Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race

[Alsadius]

As long as it doesn't smell too much like Camembert - I figured the TC could get away with it, because they spent so much of their early budgets to get so little, but that's a very gamey design in some ways.

[marcussmythe]

As long as it doesn't smell too much like Camembert - I figured the TC could get away with it, because they spent so much of their early budgets to get so little, but that's a very gamey design in some ways.

Not.. actually that gamey.  You have to slooowly rotate (military stations turn 1 facing a round, right?) to switch from Naval Laser to NAC engagement.  Any agile foe can make you loathe that.  And since shes immobile, she runs the risk of a mobile foe drawing out her missile fire at long range, emptying her bays for little return.

And the future advent of bearings only launches is gonna be just brutal for armed stations.  ‘I fire from range 200 at short’.  The station cant really return the favor - its much harder to catch a mobile unit in the basket!

Also-also?  Shell defend Taurus proper pretty good.  Wont protect the rest of Concordiat, and noone is gonna stick their hand into Taurus Close Orbut to get chewed up by those things.

As I see it, her real value is that (once they have an appreciable wall of battle) the Taurians can afford to -use- it - and may as well - because they wont be tied down covering homeworld.  Also, the fact that the Taurians now are (relatively) safe even from major powers... the FedSuns MIGHT be able to break those stations with another few decades production, but they cant afford the losses, and dont win enough.  So the Tairians just bought ‘dont lose the capital’ insurance.  No small thing.

But cheese?  Nah.  Shes just a powerful static defense over the homeworld.  Thats like... one of the oldest tropes in sci-fi.

((Footnote - Im finding most ‘gamey’ things get a lot less gamey once their off the table and in a realistic (for our fictional values of realism) world.  Its all tradeoffs and needs and role-fitting.  One example?  Advanced Fighters.  For years I swore that XL engines should be default, cause compared to the cost of droppers and jumpers, whats a 10 mil difference on a Battlemech?  Now that I look at someday replacing... All... Those... Fighters...  at 15 Mil each... Im more thinking ‘yannow, Standard engines are reliable, stable, easy to maintain, and 10 extra tons warload on a heavy fighter isnt all that much’.  Another example?  Im running lighter cargo than some, and no droppers, which gives me more combat power per C-Bill.  But to help cover that, Ive built resupply depots over every world, and any long-distance strikes or patrols in enemh space will require freighters or jumpships with cargo droppers.  I -think- Ive got the right answer - but I may be wrong, and its still not free.  All trade offs.  Consider Leviathan III - in our game, we’d look at a ship like that and go ‘hit the supply chain, hit the droppers, and never fight the thing - go after the worlds it isnt over’.  And for the cost of Levi III, you can build a -lot- of warships to be in a -lot- of places doing a -lot- more damage than that thing is doing wherever it is...))

[Starfox1701]

True but by the time you can build Leviathan 3s you should already have lots of other ships for those other worlds. Super battleships are your death fleet. They shouldn't negatively impact your available defense forces. If they do you shouldn't build them yet.

My concern on the Marathon is her inability to survive a real siege.  They can be isolated and rendered combat ineffective because they lack cargo. I look at those things and see the German 6th army at Stalingrad. Combat resupply is going to be their Achilles heel.

[marcussmythe]

Eh.  Their deployed around the shipyards, which are themselves deployd in close orbit (i presume) to Taurus.  Id think at the very least the shipyards have sufficient cargo to stand a long siege, and you couldnt interdict the stations, from the yards, without exposing yourself to the fire of those stations.

Beyond that, station cargo is very nearly free.  If simulation shows it to be a problem, just slap zeros on the cargo capacity until the problem goes away.  Or just haul a cloud of shipping containers fill of ice and rations into space and leave them in close orbit by your stations.

[Alsadius]

The cargo capacity for a Marathon is the planet Taurus. Ditto the food supply, the fighter bays, and the ammo load. Heck, even the fuel supply - low orbit requires no fuel to maintain, unlike the station-keeping need at a jump point. At a jump point that station would be a joke, but in low orbit(in a game world where surface-to-orbit travel is cheap and easy) it's a lot scarier than it looks.

The one problem is that capital weapon ranges are still quite short compared to the size of a planet - the longest-ranged weapons can only shoot about a thousand klicks, covering an area of about 3 million km^2 on the surface of a sphere, whereas the surface area of low earth orbit is about 550 million km^2. Even if orbits could be aligned perfectly, you'd need to build close to 200 stations just to cover the whole planet. As such, even with those stations in orbit, they're only really protecting the orbital shipyard complex - the surface is still vulnerable to bombardment. I don't have a good solution to this in canon, except for bombardment being a very rare thing for political reasons.

After all, any drive capable of interplanetary movement in a reasonable period is also capable of producing some supremely terrifying kinetic energy weapons, so any sci-fi setting needs a reason why nobody uses them(or to roll with it, and have planets get smashed on a regular basis). A 5000 ton DropShip accelerating at 1g from Sol's zenith point to Earth without slowing down carries about 1.5x10^20 joules of kinetic energy, or about 36 gigatons. That's about six times the total IRL nuclear arsenal of all nations combined, or about 1/600 of the dinosaur-killer asteroid. An asteroid impact calculator says that it'd blow down wooden buildings at 60+ km distance. And these things are in the hands of tens of thousands of random merchants all over the inner sphere. Who needs nukes?

[marcussmythe]

The cargo capacity for a Marathon is the planet Taurus. Ditto the food supply, the fighter bays, and the ammo load. Heck, even the fuel supply - low orbit requires no fuel to maintain, unlike the station-keeping need at a jump point. At a jump point that station would be a joke, but in low orbit(in a game world where surface-to-orbit travel is cheap and easy) it's a lot scarier than it looks.

The one problem is that capital weapon ranges are still quite short compared to the size of a planet - the longest-ranged weapons can only shoot about a thousand klicks, covering an area of about 3 million km^2 on the surface of a sphere, whereas the surface area of low earth orbit is about 550 million km^2. Even if orbits could be aligned perfectly, you'd need to build close to 200 stations just to cover the whole planet. As such, even with those stations in orbit, they're only really protecting the orbital shipyard complex - the surface is still vulnerable to bombardment. I don't have a good solution to this in canon, except for bombardment being a very rare thing for political reasons.

After all, any drive capable of interplanetary movement in a reasonable period is also capable of producing some supremely terrifying kinetic energy weapons, so any sci-fi setting needs a reason why nobody uses them(or to roll with it, and have planets get smashed on a regular basis). A 5000 ton DropShip accelerating at 1g from Sol's zenith point to Earth without slowing down carries about 1.5x10^20 joules of kinetic energy, or about 36 gigatons. That's about six times the total IRL nuclear arsenal of all nations combined, or about 1/600 of the dinosaur-killer asteroid. An asteroid impact calculator says that it'd blow down wooden buildings at 60+ km distance. And these things are in the hands of tens of thousands of random merchants all over the inner sphere. Who needs nukes?

Please.  Think of the catgirls.  :)

[marcussmythe]

For the record - if I could change three or four things about the setting for this game, it would be to return to the original Aerotech ranges.  Felt much more belivable for a hypertech culture (which this -is-) and less smash-mouth space-opera.

[marcussmythe]

My phone is duplicating my posts, somehow.  Duplicate deletedz

[Starfox1701]

The cargo capacity for a Marathon is the planet Taurus. Ditto the food supply, the fighter bays, and the ammo load. Heck, even the fuel supply - low orbit requires no fuel to maintain, unlike the station-keeping need at a jump point. At a jump point that station would be a joke, but in low orbit(in a game world where surface-to-orbit travel is cheap and easy) it's a lot scarier than it looks.

The one problem is that capital weapon ranges are still quite short compared to the size of a planet - the longest-ranged weapons can only shoot about a thousand klicks, covering an area of about 3 million km^2 on the surface of a sphere, whereas the surface area of low earth orbit is about 550 million km^2. Even if orbits could be aligned perfectly, you'd need to build close to 200 stations just to cover the whole planet. As such, even with those stations in orbit, they're only really protecting the orbital shipyard complex - the surface is still vulnerable to bombardment. I don't have a good solution to this in canon, except for bombardment being a very rare thing for political reasons.

After all, any drive capable of interplanetary movement in a reasonable period is also capable of producing some supremely terrifying kinetic energy weapons, so any sci-fi setting needs a reason why nobody uses them(or to roll with it, and have planets get smashed on a regular basis). A 5000 ton DropShip accelerating at 1g from Sol's zenith point to Earth without slowing down carries about 1.5x10^20 joules of kinetic energy, or about 36 gigatons. That's about six times the total IRL nuclear arsenal of all nations combined, or about 1/600 of the dinosaur-killer asteroid. An asteroid impact calculator says that it'd blow down wooden buildings at 60+ km distance. And these things are in the hands of tens of thousands of random merchants all over the inner sphere. Who needs nukes?

 There really isn't a good one with the ranges of weapons in verse. I think this is why battlestations aren't really common beyond jump point defense.  You either need a thousand stations to cover a planet or your pissing into the wind trying to cover what you can afford too.

[marcussmythe]

Well, in this case hes covering the yards... and whatever section of the planets surface those stations sweep over, depending on orbital path.

Again, the solution is to to back to Aerotech 1 Weapon Ranges.

[Starfox1701]

Even with Aerotech 1 ranges your still going to need at least 100 battlestations to secure an average m class planet

[Kiviar]

Turn 2371-2380

Hey everyone, sorry my turn took a while to get out. This one is going to be another big fat fluff-dump. Also, I totally forgot that the AFFS didn't actually exist before the Davion civil war, and the Princes wont exist for another 50 or so years, so while I won't bother going back and editing my old posts, I'll just start referring to them as correctly as I can manage from here on out.

I hope you guys enjoy my turn.

Ghosts of Highspire

While the government and media spun the battle of Tikonov as a resounding victory for the Federated Suns Navy, the truth was it was a very close affair. Had the Capellans not suffered such a devastating loss before the battle started, it may well have ended up as a repeat of the battle of Highspire. Despite the propaganda, the navy knew this. It had been clear for over a decade that the Capellan fleet outclassed the Suns' in terms of weapon-range, sensors, and fire-control, but, due to the political situation at the time, no effort had been made to rectify this. It was assumed that should the Capellans amass their entire fleet, even the much-vaunted Galahad-class cruisers might not be sufficient to secure victory.

It was then, in the prelude to war with the burgeoning new Confederation, that the Admiralty, fearful of defeat, and, more importantly that the careers of many senior officers would be in jeopardy, chose a relatively young and unknown commander for the peacekeeping fleet. The idea being that if the fleet once again met with disaster, blame could be discreetly pointed away from the Davion family and the New Avalon clique. For this they, chose Captain Michael Hasek, a mostly unknown frigate commander whom the Hasek family had been pressuring the FPF to receive a promotion.

Captain Hasek was however, keenly aware of the real nature of his position. In correspondence to his wife upon receiving his new posting, the newly minted admiral lamented that he was "...being set up by those <expletive deleted> on New Avalon to be the fall guy for their decades of <expletive deleted> and abject incompetence."

However, Admiral Hasek was not about to roll over and accept his fate as the new Admiral Arthur. Upon taking command of the FSS Galahad, he instituted a rigorous new gunnery training program throughout the fleet. In the face of direct orders from command to not engage in live-fire training exorcises, for what they claimed as 'budgetary concerns', Admiral Hasek took advantage of his exceedingly wealthy family on New Syrtis and funded the ordinance expenditures directly from his own pocket. Although no concrete numbers exist, it is estimated that the first month of his command alone cost roughly half a billion pounds.

The program had only lasted a scant four months from Admiral Hasek's assignment, the marshaling of the fleet, and journey to the Tikonov AO, but the results had been staggering. Before he took command, the sailors of the FPF struggled to display basic competency. The fleet which jumped from Sonnia to Tikonov, was quite possibly the most capable space-force in the Inner Sphere.

The battle had been close, but, through Admiral Hasek's careful command, and a good dose of luck the FPF fleet managed to secure an unexpected victory, and ultimately dispel the malaise which had percolated through the Federated Suns Navy ever since that fateful encounter in the Highspire system.

The golden decade

With the victory in Tikonov, a new energy surged through the Navy. Projects which had been unthinkable mere months before the battle were being greenlit, and planners who lamented their inability to effect desperately needed change one night found themselves sitting on top of multi-billion pound budgets the next morning. The Navy had want for nothing, and the newly appointed President Etien Davion was to thank for it.

In the first month of his presidency two new ship programs and a massive new space-fortification plan were announced. The Crucis-class Battleship, the Robinson-class Cruiser and Northumberland and Barghest stations were designed to fill the massive gaps in the FPF's capability. This also came with the promise for substantial new investments in naval infrastructure, training, and funding. However, as the President's mental health began to decline half-way through his first year in office, and he withdrew from most decision making, much of what he had originally promised was discreetly paired back by the High Council over the next few years.

For whatever reason however, funding for new projects, specifically ones which directly benefited the security, and more importantly the profits of both the Universal Shipyards and Boeing Interstellar, were pushed through with no resistance by the Admiralty or High council. But, despite this, the next few years were a high-point for the FPF navy. Morale was high, new ships with proper sensors were coming out of Federated Suns shipyards every year, and strong new defences were being built all across the realm.

Addendum

For his service in the battle of Tikonov, admiral Michael Hasek was awarded a Presidential Citation for Valor.

It is also sad to note that Avalon City Police detective Andrew McMurray, was found dead early in 2371. While the official report concluded that he had committed suicide due to ever increasing online harassment for his handling of the Arthur case, few believe this.

New Units

Northumberland Battlestation

Unfortunately the war with the newly-formed Confederation had not been entirely without loss. The Capellan raids in Muskegon and Carmacks, and more importantly their assault on the Free Worlds League shipyard at Irian had displayed another glaring flaw in Federated Suns strategy. The Federation recharge station proved less effective as hoped at repulsing a dedicated raider, and the Capellans showed exactly how vulnerable an undefended shipyard was to even an wounded enemy.

To hopefully rectify this problem, a plan to produce a series of much heavier armed defensive stations was proposed.

The first station, the Northumberland, was designed to be a veritable space-fortress. Its armament primarily consisted of a staggering array of 120 killer-whale and 60 barracuda class capital missile launchers, which was backed up by a respectable allotment of NL55 lasers. A series of light autocannons and point-defence machine guns as well as a reinforced aerospace regiment rounded out its offensive capabilities.

While the station was not intended to stand toe-to-toe with most contemporary warships, it was designed to make approaching its defensive charge a risky proposition.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Northumberland-station
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $994,940,000.00
Magazine Cost: $29,405,000.00
BV2: 62,341

Mass: 240,000
K-F Drive System: None
Power Plant: Station-Keeping Drive
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
56 Naval Laser 55
120 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
60 Capital Launcher Barracuda
40 Machine Gun (IS)
40 AC 5

Class/Model/Name: Northumberland-station
Mass: 240,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 2,880
Thrust
Safe: 0
Maximum: 0
Controls: 240
K-F Hyperdrive: None (0 Integrity) 0
Jump Sail: (0 Integrity) 0
Structural Integrity: 1 2,400
Total Heat Sinks: 8120 Single 8,000
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 9000 points 1,836
Fire Control Computers: 9,981
Armor: 516 pts Standard 860
Fore: 96
Fore-Left/Right: 90/90
Aft-Left/Right: 80/80
Aft: 80

Dropship Capacity: 0 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 82 574
Life Boats: 0

Crew And Passengers:
59 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 413
34 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 238
257 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 1,799
204 Bay Personnel 0
1st Class Passengers 0
2nd Class Passengers 0
Steerage Passengers 0

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
20 Naval Laser 55 Nose 1700 1100 (110-C) Extreme-C 22,000
20 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Nose 400 800 (80-C) Extreme-C 3,000
15 Capital Launcher Barracuda Nose 150 300 (30-C) Extreme-C 1,350
8 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
10 Naval Laser 55 FR 850 550 (55-C) Extreme-C 11,000
25 Capital Launcher Killer Whale FR 500 1000 (100-C) Extreme-C 3,750
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
8 AC 5 FR 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
10 Naval Laser 55 FL 850 550 (55-C) Extreme-C 11,000
25 Capital Launcher Killer Whale FL 500 1000 (100-C) Extreme-C 3,750
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
8 AC 5 FL 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Naval Laser 55 AR 680 440 (44-C) Extreme-C 8,800
20 Capital Launcher Killer Whale AR 400 800 (80-C) Extreme-C 3,000
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
8 AC 5 AR 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Naval Laser 55 AL 680 440 (44-C) Extreme-C 8,800
20 Capital Launcher Killer Whale AL 400 800 (80-C) Extreme-C 3,000
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
8 AC 5 AL 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
10 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Aft 200 400 (40-C) Extreme-C 1,500
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda Aft 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450
8 AC 5 Aft 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4

Ammo Rounds Mass
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 1200 60,000.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 600 18,000.00
AC 5 Ammo 2600 130.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 4000 20.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
NCSS Small 100 2
72 Bay Fighter 10,800 8
12 Bay Small Craft 2,400 2
33,800 Cargo, Standard 33,800


Barghest Defence Station

While diminutive, and more importantly inexpensive, the 20kt station was still armed with an impressive array of weapons for its size. Intended to be deployed in swarms, slaved to the much more accurate fire control systems on the Northumberland, The Barghest would create a much larger defensive zone than the Northumberland was capable alone.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Barghest-station
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $72,705,000.00
Magazine Cost: $1,424,000.00
BV2: 7,084

Mass: 20,000
K-F Drive System: None
Power Plant: Station-Keeping Drive
Safe Thrust:
Maximum Thrust: 0
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
48 Machine Gun (IS)
6 Naval Laser 55
10 Capital Launcher White Shark

Class/Model/Name: Barghest-station
Mass: 20,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 240
Thrust
Safe:
Maximum: 0
Controls: 20
K-F Hyperdrive: None (0 Integrity) 0
Jump Sail: (0 Integrity) 0
Structural Integrity: 1 200
Total Heat Sinks: 660 Single 594
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 1,020
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 101 pts Standard 126
Fore: 25
Fore-Left/Right: 20/20
Aft-Left/Right: 13/13
Aft: 10

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 11 77
Life Boats: 0

Crew And Passengers:
13 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 91
36 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 252
24 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 168
0 Bay Personnel 0
1st Class Passengers 0
2nd Class Passengers 0
Steerage Passengers 0

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
6 Naval Laser 55 Nose 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
5 Capital Launcher White Shark FR 75 150 (15-C) Extreme-C 600
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
5 Capital Launcher White Shark FL 75 150 (15-C) Extreme-C 600
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4

Ammo Rounds Mass
Capital Launcher White Shark Ammo 100 4,000.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 4800 24.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
5,363 Cargo, Standard 5,363 2


Robinson-class Light Cruiser

The first of the post-Tikonov designs the Robinson-class Cruiser was the solution to two of the FPF Navy's most troubling issues. First and foremost, the Robinson was equipped with a state of the art naval comm-scanner suite, allowing it to see accurately up to three times further than either the Albion or Galahad-class. Secondly, its primarily missile-based armament greatly extended the range at which the fleet could engage. Ideally working alongside the FPF Navy's other fast warships, the Robinson could batter or even cripple a hostile ship before the squadron closed in for the kill with their much heavier, but shorter-ranged autocannons.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Robinson-class Light Cruiser
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $7,966,182,000.00
Magazine Cost: $19,786,000.00
BV2: 73,816

Mass: 500,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
9 Naval AC 20
38 Capital Launcher White Shark
47 Machine Gun (IS)
39 Capital Launcher Barracuda
27 AC 5

Class/Model/Name: Robinson-class Light Cruiser
Mass: 500,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 120,000
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 1,250
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (12 Integrity) 226,250
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 55
Structural Integrity: 120 60,000
Total Heat Sinks: 1334 Single 800
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 552 pts Standard 1,200
Fore: 120
Fore-Left/Right: 100/100
Aft-Left/Right: 80/80
Aft: 72

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 1 100
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 46 322
Life Boats: 0

Crew And Passengers:
44 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 308
101 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 707
111 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 777
39 Bay Personnel 0
5 1st Class Passengers 50
20 2nd Class Passengers 140
Steerage Passengers 0

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
9 Naval AC 20 Nose 540 1800 (180-C) Long-C 22,500
8 Capital Launcher White Shark Nose 120 240 (24-C) Extreme-C 960
3 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 6 (0.6-C) Short-PDS 2
4 Capital Launcher White Shark FL 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 480
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540
4 AC 5 FL 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
6 Machine Gun (IS) FL 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Capital Launcher White Shark FR 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 480
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540
4 AC 5 FR 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
6 Machine Gun (IS) FR 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Capital Launcher White Shark RBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 480
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda RBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540
4 AC 5 RBS 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
6 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Capital Launcher White Shark LBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 480
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda LBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540
4 AC 5 LBS 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
6 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Capital Launcher White Shark AR 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 480
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540
4 AC 5 AR 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
6 Machine Gun (IS) AR 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Capital Launcher White Shark AL 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 480
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540
4 AC 5 AL 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
6 Machine Gun (IS) AL 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
6 Capital Launcher White Shark Aft 90 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 720
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda Aft 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270
3 AC 5 Aft 3 15 (1.5-C) Medium 24
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4

Ammo Rounds Mass
Capital Launcher White Shark Ammo 380 15,200.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 720 21,600.00
Naval AC 20 Ammo 340 136.00
AC 5 Ammo 2160 108.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 12000 60.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
NCSS Large 500 2
12 Bay Fighter 1,800 8
3 Bay Small Craft 600 2
11,000 Cargo, Standard 11,000

Crucis-class Battleship

This is the strength of our alliance made manifest. This is our guarantee to our children and our grandchildren, that when they look up at the night sky, they will know those stars hold no fear.

- President Etien Davion 2371

In the face of an increasingly dangerous Inner Sphere, and neighbors building more, and larger warships, as well as lessons learned in the battle of Tikonov, it was decided that the Navy's Galahad-class cruisers were no longer sufficient to form the backbone of FPF fleets. To fill this new role, the Bureau of Ships proposed the Crucis, a 1000kt battleship with over 20% more protection and firepower than the Galahad.

Much like previous Federated Suns designs the Crucis' armament also comes primarily from a sizable array of naval auttocannons. 31 class 20 and 16 class 35 cannons provide the Crucis with a weight of fire which few, if any, other warships can weather. While 3000 tonnes of armour provide it with unparalleled protection. To supplement its close-rage firepower 10 Killer Whale tubes allow the ship a moderate standoff capacity, while 24 Barracuda launchers and a reinforced aerospace squadron allow the Crucis to defend against a considerable amount of smaller craft and dropships.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Crucis-class Battleship
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $11,663,262,000.00
Magazine Cost: $105,667,000.00
BV2: 136,842

Mass: 1,000,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
31 Naval AC 20
10 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
43 Machine Gun (IS)
24 Capital Launcher Barracuda
29 AC 5
16 Naval AC 35

Class/Model/Name: Crucis-class Battleship
Mass: 1,000,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 180,000
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 2,500
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (21 Integrity) 452,500
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 80
Structural Integrity: 150 150,000
Total Heat Sinks: 3645 Single 3,000
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 1290 pts Standard 3,000
Fore: 250
Fore-Left/Right: 230/230
Aft-Left/Right: 200/200
Aft: 180

Dropship Capacity: 3 3,000
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 2 200
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 60 420
Life Boats: 0

Crew And Passengers:
59 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 590
186 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 1,302
105 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 735
132 Bay Personnel 0
10 1st Class Passengers 100
25 2nd Class Passengers 175
Steerage Passengers 0

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
12 Naval AC 20 Nose 720 2400 (240-C) Long-C 30,000
4 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Nose 80 160 (16-C) Extreme-C 600
4 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2
4 Naval AC 20 FR 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
6 AC 5 FR 6 30 (3-C) Medium 48
6 Machine Gun (IS) FR 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Naval AC 20 FL 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
6 AC 5 FL 6 30 (3-C) Medium 48
6 Machine Gun (IS) FL 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
8 Naval AC 35 RBS 960 2800 (280-C) Medium-C 32,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda RBS 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
5 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 10 (1-C) Short-PDS 3
8 Naval AC 35 LBS 960 2800 (280-C) Medium-C 32,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda LBS 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
5 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 10 (1-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Naval AC 20 AR 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
6 AC 5 AR 6 30 (3-C) Medium 48
6 Machine Gun (IS) AR 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
4 Naval AC 20 AL 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
6 AC 5 AL 6 30 (3-C) Medium 48
6 Machine Gun (IS) AL 12 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 3
3 Naval AC 20 Aft 180 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,500
6 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Aft 120 240 (24-C) Extreme-C 900
5 AC 5 Aft 5 25 (2.5-C) Medium 40
5 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 10 (1-C) Short-PDS 3

Ammo Rounds Mass
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 480 14,400.00
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 240 12,000.00
Naval AC 35 Ammo 800 800.00
Naval AC 20 Ammo 520 208.00
AC 5 Ammo 2320 116.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 5000 25.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
1 NCSS Large 500 2
36 Bay Fighter 5,400 8
12 Bay Small Craft 2,400 2
17,000 Cargo, Standard 17,000


Turn

Administration
Budget - 105
Upkeep - 10.1

R&D
Northumberland Station - 0.994
Barghest Station - 0.072
Robinson-class - 7.996
Crucis-class - 11.661

Construction

Ships
2x Crucis - 23.323
2x Robinson - 15.932
2x Albion - 14.177

Stations
4x Northumberland-station - 3.979
20x Barghest-station - 1.454
10x Federated-Recharge Station - 2.873

Misc
10x Lt Dropship - 3
50x Sm Craft - 0.5
1300x Fighter - 6.5

Research & Other
Research - 464 - 0.464
Fleet repairs - 2

[Alsadius]

If I'm not mistaken, we have turns submitted from every player except Truetanker at this point. I can write most of the combats now, though of course I'll finish the NPCs first. It'll be a couple days at minimum before I can finish the turn, but TT, if you can manage to have your turn in by Wednesday or so, it'd be appreciated.

---

The Terran Hegemony is, like most over-sized space monsters, not known for its quick reflexes. Terran news agencies covered the battles in outlying regions, of course, and Terran naval observers gleaned what information they could from them. But the Hegemony's naval budget is determined in the halls of power on Terra, and Terrans are not, as a rule, seriously worried about the military technology being used by the semi-barbarian outlying kingdoms. However, the recent up-tick in galactic violence has led to a few notable changes in Terran doctrine.

Director-General Margaret Cameron had expressed public concern at the realm's military preparedness since her ascension in 2367, passing a major expansion of the Terran military reserve within less than three months of her father's resignation. However, the rapid adoption of the new Terran fighter armour by outlying nations led to concern that Terran research was serving primarily to arm the enemies of the realm. In 2372, she created the "Official List of Sensitive and Secret Technologies", which rapidly became known as the "Mother Doctrine". Reaction from industrial concerns was generally unhappy, as they lost major potential markets for export hardware, but after one major firm who tried to bypass the so-called "Cameron Blacklist" was disbanded and its directors imprisoned for treason, the rest rapidly fell into line. (OOC note: This does not affect the in-game rate of technological spread.)

The rule of Margaret Cameron also led to a major codification of Hegemony naval doctrine. Whereas previously its fleet had been sufficient to overawe any potential competitors with no major difficulties, the total combat power of the outlying realms was increasing at a surprisingly fast rate, and a consolidation of doctrines was in order. As a result, the following deployment patterns will be used by the Hegemony:

1) Light ships massing less than 250,000 tons cannot stand in the wall of battle against serious opponents, so instead they should be equipped to act as the eyes of the fleet. The 36 Vigilant-class frigates will be used as picket ships, anti-piracy units, or fast couriers, while the 36 Bonaventure-class scout ships and their advanced sensor systems will be used in combination with heavier fleet units as dedicated scouts.

2) Slow ships, which cannot maintain a sustained acceleration in excess of 1g, will be used as the "hammer" of the fleet. These are not intended for open-space battles of maneuver, they are instead designed to advance on enemy strongholds and reduce them to rubble, or alternately to act as strong bulwarks that can be used for system defence or a portable "safe harbour" for faster units. The 12 Monsoons, 34 Quixotes, 14 Darts, and the 6 new Aegises will be consolidated into three fleets, operating out of Terra, Terra Firma, and Thorin, each of which is intended to be able to destroy the entire combined navy of any other nation.

3) Faster ships which can maintain sustained acceleration of above 1g are designed to destroy enemy units in deep space. The 7 Dreadnoughts, 22 Black Lions, and 16 Essexes will primarily operate with each other as "hunter" fleets to track down targets on the move, particularly when engaged in combat with enemy navies whose sustained acceleration does not exceed their own 1.5g. The 28 Cruisers and 20 Lolas can accelerate at a full 2g for long periods, but they lack the weaponry and facilities for sustained expeditions on their own, so they will generally be used as a fast wing in the context of a larger and better-equipped fleet.

4) Terran WarShips lack for the advanced anti-fighter defenses of other navies, preferring instead to keep fighters at long distances through use of layered defenses from supporting fighters and DropShips. Supporting craft will contain the bulk of the fleet's light weaponry, both anti-fighter and anti-missile, though occasional designs like the Black Lion will carry significant anti-fighter defenses. Use of carrier-fit DropShips is common, with somewhat over half the DropShips in the fleet being fit as carrier models. Heavy weapons are never used by Terran DropShips, as the guns of the fleet are intended to fill that role instead, and cargo DropShips are used in relatively small quantities, primarily to ferry cargo from the fleet's cavernous holds to surface forces or other ships as needed.

BUDGET: $760B
Maintenance (@100%): $142.165B

Shipyard upgrades(Keid 33, Thorin 21, Terra Firma 21): $60B

Aegis R&D: $10.688B

4x Black Lion: $28.172B
12x Bonaventure: $60.432B
6x Cruiser: $45.138B
4x Lola: $26.528B
4x Vigilant: $16.188B
12x Quixote: $141.192B
4x Essex: $23.932B
6x Monsoon: $87.336B
6x Aegis: $64.128B

130x DropShip: $39B
160x small craft: $1.6B
1080x fighter: $5.4B

Research: $8.101B

[marcussmythe]

Well, youve done the Terrans.  Hard parts over.  :)

[truetanker]

Well now... I got accused of not having enough jump capable ships to mount an invasion. Let's see if I can modify this so it doesn't happen again, shall we?

Ending Turn 2 Budget: $7 Billion and 729 Million
Gains :  $12B, due to conquest and loot, Lothian League

Starting Turn 3 Budget: 19 Billion and 729 Million

Now to our story arc:

Marian Action News Network ( MANN )
Nova Roma, Alphard
Palace of Imperator Pi

A camera passes over the assembled crowd in the Palace's Court, mostly focusing on the Imperator, but currently following a court messenger walking purposely toward the raised sovereignty seat. Imperator Pi, reaching out, begins to read the notepad, narrowing his expressions and with a great shout, he throws it down in anger. Silence was instance as the Centurion Guards snapped to attention weapons at ready. In anger, the Lord of the Hegemony storms out of the chambers while pandemonium ensues.

What follows was a very swift execution of commands from the Imperator, first he mandated the stripping of the Legiones Marianes General of his rank and name, regulating him to the permanent rank of Miles, then threw him into the Cohors Morituri, a new penal cohort. When asked, he'll just say " Oderint dum metuant. or Let them hate so long as they fear. " He then mandated a new variant of what others were calling " Warquillas " or navalized Aquilla.

The Impetum Onerariam was born, meaning Assault Transport in ancient Latin, the main language of the Hegemony. She was built on the same frame as the Scapha and her sisters. The first one was called Vi Unitatis Thru or Strength thru unity. Massing the same weight as her sister ships, she was built with two drop collars and carried more Legiones Marianes than before. She lost her naval bite, but gained more cargospace and heavier supplies than before. Time will tell if she was built correctly or not.

Code: [Select]

Scapha II (Militarized Aquila Transport) has been retcon'd
Given that she also carries a Grav Deck, for the comfort of the local Prefect and their staff. Able to load and transport a full Legio or Legion, the Scapha II took on board enough stores to either commence an invasion and support it, or as a disaster relief ship. Given that the Lothian League was just invaded and the fact a Legiones Marianes General was responsible for the devastation of Lothario, the Imperator has sent the Vi Unitatis Thru on a mercy mission along with a single Jumpship to act as a waystation and goodwill ship.

A Scapha I was recently built to help patrol the Lothian League against any incursions from the mighty Free World League. Named Pride of Lothario, to attempt at appeasing the recently invaded. With a full Century of Lorthian Auxilia, a conscripted unit of Miles and Miles Probatus, lead by a Lothario-born Centurion . The unit is attached to the Ship in a goodwill faith, in hopes that their performance will encourage others to join the Hegemony.


Ending Budget Turn 3:
Prototype: Scapha II   : 4.593 B
Kit : 50 Aerofighters   : 300 M
Kit : 40 Small Craft     : 400 M
Kit : 3 Dropship, Light : 900 M
Buy : Jumpship           : 500 M
Build : Scapha I, ( Pride of Lothario) : 2.066 B

Total cost : 6 Billion and 493 Million
Donations : 2 Billion for Lease of Trojans ( DCA )
Donations : 500 Million for Periphery Aid Package, helping the homeless in the Lothian League.
Recruitment Drive : 100 Million

End Budget turn 3: 12 Billion and 870 Million

TT

Forgot to subtract 500 M for maintenance fees.
Forgot again, thanks Smegish.
* RECIEVED Donations: 5 Billion for Periphery Aid Package, helping unemployment rates in the Marian Hegemony.

[Alsadius]

Thanks for the update. What's the $5B "Periphery aid package"?

---

The Rim Worlds Republic had hoped to avoid the wars of the inner worlds and focus on their own economic development, but the galaxy was getting too dangerous for that. In particular, the growing fighter arms race was finding its greatest expression in the Lyran Commonwealth Navy. The Lyrans were disorganized, but they were also wealthy and expanding, and their navy seemed to be as competent as any navy that had never seen battle could plausibly be. So, with reluctance, Apollo decided to shelve their plans for an expanded Renaissance system, and focus on the construction of a true navy instead.

As the RWR only borders one major nation, their design is designed more than any other role to fight the fleet of that nation. The Lyran fleet is somewhat slow and extremely fighter-heavy, so a ship that can stay at long range and deal with giant swarms of fighters was the natural choice for a defensive unit. Large numbers of point defence weapons were installed, and the capital-scale weapons were chosen for their ability to attack small targets like fighters as well as capital ships. Instead of contesting an enemy's fighters with its own, the ship simply assumes that its fighters will be lost, and decides not to equip any. A token force of two shuttles is retained for crew and cargo movements, and cargo storage is stripped to low levels as well. The resulting Vittoria-class destroyer is somewhat under-gunned for its size, and not well-suited to the possibility of fighting any nation but the Lyrans. However, it is believed that it can be slotted into an escort role once the fleet expands, and for the time being it provides the best chance of fighting a Lyran detachment with some hope of success.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Vittoria
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $6,287,100,004.00
Magazine Cost: $4,900,000.00
BV2: 57,218

Mass: 480,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
40 Capital Launcher Barracuda
40 Naval Laser 55
160 Machine Gun (IS)
80 AC 5

Class/Model/Name: Vittoria
Mass: 480,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 115,200
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 1,200
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (11 Integrity) 217,200
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 54
Structural Integrity: 120 57,600
Total Heat Sinks: 2180 Single 1,655
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 7500 points 3,060
Fire Control Computers: 9,664
Armor: 533 pts Standard 1,152
Fore: 100
Fore-Left/Right: 80/80
Aft-Left/Right: 80/80
Aft: 113

Dropship Capacity: 0 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 24 168
Life Boats: 24 168

Crew And Passengers:
46 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 460
95 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 665
132 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 924
10 Bay Personnel in 2nd Class Quarters 70

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 100 200 (20-C) Extreme-C 900
10 Naval Laser 55 Nose 850 550 (55-C) Extreme-C 11,000
10 Naval Laser 55 RBS 850 550 (55-C) Extreme-C 11,000
10 Naval Laser 55 LBS 850 550 (55-C) Extreme-C 11,000
10 Naval Laser 55 Aft 850 550 (55-C) Extreme-C 11,000
20 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
20 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
20 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
20 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
20 Machine Gun (IS) FR 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
20 Machine Gun (IS) FL 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
20 Machine Gun (IS) AR 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
20 Machine Gun (IS) AL 40 (4-C) Short-PDS 10
10 AC 5 Nose 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80
10 AC 5 RBS 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80
10 AC 5 LBS 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80
10 AC 5 Aft 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80
10 AC 5 FR 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80
10 AC 5 FL 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80
10 AC 5 AR 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80
10 AC 5 AL 10 50 (5-C) Medium 80

Ammo Rounds Mass
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 400 12,000.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 16000 80.00
AC 5 Ammo 7200 360.00

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
9,000 Cargo, Standard 9,000 2
2 Bay Small Craft 400 2
NCSS Large 500
BUDGET: $23B
Maintenance(@100%): $3.623B
Vittoria R&D: $6.287B
2x Vittoria: $12.574B
4x small craft: $40m
Research: $476m

---


That should be all nations. I'll get to work on combat next.

[Kiviar]

The resulting Vittoria-class destroyer is somewhat under-gunned for its size,

Is it though? The only ship in its weight-class it doesn't stand a pretty decent chance against is the Minekaze. It outguns the Qinru Zhe and Albion, which are the only two ships that could realistically bring it to a fight it didn't want. The Robinson is almost a mirror-match, and the Fubuki isn't armoured enough to be assured a win at extreme range, and not fast enough to force a close range fight.

[Smegish]

It lacks big hole punching guns, but we don't have enough armour to need big hole punching guns so that doesn't really matter. Kinda depends on how those lasers are set up bay-wise.

The $5 Billion 'Aid Package' was intended to help him build a 2nd yard in Alphard so he could build his own ships without having to make use of mine. What he actually does with it I care not, but he owes me another $5 Bil over the next 5 turns

[Alsadius]

Is it though? The only ship in its weight-class it doesn't stand a pretty decent chance against is the Minekaze. It outguns the Qinru Zhe and Albion, which are the only two ships that could realistically bring it to a fight it didn't want. The Robinson is almost a mirror-match, and the Fubuki isn't armoured enough to be assured a win at extreme range, and not fast enough to force a close range fight.

Let's compare size-2 ships, sorted by speed:

3/5:
Fubuki (DC): 629 throw weight, 317 armour, 2/12/36 small craft
Minekaze (DC): 730 throw weight, 506 armour, 0/12/36 small craft
Wife's Wrath (CC): 586 throw weight, 604 armour, 0/12/64 small craft

4/6:
Cruiser (TH): 546 throw weight, 348 armor, 2/6/0 small craft
Quzhujian (CC): 424 throw weight, 552 armor, 0/6/48 small craft
Vittoria (RWR): 300 throw weight, 533 armor, 0/2/0 small craft
Robinson (FS): 372 throw weight, 552 armor, 2/3/12 small craft

5/8:
Albion (FS): 200 throw weight, 570 armor, 2/0/6 small craft
Qinru Zhe (CC): 208 throw weight, 356 armour, 2/2/0 small craft

It has a range advantage over most prospective opponents, and it's fast enough to avoid overhaul by any ship that out-guns it. But damage potential is extremely low for its size and speed, and it has by far the worst fleet of parasite craft. I'm not saying it's a bad design, but it is one with a low DPS by most plausible standards.

It lacks big hole punching guns, but we don't have enough armour to need big hole punching guns so that doesn't really matter. Kinda depends on how those lasers are set up bay-wise.

The $5 Billion 'Aid Package' was intended to help him build a 2nd yard in Alphard so he could build his own ships without having to make use of mine. What he actually does with it I care not, but he owes me another $5 Bil over the next 5 turns

Hole-punching is less relevant when there's only 3 facings you can possibly hit at any given time. Using AC/20s against tanks is similarly less useful. As for bays, I was thinking they're doubles - a double NL/55 is a solid anti-fighter mount (especially in the pre-bracketing era), and they're more concerned with fighters than capital ships. After all, when is the RWR ever going to need to take on the navy of the Terran Hegemony?

As for the loan, fair enough - I thought that was last turn, but I guess I got mixed up.

[marcussmythe]

I believe by ‘hole punching’ he refers here to the thresholding rules/bay sizes vs armor thickness/etc.

[Smegish]

I was referring to thresholding rules, or just straight out punching clean through a ships armour.

I also hadn't really looked at exactly how much damage my two DD's pump out compared to ships of similar size... seems I went in a Clan ASF direction... shedloads of guns but a bit light on armour

[marcussmythe]

Well, the second of your two DDs is pretty well armored.  I find it amusing that she and Wrath are within a hair of each other.

The other thing to remember is that in this style, range doesnt show.  Rememeber that NACs are going go have about twice the throw weight per ton of the other naval weapons - so NAC heavy designs are going to look madly overgunned.

That RWR vessel may have a relatively light broadside - but not only does it reach farther, its going to put out far more damage than the same mass of NACs until the NACs get into medium range, due to acciracy advantages.

[Alsadius]

The scary thing is, at this tech level a double NL/55 is actually capable of thresholding a lot of ships. 110 armor on a facing is a heck of a lot, especially in that weight class. That will change once new armor techs come out, of course.

[marcussmythe]

The scary thing is, at this tech level a double NL/55 is actually capable of thresholding a lot of ships. 110 armor on a facing is a heck of a lot, especially in that weight class. That will change once new armor techs come out, of course.

Upgrades in armor tech, and the resultant increases in armor, are going to have a lot of knock-on effects. 

I think, and this goes against my initial mental analysis, it would be good for longer range ships.  The NAC 30/40 force take less damage closing the range, but is also less likely to ‘seal the deal’ in the first close range pass - and if it doesnt, it has to spend more time out at long range turning back around and closing the range again.

Harder for missiles/fighter delivered missiles to get hard kills - but longer lifespans in combat means the massive critical chances inherit in a large missile volley become more important.  Probably a wash?

Still thinking back and forth on if, and if, how, that influences my armament mix choice.

[truetanker]

What's the $5B "Periphery aid package"?

Call it a late year donation to help my realm out in a closed-ended unsecured seeded loan.*

In other words, I'm collecting financial aid for another Class I yard, if I have the credits to make my current one a Class II, I'll do that instead. But that all depends if I get those Lothians in line or not. I hope to get my realm expanded before the inevitable happens.

* Eyeing towards the every expanding purple blob. Don't eat ME you purple bird you! Shakes pugilistic fist at it. *

TT



* Closed-ended loans are one-time loans that cannot be borrowed again once they’ve been repaid, while an opened-ended one would allow unlimited usage, as long as it's paid on time.

Unsecured loans don’t require an asset for collateral and rely solely on your credit history and your income to qualify you for the loan. *

Errata: I need to state that all the Scapha I's  carries on board a 112 Trooper capacity. Meaning that a Decem of Contubernii, or 10 Squads of 10 Troopers are there for support on the ground. Another Contubernium, or Squad of 10 is a Medical unit. And while the last 2 " Troopers " can be anything, I leave them as Ground Surgeons, or Medici Terram. Unlike a ships doctor, these are actual surgeons on the ground.

[marcussmythe]

Let's compare size-2 ships, sorted by speed:

3/5:
Fubuki (DC): 629 throw weight, 317 armour, 2/12/36 small craft
Minekaze (DC): 730 throw weight, 506 armour, 0/12/36 small craft
Wife's Wrath (CC): 586 throw weight, 604 armour, 0/12/64 small craft

4/6:
Cruiser (TH): 546 throw weight, 348 armor, 2/6/0 small craft
Quzhujian (CC): 424 throw weight, 552 armor, 0/6/48 small craft
Vittoria (RWR): 300 throw weight, 533 armor, 0/2/0 small craft
Robinson (FS): 372 throw weight, 552 armor, 2/3/12 small craft

5/8:
Albion (FS): 200 throw weight, 570 armor, 2/0/6 small craft
Qinru Zhe (CC): 208 throw weight, 356 armour, 2/2/0 small craft

That got me thinking, just to see on a chart:

Class I Ships Sorted by Speed:

2/3
Independence (Taurian) 73 Throw Weight, 218 Armor
Beer:  0 Throw Weight, 122 Armor, Transport
Scapha:  40 Throw Weight, 132 Armor, Armed Transport
Scapha II:  0 Throw Weight, 110 Armor, Transport

3/5
Trojan (DC/MH)  96 Throw Weight, 48 Armor, 0/12/12 Q-Ship
Heimdaller (LC) 300 Throw Weight*, 208 Armor, 0/18/20 (*limited ammo)

4/6
Kutai(DC) 124 Throw Weight, 120 Armor, 2/12/36
Heimdaller-II (LC) 80 Throw Weight, 174 Armor 0/20/80

6/9
Phalanx(FWL)  48 Throw Weight, 70 Armor, 0/6/18

Class 2 Ships Sorted by Speed

3/5:
Fubuki (DC): 629 throw weight, 317 armour, 2/12/36 small craft
Minekaze (DC): 730 throw weight, 506 armour, 0/12/36 small craft
Wife's Wrath (CC): 586 throw weight, 604 armour, 0/12/64 small craft

4/6:
Cruiser (TH): 546 throw weight, 348 armor, 2/6/0 small craft
Quzhujian (CC): 424 throw weight, 552 armor, 0/6/48 small craft
Vittoria (RWR): 300 throw weight, 533 armor, 0/2/0 small craft
Robinson (FS): 372 throw weight, 552 armor, 2/3/12 small craft

5/8:
Albion (FS): 200 throw weight, 570 armor, 2/0/6 small craft
Qinru Zhe (CC): 208 throw weight, 356 armour, 2/2/0 small craft

Class 3 Ships Sorted by Speed

2/3
Tyr (LC) 1336 Throw Weight, 590 Armor, 0/6/20
Walkure (LC) 160 Throw Weight, 528 Armor, 0/24/720

3/5
Heracles (FWL) 680 Throw Weight, 594 Armor, 2/12/72
Atago (DC)  858 Throw Weight, 840 Armor, 2/12/72

Class 4 Ships Sorted by Speed

3/5
Crucis (FS) 1268 Damage, 1290 Armor

4/6
Galahad (FS) 988 Damage, 1092 Armor 3/3/12

Thoughts:
1:  Speed is expensive.  Look at Crucis v. Galahad
2:  Cargo is expensive.   Heracles has vast range, but it doesnt show here.  Other designs look really good, because of mass recovered for armor and guns by leaving out cargo.
3:  The combination of the two gets VERY expensive.  If you give Galahad a Heracles mass-fraction in cargo, shes going to lose (guesstimate) about half her guns and armor - leaving her at about a Heracles combat power, and having grown 250Kt to add one point of thrust.
4:  Range and Ammo are expensive.  Heimdaller only punches so hard because she runs out of missiles quickly.  Atago has more mass in weapons than Galahad (I believe) - but they are longer range weapons, which 'look bad' in this comparison - for all the same reasons that an HBK-P looks like it has more firepower than a 3025 AWS-Q.
5.)  Size Matters.  Crucis nearly matches Tyr's firepower, and doubles her defense, while being 1 thrust faster.  Some of this is the long/short range thing, above, and some is cargo differences, but a lot is that extra 125KT tons left over after the KF Drive is paid for.

[Alsadius]

Cargo is expensive for sure. For comparison, the TH Monsoon, which is class 6(!), moves 2/3, has a throw weight of 471, 997 armour, and 6/8/18 small craft. That's weaker overall than an Atago, which is half its size, faster, and carries useful point defence. Basically all of that extra mass and reduced speed/firepower is invested in raising its cargo from the Atago's 20,000 tons to almost 300,000 tons.

[Kiviar]

1:  Speed is expensive

If we were playing TT matches, the Atago could beat every hegemony ship in to dust (which tbh is not much to brag about), and stands a good chance of coming out the winner against every one of our ships except one, which is 250kt heavier than it.

But, since we are doing more narrative-driven battles, speed can actually factor in more realistically. Speed should, in theory, give you control of the engagement. It does come at a cost, the Galahad, is heavier and more expensive than the Atago, but roughly similar in combat power at the same range. It can however, decide to peace out if things aren't looking good for it, and in a theoretical engagement between a Galahad and two Robinsons against 2 Atagos and a fubuki, things probably aren't going to be looking too great for the Dracs unless the dice-gods show them some love.

So far fights like that haven't really happened though. The two main speed-fleets have really only fought each other, and unless things start going very apocryphal, it will remain that way for a while.

[marcussmythe]

Cargo is expensive for sure. For comparison, the TH Monsoon, which is class 6(!), moves 2/3, has a throw weight of 471, 997 armour, and 6/8/18 small craft. That's about on par with an Atago, which is half its size and faster besides. But it has almost 300,000 tons of cargo.

Well, its all fractions, and it starts after a while to feel like the Rocket Equation.

Hypothetical 1 MT Ship:
50% in KF Core
6% per point of thrust.
1% per 10 SI, SI somewhat limited by thrust, Armor limited by SI.
Remainder in 'mission systems' - Guns, Cargo, Figthers, whatever.

So if your carrying no cargo, and a 3/5 drive, youve got 32% of your base mass for some combo of armor and weapons.  Thats about as good as it gets.  If you want some range, you can cut your mission mass to say 27% or 25%, but you see how fast that hurts.

Jack that up to 5/8 and add 10% Cargo?  10% of your base mass remains.  So your 5/8 and with a phenomenal range, but you have a third of the firepower and armor of the slow, short legged ship.

You can cheat cargo some.  Drop Collars don't help much now (small droppers) but large droppers at 50+KT Cargo each will help offset the rocket equation here.. but with costs, and drawbacks. 

Dropping to 2/3 lets Tyr carry pretty decent cargo and a heavy, long-ranged broadside, but well, stuck with 2/3, and also lower speeds limit SI - so shes relatively over-gunned and under-armored compared to a balanced design.

No easy choices, no obvious winners.  I still think that upping speed by 1 point compared to your likely opponents is a winner, in the general condition, cause you can optimize for a range and hope to get it...  but by 2 is a loser, because once you've spent 12% more base mass on thrust, its hard to win at any range against a foe with a balanced weapons fit.

[marcussmythe]

If we were playing TT matches, the Atago could beat every hegemony ship in to dust (which tbh is not much to brag about), and stands a good chance of coming out the winner against every one of our ships except one, which is 250kt heavier than it.

But, since we are doing more narrative-driven battles, speed can actually factor in more realistically. Speed should, in theory, give you control of the engagement. It does come at a cost, the Galahad, is heavier and more expensive than the Atago, but roughly similar in combat power at the same range. It can however, decide to peace out if things aren't looking good for it, and in a theoretical engagement between a Galahad and two Robinsons against 2 Atagos and a fubuki, things probably aren't going to be looking too great for the Dracs unless the dice-gods show them some love.

So far fights like that haven't really happened though. The two main speed-fleets have really only fought each other, and unless things start going very apocryphal, it will remain that way for a while.

All comes down to objective and risk sensitivity.  Are we driving around space, looking to mug inferior opponents that cannot run away or use our speed to avoid superior opponents?  Then speed is good.

Are we here to take a planet/shipyard/etc. or defend same?  Then guns and armor are good.

Also goes to how widely you like to spread your fleet out.  Speed is of real value to independent operators/small groups.  Anything designed to operate alone is 4/6 easy and Id consider 5/8.  Nothing wrong with 5/8, Dropcollars for dropships to feed you, and a pile of NPPCs.  Go visit every enemy world and blow up everything in orbit.

Its value drops rapidly in fleet action - because sooner or later you get a mixed fleet with some slow boats, or a ship gets lamed by enemy fire or just engine problems (Its insane how little time real world warships spent able to sail at full speed, historically), and then the fast fleet isn't - or it leaves its weaker members behind and risks defeat in detail.

So, doctrine, and how you want to use your fleet.  The US went for matching slow speeds.  The British preferred faster, and then built BCs that were yet faster still.