Is it just me, or does the machine gun still suck for its inteded role?

[Daemion]

A lot of people laud Total Warfare for being nigh perfect for many reasons. One happens to be the machine gun. By nerfing a lot of the other weapons in their original role as anti-infantry capable, it now can fulfill its role as an anti-infantry weapon by forcing armored units to move into range of infantry fire to lay down an average of 7 to 14 points of damage, depending on whether or not the infantry occupies open terrain. Most likely they'll be in something, like woods.

However, the best infantry role is as combatants in built up urban areas. And, this is where anti-infantry weaponry is most needed. The ranges are perfect due to Line of Sight restrictions. Yet, every weapon mounted on a vehicle or Mech suddenly drops to killing one guy at a time if the squad is inside a building. Doesn't matter if the Mech fires into the building or wades indoors to shoot at them, the damage is the same: 1 guy per successful hit.

(Asside: I suppose the tactic would be to level the building around their ears first then move in to use the AI weapons against infantry occupying a mere rubble hex.)

This has me wondering two things. A) What are those buildings made of? B) What are infantry made of? Anything else suggests a power drop on the part of the armored units, and that doesn't fit well with the idea of a hyper futurealistic setting.

I also wonder if there is anything to fix the problem with the machine gun and other AP weapons in an urban setting that doesn't require bringing down the house. Or, is the whole point of having armored units in an urban area to destroy every building you're there to capture?

So, am I alone on this?

[Fallen_Raven]

Well the fiction has often said that urban combat by Battlemechs tends to be very destructive. So on a strategic scale you want to avoid fighting in cities if you can. It's not helpful on a tactical scale to know that the boss can't plan his way out of a paper bag, but soldiers throughout history have had that problem.

As for infantry in buildings, use a flamer to get them out. Either they burn from the damage, they burn from the building being on fire,  they get crushed by the building collapsing, or they get out of the building where you can shoot them. All of those options solve your problem of them being in the building.

At the end of the day though you are running into the problem of Battletech being a game rather than a simulation. Like so many  other things, the infantry rules have had to sacrifice accuracy to make a game that is enjoyable. Otherwise we would have to add in rolls for which trooper was hit, the severity of the injury, wether he can survive being transported, how his remaining ammo is divided, and a variety of other issues that are more appropriate to a role-playing session than a game of aromored combat. Some people may enjoy a higher level detail and accuracy in their games, others may feel that we have to much as it is (I haven't heard anyone say that, but I'm sure it will happen at least once before the end of the universe). I personally like thing s about how they are, but as always YYMV.

[vidar]

I would have a look at the deviation done to cities in WW2.  The unbelievable fire power used a close range to dig out an infantry man is increadable, wish I could remember the statistics that the German army put together.   It was some thing like 2-3 thousand rounds and a ton of explosives to kill one man.  So the fact that infantry are so hard to kill in buildings and out makes me how suicidal the BT infantry must be.  I would think that they would be even harder to kill than the rules allow. 
So I guess that I see the armour as needing infantry in cities,  to kill other infantry.  The difficulty in killing a snuggle man with something like Gauss rife makes me like the rules.   Anti-armor weapons predominate the universe as a by product of the fuedel state not wanting to arm the rebels that as hiding as peasants.   So mech are equipped to kill mechs and infanry are pushed aside to allow the "Knights" to kill each other.  So an anti-armor Gauss rife is very capable of punching holes, concentrated impact of hight speed projectile on a small space.  Now a man is way over killed when hit with this kind of force.  So hiding in a building where you massive mech killer can' t even nit one man. Wright on expat by luck.   Do what if this. Makes infantry deadly is their ability to not be hit.

[MadCapellan]

I'm pretty sure you are misunderstanding the infantry in buildings rule.  I'm fairly certain that a unit in a Light Building takes 75% damage while the building takes 25%, a Medium is 50/50, a Heavy is 75% building damage 25% unit damage, and only a Hardened building soaks all damage for the unit therein.

Ergo, infantry in a typical home or building (light) would still be taking around 5 damage on average per MG shot, with the remaining 2 going to the building.

[Sartris]

I'm pretty sure you are misunderstanding the infantry in buildings rule.  I'm fairly certain that a unit in a Light Building takes 75% damage while the building takes 25%, a Medium is 50/50, a Heavy is 75% building damage 25% unit damage, and only a Hardened building soaks all damage for the unit therein.

Ergo, infantry in a typical home or building (light) would still be taking around 5 damage on average per MG shot, with the remaining 2 going to the building.

+1

Though remember shooting infantry in buildings with weapons like SPLs and MGs negates their anti-infantry properties. 

[mensa12345]

I always thought the SRM2 was a much better anti infantry weapon.  I had a Firestarter varient that replaced three flamers for three SRM2s and the last for a ton of inferno.  Good for what ails ya.   [madflame]

[Jim1701]

I'm pretty sure you are misunderstanding the infantry in buildings rule.  I'm fairly certain that a unit in a Light Building takes 75% damage while the building takes 25%, a Medium is 50/50, a Heavy is 75% building damage 25% unit damage, and only a Hardened building soaks all damage for the unit therein.

Ergo, infantry in a typical home or building (light) would still be taking around 5 damage on average per MG shot, with the remaining 2 going to the building.

Close, the building always takes full (non - infantry) damage from the weapon.  So a machine gun would do 3 damage to the building.  In addition the infantry would take damage based on the percentage you laid out.  Note that burst weapons lose their anti-AI damage bonuses when firing into a building and other weapons (at least according to the example on pg. 172) the damage that would be applied to the infantry unit would be reduced per the non-infantry weapon damage against infantry table on pg 216.

From the example on pg. 172:

A controlling player wishes his ’Mech to attack a conventional infantry unit hiding in a medium building hex, so the ’Mech must strike the building rather than the infantry. However, the ’Mech still only infl icts damage as per the Non-Infantry Weapon Damage against Infantry Table (see p. 216). The ’Mech fires a large pulse laser (Pulse Weapon) and an Autocannon 20 (Direct-Fire Ballistic Weapon). 

From the large pulse laser 10 points of damage is applied to the CF of the building hex, while 50 percent of the damage, Damage Value 5, is passed on to the infantry unit. The player than compares the Damage Value 5 to the Non-Infantry Weapon Damage Against Infantry Table, and notes that 3 troopers are eliminated. 

From the AC/20 20 points of damage is applied to the CF of
the building hex, while once again 50 percent of that damage, Damage Value 10, is passed on to the infantry unit. After consulting the table once again, he determines that the remaining damage eliminates a single trooper.

[Jim1701]

But back the original topic, outside of buildings I prefer using flechette ammo for AC's or frag ammo for LRM's to deal with infantry.  The they are in a building and I don't care about the building then I just knock the building down in whatever means are easiest.

[Spheroid]

You always have the option of crashing through the wall and going Kentares on their ***es.

The rules are perfect.  Battlemechs need a very good reason to be hanging out in cities.  Mechs should laying seige to an urban area or attempting a breakout or possibily making a B line to a high value target in which case you can simply bypass the troublesome infantry that are taking pot shots at you.

[Sartris]

You always have the option of crashing through the wall and going Kentares on their ***es.

The rules are perfect.  Battlemechs need a very good reason to be hanging out in cities.  Mechs should laying seige to an urban area or attempting a breakout or possibily making a B line to a high value target in which case you can simply bypass the troublesome infantry that are taking pot shots at you.

Unless of course your opponent has hidden several dozen to 100+ infantry platoons in and around said high-value target.  Not that I've ever done that before.  O:-)

[Daemion]

I'm pretty sure you are misunderstanding the infantry in buildings rule.  I'm fairly certain that a unit in a Light Building takes 75% damage while the building takes 25%, a Medium is 50/50, a Heavy is 75% building damage 25% unit damage, and only a Hardened building soaks all damage for the unit therein.

Ergo, infantry in a typical home or building (light) would still be taking around 5 damage on average per MG shot, with the remaining 2 going to the building.

Edit: Someone beat me to it.

Now, if they were treated in the manner you suggested, I wouldn't have any problems. But they aren't. And, that is a hold-over from the BMR, minus the non-IW versus IW comparison.

The they are in a building and I don't care about the building then I just knock the building down in whatever means are easiest.

Actually, we do a lot of scenerio or RP based games. So, when someone is supposed to be taking a city, like a small merc force that may be forced to pay for damages, demolishing a building should be something of a last resort.

Battlemechs need a very good reason to be hanging out in cities.  Mechs should laying seige to an urban area or attempting a breakout or possibily making a B line to a high value target in which case you can simply bypass the troublesome infantry that are taking pot shots at you.

So, instead of going into a city, any games should be set up around actions that would drive a city to surrender in a siege situation? Like building a damn to cut off water supplies? I had such a thought the other day, since water seems to be a major reason for fighting. But, sieges aren't very romantic and take some time before the besieged finally succumb.

Is siege warfare how it's normally done for conquering planets?

[Jim1701]

So, instead of going into a city, any games should be set up around actions that would drive a city to surrender in a siege situation? Like building a damn to cut off water supplies? I had such a thought the other day, since water seems to be a major reason for fighting. But, sieges aren't very romantic and take some time before the besieged finally succumb.

Is siege warfare how it's normally done for conquering planets?

Not necessarily a siege situation.  An invader may or may not care about keeping facilities intact.  The defender is going to want to (generally) keep their facilities in one piece if they can help it.  So if an invader is driving towards a city then the defenders have up to 4 options.  They can invest the city and hope the invaders want it intact (siege option) though if the invaders don't care about keeping the city intact then you end up with a city fight.  They can intercept the forces outside the city and attempt to drive them off or they can surrender the city due to strategic considerations.  The last option would be more in line with a campaign style setting where multiple battles might be fought with same forces. 

[Spheroid]

Actually, we do a lot of scenerio or RP based games. So, when someone is supposed to be taking a city, like a small merc force that may be forced to pay for damages, demolishing a building should be something of a last resort.

A 30 meter hex isn't that big.  I live in a smallish town and our industrial buildings usually have warehouses and factories that span several acres.  A battlemech could enter such sized buildings and directly engage infantry without the building soaking up the damage.

Do your games involve buildings that are small like multi-story brownstones?

I figure many types of buildings could survive mech entry.

Mosque/Church
School gymnasium
Commerical bank
Agricultural equipmech shed
factory
warehouse
banquet hall
powerplant

[JadeHellbringer]

MGs work fine. My problem is that to use it, you have to walk right up in the infantry's face- you know, that place where they SHOOT BACK from usually.

It's a balance thing, no doubt, but it still sucks to get pummeled by infantry when using an MG/flamer/SPL to kill them.

Makes that SRM-2 with Infernos a lot handier in the long run. Maybe the Peacemaker had the right idea after all.

[Spheroid]

MGs work fine. My problem is that to use it, you have to walk right up in the infantry's face- you know, that place where they SHOOT BACK from usually.

It's a balance thing, no doubt, but it still sucks to get pummeled by infantry when using an MG/flamer/SPL to kill them.

Makes that SRM-2 with Infernos a lot handier in the long run. Maybe the Peacemaker had the right idea after all.

 Ferro-Lamellor Piranha + Anti-Missile System FTW

[Peter Smith]

This has me wondering two things. A) What are those buildings made of? B) What are infantry made of? Anything else suggests a power drop on the part of the armored units, and that doesn't fit well with the idea of a hyper futurealistic setting.

Unless you're shooting at infantry in an all-glass building you're probably not going to see them. If you can't see them, how are you going to hit them? There's blind luck (pun intended), but that's about it. BattleTech sensors are slick, but we're not talking Star Trek uberSensor systems.

[Fireangel]

I like pairing MGs and LMGs; the extra range of the LMG definitely helps when you have range category 2 or less PBI's shooting at you, and the extra 2 points / 2d6 v PBI makes for a nice dissuader without risking setting the whole city on fire. By the same token, the LMG adds its 1 point / 1d6 v PBI to the MG at all ranges, even with a better "to hit" than the MG alone.

[False Son]

it's still a 6 BV gun with 0 heat generation and the highest ammo per tonnage, and allows 1/2 ton ammo allotments.

[Crunch]

it's still a 6 BV gun with 0 heat generation and the highest ammo per tonnage, and allows 1/2 ton ammo allotments.

And it almost never starts fires, which if you're using it as an anti infantry weapon in an urban area you don't want to destroy is a bonus.

[I am Belch II]

Its a crit weapon. If you go inside it dose lots of damage!

[Akalabeth]

Er, I'm not 100% sure but I think if you ENTER a building and attack another unit inside the building then the building still absorbs damage.

[HikageMaru]

A 30 meter hex isn't that big.  I live in a smallish town and our industrial buildings usually have warehouses and factories that span several acres.  A battlemech could enter such sized buildings and directly engage infantry without the building soaking up the damage.

Do your games involve buildings that are small like multi-story brownstones?

I figure many types of buildings could survive mech entry.

Mosque/Church
School gymnasium
Commerical bank
Agricultural equipmech shed
factory
warehouse
banquet hall
powerplant

Aircraft hanger.

[Jim1701]

Er, I'm not 100% sure but I think if you ENTER a building and attack another unit inside the building then the building still absorbs damage.

Yes, but not as much.  None for light and medium buildings, 25% for heavy and 50% for hardened.  Also, building hexes act as light woods hexes for purposes of determining LOS and to hit modifiers.

[Daemion]

Yes, but not as much.  None for light and medium buildings, 25% for heavy and 50% for hardened.  Also, building hexes act as light woods hexes for purposes of determining LOS and to hit modifiers.

But damage is still applied as non-infantry firing weapons... unless you happen to be infantry. So, you're still only killing one guy at a time.

Unless you're shooting at infantry in an all-glass building you're probably not going to see them. If you can't see them, how are you going to hit them? There's blind luck (pun intended), but that's about it. BattleTech sensors are slick, but we're not talking Star Trek uberSensor systems.

Hello: Open faces and mouths equal heat source. BattleMechs have IR sensors, and their computers are pretty slick and can probably pick up on that. In fact, I recall reading such things in various novels, like Heir to the Dragon and the first of the Clan invasion books.

Or, are you referring to point-blank attacks from hidden units? As soon as someone powers up a weapon, pokes out the barrel or exposes part of him or herself, any armored unit with a decent sensor suite is going to notice. (Hence why attackers that use the point blank attacks are revealed as soon as they do.) Are you suggesting that firing back isn't going to catch more than one someone with his head still up?

A 30 meter hex isn't that big. 

100 feet is still 100 feet. Most houses are hardly that wide. Most don't even come close. That is, unless design practices have changed in 700 to 1000 years. (Which I can imagine might be the case.)

Sub-urban areas would be chalk full of tiny little houses, again assuming that living spaces are still cheaply designed. See, I too live in a small town, and I'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of buildings that actually take up a full hex. I happen to be sitting in one right now while I type: The Library.

In a city, that's something else entirely. Same with industrial areas. My town's Wal-Mart is a multi-hex ordeal. Don't know if it's exactly tall enough, though.

Still, this has made me momentarily reconsider whether my interpretations of 'buildings' needs reconsideration, along with infantry.

But, it does nothing for the fact that one of three dedicated weapon systems to a particular role - anti-infantry - don't really fulfill it all that well where it's needed most, and yet they get accolades for it in the fiction. (I hope people realize that they function the same on tanks, too, and this is not just about Mechs, but armored vehicles using these weapons in general. That's right. Your precious tanks, too, are unable to dish out the punishment that they should.)

[Nebfer]

A 1600 square foot home is only 150 square meters, a hex has about 780 square meters of area, so with say 260 square meters of area (2800 square feet) per residential lot, you could fit three houses per hex (and a small but decent yard each).

Though at times B-tech dose seem to indicate that their is some IR stealthing going on that is independent of Stealth armor.

A few fluff examples TRO prototypes mentions that the Elemental Mk II and the enhanced Sylph are a lot harder to hide than the other suits due to their improved myomers, which produce a larger IR sig than other suits. In other words they can not hide due to their IR sig being to great, however other units can hide despite what their IR sig happens to be.
One BC story has active battlemechs blending in with Trees quite well, at lest until the tress got blown away and they start moving.

[Fireangel]

Let me offer the perspective of scale:

In the following pic (by yours truly) the hexes are 15 feet across and people are 5-6 feet tall, which has precisely the same ratio of a 30m hex and a 10-12m 'mech. If you stand next to a 12" GI Joe or Barbie action figure/doll, you will have the exact same ratio of a human being (the doll) standing next to a 'mech (you).



Yeah, I know... one of these days I'm going to take a pic of myself or some poor victim next to a 12" soldier in this place.

[Fallen_Raven]

So the planters are light woods right?

[Moonsword]

Yeah, I know... one of these days I'm going to take a pic of myself or some poor victim next to a 12" soldier in this place.

With an arrangement like that, we're only some laser pointers and 'Mech costumes away from a really crazy LARP.

[I am Belch II]

The   Piranha is quite a deadly mech with its 12 machine guns. So with mass quantys of them, quite deadly!

[A. Lurker]

Unless you're shooting at infantry in an all-glass building you're probably not going to see them. If you can't see them, how are you going to hit them? There's blind luck (pun intended), but that's about it. BattleTech sensors are slick, but we're not talking Star Trek uberSensor systems.

In fact, based on the rules (most notably the various TacOps movement and to-hit penalties for poor visibility) a case could be made that BT sensors must actually suck pretty hard and pilots have to rely on ye olde Mk I eyeball so much that anything that interferes with that really screws up their act...