Round 1 2015 Funding - Primitive Griffin GRF-1A XTRO Primitives IV Funded!!

[B-3]

Here it is,  42mm tall, 16 pieces, Antennae, missile tube, torso, hips, L and R upper leg, L and R lower leg, L and R feet, L and R upper arm, L and R lower arm, L and R shoulder shields.

[abou]

Nice stuff. Too bad you couldn't do a version with a hand without coming across some... legal things. But looks damn good.

[malk2651]

Yep, ordering one of those.  O0

[Azakael]

Sixteen pieces? Whew. With the lower arms separate from the uppers, that might make converting that right arm to have a hand a teensy bit easier to do.

Yep, ordering one of those.  O0

One? I'm pondering about four or five of them.  :D One to replace the unfinished 6S to 3M retrofit, and the rest for my 3015-3025 Mercenary Company using nothing but the primitive models. (And a converted Primitive Wasp to Stinger. Since, y'know... there was that whole General Mechanics vs Earthwerks lawsuit...)

[worktroll]

B3, in the nicest possible way ... too many parts. Sales over time will show whether the highly-posable multiparts outsell simpler minis, but - and I say this as a funder for this sculpt - I probably won't be getting any now. Which is a real shame from my perspective, because it looks nice as could be.

W.

[malk2651]

B3, in the nicest possible way ... too many parts. Sales over time will show whether the highly-posable multiparts outsell simpler minis, but - and I say this as a funder for this sculpt - I probably won't be getting any now. Which is a real shame from my perspective, because it looks nice as could be.

W.

I am of the opposite opinion, but as worktroll says we'll have to see how the sales determine things.

[worktroll]

My opinion is, as always, my opinion and nothing more. I'm just a little sad that in this case it's come out that way for me.

[Scotty]

I feel like most of those are good choices for part breakdowns, but I really have to ask why the shoulder shields are separate?

[Jal Phoenix]

I am also not a fan of jigsaw minis.  I've seen plenty of minis with a wide array of flexibility with far fewer pieces.  I want to spend my time painting, not filing, drilling, pinning, etc. 

[Brother Jim]

I'm going to guess less wear and tear on the molds?

[worktroll]

I believe wear & tear may be similar, but certainly the multi-part minis minimise undercutting & may well make flow of the pewter more reliable.

This approach maximises the posing options for those who actively enjoy that approach. While this doesn't appear to be in a class with the first round of reseen Warhammer, Marauder and Thunderbolt, one hopes for those who will buy it that the contact patches at the joints are large and robust.

[Stinger]

I believe wear & tear may be similar, but certainly the multi-part minis minimise undercutting & may well make flow of the pewter more reliable.

This approach maximises the posing options for those who actively enjoy that approach. While this doesn't appear to be in a class with the first round of reseen Warhammer, Marauder and Thunderbolt, one hopes for those who will buy it that the contact patches at the joints are large and robust.

In general, we go for more pieces than less.  It is more of a recent guidline (not a hard requirement) and you'll see more parts on more minis for poseability.  I generally do two part legs with my minis, though I have some in the works that are 3 parts and others that are 1 part.  And then the Arion has 4 part legs, but we won't talk about that right now...

Now there are two reasons that the shoulder shields are separate.  One deals with undercutting as already discussed.  Makes the mold much harder to tear.  The other reason is aesthetics.   The shields on the Griffin should be upright no matter what the position of the arms.  Take a look at any piece of art of the Griffin and you'll see the shoulder shields upright, and the only way to get that effect is to have them as separate pieces.

[Feenix74]

Looks beautiful B-3  O0

It is a jigsaw puzzle but I will happily give it a go of putting it together as I think the results will be worth the effort.

[worktroll]

In general, we go for more pieces than less.  It is more of a recent guidline (not a hard requirement) and you'll see more parts on more minis for poseability.

I'm very sad to hear that.

May I ask a question of people like Stinger and B-3?

Consider GW. Leaving aside the whole Finecast issue, GW has a two-tier system with basic playing units coming from GW, and highly detailed and much larger pieces coming from Forge World, a wholly owned subsidiary IIRC. Forge World pieces are specifically aimed at the top builders & painters, with details & options pitched high, and priced appropriately. If you just want a Space Marine, you can get the normal mini off the rack in a GW shop. If you want Hubertus Bigend, Chief Librarian of the Ultramuch order in his powered Trousers of Time, you go to Forge World.

Are the fan resculpts seen as pitched at the higher end of the mini competency scale? Or is this a reflection of the sculptor's love for the product, and an intent to offer the users as much optionality as possible? Or something else?

Thanks in advance,

W.

[Feenix74]

I think we are effectively getting this two-tiered approach to minis anyway. With the Intro Box Set and Alpha Strike Lance Set plastic minis which are generally one piece and pitched at being ready to throw on the table immediately. Differentiating the IWM pewter minis from the CGL plastics as being the premium product appears to be a logical way of allowing both to co-exist, so the ability to customise or pose them would help justify the premium that we pay for the IWM pewter minis.

I think the real difficult decision that needs to be made is how to handle variant parts, does IWM throw them all in the blister with the standard/prime mini and end up with a blister that costs a bit more? Or does IWM sell them throught the scrapyard as separate variant bits thus reducing the cost of the standard/prime mini blister but increasing the logistics/admin overhead of managing and supplying variant parts?

[Sartris]

It seems like the design philosophy lately has drifted towards more parts than less on nearly all levels. Single-cast legs are becoming much more rare and more complicated minis like the Dragon II, Zeus X4, 3145 Black Knight, and Atlas III are more commonplace than previously. When I assembled the Agrotera I bought recently, I was actually surprised to find that the head and torso were all one piece and was fully prepared to have to glue the wings onto the head.

[Savage Coyote]

Worktroll,

I'll have to disagree on GW.  A "basic" space marine is nine pieces and is arguably one of their top sellers.  Ten when you add a boltgun.  Eleven with a choice of itty-bitty grenades, satchel pack, or other gizmo (or all of them for thirteen or fourteen) and of course your base.  You do that ten times for a full squad, which you tend to do.  If you do it "right" you also have to shave off a lot of mold lines along the way.  If you are doing a specialized unit (assault, devastator, or whatever) you have a couple more.  The only thing thats static is the legs as they are generally one piece.  The Forge World kits for their standard marines are the exact same, just different molds/details.  two sided torsos, head, two arms, weapon(s), single piece legs, backpack, two shoulder pads.  The collector aspect of Forge World is the larger scale models they do that aren't offered via GW in general.  To say FW handles the modeler friendly multi-part kits and GW does "easy to assemble" side of things is an error IMHO.

To say these are beginner friendly would be a mistake.  Sure a lot of guys slap them together to play, but they are easily in line with the current IWM offerings in terms of parts count.  Thats NOTHING on the large scale vehicles which are full blown models kits.  I will never assemble another Rhino chassis after doing four of them.  Same for the Land Raiders after three.

[Savage Coyote]

While the resculpt Highlander was 14 pieces, other than let my base set and dry so I could glue it down, everything went great.  After snipping the hydrolic shafts on the back of the upper lets to a different point, I lined up the grooves, applied my Walmart Loctite Superglue, held it in place for a five or ten count, and let the fused piece dry.  Unless you are tossing your miniatures into a bag or hulk smashing on them, I rarely ever have breaks.  The only piece I pinned was the torso to the hip piece due to how they fit together.  Arms dropped into slots perfectly and allowed for possibility.  Lots of win all around.

[worktroll]

Speaking on behalf of myself only, it's a barrier to buying, or starting to work with, a mini. I'm at the point where I'll just move on to something that won't require that much assembly, with no guarantee (with my abilities) of getting anything like the stance/look I would like. I'm disappointed that the new minis are moving in ways that will prevent me from aquiring them for myself.

Plastics, while massively easier to modify, are unlikely to ever have the range available through IWM metal minis.

[B-3]

I'm glad you guys like the sculpt!  I have been making these all multi-piece both to allow more posability and to make production as easy as possible.  I have tried to make assembly as easy as possible with large attachment surfaces to ensure a strong joints while remaining faithful to the design.

[malk2651]

I'm glad you guys like the sculpt!  I have been making these all multi-piece both to allow more posability and to make production as easy as possible.  I have tried to make assembly as easy as possible with large attachment surfaces to ensure a strong joints while remaining faithful to the design.

I really liked the joints on the Primitive Rifleman.  Was one of the easier 'Mechs to get glued together.  Honestly I had more trouble with a standard Crab even though it had less parts.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

Worktroll, what I don't understand is you do enjoy modifying miniatures, don't hesitate to cut up miniatures to alter the pose or some such. The multi part models make this so much easier. In my opinion it is much more rewarding to be able to build any pose you want by just assembling the miniature out-of-the-box instead of cutting up the miniature, re-assemble it, fill the gaps, resculpt some joints, ...

Many of the newer, multi-part miniatures try to appeal to "novice" and "expert" modelers alike. Yes, they have many parts, but they also come with "assembly aids". The new Stalker ii for example has nubs that lock the legs in place, making it easy to assemble a "default" pose. And by just filing those nubs off those who like it get a full range of motion in the joint, allowing for assembly in different poses.

While I really enjoy the multi-part miniatures trend, I do admit that we are probably jumping from one extreme to the other. The question is, just how flexible should a miniature be? How flexible must a miniature be to appeal to the widest audience possible? I think with the current miniatures we are heading in the right direction. 

[Stinger]

I'm very sad to hear that.

May I ask a question of people like Stinger and B-3?
*snip*
Are the fan resculpts seen as pitched at the higher end of the mini competency scale? Or is this a reflection of the sculptor's love for the product, and an intent to offer the users as much optionality as possible? Or something else?

Thanks in advance,

W.

More personal choice, but also to offer users as much optionallity as possible. 

For example, I was working on a yet to be named humanoid mech and I was using 2 part legs (joint at the knees).  It was suggested to be for better posability that I also separate the foot and I did so.  No matter what, it was going to be a two piece leg, but it turned into a 3-piece leg.  Ease of assembly is always on our minds, and it is taken into account on every mini.

We are also taking other steps to make sure that even though there are all these multipart legs, they will still be simple to assemble.  Sentinel373 put little notches on the ball joints of the Stalker II to make the parts fit easy, but if someone wanted to make it more poseable, all they need to do is do a little filing.  B-3 makes sure there are large contact patches for parts to attach so they are easy to glue, despite being multipart.  I personally use ball joints sparingly and use cylinder joints more often (but not always), because cylinder joints allow some customization but still are easy to glue.

We each have our own style, but no matter what, we aren't trying to make them needlessly complicated, just more accessible across a range of skill sets.  We want a mini that a newbie can pose in a position besides standing upright without needing a jewlers saw and greenstuff.

[Mech42ace]

That griffin turned out beautiful B-3, Will need to pick a few of these up!

[Maingunnery]

I really liked the joints on the Primitive Rifleman.  Was one of the easier 'Mechs to get glued together.  Honestly I had more trouble with a standard Crab even though it had less parts.

Indeed, the number of parts says little about how much skill is needed to put a mini together.

[Wrangler]

Nice stuff. Too bad you couldn't do a version with a hand without coming across some... legal things. But looks damn good.

The line up of Miniatures next to the Primitive Griffin may offer a kit-bash solution.  Wolverine II gun arm could be used for that, just need somehow swap off the shield guards, you have yourself pistol totten Griffin.

I can't wait to get one these things.

[worktroll]

Worktroll, what I don't understand is you do enjoy modifying miniatures, don't hesitate to cut up miniatures to alter the pose or some such.

It's an entirely fair point. At the end of the day, it may just be a personal foible, but three-part legs provide too little "structure" for my comfort. Most of my mods involve freeing one leg - consider the Shadow Cat I posted recently. The mini's stable on the fixed leg, and I've got better control over how I want to pose the other (usually just swung back). By comparison, I still feel adrift looking at my Reseen Thud, despite pinning just about everything except the cockpit.

I accept the Thud's a bad exemplar. The multi-part Kodiak II got a thumbs up in terms of the way the legs go together. But I suppose I'm more comfortable bending what already exists, than making something ab initio.

And I also feel that if someone like me finds multi-parts intimidating, how will people with less experience regard them? Which I see as potentially impacting on sales. But that's based on my personal assessment that there are significantly more potential buyers with low interest in heavy posability out there than there are those  potential buyers who really want, and can benefit from the high posablity offered by these new minis.

(And I can't help but suspect a bit of 'confirmation bias' within the sculptor community. They are, by definition, possessed of powers of construction far above those of ordinary mortals O0 That comment is completely without sarcasm, tongue firmly out of cheek. The little modding I do confirms how much these guys can do with what they do.)

Now my ideal is a two-tier metal option system - like you have the initial Reseen Warhammer, in all it's "expert grade" glory, and then you have the Warhammer 8K, with less options but less of a challenge. The Marauder 9L exists for those who want it, but the 5S/9R is approachable at a lower level of expertise. Whether such an approach is viable for IWM, I can't say - but I don't see a "monkey-model" Primitive Griffin being funded either.

I've had a kind offer from someone out this way to assemble one for me, so I will end up getting one after all.

[Feenix74]

And if that offer falls through worktroll, I will happily assemble one for you. I will warn you in advance, I prefer my minis to be in a static standing "at ease" or "at attention" pose as opposed to a more dynamic pose (it makes the storage, transportation and playing on hex maps with the nowadays oversized minis much easier). In my mind's eye, BT minis to be more like chess pieces and therefore I do not need them to be in a dynamic pose. However, I understand the advantages of minis that do lend themselves to being posed and/or customised, therefore I happily accept that there is a bit more work to put them together as a result.

[Baron RedSkull]

And if that offer falls through worktroll, I will happily assemble one for you. I will warn you in advance, I prefer my minis to be in a static standing "at ease" or "at attention" pose as opposed to a more dynamic pose (it makes the storage, transportation and playing on hex maps with the nowadays oversized minis much easier). In my mind's eye, BT minis to be more like chess pieces and therefore I do not need them to be in a dynamic pose. However, I understand the advantages of minis that do lend themselves to being posed and/or customised, therefore I happily accept that there is a bit more work to put them together as a result.

I will agree with you but in a different way. When it comes to using the minis on the table I find I like my minis to be in a mostly static pose with guns facing forward. But when it comes to displays like the annual CSO diorama, those dynamic poses combined with the scenery can really tell a story within a snap shot.

[Feenix74]

mostly static pose with guns facing forward.

 O0

Agree that the dynamic poses are great for creating dioramas.