Author Topic: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity  (Read 2391 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #60 on: 22 March 2024, 01:52:26 »
I'm not even sure I actually read that novel.  I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the details from the early Clan lore that got shuffled off into the "we're going to pretend it didn't happen" corner.

Honestly, I doubt it. Clan society, particularly among the warrior cast, is structured to try to strip the intimacy out of sex, and Clan warriors are taught to treat it as no big deal (whether or not they can actually be psychologically wired to think that way).

And... um... not to put to fine a point on it, but clan society encourages the strong to take what they want from the weak. It's literally a society whose leaders are brought into adulthood through a deliberate system of relentless pressure, competition, and abuse. It would be naive to assume that the clans somehow limit their conduct based on a moral regard for something that they have been systematically trying to trivialize.

To expand on the main discussion, I'll also add something I found in the Warrior's of Kerensky book: For the lower castes refusal to accept an arranged marriage can result in penalties ranging from fines to chemical reprograming, torture, or even execution depending on the clan.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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parable

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #61 on: 22 March 2024, 02:47:53 »

Agreed. Where is the Zardoz (Zed) of the Clans? Where?!?

You know full well it's Clan Nova Cat's ceremonial garb and I am working on putting that outfit together.  A leather cat headpiece with quills is costly and time-consuming to source.

edit:
To expand on the main discussion, I'll also add something I found in the Warrior's of Kerensky book: For the lower castes refusal to accept an arranged marriage can result in penalties ranging from fines to chemical reprograming, torture, or even execution depending on the clan.

It's very reminiscent of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.  Everyone necessarily belongs to one another, exclusive intimacy is a subversion of Clanlike thought.  But I think that level of control is restricted to the lower castes, because the resources for truebirth are of course allocated to the Warrior and, perhaps the Scientist castes.  If you're a Warrior, while it'd be gauche to impregnate or be impregnated, you have an exception built in due to your caste.  The general facts do go towards the brutality of the Clans, but it'd be a bit presumptive to say how they control their serfs reflects on how they treat their juniors and new recruits.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2024, 03:02:52 by parable »
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #62 on: 22 March 2024, 03:14:07 »
It's very reminiscent of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.  Everyone necessarily belongs to one another, exclusive intimacy is a subversion of Clanlike thought.  But I think that level of control is restricted to the lower castes, because the resources for truebirth are of course allocated to the Warrior and, perhaps the Scientist castes.  If you're a Warrior, while it'd be gauche to impregnate or be impregnated, you have an exception built in due to your caste.  The general facts do go towards the brutality of the Clans, but it'd be a bit presumptive to say how they control their serfs reflects on how they treat their juniors and new recruits.

I mean, how they treat their juniors and new recruits is kinda laid out in black and white in the novel series meant to introduce us to life in the clans. No presumption required.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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parable

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #63 on: 22 March 2024, 03:35:26 »
I mean, how they treat their juniors and new recruits is kinda laid out in black and white in the novel series meant to introduce us to life in the clans. No presumption required.

I suppose I need to read more Battletech novels then.  Definitely have a few queued up, I suppose this is the impetus I needed to actually start reading them.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #64 on: 22 March 2024, 03:54:38 »
For the lower castes refusal to accept an arranged marriage can result in penalties ranging from fines to chemical reprograming, torture, or even execution depending on the clan.

And to add to this point, this isn't some outdated bit of Clan lore, either. As noted in Dominions Divided, the Rasalhague Dominion (which is easily the most socially liberal of Clans, given their merger with their Spheroid populations) literally just did away with their eugenically-arranged marriages as recently as 3137. It's also one of the reasons that the Freeminder movement exists in the first place. Which to me indicates that this is probably still the norm amongst the other Clans, with the possible exception of the Scorpion Empire.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #65 on: 22 March 2024, 05:34:14 »
There is a line in the book Warriors of Kerensky that is helpful here. Page 52.

While the Inner Sphere regards sex as an act of intimacy that is part of a relationship. The warrior caste regard it as part of a friendship. Coupling with friends, comrades, is fairly routine.

(To be sure, I might put Joanna's actions with the cadets in a different category. But as someone else noted, warriors are weird. Power dynamics, including having and exercising power over others, is an accepted and even encouraged part of life in some ways. Clan warriors also do have hierarchy but also blur the lines of their professional and interpersonal lives quite a bit. Cadets are also basically not treated like civilian children, they are forced to grow up very quickly and assimilate into Clan warrior culture. By my eyes in the real world, its bad behavior, even illegal behavior, to a Clan warrior's eyes? It might be, or it might not. If I was a BT writer today, I probably wouldn't plug that behavior into some fiction I was writing today, because of how the READERS would perceive it, as well as how uncomfortable it might make me feel as the author. But truth be told, if you are willing to embrace the uncomfortable, there is a slimmer of a chance here that Joanna's actions were regarded as normal, due to cultural differences. However, I don't recall the novel where this was depicted making that clear at all, so it was very much left up to reader interpretration. If I was advising that author today, who was writing that novel today, I would suggest plugging in some clarity on this front, perhaps through a 3rd party warrior, like a superior of Joanna's, somehow addressing how normal or abnormal her behavior was. Because the lack of that clarity makes it difficult to interpret what you are reading and how you are supposed to feel about it.)

Pivoting to lower caste marriages and families...

Among the lower castes, the respect for the arranged marriages is there, it represents the lowest form of genetics, orchestrated by the scientist caste. You are supposed to reproduce with the assigned marital partner. But it says that the Clans don't hold the institution of marriage in the same regard, and so coupling outside of the marriage is rather common by Inner Sphere standards. As long as precautions are taken and it doesn't result in offspring, it isn't breaking the rules, and the scientists tend to "turn a blind eye" toward it.

Page 37 also tells us that many marriages are formed the conventional way (i.e. meet someone, fall in love etc.) and the scientist caste really just rubber stamp approves those.

The conclusion I'm left with based on that book is that the Clans really don't like you to be single and not reproducing. If you meet someone fairly young (say as a teenager) within your caste and decide you want to marry and reproduce with that person, the Clans are likely to approve that. If you haven't found a marital partner within a certain timeframe (years have gone by...), a spouse will be assigned to you. That's for life. So you are supposed to be married and reproducing. If you are coupling with other people outside of the marriage, that's fine in the eyes of the Clan, just no children.

We also know that outside of Clan Ghost Bear, most children are raised in community creches.

WoK tells us in the Ghost Bear section that the Ghost Bear lower caste families are closer to the Inner Sphere norm. It says instead of children being raised in community creches, they remain with their parents and those community creches more closely resemble daycare. The parents take care of their children as much as they can while still performing their duties.

So what that tells me about the rest of the Clans is that most lower caste Clan family life is very different. You are reproducing and your children are being sent off to a community creche as their permanent home and education facility.

That makes sense when you consider that most lower caste children are tested at a young age and their caste assignment determined them (source WoK education section). So, if you are laborer parents and a child of yours is assigned to the scientist caste, that individual's life, education and everything else is going to look very different from your own, even from a young age starting as early as the young childhood education they will receive. In essence the Clan is going to pull that child away from their laborer parents and start to put them with other scientist caste children and adults as soon as possible.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2024, 08:12:24 by Alan Grant »

Jazzhands Licker

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #66 on: 22 March 2024, 10:30:30 »
As someone who is reading the Legend of the Jade Falcon Trilogy right now.  In Chapter 8 of  Ter Roshak talks about how he, in one of his first person POV chapters, could use his command privilege to order any of the sibko cadets or even Joanne to sleep with him, and he complains how much Joanne prefers the young cadets.

Now this book is written from the point of a particular training cadre on a particular planet dealing only with Jade Falcons.  However, I do find it creepy, and I certainly have zero desire to "defend" any Clan actions.  I just consider the Clans different and will play them in games without worrying about who's "bad" or "good".  It's a game.

BrianDavion

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #67 on: 22 March 2024, 13:36:14 »
You know full well it's Clan Nova Cat's ceremonial garb and I am working on putting that outfit together.  A leather cat headpiece with quills is costly and time-consuming to source.

edit:
It's very reminiscent of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.  Everyone necessarily belongs to one another, exclusive intimacy is a subversion of Clanlike thought.  But I think that level of control is restricted to the lower castes, because the resources for truebirth are of course allocated to the Warrior and, perhaps the Scientist castes.  If you're a Warrior, while it'd be gauche to impregnate or be impregnated, you have an exception built in due to your caste.  The general facts do go towards the brutality of the Clans, but it'd be a bit presumptive to say how they control their serfs reflects on how they treat their juniors and new recruits.

you're assuming warriors aren't restricted by the system as well... that's not born out by what we actually see. the latest issue of Sharpnal actually deals with a clan warrior having a freebirth child, it's made pretty clear this is.... something of a scandal
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #68 on: 22 March 2024, 14:03:06 »
Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #69 on: 22 March 2024, 15:07:46 »
Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.

It's already canon that Clan warriors are given birth control implants to prevent them from getting pregnant.  Don't think that's something they can just get around.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #70 on: 22 March 2024, 15:13:45 »
Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.

I'd imagine that most, if not all, Clan warriors would be aghast at the idea of forgoing combat, trials, and training for any reason, let alone one that could've been outsourced to an Iron Womb.  Black mark on the Codex aside, they'd be abdicating their very reason for existence--again, as you say, for a personal indulgence.
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #71 on: 22 March 2024, 20:00:09 »
you're assuming warriors aren't restricted by the system as well... that's not born out by what we actually see. the latest issue of Sharpnal actually deals with a clan warrior having a freebirth child, it's made pretty clear this is.... something of a scandal


Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.

It is/was a scandal and it certainly does affect warrior's codex and career but it definitely does happen

We have example of Smoke Jaguar mech pilot who gave birth to two or three kids (ilClan RecGuide)

Other warriors were clutching their pearls but she kept doing her thing anyway and was still piloting Stone Rhino

So if it flies with Jaguars it definitely flies with other Clans even more frequently


« Last Edit: 22 March 2024, 20:03:11 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #72 on: 22 March 2024, 20:50:25 »
It's already canon that Clan warriors are given birth control implants to prevent them from getting pregnant.  Don't think that's something they can just get around.

And yet Diana Pryde happened. Though I suppose she might have washed out of the warrior caste before she got implanted.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2024, 21:00:31 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #73 on: 22 March 2024, 20:51:36 »
And yet Diana Pryde happened.

Because Peri figured out how to turn it off before she flunked out of being a warrior.  It was how she ended up in the Scientist caste.  The novels repeatedly stressed just how unique the situation was.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #74 on: 22 March 2024, 21:03:13 »
We have example of Smoke Jaguar mech pilot who gave birth to two or three kids (ilClan RecGuide)

Other warriors were clutching their pearls but she kept doing her thing anyway and was still piloting Stone Rhino

What RecGuide is this in? It's certainly not in the Stone Rhino one.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #75 on: 22 March 2024, 21:06:27 »
It would actually be dumb to completely prevent births of the women of the Warrior Caste by giving them permanent birth control. However the men could all get vasectomies which would allow them to couple as much as they please without affecting their performance. Very few individuals make it to their final Trial of Position. You are far more likely to be removed for failing to measure up as Peri had. Trueborn female rejects might even be preferred partners for the more eugenically minded Scientists as they are more likely to produce 'superior' freeborns (like Diana) that could have a claim to a bloodname (although no clan would ever conduct such a trial).

Now could they dose them with the right kinds that it make pregnancy unlikely for a time until their system corrected? That's probably more likely.
Accelerating that recovery process could be what Peri did in order to have Diana as soon after her reassignment as she had (the improbability thing). Because I don't remember if its dated but Diana was born in time to take part in Tukayyid so she must have been 17-22 in 3052 and Peri was decanted in 3012.

She was I believe even meant to pair with one of her colleagues but chose Aidan instead.

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #76 on: 22 March 2024, 21:10:38 »
It would actually be dumb to completely prevent births of the women of the Warrior Caste by giving them permanent birth control.

Not being sarcastic here, but why would that be dumb? Between the Clans keeping all of their warriors' genetic material on file, having the iron womb technology, and knowing that the scientists perform both sanctioned and unsanctioned breeding combinations, I don't really see a downside to them doing something like this if they so chose.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #77 on: 22 March 2024, 21:13:47 »
Besides, if Peri "turned off" the birth control mechanism, it's clearly not very permanent.  It's simply automatic until altered. 
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #78 on: 22 March 2024, 21:40:33 »
Not being sarcastic here, but why would that be dumb? Between the Clans keeping all of their warriors' genetic material on file, having the iron womb technology, and knowing that the scientists perform both sanctioned and unsanctioned breeding combinations, I don't really see a downside to them doing something like this if they so chose.

Because you are wasting genetic potential and Iron Wombs like Jumpship Collars or Warships are precious and limited resources to everyone. Testdowns aren't going to be added to the selection criteria for Trueborn, only Bloodnames get that honor, but they can be repurposed.

If every sibko is 50-50 m/f and only 3-10 individuals make it through the selection process you could have something like 70-80 testdowns (minus some casualties) half of which could be women that would be 'improving the genetic health' of your freeborn population each cycle. Scale that up to however many sibkos are bred each year and that's a lot of waste that could be converted to gain by simply letting their IUDs lapse or whatever over time.

Most of that selection is probably done pre-puberty (probably at least 70% with multiple early sibkos merging to a bigger training sibko) however so it would only be the women that were exceptional that would be given the birth control. These women are exceptional, and thus even though they might not make it to the end that doesn't mean they can't produce exceptional freeborn offspring in whatever Caste they are reassigned to and thus it would be a waste to render them unable to do so.

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #79 on: 22 March 2024, 21:52:35 »
Quote
Because Peri figured out how to turn it off before she flunked out of being a warrior.  It was how she ended up in the Scientist caste.  The novels repeatedly stressed just how unique the situation was.

Actually, it was probably turned off (or the implant ran out of the drug) when she was in the scientist caste and met up with Aidan after he failed his first ToP.

Quote
However the men could all get vasectomies which would allow them to couple as much as they please without affecting their performance.

If they tested down from the warrior caste and need to have kids the old fashioned way? I doubt they would get vasectomies for this reason, and the clans probably will prohibit it.

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #80 on: 22 March 2024, 22:18:55 »
If they tested down from the warrior caste and need to have kids the old fashioned way? I doubt they would get vasectomies for this reason, and the clans probably will prohibit it.

You can reverse it, there are few side effects, and the recovery time is swift. The whole process (or a reversal) could easily be conducted in transit to a new system and it requires no ongoing maintenance.  They can freely couple with their female colleagues with no harm to performance or bonding to either party. If they can clone and install eyeballs a simple procedure like that (or direct extraction of genetic material from the testes for IVF should a reversal fail or be deemed unsuitable) would be child's play.

Additionally hormonal birth control does play havoc with female biochemistry affecting their performance which means you get a 'lesser,' more 'artificial' candidate whose status needs to be constantly maintained. One would hope that future methods have less side effects but as you need two to tango they are the one that stands to lose the greatest potential via pregnancy and impose an ongoing cost. Thus the one less affected (males) should be the logical choice within the vacuum of cultural norms.

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #81 on: 22 March 2024, 23:26:22 »
What RecGuide is this in? It's certainly not in the Stone Rhino one.

Made a mistake, it's Ostscout, solahama MechWarrior Terrelise

Why the hell did I remember Stone Rhino? Need to read those again, memory is getting hazy



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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #82 on: 23 March 2024, 00:30:27 »

It is/was a scandal and it certainly does affect warrior's codex and career but it definitely does happen

We have example of Smoke Jaguar mech pilot who gave birth to two or three kids (ilClan RecGuide)

Other warriors were clutching their pearls but she kept doing her thing anyway and was still piloting Stone Rhino

So if it flies with Jaguars it definitely flies with other Clans even more frequently

Two kids, and she was already a solahma who was assigned to an infantry formation on Huntress, so her career couldn't have gotten more dead without outright ejecting her from the Warrior Caste.  She had to fight to get back into a mech later, once Russell Howell got some captured Inner Sphere machines shipped back to Huntress.  She wasn't piloting a mech when she got pregnant.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #83 on: 23 March 2024, 06:28:58 »
Since we came to the talk of the arranged marriages one point should be considered:

the traditional marriage is more or less "dead" within the Clans. Nicolas Kerensky introduced several reforms when he prepared his Clans and one of them (which is still active) is the arranged marriage system. Though the reason is different now. When Kerensky introduced it it was to produce more children for his society and it wasn't mandatory. Men and women could volunteer for "selective matchmaking" based on genertic compatability rather then an emotional one and if they produced viable children they would be rewarded with then scarce resources. Scientist noted that while the amount of births skyrocketed traditional family values died. Next was the fostering of children taking the children "away" from their parents. Again, a way to eliminate the traditional family. And of course later came the artifical wombs. There is one diary entry from a Mechwarrior who says "Now the lab coats are calling the shots. We don't need love and we don't even need sex. Someone should have burned Darwin at the stake when he had the chance". Of course we don't know if this measure was only temporary to swell the population or if this was meant to be permanent. There wasn't even a divide between Trueborn and Freeborn at first. Kind of funny how Trueborn often regard themsaelves as superior when they are all descending from freeborn humans just with some genetic modification / purification

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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #84 on: 24 March 2024, 12:43:15 »
I think it's a fictional universe and as long as you confine your take on it to your AU and your games, no worries.

But, as for the Clans as a whole...

TLDR: Rather than being a fertile field for those on the LGBT+ spectrum, I think the Clans are more likely to be a fountain of sexualized evil and in fact; quite down on the variant gender expressions we see today.

***

I've been looking a lot at the Clans and their cultural development for my Der Tag AU and I'm not sure all that sunny an outlook is likely. I take pride in a realistic approach to the setting and the Clans are a whole bucket of bad news for anything and everything sexual. In Der Tag, I have to have them go through a transformation to a stable state that is not going to just be a factory for sexually-abused/abusive psychopaths unleashed on battlefields, because I think we've seen the limits of what can be done with that in the failed invasion.

The most-recent study IRL I am aware of indicates that sexuality has both genetic and environmental markers. The environmental portion will be most unkind in the Clans.

I think if the Clans could have just edited out sexuality from their trueborn breeding program, then they would have. The writers certainly left enough weirdness in, so that was a choice, likely for relatability. Go read Haldeman's Forever War/Peace/Free to see what a masterpiece of alienation you can produce by creating a universe designed *not* to relate to the reader.

I sincerely worry for the future of the Clans as a faction, if this is a rabbit hole TPTB go down, because as-is, they have created a culture shockingly likely to condone and normalized sexually abusive behaviour at all levels. Frankly; with the normalized putative incest of the Sibko program, it's bad enough from where we are now.

Looking at the Clans, I think that gender is something that is going to be more or less irrelevant to them and in a very negative sense. A Clansman (gender-neutral term) is going to see themselves not as man/woman/other, but as Warrior/Scientist/Merchant/Tech/Labourer. Achieving sexual gratification and physical attraction will be secondary considerations. Some are probably even effectively preferentially-asexual through a rigorus regimen of self-denial.

Within that spectrum, however; what we would relate to as pan-sexuality, or alternatively: an attraction to competency or achievement would be much more common than what we have now.

That's fine for peers.

It's less-good for subordinates and lower-castemen (gender-neutral term), where the Clan-system is wide-open for abuse. Now, it may be arguably written as culturally-frowned upon (but I've read all the original novels and a few SBs and I don't see that in place at all), but in the Clans, rank seem to 'hath it's privileges and these will be weighed against the social and practical counter-weights of saying "no" if a person wants to.

That comes in to this conversation when your superior in rank or caste wants to get off and you don't want to help them. Clan culture is going to thus lean to a balance where one's own gender and preferences are less-relevant to this situation than your station in life. So at that level; I think the Clans would be a "Hole is a hole" people with a heavily caveated understanding of consent.

The implications for the trial system are disturbing.

But the OP mentioned surgery. Probably not.

I think that any Clan would call that a waste. Throughout the books we have many references to Clansmen of all castes looking at nearly any degree of extraneous attention to one's appearance as a disgraceful vanity and that attitude will extend to any form of body/gender dismorphia being treated as an example of a genetic/mental defect. Such a person will be quickly consigned to Dezga status, solahma or even the dark caste.

But...what about a trial for it? Maybe. But there are going to be limits, stark and low-bar. Clan medicine may theoretically trump anything else going, but it will not practically extend to anything cosmetic. Your body needs to work to serve the Clan, not your psyche and anything that compromises that needlessly will be prohibited. The base MedTechs will be able to handle skin-grafts and maybe cloned limbs and internal organs, but not gender-afirming care.

The Clans probably aren't even going to be practical for cross-dressing, due to how they value conformity and are generally down on extensive personal possessions. A culture that doesn't have time for physical beauty won't have time for anyone's unusual wardrobe, either. But if your dress is practical? Maybe. Merc units or Solaris are better options. As far back as MW1 (the game), we had NPCs who wore gimp-suits in the cockpit and Sorenson's Sabres (Kurita regulars) gave us Vernon Morrone, with his 24/7 full-face mask. So there are indications that there is more tolerance there.

I considered writing more about the Sibkos here...but I'm just not up for it. This stuff takes it out of me.

Suffice to say that from just what we have in the Jade Falcon books, the Sibkos are a factory for monsters. The whole system is rife for abuse. Particularly when looked at through a multi-generational lens and maybe that's part of why decent warriors don't want to go there as staff. Gender Identity and sexuality in the Clans is something that is going to be shaped for Trueborns in the Sibkos. Revoltingly often by their instructors. We see this with Joanna and Aiden in the Jade Phoenix trilogy.

Joanna probably waited a lot longer than other Falconers would have before just ordering him to her bed. That this can happen at all in Clan culture has chilling implications, but it comes down to a culture where your sexuality and gender identity can be forcibly adapted to the situation by your superiors.

Apply the same notion to subordinate castes, but figure that "Slumming it" likely has social/sexual implications in the Clans comparable to slave owners taking privileges with their slaves throughout history.

It's not a good scene all around, but it may explain some otherwise inexplicably bad actors at any/all levels of Clan Society. One of the main limitations of human depravity being that people tend not to limit their depraved behaviour to one small aspect of their lives, but tend to be dysfunctional in other areas as well. Which makes the physical punishment and control of the trail system seem all that much more attractive as a practical tool. Consider further the implications for a system where even the very good actors feel compelled to turn a blind eye to these activities because "it is how it has always been", or "the system works".

So what I have done in my AU is to use the Warrior Caste and trials system to bring back a kind of stable family unit (and also a degree of petty nobility) to this corner of the setting to allow for the potential for reform and recovery in the years post-Jihad, without changing what the Clans are, conceptually. I still don't have a way to bring extensive sexual/gender identity variation into the Clans plausibly, but that hasn't been a goal for me, either. I did make Stone and Lear a couple though, so there is that if it matters to you. But then, my Magistracy's cultural zeitgeist is autogynophilia, so that may be a wash anyways.

Bottom line is that with the setting *as-written*, I would lament for the fate of any person born into the Clans, but particularly someone who feels trapped in the wrong body. Hell; "Trapped in the wrong caste" is no picnic, either. I'd imagine that the particularly-variant phenotypes have similar issues as-well.

Unless your kink (YKIOKWM) is a pansexual dominance hierarchy with a sexually-available underclass, where your own sexuality is subject to the whims of your superiors, the Clans are going to be pretty rough feed in that respect.

And if you're wondering how I got here, as I said; I read all the pre-dark-age novels, and a number of sourcebooks. I'm a student of human nature, including crime and indoctrination and I just took the Clans as-written, particularly by Stackpole and added human nature to that.

I'll book-end this by reiterating that if this is something important to you, then by-all-means have it in your games, your fanfic, your AU. The universe is here for you to enjoy and variant sexualities are going to be a part of an adult version of that universe. The novels being written to YA-standards doesn't stop us from extrapolating from known data. I am not against any one individual, but I am against retcons; so the negativity you sense here is that attitude; I don't want to see the Clans RetConned for any reason. I don't want to see any RetCons for any reason. I think that if we start applying adult logic and sexuality to the Clans, we are going to end up with a morass of evil RetCon-bait. To avoid that happening, I'd prefer TPTB steer clear of exploring this aspect of the Clans as-written.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #85 on: 24 March 2024, 13:52:21 »
To add a little point to this point, which I largely agree with, even as recently as the novel "Jaguar's Leap", we saw a bondsman that viewed his body as his bondholder's to do with as she will sexually. So I wouldn't say the thing with Joanna ordering people to her bed is some out-of-date bit of canon, but instead is the norm.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #86 on: 24 March 2024, 14:08:00 »
...I think the Clans are more likely to be a fountain of sexualized evil and in fact; quite down on the variant gender expressions we see today.

***

......

I sincerely worry for the future of the Clans as a faction, if this is a rabbit hole TPTB go down, because as-is, they have created a culture shockingly likely to condone and normalized sexually abusive behaviour at all levels.  .....
....

Sexualized evil and normalized sexually abusive behavior was a staple of feudal societies which spanned majority of human history and which in-universe have officially become standard default again

Therefore our worry for the future should extend to all BT factions not just Clans





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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #87 on: 24 March 2024, 14:28:41 »
Sexualized evil and normalized sexually abusive behavior was a staple of feudal societies which spanned majority of human history and which in-universe have officially become standard default again

Therefore our worry for the future should extend to all BT factions not just Clans

That's... not what feudalism is in the BattleTech universe. Like, at all. I suggest reading page 4 of Era Digest: Age of War to get the actual definition of feudalism as it pertains to this setting, because it's not at all what you're suggesting.

There is exactly zero evidence that BattleTech's neo-feudalism has resulted in normalized, societal-level sexual abuse. In fact, the only non-Clan canon examples I can think of off the top of my head that involve sexual abuse (Caleb's rape of Danai, Daoshen's incestuous abuse of Ilsa) are very, very frowned upon in-universe and not considered "the norm".
« Last Edit: 24 March 2024, 14:31:08 by tassa_kay »
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
Favorite Factions: Capellan Confederation • Clan Blood Spirit • Clan Smoke Jaguar • Clan Hell's Horses • Raven Alliance • Fronc Reaches • Rim Worlds Republic • Magistracy of Canopus
Favorite Characters: Malvina Hazen • Kali Liao • Katherine Steiner-Davion • Anastasia Kerensky • Danai Liao-Centrella • Karianna Schmitt • Lady Death • Tara Campbell • Katana Tormark
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #88 on: 24 March 2024, 14:31:53 »
I remember it being a rather frequent topic in Victor Milan's novels.
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Re: Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity
« Reply #89 on: 24 March 2024, 14:55:03 »
Sexualized evil and normalized sexually abusive behavior was a staple of feudal societies which spanned majority of human history and which in-universe have officially become standard default again

Therefore our worry for the future should extend to all BT factions not just Clans

While true, very few in-universe factions are as dogmatic about the idea that "your entire existence is solely a means to support the greater whole" as the Clans.  Well, maybe the Capellans.  Yes, basically all Battletech factions are likely fertile breeding grounds for monstrous sexual exploitation and violence, I'd put it on a spectrum, and the Clans are nearly the worst of the lot (on a Clan-by-Clan basis, Ghost Bear probably isn't too bad), with the Marian Hegemony or Tortuga Dominions taking last place in the "How bad is sexual violence in this faction, sort descending" ranks.

but returning to beachhhead1985's point--the Clans sort for horribly abusive behavior at all levels already.  We know (bona fides: studied psych and education) that physical violence as a punitive tactic, especially against children, causes problems with violence, impulse control, and IIRC even cognitive impairment.  Interpersonal intimacy and trust, sexual or platonic, are necessary for human mental health in almost all circumstances.  The constant competitive and zero-sum environment most Clan warriors live in is a fertile breeding ground for PTSD and anxiety disorders.  Either the Clans don't care that they're making unstable, paranoid, trauma cases, or the universe has been written in such a way where, in at least one way, the Clans are right.  In the Nova Cat general we were discussing the Mystic caste, and my takeaway was that their training would create feral children, trauma responses wrapped in a human form, or absolute sociopaths.  Instead we have traumatized and callous but largely stable individuals who attain almost supernatural analytical abilities from their ordeal.
I think that in general, the psychological ramifications of Clan life are just left unexplored so we can have technologically advanced fascist furries in giant robots stunting on/getting stomped by (depending on the POV of the story) foreign-culture cosplaying feudal empires in less technologically advanced giant robots.  Hence why I like exploring it, it's an open field, but I don't think it'll translate into the fiction anytime soon.

Also, your recommendation of Haldeman's Forever War is aces--there's a Franco-Belgian bande dessinée with script and dialogue by Haldeman himself that's a fantastic adaptation, if anyone prefers a comic book to a novel.  And yes, the late scene where Mandella discovers humans have become a post-gender hive mind and he realizes there's no place for him there, even though it's objectively a better society for humanity is a masterwork in alienation and what one might call absolute culture shock.  Anywho, there's my .002 C-bills.
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