Author Topic: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.  (Read 7521 times)

Daemion

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Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« on: 08 July 2011, 16:03:58 »
So, my friends and I have been running on and off campaigns in what we decided is an alternate history BT. We call it the 5th Succession War, not to be mistaken for other 5th Succession Wars.

In this setting, I wanted to try out something that allows for the meshing of BMr Rules with Total Warfare Rules. I look on most TW stuff, such as damage against infantry from armored combat units, as particularly sub par since most weapons in the BMR did their damage to Infantry straight. I wanted to try a middle-ground set of house-rules mods to link the 'height of the Star League' (BMR) with what I deem as civilian level tech (TW).

I always figured that damage against infantry should have been randomized.

The biggest reason is that guys are spread out and moving in odd ways. Something that isn't up to snuff can still peg more than a handful under normal circumstances with very powerful weapons.

Another reason is that AC munitions had at one point been described as being both armor defeating and high explosive. HEAP, for the layman who don't know better. BT Lasers aren't microsecond bursts, as far as I'm concerned. The shear passing of a gauss round would be more than enough to disable or cripple someone.

So, this business of 1 or 2 guys at best for all direct fire weapons just wasn't cutting it for me. However, the application of full damage was way too, er, basic for me.

I never quite came up with something simple enough to remember but complex enough to satisfy. That is, until reading through the M-48 discussion got me reflecting on what most people felt about how ACs work.

So, without further ado, Random Infantry Damage.
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Daemion

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Random Infantry Damage
« Reply #1 on: 08 July 2011, 16:20:08 »
Randomised Damage for Direct Fire Weapons Against Unarmored Infantry

Autocannons
When applying autocannon damage to unarmored infantry, roll on the following cluster column appropriate for the class of weapon, then apply the result as damage to the infantry squad or platoon:

AC/2 = 3 column
AC/5 = 8 column (IS) / 9 column (Clan)
AC/10 = 16 column (IS) / 17 column (Clan)
AC/20 = Roll as for AC/10, and double the result.

* - Designer's note: I need to do some looking in TW to find the full set of columns to verify that these columns do, indeed average the class's damage. For those with the rules available, I'm basically finding a column that averages the class's damage on a roll of 7. Feel free to correct me.


Ultra and Rotary Autocannons treat each shot grouping as a separate strike and should roll to find the true strength of each hit as described above.

LBX Solid shot works as standard ACs. LBX cluster munitions roll to find the number of 'pellets' that hit as for attacks against armored units. Each pellet does 1d6 damage to unarmored infantry.




Direct Fire Energy and single shot Gauss Weapons
When resolving damage from DFE or DFSSGauss Weapons, roll on the cluster chart, referencing the column that matches the weapon's damage. The result is the actual amount of damage the weapon does to unarmored infantry.

« Last Edit: 11 July 2011, 13:37:29 by Daemion »
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Daemion

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #2 on: 08 July 2011, 16:22:33 »
Pretty simple and easy to remember. Much more interesting than what you find in the BMR, as far as I'm concerned, and much more worthwhile than the way TW does it now. I'll keep that for support vehicles which don't have the advanced fire control options built in.


If one wants, they could also apply this as a means to differentiate well equipped, front-line unarmored infantry compared to shoddily garbed police and militia and mob formations, too, instead.

Comments, thoughts, quibbles?
« Last Edit: 08 July 2011, 16:24:12 by Daemion »
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Demos

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #3 on: 09 July 2011, 01:17:59 »

IMHO there was a reaosn why they changed the damage vs. infantry. Your rules wil also slaughter them.
The randomized element for the AC only indicates that *at average* you'll apply their damage value - no change
Energy waepons will be reduced a bit, but not so much.

Infantry will be extinxct of your table while be butchered too fast.

On the other hand you invalidate many options and weapons of TW/TM/TO: Flechette/Frag Ammo, Artillery, MGs, Flamer - they all have their uses vs. infantry.
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Akalabeth

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #4 on: 09 July 2011, 02:14:06 »
Wait wait wait . . . sooooo, instead of having them do their straight damage, you had weapons do MORE damage? What?

Honestly the way infantry take damage in TW is the single best change in the game. Well, the infantry in general are the most improved part of the game. And why?

Because Anti infantry mechs actually DO THEIR JOB.

Flamers and Machine guns are no longer useless, they're the cream of the crop for defeating infantr. Even the Small Pulse Laser gets big props in this category. Basically the three most rejected weapons in the game are popular again. Not only that but tanks and so forth make sense. All of those tanks with one main gun and a machine gun like the Vedette actually make sense now because machine guns are effective whereas other weapons or not.

But anyway. Whatever floats your boat.
Personally though I would never take infantry in your setting. Would be a complete waste of time.

Daemion

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #5 on: 11 July 2011, 13:33:12 »
This is still a work in progress. I just whipped that up in a matter of minutes, so I'll still be tweaking them as I go.

When looking at ACs I wanted to give a purpose to the smaller classes, as they're not necessarily the best anti-armor weapon. Justifying dedicating an entire ton to ammo you can use in limited circumstances actually goes against the advanced look of the future, even if it is of the 80s or 90s. That definitely sounds like stuff you'd find mounted to your low-end support units.

We've been playing this setting under the impression that there are scads of extra defense forces on each world. However, most are not really up to fighting off an invasion force equipped with the latest and greatest.

We also play on printed BT maps, so there's a lot of built up terrain to work with. A lot!

I already have a few ideas for tweaks:

I'm toying with the thought of leaving the AC damage undoubled for open spaces. You can almost double it by shear chance already. The shots can be indiscriminate enough to bypass cover, so it's pretty much the same where-ever it fires. Only buildings remain as decent cover for infantry. (As it should be.) So, rules for interaction with buildings and firing on infantry in buildings remain unchanged.

Found the cluster chart and have decided that Clan ACs use the higher damage column, and the IS cannons use the lower damage column for the AC/5 and 10. As there is no column for 31-39, I'll just assume doubling the result for the AC/10 roll. The appropriate columns will be listed in the second post of this thread.

LBX! See second post for my idea.

I will look at the alternate munitions and see if there is any way to improve their performance. However, I'm thinking of leaving that as something strictly for the low end support 'combat' vehicles.

I'm still open to suggestions.



« Last Edit: 11 July 2011, 13:38:14 by Daemion »
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FedComGirl

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #6 on: 15 July 2011, 04:53:14 »
I've experimented with using the cluster hit charts but at the number for their damage rating, so an AC/2 would roll on the 2 column and an AC/5 on the 5 column and so on.

Daemion

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #7 on: 15 July 2011, 12:26:47 »
I actually had considered this, but I want something to make ACs stand out compared to other weapons. I have an idea. More later.

This will be the launching point for a good means of expanding the range of infantry in BT games. Need to discuss it with my friends first.
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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #8 on: 20 July 2011, 04:59:06 »
In my opinion:
Flamer. Light Pulse Weapons and Machine-Guns should be the only way to slaughter infantry.
reason:
i know a lot of people that remove those "toy guns" for more heat sinks, ammunition or heavy weapons.

It is always a pleasure to trouble them with those soldiers with assault rifles. It may not kill them but its good insult
However: is is just a game and to think that a assualt rifle should be enough to hurt a armored vehicle is romantic but really stupid.

other problem
If a AC20 may use only on projectile per round then it has to be about 200mm (8.0 in)
I think that such a grenade would kill nearly every living unarmored human in a single "hex" (1,2,3,4..squads no problem)
the same is with AC10 (possible 120mm) flechette -> canister 4 grenades with a total of 6000 sub projectiles should do the same slaughter

Try in improving the weapon range for direct weapons (laser) when used to slay infantry (you may not able to damage armor, but blood boils at lower temperature)


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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #9 on: 20 July 2011, 10:43:15 »
My only complaint about how AI damage was done in TW was I felt they got too sever w/ Direct Fire weapons.
I think that a divisor of 5 would have been a much better option than a divisor of 10.
Cluster fire weapons should have been divided by 2-3 instead of 5.
The idea of an LRM-20 lobbing in 20 rockets into a hex and only killing 4 guys seems a bit off.
Ditto an AC10 blast only getting 1
I don't want the old BMR full levels but a bit more than a PPC killing 1 guy would be nice.
Especially since its not even a guarenteed kill, its possible he is only "wounded" at the end of the game.

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #10 on: 20 July 2011, 11:54:25 »
If you don't like forcing someone to take a full ton of AP ammo for an AC, why not just house rule that you can mix special ammo types in a single ton of ammo rather than create an all-new set of rules?

willydstyle

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #11 on: 20 July 2011, 14:06:58 »
Doing some quick math, assuming that a hex is 30 meters point-to-point, each trooper in a 21 man platoon has a 5mX5m square if fully spread out through a hex.  This is a good enough spread that weapons that don't have some serious area effect will kill more than a guy or two.  LRMs are a pretty light warhead, so I could definitely see an LRM 20 killing "only" 4 guys when the infantry have cover.

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #12 on: 20 July 2011, 16:25:50 »
My only complaint about how AI damage was done in TW was I felt they got too sever w/ Direct Fire weapons.
I think that a divisor of 5 would have been a much better option than a divisor of 10.
Cluster fire weapons should have been divided by 2-3 instead of 5.
The idea of an LRM-20 lobbing in 20 rockets into a hex and only killing 4 guys seems a bit off.
Ditto an AC10 blast only getting 1
I don't want the old BMR full levels but a bit more than a PPC killing 1 guy would be nice.
Especially since its not even a guarenteed kill, its possible he is only "wounded" at the end of the game.

This is largely what I think

Though interestingly AToW has it set if you fire 41+ missiles into a hex you would technically kill any number of your average human characters (IIRC which have a BOD score of between 4 and 6).


Though thing I would also do is change the armors up a bit, add a few more options, and fluff them out at bit more...

Damage divisor of 2 would be you heavy full body armors, "shock troops, elite infantry, ect".
Divisor of 1 is your default unit, representing full body armor, but of lighter protection than the above armors.
Divisor of .5, would represent units (i.e. militias) armored only with a helmet and a armored vest, or people with heavy winter clothing. 
Divisor of .25 would be typical light clothing that most people ware (also could represent people with out any sort of armoring out side of a helmet).

And perhaps place these in the regular rules.
Note the last one is a new option, and is not found in the rules.


Daemion

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #13 on: 20 July 2011, 17:04:47 »
LRMs are a pretty light warhead, so I could definitely see an LRM 20 killing "only" 4 guys when the infantry have cover.

Light Warhead, sure, in KG. But, what kind of explosives were they using again? And, besides, LRMs don't do the /10 divisor thing that direct fire weapons are stuck with. On average, an LRM-5 will catch 3 guys in bush, and 6 out in the open.


If you don't like forcing someone to take a full ton of AP ammo for an AC, why not just house rule that you can mix special ammo types in a single ton of ammo rather than create an all-new set of rules?

Because we've already made other changes for games set in this 'alternate setting'. We already have other middlegrounds taken between BT and TW.

For example: Partial cover still grants a +3, but all leg shots are applied to the appropriate arm instead on a full chart role instead of using the Punch table.

Another Example: We split up two different approaches to balancing the hover nerf among the Inner Sphere and Clan technologies. Clans effectively ignore the type modifier, but still have to check for sideslipping, and failure only drifts one hex, as per sideslipping for VToLs in the BMR. IS Hovertanks still track the type modifiers on the motive damage chart, but don't have to roll for sideslipping. They're much more nimble, at the sacrifice of durability.

We use everything from TW combat for civilian gear and support vehicles, though the Partial cover mod is still +3.

We did this as an experiment, using ideals and aesthetics to create an 'Ideal BattleTech' that could still bridge the two rules sets we are familiar with. (I'm sorry, but TW is not ideal, as far as I'm concerned, especially when trying to mesh with fiction.) We decided to treat the BMR rules as 'height of the Star League' for some of the effects one can find, like popping tanks on a high crit roll, or clearing woods rather effectively.

One of my ideals is that damage to infantry should always be random, even from other infantry. I actually see infantry as being rather mobile, and catching a guy is still a matter of random luck, no matter how accurate or intuitive a gunner/control computer might be. (There's a cheap little board game that I can't remember the name of that was a spoof off of Doom and other FPS computer games. It had an effect (Hack?Cheat) card called 'He Zigged When He Should Have Zagged'. That applies to infantry on the move in a fire zone, as far as I see it.) Because of that, chances of nailing more than one or only one are just as likely, as far as I see it. 

As such, since we've already played around with the other rules, trying to apply a randomized structure to infantry is another ideal. However, most of my early thoughts on the matter revolved around a single d6 with its flat randomness. I didn't like it. It would invariably end with something too complex to easily remember.

BT is supposed to be a game of futuristic combat. I've accepted that munitions between cannons of a like class, though variable in diameter, were possible because ACs can be modified rather easily to match the new diameter. Just because it's not possible now, doesn't mean it can't be done in the future.

If I can accept that, I can also accept standard ammo as being programmable and variable in function as the next magazine is being loaded into the weapon - IE: in the middle of combat. To defeat armor takes a different set of characteristics than to kill infantry.

AC munitions were stated to be both High Explosive and Armor Piercing. Under the BMR, the ACs were able to effect both armor and personnel equally effectively. One can attribute this to control computers creating a good spread or tight focus as desired. One can also attribute this to the dual role of the AC munition. Or, you can even assume that the round could change rolls of its own accord, based on input from a computer before being fired out the barrel. This complexity would help explain the costs for munitions beyond powder and metal.

Either way, to be that effective against infantry, you need an HE kick, or really good accuracy.

Experiment, if you're willing and able: Take a semi-automatic rifle. Find some small targets, like, say, Dark Age figures. Put them in some middling tall grass. (Stuff which hasn't been mowed in a while, not necessarily prairie.) Where you can find them. Take aim of the general area and start puling the trigger as fast as you can. Once done, go find your figures and see what damage you've done.

Result: Most likely, you'll not have hit anything you couldn't see.

Try it again, but where you can see them. Still see how many you can hit. Probably more than before, but still not all, under such rapid-firing conditions. Not unless you're a robot.


BT MGs are controlled by robots. (A computer tied to servos is still a robot.) A friend pointed out when we tried this experiment that HE would counter such misses. BT ACs are supposed to have HE already in them. They, too, are tied to robots. They should be catching a lot of guys, whether in cover or out in the open. Especially if their protective gear isn't complete, like most BT Infantry are depicted.

The Succession Wars were supposed to see a decline in technology from its height. Look at the effects of TW from the BMR, and you can see a similar theme. In the BMR, weapons from armored units could hit the same number of guys with mechanical regularity. Total Warfare, you're lucky if the machine can increase the diameter of its spread. The effects in Total Warfare seemed idiotically extreme for tech degradation. Thus, the attempt at something in the middle.

If we assume that the robot controlling the weapons isn't as effective as that from the height of technology, then, it stands to reason that it can get a spread, but is still relying on luck to catch the optimum number of guys, and will only manage something less.

Hence the idea that randomized damage to infantry is a middle ground between the BMR and TW.

The optimal spread would be the one out in the open, which is double the standard weapon damage.

I hope all that explains to you why I'm not making simple tweaks to modifying infantry combat. My view on the game and fiction is that they go hand-in-hand, and that this whole thing is supposed to be in the future.



Anyway, this is where my idea for alternate infantry types comes in. Part of it stems from looking at unarmored infantry with heavy armor and my dislike for point counting. (See my demolition attempt rules as an example of what I prefer.) Another part of it stems from the idea that the standard infantry of BT (BMR or TW) are the best equipped, the best trained, and the best in shape and highly motivated.

I'm thinking that 'standard infantry', with their uber equipment will get a second roll on the cluster chart indicated for the 'actual damage' AC result. IE, you roll for an AC 5 or 10 or whatever as above, but then use the result as the new column to roll under for the actual damage. This is only done for 'standard' infantry which are in cover of some sort.

Then, we can introduce other types of infantry to represent the not-so-elite and the ill-equipped.

I'm thinking of calling them 'Normal' and 'Irregular' types. At some point, I'm going to start looking into range boosts against these sub-standard types, as well as changes in damage effects.

Although, as somebody else pointed out, somewhere - if not this thread -, that infantry of such lower calibers should be working on a completely different scale. I agree with this. Taking this approach would allow for sub-par vehicles which don't rate even as a lowly support vehicle, but giving them some sort of effect against that which they were designed to fight - men, and like vehicles.

I'm still open to comments and suggestions and questions. This has actually been rather helpful.







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Hellraiser

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #14 on: 20 July 2011, 17:20:37 »
Light Warhead, sure, in KG. But, what kind of explosives were they using again? And, besides, LRMs don't do the /10 divisor thing that direct fire weapons are stuck with. On average, an LRM-5 will catch 3 guys in bush, and 6 out in the open.   
They do ?
I read it as 1 guy per 5 missiles.
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Daemion

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #15 on: 20 July 2011, 17:27:46 »
Ah. My mistake. The Non-IW table does have a /5 divisor for missile cluster weapons.

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Nahuris

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #16 on: 20 July 2011, 23:40:37 »
Ok, from now on, all infantry must stand in straight lines if your opponent uses lasers against you --- that way, that 1/10th of a second burst of laser can get more than one of you..... I'd agree with PPC's getting a divisor of 5, as they tend to splatter a lot of electricity around at impact, but a laser is a single narrow straight, short term beam...... that's why they are mentioned as having capacitors, to create the high intensity burst .... so I see beams as being the least effective weapon against infantry.

Nahuris
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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #17 on: 21 July 2011, 00:56:03 »
so I see beams as being the least effective weapon against infantry.

right so far
but I think the damage of a laser hit isn't only about cooking troops. A laser beam that hit the ground near a trooper would still cripple him (not because of the heat, that is nonsense) but the energy should be able to make stone liquid, water in earth will be vaporised.... so you still have a microexplosion still enough to wound the man

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #18 on: 21 July 2011, 09:41:06 »
right so far
but I think the damage of a laser hit isn't only about cooking troops. A laser beam that hit the ground near a trooper would still cripple him (not because of the heat, that is nonsense) but the energy should be able to make stone liquid, water in earth will be vaporised.... so you still have a microexplosion still enough to wound the man

I would agree, but I've seen our modern flak vests in combat..... good ballistic cloth will go a long way to minimizing said casualties.
What I wouldn't expect is that the infantry would pop right back up and return fire. There would be a few seconds of being stunned ...... maybe a forced rule where on the turn after receiving fire, that infantry have to "dig in" again..... meaning that they are taking cover rather than moving. If they move, then there is a bonus to damage against them?

Nahuris
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Daemion

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #19 on: 21 July 2011, 12:21:03 »
...[T]hat way, that 1/10th of a second burst of laser can get more than one of you.... [A] laser is a single narrow straight, short term beam...... that's why they are mentioned as having capacitors, to create the high intensity burst .... so I see beams as being the least effective weapon against infantry.

Nahuris

Actually, a fire duration has never been specified for BT lasers.

Besides, we're talking futuristic machines here.

Experiment: Take a pen laser and, with it on, flick your wrist. What kind of angle can you get in that brief amount of time? Probably a fair one, from 30 to 45 degrees. Because the barrel on a laser doesn't have to align with the emitting point, the focusing lense can be on its own little turret at the tip. Probably myomer driven, it can most likely reorient itself in the same amount of time it takes you to flick your wrist while the beam is firing.

Because it's controlled by an exacting computer, that sweep can take very interesting paths. In older incarnations of the game, the hex could be packed with both friendly and enemy infantry and you don't have to worry yourself about hitting friendlies along with the enemy. Heck, you don't have to worry about the damage spilling from one enemy unit into another. In TW, you don't have to worry so much because the damage inflicted is far less, but that risk of spill-over is still not there.

If you break from your expectations and try to think futuristic, even for a future of the 80s, a lot of in-game effects, even of older incarnations, become plausible. So, a hell whip (Laser) swiping down anywhere from half to a full squad of infantry isn't out of the question.

Oh, and on the issue of cooking guys. A laser powerful enough will superheat the air around it.  That's where your heat comes from. Just like the heat you feel on your hand through a windshield isn't from the air outside but the reaction with light on your skin and the air immediately around it. Heat is a chemical reaction.

Do you know how hot it has to get to kill the oxygen receptive layer in your lungs? It's not very high. Granted, according to some old Popular Mechanics articles, people can stand a couple hours in 250 degree heat. However, the most common house fire casualties are from inhaling superheated air at eye-level, which generally is about 600 F after a only a couple minutes of burning anywhere in the house.

How hot does it have to be for a laser beam to be seen in the air around it? Don't know. We don't have any that powerful. Just enough to leave a steam contrail at roughly the same time it fired, I guess. To get steam in such short order would require extremely hot air condensing and mixing with the cooler air around it, I think. Any proximity to that would be dangerous for somebody not equipped with protective breathing gear or covered skin. Anything hot enough to react with the water in the ground will be hot enough to react with the water in the man, too.

Super powered lasers of the future will very dangerous things.



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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #20 on: 21 July 2011, 12:45:21 »
Actually, a fire duration has never been specified for BT lasers.

Besides, we're talking futuristic machines here.

Experiment: Take a pen laser and, with it on, flick your wrist. What kind of angle can you get in that brief amount of time? Probably a fair one, from 30 to 45 degrees. Because the barrel on a laser doesn't have to align with the emitting point, the focusing lense can be on its own little turret at the tip. Probably myomer driven, it can most likely reorient itself in the same amount of time it takes you to flick your wrist while the beam is firing.

Because it's controlled by an exacting computer, that sweep can take very interesting paths. In older incarnations of the game, the hex could be packed with both friendly and enemy infantry and you don't have to worry yourself about hitting friendlies along with the enemy. Heck, you don't have to worry about the damage spilling from one enemy unit into another. In TW, you don't have to worry so much because the damage inflicted is far less, but that risk of spill-over is still not there.

If you break from your expectations and try to think futuristic, even for a future of the 80s, a lot of in-game effects, even of older incarnations, become plausible. So, a hell whip (Laser) swiping down anywhere from half to a full squad of infantry isn't out of the question.

Tech manual mentions that sustained bursts of more than a few seconds would melt the optics of a laser (preventing them from being the ultimate shoot and sweep weapon). It also mentions that a fraction of a second is enough to put a gauge in mech armor. So I would say that a laser only fires for no more than a second, and likely less.

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Oh, and on the issue of cooking guys. A laser powerful enough will superheat the air around it.  That's where your heat comes from. Just like the heat you feel on your hand through a windshield isn't from the air outside but the reaction with light on your skin and the air immediately around it. Heat is a chemical reaction.

How hot does it have to be for a laser beam to be seen in the air around it? Don't know. We don't have any that powerful. Just enough to leave a steam contrail at roughly the same time it fired, I guess. To get steam in such short order would require extremely hot air condensing and mixing with the cooler air around it, I think. Any proximity to that would be dangerous for somebody not equipped with protective breathing gear or covered skin. Anything hot enough to react with the water in the ground will be hot enough to react with the water in the man, too.

Super powered lasers of the future will very dangerous things.
Well the Novels and fluff often mention hundreds of kilograms of armor being melted and falling to the ground, and often they mention it being explosively vaporized. To fully melt ~60kg of B-tech armor (assuming half BN and half steel) would require ~190 megajoules of energy. That's a lot of energy. Though a while back on another forum, some one argued that that much energy would cause issues in an atmosphere as we are talking easily gigajoule levels of energy for even medium lasers at that level. So one could say that B-tech lasers per damage point could be half to 1/4th the energy I posted above.
Which is still quite powerful... Of coarse B-tech also commonly notes that Gauss Rifles are hypersonic beasts.

Though from the descriptions and rules for B-tech infantry armor most infantry armor provides full or near full body protection.

Nahuris

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #21 on: 21 July 2011, 14:27:20 »
Actually, a fire duration has never been specified for BT lasers.

Besides, we're talking futuristic machines here.

Experiment: Take a pen laser and, with it on, flick your wrist. What kind of angle can you get in that brief amount of time? Probably a fair one, from 30 to 45 degrees. Because the barrel on a laser doesn't have to align with the emitting point, the focusing lense can be on its own little turret at the tip. Probably myomer driven, it can most likely reorient itself in the same amount of time it takes you to flick your wrist while the beam is firing.

Because it's controlled by an exacting computer, that sweep can take very interesting paths. In older incarnations of the game, the hex could be packed with both friendly and enemy infantry and you don't have to worry yourself about hitting friendlies along with the enemy. Heck, you don't have to worry about the damage spilling from one enemy unit into another. In TW, you don't have to worry so much because the damage inflicted is far less, but that risk of spill-over is still not there.

If you break from your expectations and try to think futuristic, even for a future of the 80s, a lot of in-game effects, even of older incarnations, become plausible. So, a hell whip (Laser) swiping down anywhere from half to a full squad of infantry isn't out of the question.

Oh, and on the issue of cooking guys. A laser powerful enough will superheat the air around it.  That's where your heat comes from. Just like the heat you feel on your hand through a windshield isn't from the air outside but the reaction with light on your skin and the air immediately around it. Heat is a chemical reaction.

Do you know how hot it has to get to kill the oxygen receptive layer in your lungs? It's not very high. Granted, according to some old Popular Mechanics articles, people can stand a couple hours in 250 degree heat. However, the most common house fire casualties are from inhaling superheated air at eye-level, which generally is about 600 F after a only a couple minutes of burning anywhere in the house.

How hot does it have to be for a laser beam to be seen in the air around it? Don't know. We don't have any that powerful. Just enough to leave a steam contrail at roughly the same time it fired, I guess. To get steam in such short order would require extremely hot air condensing and mixing with the cooler air around it, I think. Any proximity to that would be dangerous for somebody not equipped with protective breathing gear or covered skin. Anything hot enough to react with the water in the ground will be hot enough to react with the water in the man, too.

Super powered lasers of the future will very dangerous things.

I know that it's no longer canon...... but Battletechnology did a great article on lasers.

However, I digress .... if a laser can be whipped as you say, then damage must be divided amongst multiple locations in any combat where both mechs are in motion.
I used the 1/10th of a second as a basis, due to known discharge rates of capacitors, and also as an estimate of about how long a laser could hit the same location when fired from one Locust doing a run by on another and still have the laser only hit one location, rather than rake across the torsos, like the Babylon 5 lasers do.... (just for image, not as a definition)

As for heat... one interesting thing about air is that it is a great conductor of heat ---- and because of that, it tends to diffuse heat at extreme rates in all directions, as it is conducting the heat through itself at a high rate..... one of the reasons we can feel heat from a fire after only a moment or two, and which is why volkswagens and most combat rifles are air cooled. Heat only becomes an issue when the heat producing source continues to burn, AND it's enclosed..... such as the burning house you mentioned, people have frozen to death within 5 feet of large fires, when they have failed to properly contain the heat in shelters in survival situations.... because they do not quite understand how fast heat can disperse.
That's why people can die of hypothermia in 60 - 70 degree weather if they do not have enough clothing or other insulation (and yes, that does happen... especially to hikers in mountains who dress in t-shirts and shorts and then get stuck)

I agree that a laser hitting the ground near you would cause a quick burst of air, but per physics, as that burst expands outward (and it HAS to expand to go in all directions) it cools.. same as an aerosol can spray cools, to the point of the can getting cold. It might knock people around.... but the laser is still a poor weapon for infantry.

Again, also... having been in combat myself, and having been in buildings on the receiving end of a rocket hit, and also being close enough to grenades going off to make one very unhappy..... Infrantry is not quite as frail as some people want to think. Yes, I have been hit by shrapnel, and while injured, could still fight..... and I've seen how effective Kevlar is at protecting people..... if you insist that the weapons are so much more powerful, then we would have to also accept that personal protection has also improved ----hence, the troops would be better protected via their uniforms...... even now, we are experimenting with cloth at NIST (National Institute of Standards and Testing) that utilize thread based on spider web material that can stop bullets with single layers of material.

Finally, unlike solid shells from bullets or AC's a laser tends to expend it's energy on the first thing it hits...... and if the infantry is in a house, that means that the laser will do lots of hurt to the outside....

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #22 on: 22 July 2011, 15:00:25 »
Well I like the idea of random damage to infantry. Though I do not like the Clusters table, it's not very random in it's numbers.

humm perhaps using D6s

AC-2 = D6/2 round up
AC-5 = D6
AC-10 = D6 +2
AC-20 = 2D6

Though now to work out anti-personnel ammo... Perhaps just leave it as is, full damage to the unit, advantage being that it's consistent...

One thing I would do is split infantry into squads rather than platoons. Though considerably improved anti-infantry damage might make it not a good idea, as a squad could easily be removed...

Deadmeat313

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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #23 on: 26 July 2011, 06:58:56 »
Let's not forget that since this is a boardgame, realism sometimes has to take a back seat behind game balance.

It is true that in a thousand years technology will likely have made some pretty advanced destructive weapons that will make life very uncomfortable for the PBIs.  BUT the basis of Battletech is a future where technology is just enough of a crutch to get you to the battlefield.  Targetting and maneuver are largely a product of human pilot skill, despite a clear RL development towards _removing_ the human element from those aspects of warfare technology.

To play Battletech is to exist in a universe where larger autocannons are short range slugger devices while smaller ACs are sniper weapons.  You have to accept that machineguns (actually, all weapons) have a REALLY short effective range.  Most of all you have to accept that a 12 metre tall robot tank is a sensible military design on a modern battlefield!    ;)

The rule-set helps you with that.  For example, it makes it highly unlikely that a stray shot will cripple one of the many actuator joints all over your mech, despite the fact that tanks (an armoured box on tracks) get their turret ring jammed all the time!

@ Daemion:  Sorry if it sounds like I've been ranting.  In the end, its your game.   If you want the battlefield to be highly lethal to infantry, then that is absolutely your decision.  The rules suggestion in your OP are not bad, but I wouldn't use them.  I like to think that while all the lead is flying on the battlefield there can be dug in squads who are really hard to winkle out of their foxholes.  Some 'Mechs literally have to stomp over and hose the place at point blank range while weathering the return fire.

In game terms, it changes infantry from a brief annoyance to a slightly more tenacious annoyance.  They won't be winnign any battles on their own though.    :)


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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #24 on: 01 August 2011, 14:57:04 »
Well I like the idea of random damage to infantry. Though I do not like the Clusters table, it's not very random in it's numbers.

humm perhaps using D6s

AC-2 = D6/2 round up
AC-5 = D6
AC-10 = D6 +2
AC-20 = 2D6

Though now to work out anti-personnel ammo... Perhaps just leave it as is, full damage to the unit, advantage being that it's consistent...

One thing I would do is split infantry into squads rather than platoons. Though considerably improved anti-infantry damage might make it not a good idea, as a squad could easily be removed...

I tried that. While I like the idea behind a blind, flat probability curve, the best way would have to rely heavily on other polyhedrals. Something I really don't want to do for BT, which is very much based on the bell curve on 2d6, even though we have used the full range to simplify things like rolling for hit crit items. (2 items in a bare-bones leg? d4, then d3, skipping the prior damage and moving down the list. Saves having to reroll a d6 over and over when you get 5s and 6s.)

Actually, my friends listened to my proposal about standard infantry, how they get the second roll while in cover, and it makes it completely random in that instance. Example roll I showed my friend, I rolled a 4 on the IS AC/5's 8 column, giving me a 4, then rolled on the four column with an 8, giving me 3 as the final damage calculation.

Similarly equipped 'Regular Infantry' would get the same bonus from AC fire while in cover. However, they can't run as fast as the insane professionals of the Standard type. Irregulars will be fun, as I can bring in primitive/inadequate training and equipment.

I know that it's no longer canon...... but Battletechnology did a great article on lasers.

However, I digress .... if a laser can be whipped as you say, then damage must be divided amongst multiple locations in any combat where both mechs are in motion.

Point one: BattleTechnology is optional. There are somethings that I like, and some that I don't. Anything that tries to make the future setting of BT look comical, I ignore.

Secondly, you assume that a futuristic weapon, one controlled mostly by a computer, can't choose to do one or the other: fire extremely accurately, or whip the beam around like crazy.

I'm taking the assumption that it can and does. BT battlecomputers are quite capable of determining how to approach a particular target with whatever weapon the gunner designates by pulling the trigger with the reticule over an enemy. This helps explain the random location damage, to me. The computer picks the spot that will best result in a direct damaging hit.

Remember. These things are derived from a technological height. That height of technology, while not true science fantasy magic, is only limited to one's imagination.

Even the novels back up a high degree of automation in weapons fire. Most depict a POV Warrior waiting for good tone or color on the reticule before pulling the trigger.

I posit that they're working with bad assumptions or sub-par equipment, and that the degree of automation goes much further: that a 'Mech can predict an opponent's path of travel, project it, and give a percentage on whether a hit from a particular weapon will damage him or her. Initiative and movement order, to me, is a matter of who's more predictable, and a pilot taking advantage of that.

Don't believe their computers are that capable? Re-read some of the side notes on technology in the Star League Sourcebook. Some amazing stuff in there even before the formation of the Hegemony.

Aside: I find it fascinating, and it has given me some issues with things like cross-over games. Trying to mesh a high degree of automation against a system that shows specific signs of complete mechanical slavery to a gunner or pilot's whim, like in the Renegade Legion games, gives me a moment of pause.

I can fully expect that a Mech or Tank can pick off a set number of guys with any particular weapon easily, especially at the height of the Star League. Of course, a lot of that damage will probably be merely crippling, rather than lethal. I can expect a bunch of men to be rendered unconscious from a close blast, maybe some with broken bones, and maybe one unlucky individual who zigged when he should have zagged. They may wake up later, once the battle is over, pick themselves up and either surrender or be patched up and put into the next fight.

Something that has the accuracy to level a small section of armor, but the incapacity to hose the ground, will be bringing its full brunt onto one guy or two? It sounds highly lethal, and that guy should not expect to survive. However, it doesn't sound that advanced, either, especially when it requires specialized munitions to get the hosing effect.

While I want to show the difference between the height of the Star League and present difficiencies as of 3025 or later, TW goes a little too far for me.

Update: Oh! Just remembered. It's not the type modifier we drop for Clan hovercraft. It's the direction Modifier.

 
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Re: Alternate, Middle Ground Way of Damageing Infantry.
« Reply #25 on: 09 August 2011, 18:25:29 »
Actually, a fire duration has never been specified for BT lasers.

Besides, we're talking futuristic machines here.

Experiment: Take a pen laser and, with it on, flick your wrist. What kind of angle can you get in that brief amount of time? Probably a fair one, from 30 to 45 degrees. Because the barrel on a laser doesn't have to align with the emitting point, the focusing lense can be on its own little turret at the tip. Probably myomer driven, it can most likely reorient itself in the same amount of time it takes you to flick your wrist while the beam is firing. ......

One thing also to consider is the amount of time a given laser remains upon a given point of surface area (be it a patch of armor on a 'mech, or a single soldier) in order to heat that point by maintaining a continuous bombardment of laser energy.

In other words, consider burning a piece of wood or paper with focused sunlight through a magnifying glass. Although different from a laser, much of the effect and principle is the same for all intents and purposes.  If any of you have ever tried this, you may recall that you have to keep the light focused on a given point for a sustained period of time before the object starts to burn. If you were to move this point of focused sunlight around too rapidly, the object would not be damaged at all.

Therefore even though you could achieve a swinging arc of 30 to 45 degrees during a laser emission, moving this focused energy about in such an arc might make it ineffecive. In addition to connecting the laser from the 'mech to its target, I felt that a mechwarrior's gunnery skill also included the ability to keep that laser trained on the target long enough for that part of armor to heat up and become damaged.

As it is relevant to infantry, it means that such a laser beam would only be effective if trained upon one to three troopers for the duration of the emission. If the laser were swung in arcs to try and hit many more troopers than that, I think as the beam passed from trooper to trooper, it might only result in a very bad "sunburn".
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