Author Topic: Bondsmen: Random thoughts  (Read 5354 times)

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #30 on: 05 September 2023, 16:32:27 »
A Khan and a Star Captain will have vastly different depths of knowledge.  A captured Khan could possibly hand the head and heart of their former Clan to their new Clan.
The Falcon in question was a Star Admiral, equivalent in rank to a Galaxy Commander.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #31 on: 05 September 2023, 20:56:27 »
But in the unlikely case a Khan or SaKhan gets made bondsman: isn't he or she obliged to give information to his or her captor? Or are there rules that gives said bondsmen some wiggle room? In Operation Audacity the Wolves-in-Exile capture a Falcon cruiser with the help of Archer's Avengers including the crew and the former Falcon captain gives his Wolf-in-Exile superior information about their opponent they are battling later on.

This obligation seems to vary from author to author. In the original clan invasion trilogy, the bondsmen taken at Twycross specifically refused to divulge information about their former clan. And of course, Stackpole wrote both that account and Malicious Intent, while Pardoe wrote Operation Audacity.

And... umm... sometimes authors can be particularly pushy about their own interpretation of lore bits.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #32 on: 06 September 2023, 09:40:49 »
Maybe, but we simply don't know for a fact one way or the other... and Malicious Intent makes it pretty clear that this is pretty damn low on the honorable scale.

Christu is begging for his life, trying to conjure value to Vlad.  Twycross is Clan to IS, with the Clan forces of that time looking down on the Spheriod warriors.

Operation Audacity with the Aegis is also a bit off . . . while Archer disables the ship and takes their surrender, he then gives it to his allies who have the experience.  So the Warden Wolf officer is the bondholder of the former Falcon.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #33 on: 06 September 2023, 13:38:36 »
Probably also depends on the clan the bondsman or woman comes from. For example Hellions or Blood spirits are somehwat difficult to integrate

Phantom000

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #34 on: 29 November 2023, 08:58:42 »
I always thought that being taken as a bondsman was dependent on being taken alive; warriors have the option of fighting to the death to avoid being taken as a bondsman.

I have another random thought.

Does a bondsman have the ability to win their own freedom? Like if a bondsman can defeat who ever claimed them in a trial the bondsman is free to go? Sorta like a trial of possession for their own freedom?


Alan Grant

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #35 on: 29 November 2023, 09:51:13 »
Yeah if they can manage to die first, that does bypass all talk of bondsmen. But not all manage to do that, or even endeavor to. If they haven't won a bloodname yet they may still hold out hope of things of accomplishing that or other goals. It's a very individual choice and situation that you can't generalize too much. The details of the specific person and situation matter a great deal. But sure, they could endeavor to make that their "death in battle" moment.

Moving on to your "can they win their freedom?" question...

No, but someone can turn around and declare a Trial of Possession for that individual.

We've seen a few individuals who hoped that would happen. There was a former Smoke Jag among Clan Wolf in FM: CC who had been performing well in the hopes that his former Clan would reclaim him. But (that book was written just on the eve of the Jags biting the dust) seeing the sudden turn against that Clan he was working to prove his loyalty to the Wolves.

It was also a stated reason why at least some of the Mandrills were so uncooperative. They hoped they would be reclaimed by their former Kindraa.

But let's set that aside and zero in on your real question. No they can't challenge for their freedom. Once a bondsman they essentially lose a lot of rights. They aren't warriors anymore. So other warriors don't have to respect or respond to any demands that they may make for a Trial. The whole bondsman thing is meant to shred their arrogance, their sense of self-importance, it's meant to tear them down to basics so the bondholder and the Clan can rebuild them into a loyal Clan warrior of their new Clan.

In the interim, it's like most of their rights as a warrior and even a human being have been suspended. They are even often treated worse than members of lower castes. If they could just leverage their rights as warriors they'd all squirm out of the process somehow and that would defeat the point.

One way of thinking about it... it's like a throwback to their sibko days. When all they could do was salute and say "Aff Sir" and take whatever pain, punishment, education and orders the sibko trainer threw at them.

I struggle to remember a specific example but I feel like I've read in fiction at least one situation where a sibko cadet tried to challenge their trainer to a formal Trial. The trainer's response was to interrupt the cadet by punching the sibko cadet in the face and explain that the trainer was under no obligation to accept a Trial from a mere cadet.

Same attitude with a bondsman.

Caveat: I have read of situations where a cadet challenged a trainer, who accepted the challenge, and then won. But even that didn't trigger them to become an instant warrior or anything like that. It's usually just mentioned as a mark of a possible ristar that the cadet was that skilled, that young. It was a symbolic victory worthy of some bragging rights, little more. And the trainer was under no requirement to honor or recognize such a Trial in the first place and doing so was probably also just another way to test and evaluate the cadet's potential. It's also probably a useful way to teach a cadet the Clan Way and expose them to the reality of Trials in a fairly controlled setting. Over meager things that don't really matter that much. That's a stark difference compared to working with a bondsman who is eager to regain their freedom and warrior status. So, there are conceptual similarities that I thought worth mentioning, but I'll also be the first to call out that that it's far from being the same thing.
« Last Edit: 29 November 2023, 10:35:29 by Alan Grant »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #36 on: 29 November 2023, 12:29:36 »
Being claimed as a bondsman implies having already been defeated, so “fighting to the death to avoid being taken” doesn’t make a lot of sense.  I mean, warriors don’t start a trial with “and if I win I’m taking you as bondsman.”  They shoot your mech to pieces and then, if they were impressed enough with your skill, they take you as a bondsman while you float down on a parachute or sit there in a cooling heap of salvage that used to be a mech.
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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #37 on: 29 November 2023, 12:52:11 »
I'm not sure we're actually debating anything anymore. At this point I feel like we're getting lost in semantics. Like the exact chronology of events of a battle and when a person becomes a bondsman.

It happens when the defeated is taken bondsman by the victor.

And there's a lot that leads up to those conditions existing. Like the fighting having happened, and someone being defeated.

And the warriors involved, most of the time, they know exactly when it has transpired and they follow the script demanded by Clan honor and convention. The average Clan warrior is very direct and honest about all of this. If they are still conscious and still have a comm. line, they often communicate directly with their victor, declaring that the other party has won and offering themselves as bondsman. We've seen this happen many times.

Alternately, yes, we've seen warriors, seeking an honorable death in battle, doing virtually suicidal things rather than conceding defeat, knowing full well the opponent's next move will likely result in their death. In that situation too, often the warriors of both sides know exactly what is happening. When a warrior sees that their opponent is refusing to concede and engaging in obviously reckless and suicidal behavior, they often understand what is happening. Granting an opponent an honorable death in battle can be an honorable act to a Clan Warrior.

Don't overthink it.
« Last Edit: 29 November 2023, 12:53:43 by Alan Grant »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #38 on: 29 November 2023, 14:22:30 »
There is also the option of bondsref. A warrior who is about to be captured can perform bondsref by either suicide or by the hand of an accomplice.
Bondsref after getting made bondsman is considered dishonorable but is not frowned upon should the bondholder give his permission

Phantom000

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #39 on: 29 November 2023, 15:21:33 »
They shoot your mech to pieces and then, if they were impressed enough with your skill, they take you as a bondsman while you float down on a parachute or sit there in a cooling heap of salvage that used to be a mech.

What if you had a warrior that just, flat out, refused to surrender? Like you destroy their mech but after they eject they pull out a katanna and just keep swinging like Elizabeth Hazen? Has that ever happened?

AlphaMirage

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #40 on: 29 November 2023, 15:31:47 »
I mean almost certainly, probably with Mandrills. We are talking about a Warrior society with strict shame and honor mechanisms.

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #41 on: 29 November 2023, 15:52:49 »
Jags did that too.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #42 on: 29 November 2023, 15:57:14 »
What if you had a warrior that just, flat out, refused to surrender? Like you destroy their mech but after they eject they pull out a katanna and just keep swinging like Elizabeth Hazen? Has that ever happened?

That and versions of that yes. The last Smoke Jag Khan talked to Victor about ending an opponent's life in his Trial of Bloodright because they both knew the other had been beaten and the opponent wanted that warrior's death rather than live with the shame of defeat. Diana Pryde fought a mechwarrior in her own Trial of Bloodright who lost the fight, then let himself be consumed by I think lava in his 'mech rather than trying to save himself.

These examples seem to pop up a lot in a Trial of Bloodright literature, which kinda makes sense because of how important a Bloodname is. But they prove the point that sometimes a warrior just choses death.

They could also achieve the same result, not by giving up but the opposite, fighting in the manner you described. Past the point of it making sense. Like trying to fight a 'mech on foot, after ejecting, with no weapon at all.

Solahma warriors (w/machines, don't mean infantry) making that choice. Bloodnamed warriors deciding this is the natural end of their lives. Warriors who just watched all of their lifelong trothkin die and have decided to share the same fate. Absolutely.

And like I said in the previous post. The victorious warrior(s) see this crazy behavior happening, and grant the request for an honorable death in battle by pulling the trigger.

Outside of these kinds of situations, what is perhaps more normal and typical is the defeated recognizing that the Trial is lost, and submitting to their new Clan. Even in defeat, behaving that way is perceived as honorable as that is the Way of the Clans. So by behaving that way, the warrior-probably -about-to-be-a-bondsman is carrying out a time honored ritual among the Clans.

But Clan Warriors also do want that honorable death in battle eventually..... so you know at that critical moment, there may be a choice to make here.
« Last Edit: 29 November 2023, 16:12:11 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #43 on: 30 November 2023, 08:46:49 »
What if you had a warrior that just, flat out, refused to surrender? Like you destroy their mech but after they eject they pull out a katanna and just keep swinging like Elizabeth Hazen? Has that ever happened?
There was Phelan's bloodname trial against Vlad that ended with the two of them punched out of their 'Mechs going at it with fists.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #44 on: 30 November 2023, 09:21:41 »
There was Phelan's bloodname trial against Vlad that ended with the two of them punched out of their 'Mechs going at it with fists.

Someone's probably going to call that out as a weird exception and not a good example, but I'm going to take a position contrary to that and call it a weird situation that demonstrates what the norms actually are by bouncing around within the norms playhouse like an inflatable bouncy castle and touching on where the boundary lines are multiple times.

Vlad and Phelan squared off in light 'mechs. Phelan disabled Vlad's machine with weapons fire and it went down. Phelan called on him to concede. That's what is proper and normal here among the ritualistic Clan Warriors. If Vlad had conceded it would be over, and if this Trial had been a Trial between warriors of different Clans in a Trial of Possession or something, instead of a Trial of Bloodright, then Vlad would have ended up Phelan's bondsman. Vlad instead fires off a verbal insult, climbs out of his cockpit and makes it clear he's not conceding.

At that moment, Phelan have just pulled the trigger, fired a 'mech grade laser, melted Vlad's body from the hips up, and declared victory. As odd as it sounds, that would have been seen as acceptable. Vlad refused to concede and was pushing it in an obviously aggressive manner, so the Trial wasn't over. If Phelan had shot him down, it wouldn't have been seen as dishonorable. The proper Clan Warrior mentality here would be to see Vlad as a warrior seeking a warrior's death and Phelan granting him that.

But instead Phelan returns the verbal sparring, dismounts, and is determined to keep the Trial going with fists. On foot staring at each other, Vlad notes the pistol Phelan is wearing. Phelan tosses aside the pistol aside, making it clear that he wants this to be a fair hand-to-hand fight to finally settle this (and by "this" I don't just mean the Trial, it's become bigger than that, a longstanding feud between them).

So that is Phelan demonstrating that he's willing to continue the fight. Not for ritualistic suicide, but in a legitimate and fair way. That's a less common path because the original Trial was an augmented one in 'mechs. So kinda weird situation, Phelan didn't have to keep this going, but he chose to, but everyone is still behaving like good Clan Warriors.

Vlad actually goes for the tossed aside pistol. He turns it on Phelan and pulls the trigger. At this point Vlad could have won and the win would have been recognized. Unconventional situation and victory to be sure, but Phelan would have looked quite foolish for having set up the conditions of this (he didn't have to dismount from his machine, he could have melted Vlad's body already and declared victory). The majority consensus among the other warriors would be that Phelan should have blown Vlad's body apart with a 'mech grade laser rather than dismount. By getting out of his 'mech, Phelan was accepting whatever Vlad would do next. He was by action, agreeing to fight Vlad on the new terms Vlad was basically proposing, without much clarity as to what those terms actually were (such as whether they involved a pistol or not). So everyone is still being honorable here, perhaps a bit trickster, but still within norms.

But the pistol clicks, it's empty. Phelan explains that he gave his ammo to an Elemental because supplies got so scarce (this was immediately after the Battle of Tukayyid).

Vlad gets enraged and physically attacks Phelan. Phelan takes him down in hand-to-hand, he's either delirious or unconscious (either way it's clear Vlad can't continue and Phelan has won), and it's finally over.

The Trial is actually a great example of all the twists and turns that can happen and still be considered a good and honorable fight. I feel like I see a lot of people try to line up and codify Clan behavior into neat little boxes. They try to say this 100% or 0% can or cannot happen. But the reality is actually often quite messy. With the Clan Warriors themselves often just having to know where the boundary lines are and how to stay on the right side of a line without crossing into truly dishonorable behavior.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2023, 09:37:42 by Alan Grant »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #45 on: 30 November 2023, 13:32:43 »
Winning actually determines a lot of whether or not a particular action was honorable.
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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #46 on: 30 November 2023, 15:39:28 »
Malvina Hazen and Jana Pryde also continued their Trial after their ‘Mechs were no longer operable, and that wasn’t considered dishonorable, either.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2023, 23:04:46 by tassa_kay »
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rebs

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #47 on: 30 November 2023, 22:24:42 »
"It is the victor that determines
what is honorable, and what is treason.
That is the Way."

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Metallgewitter

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #48 on: 01 December 2023, 05:38:41 »
"It is the victor that determines
what is honorable, and what is treason.
That is the Way."

~Khan Silas Kuhahl, TWoR

Which sums the whole hypocrisy that is Clan culture up. You can abandon any "honorable tenet" at the first opportunity as long as you win. There is this small part in Redemption Rites where the new CO of Zeta battalion muses about the training of new Dragoons. They have a whole course about Zellbriggen and an addendum on how to actually circumvent it. because the Clans also drop Zellbriggen when it's convenient

rebs

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #49 on: 01 December 2023, 06:20:12 »
Which sums the whole hypocrisy that is Clan culture up. You can abandon any "honorable tenet" at the first opportunity as long as you win.

Especially during the Wars of Reaving.  The Home Clans fully became what they struggled against.  The Inner Sphere Clans have been corrupted in their own way, but as the Homies fought against that "taint", they became perhaps even more corrupt.  And yet they are blinded to it by their own zealotry. 

How many cultures have sayings that basically boil down to "be careful not to become like who or what you are fighting"?  It has to be damn near universal.
« Last Edit: 01 December 2023, 06:22:34 by rebs »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #50 on: 01 December 2023, 10:28:50 »
Clan society was basically a cult, and cults only function as long as they can keep themselves isolated.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #51 on: 01 December 2023, 12:40:22 »
Clan society was basically a cult, and cults only function as long as they can keep themselves isolated.

The funny thing is this cult didn't broke down when the leader was killed. Probably because the indoctrination was deep enpugh to prevent it or perhaps because they were too exhausted from the fighting

Alan Grant

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #52 on: 01 December 2023, 12:53:03 »
The book Operation Turning Points Widowmaker Absorption has some personal journal style text and an opening scene from Khan Winson that is relevant to this topic.

It basically says that he directed the Wolves to go all berserker (and stay that way) against the Widowmakers as an act of asserting/reasserting everything Kerensky over Clan society. They killed the people who killed Kerensky. The implied message that was meant to come from that violence was also, if you stand against the society Kerensky built, we Wolves will pivot and go after you too.

As part of the opening scene he notes that some people had been quietly questioning if Nicholas was mad. That it was this hushed question that was discussed privately. It had him worried.

With Kerensky's death, he was worried that the society would just fly apart and go back to being like the Pentagon powers, another Exodus Civil War.

He even acknowledged that many of the people they were killing weren't really guilty of anything. They just had to die as a message to cement the hold of the Way of the Clans over everyone in the Clan Homeworlds. Winson was genuinely worried that the Clans would begin to falter from his vision and break apart in the wake of his death. I think the expression he kept using on himself was something like "I am the last nail holding the kingdom together."

Generations later of course, the Kerensky's have risen to demigod status. They weren't even really thinking of him like a man anymore. Only the Star Adders notably don't see the founders that way. But all the other Clans did.

That's even formalized by the Cloud Cobra Anasaz Cloister's belief system, which elevates Alex and Nick Kerensky and The Way as a Supreme Being. But a more general sense of it is found throughout the Clans.

So the answer to the "why didn't the cult die with its leader?" question is that other founders, like Jerome Winson, and probably also many others as well, fought to hold it together. They feared that the loss of the Clans would just result in another truly horrific Exodus Civil War style sequence of events.
« Last Edit: 01 December 2023, 14:31:02 by Alan Grant »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #53 on: 01 December 2023, 15:02:14 »
Wasn't that also the reason that Kerensky went after the Wolverines? Basically setting an example to those that threaten unity though in this case Kerensky manipulated all to see the Wolverines as a sort of boogeyman he could direct the other Clans against. Well that and the Wolverines seemed to come up way ahead of the other Clans in turns of economy and technological advances.

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #54 on: 01 December 2023, 16:24:55 »
That was the way Betrayal of Ideals portrayed it, but that book has issues.
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rebs

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #55 on: 01 December 2023, 19:39:19 »
The funny thing is this cult didn't broke down when the leader was killed. Probably because the indoctrination was deep enpugh to prevent it or perhaps because they were too exhausted from the fighting

Much like "The Party" in 1984, the Clans were set up to perpetuate their selves and their system regardless of the changing names and faces who wield power.

Nicholas and Aleksandr Kerensky were venerated like a cult by the coming generations, but it was the promise of power and control to the warriors who survived that kept it from falling apart upon the death of Nicholas. 

Both factors keep the Clan system in place.  We could call it the "religion of the Great Kerenskys" and the system of power handed down from Nicholas to all generations onward. 

Together they are strong enough to have two branches now, Spheroid and Home Clan. 
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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #56 on: 01 December 2023, 23:28:28 »
Alexander Kerensky was at least humane, Nikky went nuts

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #57 on: 02 December 2023, 04:30:50 »
Alexander Kerensky was at least humane, Nikky went nuts


leading your entire army out into the wilds of no where deep space with minimal plans because you got your fee fees hurt isn't exactly rational thinking, Alexander was a differant kind of nuts but let's not pretend he was firing on all cylinders
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #58 on: 02 December 2023, 05:23:23 »
Yeah. And Jerome Blake was almost right when he wrote in his journal that Kerensky was going out there to simply getting himself killed.

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Re: Bondsmen: Random thoughts
« Reply #59 on: 17 December 2023, 19:45:45 »
"It is the victor that determines
what is honorable, and what is treason.
That is the Way."

~Khan Silas Kuhahl, TWoR
This is the best example of what the whole "Honor System" of the Clan's truly mean.


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