Women's world cup..

[garhkal]

Wow.  I thought the opener with France, of 4-0, was awesome..  BUT seeing the US Ladies put 13 (a new record for the world cup) past Thailand, was thrilling...
Good on them gals!

[Daryk]

13?!  :o

[Firesprocket]

So that's a goal, what, ever 4 minutes not counting extra time?

[Kidd]

Congrats

That looks one-sided as all hell

Don't know how true this is in the modern age, but I heard there used to be a gentleman's agreement of sorts that teams would not score more than 7 or 8 goals if they clearly outclassed the opponent

P.S. Alex Morgan pushes all my buttons :D

[Sharpnel]

So that's a goal, what, ever 4 minutes not counting extra time?

More like a goal every 7 minutes as a game is 90 minutes long.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That wa just brutal.  Thailand didn't deserve a humiliation like that.

[Sharpnel]

Alex Mrogan said it was about Goal Differential, which is bull shit when considering their group. At worst they go 2-0-1, with a possible tie vs Sweden. This will still get them to the elimination round. What made this worse IMO was all of the celebrating going on on the sidelines when they keep on scoring goals. Personally, I thought it was poor sportsmanship by the US women's team.

[Nightlord01]

Alex Mrogan said it was about Goal Differential, which is bull shit when considering their group. At worst they go 2-0-1, with a possible tie vs Sweden. This will still get them to the elimination round. What made this worse IMO was all of the celebrating going on on the sidelines when they keep on scoring goals. Personally, I thought it was poor sportsmanship by the US women's team.

This I can understand. I've seen one sided drubbings in person, even when it was my team, I didn't particularly want to cheer towards the end. They never let up, but I wasn't going to reward them for walking all over the other team, not much of a test of skill.

[Kit deSummersville]

Alex Mrogan said it was about Goal Differential, which is bull shit when considering their group.

Ask Australia about assuming how things will go in group play. It's not the US's fault that FIFA has goal differential as a tie breaker and only 3 substitutions.

[garhkal]

So that's a goal, what, ever 4 minutes not counting extra time?

Well iirc of the time line, it went 3 goals in the first half, then 4 RIGHT in the first 10 min of the 2nd half, then the other 6 strewn out through the rest of the 2nd half...

Don't know how true this is in the modern age, but I heard there used to be a gentleman's agreement of sorts that teams would not score more than 7 or 8 goals if they clearly outclassed the opponent

One of the commentors while watching, made a suggestion around that.  MOST of the others lambasted him for it though
Me though, i can see something like that at the kid level (Junior high and under), just to help build up esteem, but not at professional levels.

[Sartris]

can't help but see the six goals after the 74th minute as just piling on. it's not like that 7-0 lead was in jeopardy (or the goal differential tiebreaker)

[Kit deSummersville]

The Thai coach apparently thought highly of the Americans for treating them like a professional team and not lesser opponents to be pitied.

In football, everybody is following the rules, so our opponent is trying their best. The US team was very good. We don't have any excuse and we accept that they are better. We know where we are. Playing the US is not easy, and we know we have to improve in every aspect and improve in our mentality, and the players' experience cannot be compared to them.

[nckestrel]

I’ve never lost a soccer game 13-0, but I’ve lost several 8-0 and 7-0. I didn’t care they scored more goals.  It was our job to stop them. I wanted the opportunity to get it right, even if it was just once. Or get the one “consolation” goal.
I did ha e a tendency to complain about “normal” fouls more than usual.  I was frustrated. But I didn’t want them to stop playing or just go through the motions.
Baseball is different, it needs a mercy rule or tie game never ends. But soccer, play all out till the whistle blows. On both sides. You came to play, take every opportunity to do so.
I’ve also played on basketball teams that often had to play three of four v five because of no shows. We never asked a team to hold back. The only time we didn’t give our best was when they forced us to forfeit with only two players..

If they want a mercy rule, make it a rule. Seven goal differential, game over. Players (and coaches) shouldn’t hold back.

[Kidd]

There is a reason why I said, "gentleman's agreement", because there is no rule per se. Just like there is no real rule defining what is and isn't "sportsmanlike".

Though I note that in recent times this has become less of a norm. Germany 8-0 Saudi Arabia comes immediately to mind.

There's other media coverage on this out there now... Oh and the gender card is already being played... Sigh.

P.s. in football also a common yellow card offence is excessive or inappropriate celebration.

[Kit deSummersville]

Germany 8-0 Saudi Arabia comes immediately to mind.

I was thinking Germany 7-1 Brazil and I don't remember anyone fretting over that one.

[nckestrel]

Germany just beat Ukraine 8-0 the same day. 

There is a reason why I said, "gentleman's agreement", because there is no rule per se. Just like there is no real rule defining what is and isn't "sportsmanlike".

You don't want a rule, you just want to judge.

P.s. in football also a common yellow card offence is excessive or inappropriate celebration.

Celebrating after a goal is never, by itself, excessive or inappropriate.  FIFA has specific guidelines for what a yellow card should be given for in celebrations.  Taking off your shirt, jumping a fence.  Nothing the US did came anywhere near close to being something FIFA has given yellow cards for.

[Sartris]

I was thinking Germany 7-1 Brazil and I don't remember anyone fretting over that one.

Everyone was too busy basking the the delicious schadenfreude of one of the most overhyped sides getting absolutely dusted (just ask the Brazilians how good they thought they were). Also there’s the notion that going full tilt when you don’t have to puts you at risk to pop a hamstring or incur a concussion. If you lose one of your best players running up the score, your coach is probably looking for a new job if you lose down the road.

While I’m not nuts about the result the one main defense I’ll offer for soccer over other sports is that you can’t wholesale sub your reserves. In American football when you’re up 40 points you can send in your third string players and let the stars rest.

[Kidd]

You don't want a rule, you just want to judge.

Fine. We have established there is no rule.

Judgement is employed when there is no rule.

[Sharpnel]

And Francejust stole a win vs Norway on a poorly called penalty in the box. It's good to know that referee-ing is as bad in the Women's as it is in the Men's.

[Firesprocket]

Baseball is different, it needs a mercy rule or tie game never ends.

I am not in a place where I can consolidate the data right now, but I'm fairly certain this is BS.  I would be generally surprised if a game goes longer than 11 innings frequently over the course of the regular season.  Similarly a team that is crushing another isn't likely to do it in a game time that is likely 30 minutes over the average.

[nckestrel]

Typo, I meant the game, not a tie game.
There is in fact a mercy rule in most baseball/softball games at 7.  It’s because of you can’t get the other team out, the game goes on forever. And in a situation where the skill level is on the difference of US-Thailand game was, that would be exactly the situation. Though I’m not sure pro leagues use that rule.
But that’s specific to how baseball plays.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_rule

[Firesprocket]

Gotcha.  The reason that will never happen in a pro game is lost revenue from concessions that would be sold during regulations.  Same would go for FIFA.  No chance the venue is going to support shutting down early ND lose out on revenue.

[nckestrel]

Gotcha.  The reason that will never happen in a pro game is lost revenue from concessions that would be sold during regulations.  Same would go for FIFA.  No chance the venue is going to support shutting down early ND lose out on revenue.

I hadn’t thought of that. Good point.

[garhkal]

If they want a mercy rule, make it a rule. Seven goal differential, game over. Players (and coaches) shouldn’t hold back.

I can see having mercy rules, for peewee leagues, not pro sport teams..

There is a reason why I said, "gentleman's agreement", because there is no rule per se. Just like there is no real rule defining what is and isn't "sportsmanlike".

Though I note that in recent times this has become less of a norm. Germany 8-0 Saudi Arabia comes immediately to mind.

YEa, i don't remember folks saying "Maybe they should have stopped the game"< when germany won 11-0 back in 07. 

P.s. in football also a common yellow card offence is excessive or inappropriate celebration.

Yup.  I got one on my school's team for doing the 'take the shirt off and running around' after i scored.. 
KNEW about the getting a yellow if i did it.  DID it anyway.. Took the punishment that came.

And Francejust stole a win vs Norway on a poorly called penalty in the box. It's good to know that referee-ing is as bad in the Women's as it is in the Men's.

Agreed.  I've already seen at least 5 penalties that SHOULD have been given, but weren't, and one that DID get given that shouldn't have..

There's times i'd LOVE to see the teams be able to give a red to the REF after a game for Crummy refereeing..

I hadn’t thought of that. Good point.

Hence why i can see having mercy rules, for kiddie/school games (Junior highs and below), but not really when you get to the pros.

[nckestrel]

Note I’m not advocating for the mercy rule. I’m just saying that if you want the US to not run up the score, then make it a rule. Judging them afterwards for playing their hearts out to the end is wrong.  You play your best, at all times. 

[Feenix74]

Ask Australia about assuming how things will go in group play. It's not the US's fault that FIFA has goal differential as a tie breaker and only 3 substitutions.

No assumptions made by the Matildas, we are going to struggle this World Cup, especially after our Football Federation of Australia decide to sack the Matildas Head Coach 6 months before World Cup based on unspecified "team cultural issues".

I guess they are the same team cultural issues that saw the Matildas to being 4th ranked team in the world and success in the Tournament of Nations . . .  ::)

[Colt Ward]

I have no problems with what the US women did, as it seems to be part of the team's culture.  Now if they get into the finals say and are not celebrating their goals or are not celebrating goals with the whole team when they are losing then it becomes questionable.  I give the Thai coach major props, that is the right attitude to carry forward.  Weirdest conversation I ever heard between two coaches was when the team I was on as a freshman traveled to play a school two tiers higher (1A vs 3A), and that coach told ours he appreciated being able to play against us, that his team could learn a lot (16-2?).  The US Women's team (or coach) is aware of the rules and they are playing to the point of not leaving anything to chance- that is the way to play and plan out participation.  From what I heard afterwards, the US Women talked with the Thai players and offered them encouragement- not what you would typically call unsportswomanlike conduct.

HS baseball I was on the winning side of a 35-0 game that got called in 5 innings for the mercy rule, freshmen were playing by that fifth inning- mostly because we knew the game would get called instead of going to seven.  I sat through the stands when my football team was losing on the road 77-0, and was pissed off with all the commentators who said the winning team exhibited poor sportsmanship by running up the score.  When you send in the 3rd string, keep running the SAME EXACT PLAY, and try to burn up the clock, not much else you can do to play out the game.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I'm reminded of the Dream Team in '92, and both the sheer stomping they delivered (averaging 44 points more than their opponents among all matches) as well as the sheer joy the other countries had playing against the best American players.  Yeah, they were all slaughtered, but they were proud to just have shown up against them, and there was a lot of respect on all sides.

On a PERSONAL basis, it's early in the World Cup and from a strategic position, after it got to 4 or 5-0 I would have told the girls to back off, but that's just to preserve their strength and not go all-out needlessly and risk injury in a game that's already won.  Save it for the next rounds, as it were; take it easy and hold your lead and defend hard but don't do anything that might bite you for future rounds.  But that's just strategy, and I'm all for this level of competition going to the bitter end.

Besides, God and Pele alone know what kind of wild, weird upset is gonna happen in minute 80.

[TigerShark]

I think it's a lesson to the governing body that the tournament itself should be downsized. There just isn't that many talented teams who have a chance on the world stage, especially in women's sports right now. Eventually that will become the case as it catches on, but that day isn't today. This was the equivalent of having a AAA baseball team in the majors -- They're flat-out not ready to be there.

[nckestrel]

Thailand beat Indonesia 13-0 a year ago.  Cambodia 11-0 a year ago. Malasia and Timor-Leste 8-0.  They lost to Japan only 2-0 and China 2-0 less than a year ago.
Note that 13-0 was in a friendly, ie there was no tournament that was tracking goals scored for a tiebreaker.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand_women%27s_national_football_team

Thailand never asked the US to back off, Thailand has never backed off when they were in the same situation.

[rebs]

And asking our players to hold back can engender bad habits that could come back to haunt us when we do need a full effort in the latter stages of play. It's better not to hold back and just let the girls play, come what may. 

[Sartris]

I'm reminded of the Dream Team in '92, and both the sheer stomping they delivered (averaging 44 points more than their opponents among all matches) as well as the sheer joy the other countries had playing against the best American players.  Yeah, they were all slaughtered, but they were proud to just have shown up against them, and there was a lot of respect on all sides.

the '92 team was a global revenge tour for prior officiating injustices visited on our previously college player-stocked teams (and some suggestion from the soviets that they were better at basketball). the sole objective was total slaughter from the outset.

jordan and barkley were throwing what are now tech 1-level elbows that entire run. the price of admission to play against your heroes i guess.

[garhkal]

I'm reminded of the Dream Team in '92, and both the sheer stomping they delivered (averaging 44 points more than their opponents among all matches) as well as the sheer joy the other countries had playing against the best American players.  Yeah, they were all slaughtered, but they were proud to just have shown up against them, and there was a lot of respect on all sides.

Not been there myself, but i too would have loved it if our school team i was on, played against someone a lot more skilled (say college level), even if we lost, the experience alone would hav been good..

On a PERSONAL basis, it's early in the World Cup and from a strategic position, after it got to 4 or 5-0 I would have told the girls to back off, but that's just to preserve their strength and not go all-out needlessly and risk injury in a game that's already won.  Save it for the next rounds, as it were; take it easy and hold your lead and defend hard but don't do anything that might bite you for future rounds.  But that's just strategy, and I'm all for this level of competition going to the bitter end.

Besides, God and Pele alone know what kind of wild, weird upset is gonna happen in minute 80.

True that..  Look at Italy vs Australia..   The Aussies were slated by most to win..

[ANS Kamas P81]

And on the topic of 'upsets at the end of the game' I point to last night's Padres game.  8th inning starts, San Diego is down 11-4.  They tie it up and in the 12th inning surge ahead with a 16-12 victory after being down by seven runs just a few innings ago. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNLUS0o69wQ

[garhkal]

Pity i've never been a baseball fan.  That would have been something to watch.

[Sharpnel]

Pity i've never been a baseball fan.  That would have been something to watch.

Not if you are a Rockies fan like me, It happened again today as the Rockies were up 13-8 in the 6th and manage to lose for 14-13.

[Sartris]

Baseball also lacks a near-universal constant - a clock.

USA vs Thailand was closer to GA Tech 222 vs 0 Cumberland than the Bills coming back from down 35-3 at half to beat the oilers in the ‘92 playoffs. The two soccer sides were not on the same competitive level. The baseball analogy might be more apt if you had a major league team losing to a low A fall league club in come from behind fashion

[rebs]

Congratulations to Team USA for their 2-0 victory today over the Netherlands in the final match of World Cup play.

[Sharpnel]

anything less than victory for USA would be seen as an absolute failure. Their victory was pre-ordained. The rest of the word still lags behind the US Women/ They had reached near parity just over a decade ago, but they have slipped back or the USA has had a resurgence to dominance. Still, there is too much arrogance on this team.

[Daryk]

There are WAY too many Rule 4 issues in play here... Am I happy my country won an international competition?  Yes, by all means.  Can we discuss WHY we won without diving hopelessly into politics?  Sadly, no.  At least judging by the press in general...

[Kidd]

Congrats!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There are WAY too many Rule 4 issues in play here... Am I happy my country won an international competition?  Yes, by all means.  Can we discuss WHY we won without diving hopelessly into politics?  Sadly, no.  At least judging by the press in general...

Politics and sports have always been entangled.

[Scotty]

Still, there is too much arrogance on this team.

Arrogance is unearned confidence.

This team has earned it a few times.

[nckestrel]

Arrogance is unearned confidence.

This team has earned it a few times.

And that’s the tea.

(I’m young and hip now, quaff?)

[Sharpnel]

And the US Men just lost to Mexico in the Gold Cup final for the 5th time. It's Mexico' 8th Gold Cup victory.

[garhkal]

Politics and sports have always been entangled.

Not from my perspective..  I don't think sports got political till the mid 2000s.. 

Arrogance is unearned confidence.

This team has earned it a few times.

That they have.  The US Mens team could take some great lessons on how to properly pass, and keep the ball from the ladies..

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not from my perspective..  I don't think sports got political till the mid 2000s.

It's been going on throughout recorded history.  The Olympics, both current and the ancient Greek version have always been heavily political, there have been rivalries between teams based on political affiliations (like capitalist vs communist countries).  The process of trying to get a professional sports team to move or be formed in a particular city has always been quite political to the point that politicians have made it campaign platforms.  And as for the type of political issues being brought up this time, well, all I have to say is Jackie Robinson.

[Kidd]

And as for the type of political issues being brought up this time, well, all I have to say is Jackie Robinson.

That may be what some people are trying to invoke.

But then again, that in itself is a political game. See also: Venus Williams.

[I am Belch II]

The team was very political and very arrogant. Not the whole team just a couple of major mouths. I'm very glad they won and hope the best. But the attitudes show-boating and grandstanding and the way high pedestal that people have put the team on has really tarnish the win. IMO

[Kit deSummersville]

I thought it was interesting that the team had to defeat all of the European nations that had colonies that formed the US on their way to the championship, aside from Russia.

[nckestrel]

The team was very political and very arrogant. Not the whole team just a couple of major mouths. I'm very glad they won and hope the best. But the attitudes show-boating and grandstanding and the way high pedestal that people have put the team on has really tarnish the win. IMO

"Last month, Rapinoe told the Washington Post’s Liz Clarke about what she called the team’s “double-earn.” “I have to do everything I have to do on the field. Then I have to do everything else to prove to you that that’s enough,” Rapinoe said. “I have to somehow justify myself or convince you that what I just did was amazing. And I already just did it.”
https://slate.com/culture/2019/07/uswnt-excellence-womens-world-cup-final.html

When the NWSL has enough attendance to not have teams folding and can take care of their players, maybe they can afford to be a little more humble. Until then, they still have a long ways to go to convince the world that they are "worthy", and being humble isn't going to accomplish that. Particularly when there's still practically zero in terms of NWSL marketing. They have to sell themselves. They have to be the best and they have to tell the world they are. Their careers depend on it. The future of pro women's soccer depends on it.

[Scotty]

The team was very political and very arrogant. Not the whole team just a couple of major mouths. I'm very glad they won and hope the best. But the attitudes show-boating and grandstanding and the way high pedestal that people have put the team on has really tarnish the win. IMO

None of this would be "arrogance" for a men's team.

[Nav_Alpha]

So, we went to the Women’s World Cup (just left Lyon a couple hours ago for Paris and eventually home) and it was a lot of fun.
I’m Australian- so it was sad to see the Matildas bow out - but glad we made it through to Round of 16.
The last couple of games, which saw the US on their way to victory were interesting - they were just so obviously superior to the British and while they beat the Dutch convincingly, the score didn’t reflect how well they Dutch played. For a while, that match could have gone either way.

But regardless - the vibe in the stadiums was great - so many Americans, so you typically felt out numbered, regardless of who you were supporting.
Great fun though!

[TigerShark]

"Last month, Rapinoe told the Washington Post’s Liz Clarke about what she called the team’s “double-earn.” “I have to do everything I have to do on the field. Then I have to do everything else to prove to you that that’s enough,” Rapinoe said. “I have to somehow justify myself or convince you that what I just did was amazing. And I already just did it.”
https://slate.com/culture/2019/07/uswnt-excellence-womens-world-cup-final.html

When the NWSL has enough attendance to not have teams folding and can take care of their players, maybe they can afford to be a little more humble. Until then, they still have a long ways to go to convince the world that they are "worthy", and being humble isn't going to accomplish that. Particularly when there's still practically zero in terms of NWSL marketing. They have to sell themselves. They have to be the best and they have to tell the world they are. Their careers depend on it. The future of pro women's soccer depends on it.

Braggadocio has done little to improve their numbers. Even the World Cup final was sparsely populated (it looked like about 60% seat attendance, from what I could see; probably more in paid attendance). This is being advertised (by players, by media, hell, even the Nike ad) as a fight against some massive, glass wall keeping the USWNT from commercial success. The fact is, simply, that women don't attend women's soccer events. Or, at least not enough of them to make it profitable. "Support" in the way of memes and re-Tweets doesn't generate revenue. And that's all the effort a lot of people are willing to put in.

Until people actually buy a ticket, attend the game, and buy merch, nothing will change. And even then, it won't be enough, unless it's consistent. The NC Courage's stadium seats 10,000. Last year, their average attendance was only slightly over 50% of that mark. To put that in comparison, the LA Galaxy drew ~24,000/game in 2018, and their stadium capacity is 27,000. With those kinds of numbers, you're not going to reach parity.

[Bosefius]

Locked pending review