light mech capability - sandblasting at a -1 TN is actually a viable strategy against flankers. Likewise, the LAC-5 is "MLaser+". The Ultras just (potentially) do more of the same, and I see them as a much less flexible system. The only one I've really had success with is the UAC-2, which is one of the tiny handful of good long-range infantry killers. Hilariously, I find that the Mauler is one of the best counters to infantry-based LRM spotting in the game - load her up with frag/mineclearing LRMs if you can, then start saturating hexes. I'm sure there's far better things for an Assault to be doing with its time, but it's still funny.
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IndyRI

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #48 on: 07 February 2011, 14:38:15 »
The LB-X does a number of things well. It's flak bonus makes it among the best at anti aircraft and Anti VTOL work. It's excellent anti vehicle gun with it's cluster ammunition having a good chance to crit just about any vee into immobility in short order, and the to hit bonus of cluster makes it generally useful against fast movers. When you combine that with good hole punching and the ability to switch back and forth between the two during a battle you get multi role weapon that doesn't cripple you against mechs.
Again, not arguing that it doesn't. It just is generally outclassed by several other weapons in terms of flexibility IMHO. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just surprised based on my own feelings and the general sentiment on these boards, that ACs got so much love.

Quote
As for specialty ammo, while Precision is the golden child, AP, Flak, Caseless, Tracer, and Flechette all have roles to fill depending on your situation.

See, I'm not a huge fan here. They all have uses, but that's a whole lot of ammunition bins you need on a mech to be able to use them. Most LRM and SRM specialty rounds have enough use in and of themselves that they can be used by themselves or with normal ammunition to supplement. With AC ammo, you're fulfilling one very narrow role with each one (Precision aside), which means that it is harder to utilize the weapon without carrying even more ammo types for the variety of different roles. I love the idea of special AC ammo, but by and large it's been underwhelming.
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Schottenjaeger

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #49 on: 07 February 2011, 20:30:48 »
...With AC ammo, you're fulfilling one very narrow role with each one (Precision aside), which means that it is harder to utilize the weapon without carrying even more ammo types for the variety of different roles. I love the idea of special AC ammo, but by and large it's been underwhelming.
-emph. added.


Here's the difference between what the AC fans are arguing and what you're arguing.

As long as I know what role I'm going to use the mech in before it hits dirt, I only have to load one or two types of ammo into the mech. Everything else stays in the MFB. It offers, again, a strategic flexibility. 2 tonnes of Precision and some slug are all I need for hunting rabbits. On the other hand, if I see ASFs on the other side of the table, I'll load up on Flak for one or two of my AC-carriers to free up tonnage for slugs in the LBX mech(s), which the ASF player is likely to prioritize in the early game.

If I see Lyran Archer dragging 2 companies of infantry and 4 Archers up, OTOH, it's time for Flechette - so I can drag his artillery out of cover quickly.

Once the models hit the map, yes, any individual load-out is less flexible than most of the other options. But the game starts long before the metal is in a hex..
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mutantmagnet

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #50 on: 07 February 2011, 22:30:41 »
The real answer is that LBX cluster ammo packs in a lot of flexibility for the same tonnage of other alternative ammo. As a result you aren't forced to overburden your mech with multiple tons of

That's why LBXs pretty much dominate among the autocannon votes.

But it's pathetic how the autocannon block as a group is unlike the voting distribution among SRMs, LRMs and MMLs where they are all having healthy numbers.


IMO LBX 10 doesn't qualify for the top 3 ammo in the game for flexibility.

Those would be:

Plasma rifle -
Does full damage to battle armor simultaneously.
Has mild anti vehicle crit seeking abilities at moderate ranges.
Has highest probability of one shotting any VTOL (when it does connect LOL).
Does solid 10 point damage to any heat tracking unit.
Can reduce the DPS of heat tracking units or mess up their movement profile.
Just rips through infantry at ranges too long for most of them.

Airburst ammo-
Can be fired indirectly without a spotter.
Is a direct counter to stacks of doom strategies.
Most efficient (fittings wise) crit seeking long range weapon in the game.
Does full damage to battle armor.
Ignores so many defensive mods: stealth armor, AMS, movement, intervening woods and smoke.
Completely decimates infantry (unless they hide out in buildings).

Non-Homing Arrow IV-
It's LBX cluster ammo cranked to 11.
They both can perform flak fire but Arrow IV ammo can hit harder which allows it to one shot any VTOL and perform structural integrity crits on fighters on top everything else LBX clusters could do. It also hits more accurately.

They both can perform multiple crits on target but Arrow IV does it to multiple targets over multiple hexes and without sacrificing concentrated damage to do it. The big trade off to that is how inaccurate it is outside of preset hexes.

The fittings requirements for the weapon using it are large but overall the weapon sufficiently works with a lot more unit types than others which is one of the major factors that makes it a great flexible strategic weapon.


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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #51 on: 08 February 2011, 00:06:15 »
My money's also on the flamer, that granddaddy of the much-loved plasma rifle.  Under the TW ruleset, it has been transformed from a heavier machinegun with questionable utility into a great multirole tool that I'd be happy to have on almost any design.  For much less weight than the plasma rifle, too!

mutantmagnet

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #52 on: 08 February 2011, 03:13:59 »
And for much less range too. Zing!  ;)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #53 on: 08 February 2011, 03:27:49 »
Non-Homing Arrow IV-
It's LBX cluster ammo cranked to 11.
They both can perform flak fire but Arrow IV ammo can hit harder which allows it to one shot any VTOL and perform structural integrity crits on fighters on top everything else LBX clusters could do. It also hits more accurately.

They both can perform multiple crits on target but Arrow IV does it to multiple targets over multiple hexes and without sacrificing concentrated damage to do it. The big trade off to that is how inaccurate it is outside of preset hexes.

The fittings requirements for the weapon using it are large but overall the weapon sufficiently works with a lot more unit types than others which is one of the major factors that makes it a great flexible strategic weapon.

Arrow IV shots can't hit aircraft unless you're using SAMs.  And they deal damage in clusters of 5, not 1, so they're more like LRM 20s that don't roll on the Cluster table and aren't affected by AMSs than LBX ACs.
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mutantmagnet

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #54 on: 08 February 2011, 09:13:08 »
Arrow IV shots can't hit aircraft unless you're using SAMs.  And they deal damage in clusters of 5, not 1, so they're more like LRM 20s that don't roll on the Cluster table and aren't affected by AMSs than LBX ACs.

It's in Tac Ops. Certain Arrow IV warheads can perform flak fire and Nonhoming is one of them.

Ofcourse they deal 5 damage. That's one of the things I'm implying when I state Arrow IV is LBX cranked to 11. You can exceed aerofighters' structural integrity threshold as well as forcing a control while LBX clusters can only do the control roll barring some rare exceptions.

IndyRI

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #55 on: 08 February 2011, 10:00:14 »
As long as I know what role I'm going to use the mech in before it hits dirt, I only have to load one or two types of ammo into the mech. Everything else stays in the MFB. It offers, again, a strategic flexibility. 2 tonnes of Precision and some slug are all I need for hunting rabbits. On the other hand, if I see ASFs on the other side of the table, I'll load up on Flak for one or two of my AC-carriers to free up tonnage for slugs in the LBX mech(s), which the ASF player is likely to prioritize in the early game.

Once the models hit the map, yes, any individual load-out is less flexible than most of the other options. But the game starts long before the metal is in a hex..

Understood. However, with standard ACs, Precision is useful for handling flankers, armor piercing is occasionally good against things like heavily armored targets, etc. But my honest question is how the AC, or even the LBX AC, is more strategically useful than an LRM or even SRM launcher? LRMs can lay mines, deal damage in multiple hits, light fires, cause heat, wipe out infantry, fire indirectly, clear mines and even BA. SRMs can crit-seek, cause heat, kill vehicles almost outright, wipe out infantry, cause IS damage through armor, tear apart Ferro-Fibrous armor, etc. MMLs can do all these at once.

ACs are versatile, and useful, but I'm not sure I understand the choice of them over other offered weapons. I don't question the flexibility, just the relative utility.
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mutantmagnet

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #56 on: 08 February 2011, 19:11:30 »
Quote
armor piercing is occasionally good against things like heavily armored target

I should point out mathematically speaking armor piercing rounds getting a crit on any battlemech location are inferior to LBX clusters performing a TAC (when looking at weapons of the same size). The targeting penalty of the AP ammo and the targeting bonus of the cluster ammo is what causes this condition.


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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #57 on: 08 February 2011, 19:32:06 »
There's also the matter of LB-X ACs having better ranges.
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IndyRI

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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #58 on: 09 February 2011, 13:01:55 »
I should point out mathematically speaking armor piercing rounds getting a crit on any battlemech location are inferior to LBX clusters performing a TAC (when looking at weapons of the same size). The targeting penalty of the AP ammo and the targeting bonus of the cluster ammo is what causes this condition.

True but standard ACs can't use clusters. If you're designing from the ground up then you're right. If AP ammo is your goal, then you're probably better off going LB-X. But if you prefer the additional flexibility of a standard or light AC, for whatever reason, at least AP ammo offers that crit chance.
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Re: Best Swiss Army weapons
« Reply #59 on: 09 February 2011, 13:32:24 »
My choices would be the MML5 and the AP guass.

Now, for the MML5, it's pretty obvious from previous posts, definitely variable range profiles, options for ammo (smoke, etc), and relatively weight efficient and heat efficient.  not the best but...

Also, it's worth noting that consolidated MML launchers (such as the 5 and 9) tend to be more weight efficient than large numbers of MML3's.


Now, the AP guass.  Not the best weapon (and I almost chose plasma rifle for all the great reasons cited in above posts) but the tonnage of the Plasma rifle limits it's inclusion on smaller units (and heat generation is a minor issue).  The AP guas has a decent range profile, and while ammo dependent and less damage then a ML, it has great anti infantry at a range, is DB not energy damage (so no special defensive tech exists to thwart it) and it's includable on almost any unit you can think of.  Locust IIC is a good example of how they can be arrayed to deal considerable damage for their weight ratio with almost no chance of over heat.  for the (tonnage) cost of one plasma, you could instal 10 ap guass, have an additional ton of ammo, and have more to-hit rolls for better average damage, plus be able to thwart intense numbers of conventional infantry. if only there was an ap guass array...