Dirtbag Militia and how to configure it.

[Colt Ward]

Its also a tactical consideration . . . for example a Gauss Rifle field gun platoon can absorb a limited amount of damage before the firepower is halved.  The medium rifle is 5 tons?  That means I can break that platoon up into squads to spread that firepower across the battlefield, so a platoon gets broken up into three 8 man squads so they can suffer nearly 30% casualties in the squad before the gun b/c inop.  Though if kept together as a platoon, I can get 4 rifles and maybe sustain the 3 rifles longer than individual squads could do in combat.

Yeah, it may not do much to mechs or armor, but it SHOULD be more available to marginal planets' militia and will still be effective for the ammo count.

[Terrace]

Sure, but higher weight so you need more troops to keep them functioning and rifles are also a lower technology.

Yeah, but they're a lot easier to aim simply due to the nature of how Artillery Cannons work (you target the hex, not the unit(s) occupying that hex), so you're not gonna have nearly as many missed shots. That one shot will delete the entire BA squad on the spot. The only BA suit I can see surviving even a Long Tom Cannon would be the Black Wolf, a Clan Heavy BA that sports Reactive armor, and that's only found among Clan Wolf.

But since we obviously disagree, I suggest the compromise of simply having them be equally valid choices, with it coming down to personal preference.

[Kidd]

Yeah, but they're a lot easier to aim simply due to the nature of how Artillery Cannons work (you target the hex, not the unit(s) occupying that hex), so you're not gonna have nearly as many missed shots. That one shot will delete the entire BA squad on the spot. The only BA suit I can see surviving even a Long Tom Cannon would be the Black Wolf, a Clan Heavy BA that sports Reactive armor, and that's only found among Clan Wolf.

But since we obviously disagree, I suggest the compromise of simply having them be equally valid choices, with it coming down to personal preference.

Capability is not a question.

The question is how dirtbag one wants one's militia to be :D

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but they're a lot easier to aim simply due to the nature of how Artillery Cannons work (you target the hex, not the unit(s) occupying that hex), so you're not gonna have nearly as many missed shots. That one shot will delete the entire BA squad on the spot. The only BA suit I can see surviving even a Long Tom Cannon would be the Black Wolf, a Clan Heavy BA that sports Reactive armor, and that's only found among Clan Wolf.

But since we obviously disagree, I suggest the compromise of simply having them be equally valid choices, with it coming down to personal preference.

Not disagreeing really- I think artillery should be everywhere!  or at least every defensive position, comes with being a redleg.  Its just the matter of IIRC the cannons are not as common (and LTCs at that) as the 'systems' and such a 'high' tech piece is more likely to be with House regulars.  Rifles could be manufactured on world and is not going to be the type of weapon system someone up the hierarchy will poach.  Some regional lord decides he needs to expand his personal forces (especially in FWL!) and he will likely start eyeballing his retainers to see what he can appropriate.

[Matti]

Dirtbag Militia 'mechs come from only 1 book:
TRO 3025.

reason? 3039 and 2750 have tech that Dirtbags don't have access to.

Do we count TRO 3025 Revised? Because Sentinel is a Dirtbag 'Mech.

[kaliban]

Its also a tactical consideration . . . for example a Gauss Rifle field gun platoon can absorb a limited amount of damage before the firepower is halved.  The medium rifle is 5 tons?  That means I can break that platoon up into squads to spread that firepower across the battlefield, so a platoon gets broken up into three 8 man squads so they can suffer nearly 30% casualties in the squad before the gun b/c inop.  Though if kept together as a platoon, I can get 4 rifles and maybe sustain the 3 rifles longer than individual squads could do in combat.

Yeah, it may not do much to mechs or armor, but it SHOULD be more available to marginal planets' militia and will still be effective for the ammo count.

I believe there is a maximum of 4 field guns per platoon.

Gauss Rifles are not the type of weapon I imagine for Periphery militia but even the good old AC/5 makes a weapon for them - specially if you get some second hand ones. I usually play 2 rifle motorized squads unit with 16 troops and a single AC/5. The rifles range combines very well with the AC/5 range.

[Col Toda]

Yet another ERA Specific question . The Idea for Basic 3025 gear on the whole is OK until the Repubic ERA . All militaries down size pushing Battle Armor and more advanced combat gear to militias and scapping miltia gear instead makes some sense . So on paper a certain percentage of the military hardware is recorded as destroyed or decommissioned . So you will see the better stuff 3075 + . 

[kaliban]

Yet another ERA Specific question . The Idea for Basic 3025 gear on the whole is OK until the Repubic ERA . All militaries down size pushing Battle Armor and more advanced combat gear to militias and scapping miltia gear instead makes some sense . So on paper a certain percentage of the military hardware is recorded as destroyed or decommissioned . So you will see the better stuff 3075 + .

if I understood right, maybe the other way around. If the main Houses were decomissionning their conventional infantry equipment to create Battle Armor units, these equipment could eventually reach smaller States and Pirate Kingdoms and form numerous dirtybag militias.

 

[truetanker]

Selling: Used (normal wear) Auto-Rifle. Asking 200 C-Bills each. FIRM ... bulk cases only includes Kleankit brand cleaning supplies with every 50 rifleso sold. Ammo extra.

TT

[Daryk]

Auto-Rifles?  The 80 C-Bill ones??  ???

[truetanker]

Selling: Used (normal wear) Auto-Rifle. Asking 200 C-Bills each. FIRM ... bulk cases only includes Kleankit brand cleaning supplies with every 50 rifles sold. Ammo extra.

TT

I aslo should have said " Some assembly required. "
TT

[Daryk]

Still pretty steep, even assuming you're using an unusually disarmed era...

[kaliban]

I noticed one thing is missing: Dirtbag Militia should use modified IndustrialMechs, no?

[Terrace]

I noticed one thing is missing: Dirtbag Militia should use modified IndustrialMechs, no?

A hard No on that. This is about giving your players a challenge with introtech, remember?

[truetanker]

Still pretty steep, even assuming you're using an unusually disarmed era...

200 C-Bills for 50 rifles is steep? You said it before, 80 apiece new... times 50 equals 4000... I'm selling them 200 for same 50 rifles...

That's a bargain, assuming 44 rifles are fit for active duty after reassemble that is...

Buyer beware... and all that!  :thumbsup:
TT

[Daryk]

The first two sentences made it sound like it was 200 each.  The bulk cases only bit came later, and I read that as 50 x 200 = 10,000 per case.

[kaliban]

A hard No on that. This is about giving your players a challenge with introtech, remember?

IndustrialMechs can be done with Introtech. I missed the point.

[Terrace]

IndustrialMechs are far too fragile, even when compared to Introtech Mechs. Armed IndustrialMechs tend to explode even faster than the typical Light BattleMechs, because they often can't move fast enough to build up the movement modifier that they need to survive, given their low armor levels.

So no. Straight up BattleMechs only, please.

[Colt Ward]

But that is not what this scrapings of the bottom of the barrel has to use . . . and that IndiMech is still going to move faster than foot infantry.

[kaliban]

IndustrialMechs are far too fragile, even when compared to Introtech Mechs. Armed IndustrialMechs tend to explode even faster than the typical Light BattleMechs, because they often can't move fast enough to build up the movement modifier that they need to survive, given their low armor levels.

So no. Straight up BattleMechs only, please.

You say this because you never played a 100ton CargoMech carring a handheld AC/20 and kicking with double damage from Industrial TSM, piloted by a retired elite 82years old mechwarrior in urban scenarios. I did  :)

[Terrace]

But that is not what this scrapings of the bottom of the barrel has to use . . . and that IndiMech is still going to move faster than foot infantry.

Dirtbag Militia is actually a step or two above the level you're talking about. These guys are supposed to be using Introtech to put up a decent fight against units upgraded with lostech, or even Clan technology. Can you honestly say an armed IndustrialMech would be anything more than a momentary speedbump to the SLDF Royal Divisions?

[Colt Ward]

Or they are what the local High Potentate is using to cow the masses . . .

Remember, quantity has a quality all its own.  Sure that medium mech has a gauss rifle that does horrible damage to IndiMech . . . but it has a ton of ammo.  So what happens when I send 2 or 3 lances of converted IndiMechs and a company of cheap armor (hello Scorpions!) out to get that mech?

If you cannot field a true battlemech but can field a converted IndiMech that has a AC/5 or LRM rack which is better- no mech at all or rough approximation of the same abilities under armed & armored?  Some of the armed IndiMechs get quite capable but they are almost as situational as a UrbanMech.  Also a low-resource unit like that is a lot more likely to end up in the militia's hands and the local militia's command SHOULD have a plan somewhere to impress IndiMechs to be armed.

[kaliban]

Dirtbag Militia is actually a step or two above the level you're talking about. These guys are supposed to be using Introtech to put up a decent fight against units upgraded with lostech, or even Clan technology. Can you honestly say an armed IndustrialMech would be anything more than a momentary speedbump to the SLDF Royal Divisions?

I posted a fully converted IndustrialMech in the Fan Designs. You can take your conclusion.

If you compare in a c-bills basis or BV basis, it is better to invest in combat vehicles. But if you assume that you have a plenty of IndustrialMechs available for modification you just spend a fraction of the value to retrofit it. Even not converted or with minimum changes, they remain useful close combat assets if the terrain favors it. Even an unomodified 50ton IndustrialMech with TSM and carrying a "club" can be an annoying problem in urban combat.

[Suralin]

On that note, what's the general opinion of a militia using locally-produced low-tech Support Vees? A cobbled-together LRM flatbed would be quite ineffective, sure, but it could still lob some extra LRMs over a hill without being in too much danger itself. And if nothing else, a rattletrap like that could be a surprising ambush predator with RL/20s.

[kaliban]

On that note, what's the general opinion of a militia using locally-produced low-tech Support Vees? A cobbled-together LRM flatbed would be quite ineffective, sure, but it could still lob some extra LRMs over a hill without being in too much danger itself. And if nothing else, a rattletrap like that could be a surprising ambush predator with RL/20s.

It is reasonable that any planet with millions of people has a minimum industrial base to produce vehicles, even military grade light ones. They will probably depend on import of weapons and small equipment.

Heavy APC, Scorpion Light Tank and Hetzer are typical designs that can produced (legally or ilegally) almost everywhere.

[Colt Ward]

Honestly the Hetzer should be more available than the Scorpion . . . big wheeled armored box with a BFG pointing forward . . . or missiles.

[kaliban]

Honestly the Hetzer should be more available than the Scorpion . . . big wheeled armored box with a BFG pointing forward . . . or missiles.

Yes and no.

Tracked vehicles are in fact simpler than all-wheels traction. Any planet than can produce bulldozers and other construction vehicles has the technical base to produce tracked vehicles.

On the other hand, wheeled combat vehicles may be variants of civilian vehicles (Hetzer is claimed as being that)

Anyway, it becomes a difficult discussion as Battletech is by far not hard sci-fi and Battletech lore is extremely confuse.

It really depends on what you like more. Just yesterday, I was designing a light tank armed with a Heavy Rifle as an indigenous development in Von Strang's World (a Periphery rogue state).

If a crazy dude in North Korea make nukes, why not a dictator that rules a PLANET cannot make a simple battle tank????

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, it was not the tracks that were a problem . . . its the turret, turret ring, recoil compensators and reloading mechanisms all fitting in a turret- and all of it having to function to a certain point to be combat viable rather than a liability.

[Cannonshop]

Or they are what the local High Potentate is using to cow the masses . . .

Remember, quantity has a quality all its own.  Sure that medium mech has a gauss rifle that does horrible damage to IndiMech . . . but it has a ton of ammo.  So what happens when I send 2 or 3 lances of converted IndiMechs and a company of cheap armor (hello Scorpions!) out to get that mech?

If you cannot field a true battlemech but can field a converted IndiMech that has a AC/5 or LRM rack which is better- no mech at all or rough approximation of the same abilities under armed & armored?  Some of the armed IndiMechs get quite capable but they are almost as situational as a UrbanMech.  Also a low-resource unit like that is a lot more likely to end up in the militia's hands and the local militia's command SHOULD have a plan somewhere to impress IndiMechs to be armed.

No 'mech is better than an Indiemech under the Dirtbag Militia concept-the concept isn't to make the least effective militia you can, it's to use "Introtech" gear and builds to become a problem for top-shelf forces...and do so on a tight budget.

That industrialmech represents a sink of resources to arm and 'armor' it, that could be better spent on actually effective elements like vehicles, ammunition, artillery or even infantry troops.

IOW it's not an asset.  think "Finland in the Winter war".  The Finns didn't waste huge amounts of money converting tractors into wannabe-tanks, they spent their very small budget and manpower on weapons and systems that were effective and could be effectively maintained and used in the field.

neither of which is true of an armed Indie mech.

remember, the dirtbag concept revolves around putting up one hell of a fight on a tight budget, not dressing up a farmall as an MBT that can't hold up against...light tanks.  The direction to be looking, is the following:

1. You need to max out every C-bill. this tends to mean commonality of components to maximize every kilogram of storage/production/shipping space and every hour of troop training in your support arm. (aka going to a standardized model for powerplants or chargers so you only have to hire and train a single specialist to maintain them, choosing common calibers or similar weapons to maximize training time/outcome, etc.)
2. You don't have Helm Core Tech to help you out.
3. This means building to a tactical concept that uses a team concept balancing strengths to neutralize your weaknesses.  (aka if you even HAVE 'mechs, they're a single type doing a specific role, other roles being covered by vehicles or infantry.) 

an armed Industrial doesn't do that-it can't compete, so it's smarter not to try that route.  Leave that to the morons from the Republic who don't have a functional grasp of long term survival or much in the way of practical experience, and the occasional Pirate who thinks being a ten meter tall target that is semi-immobile and poorly protected is just the thing to cow the peasants.

in simplest terms, "Dirtbag Militia" is about punching above your weight, it's the planetary miliz giving the Jade Falcons a bloody nose,  not the local Lord stroking his ego with the appearance of capability trying to mask a LACK of capability.

[Daryk]

The more you explain this concept, the happier I am with my Glenmora Planetary Militia...  :)