Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 195666 times)

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1380 on: 28 November 2018, 15:47:03 »
I'm not exactly "looking for", more "fearing", as the most obvious way for this to happen is via an attack on periphery powers.  Amongst the easily digestible periphery powers:
  • The MH has the highest value/planet.  The FWL navy could digest the MH navy on a whim and then the army can digesting the few planets easily.
  • The UHC has the second highest value/planet.  With zero strategically mobile forces the Fed Suns could easily pick them off at will. 
  • The RWR is 3rd with ~75 planets on the 2571 map.  It would be troublesome to digest as the Vittoria cannot be caught by anything except the Heimdaller II.  Still, the LC could easily capture the most valuable planets.
  • The TC has the lowest value/planet (>200 planets) which is looking like an asset in these calculations.  The lack of fast elements however means that the TC navy cannot easily maneuver to escape if the FS or CC drop by.

Here I meant looking as in anticpating.  And at the same time, youve got to be hoping the Houses pound each other into dust the same way the Houses pray for a massive civil war in the Terran Hegemony (in wargame terms, at least - obviously in a real universe NONE of our leaders/admirals, if worthwhile human beings, want that).

In order:
The Marian Hegemony is somewhat beyond the borders of the FWL.  The FWL could probably amuse itself conquering minor planets along the way, just as easily.  That said, a dedicated expedition would be feasible, effective, and moderately profitable.

The UHC has a lot of battlestations, and is pretty public about its willingness to go nuclear.  Id leave them alone.  Besides, history says that the Fed Suns gets all that money and space for free in the future, so why worry?  ((For the record,I loved the FedSuns until I played ANY OTHER POWER in the game.  Once your outside that circle of glory looking in from the cold?  Not so much))

The RWR would be a tough bite, but probably the over-all most profitable, in the long run.  Still, LC policy isnt very aggressive, and asking the GM if you can kick over his favourite NPC faction and strip-mine it for budget is probably not a winning plan.

The TC is probably just too bloody big to be worth taking unless it could be done cheaply, and its love affair with cheap battlestations ensures it couldn't be done quickly and cheaply.  So its likley the safest outside the UHC.

Beyond that, they are likely all pretty much safe.  I don't think the GM is interested in KOing players.  Setbacks, yes, but not knock-outs.  Also, the history is not long on permanent knockouts, though they do occur from time to time.


marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1381 on: 28 November 2018, 15:55:22 »
Actually, please do expand it. It's useful for getting a sense of where the ratios are - a disparity of 3:1 is very different from 30:1. Political will is a function of cost, in many cases. Also, the THN is getting even more overwhelming because of its lack of losses, and I want to see if there's any way to cut it down somewhat. I may try to see if a coalition battle can happen in a turn or two.

1.)  Done.
2.)  The THN is getting even more overwhelming despite its losses, not because it has avoided them - its lost more tonnage than the #2 power, the Fed Suns, have BUILT.  And it dented their martial dominance not one whit.

Basically, the THN budget is such that if the Genie of the Lamp granted a wish to Prince Davion eliminating the -entire- THN down to the last fighter on New Years Eve 2510, by 2520 the THN would have the ships to visit New Avalon and discuss the Prince's wishing habits with him.  If the Genie was very thorough and got all the yards as well, it might take 2 turns. 

Edit:  It wouldnt take 2 turns.
Budget 770B. 
50x Class I Yards over Terra:  ~255B. 
100xClass I DDs: ~505B. 
Going from 'No Navy' to 'Best Navy in Space' in a turn with 10B left over to throw a party?  Priceless.
« Last Edit: 28 November 2018, 16:09:41 by marcussmythe »

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1382 on: 28 November 2018, 16:12:36 »
Thanks. I'm surprised that the THN is >10x the total production run of their nearest competitor, given the budget has been ~7x as high. They got a bit of a leg up by starting with a fleet in 2350, but not that much of one. Does that count non-combat ships? And I thought I was spending pretty profligately on their designs, too - the 2x Newgrange build last turn cost more than any other nation's budget, for zero immediate combat power.  Ditto the Potemkins, whose drop collars are basically a fancy way to light budget on fire at this point in the game. Even their yard construction is a massive money sink all told - they're not using a lot of it, and it's still pricey even by their standards.

I wonder how much of this is improved efficiency from large ship sizes? A Newgrange, for all that it's crazy, only costs about as much as a Kutai per ton. I wouldn't think it'd be that big an effect, since their biggest combat ship is only ~30% larger than typical Great House designs of the current day(and most are much smaller), and the designs I've focused most of their recent combat ship construction on(Vincent/Protector) have been small.

I may need them to have a brutal and destructive civil war soon, the sort that drops their budget markedly and for a long time. They're getting a bit wanky at this point - it's kind of fun making my own designs instead of just copying TRO 3057, but there's nothing to test them against.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1383 on: 28 November 2018, 16:35:22 »
Thanks. I'm surprised that the THN is >10x the total production run of their nearest competitor, given the budget has been ~7x as high. They got a bit of a leg up by starting with a fleet in 2350, but not that much of one. Does that count non-combat ships? And I thought I was spending pretty profligately on their designs, too - the 2x Newgrange build last turn cost more than any other nation's budget, for zero immediate combat power.  Ditto the Potemkins, whose drop collars are basically a fancy way to light budget on fire at this point in the game. Even their yard construction is a massive money sink all told - they're not using a lot of it, and it's still pricey even by their standards.

I wonder how much of this is improved efficiency from large ship sizes? A Newgrange, for all that it's crazy, only costs about as much as a Kutai per ton. I wouldn't think it'd be that big an effect, since their biggest combat ship is only ~30% larger than typical Great House designs of the current day(and most are much smaller), and the designs I've focused most of their recent combat ship construction on(Vincent/Protector) have been small.

I may need them to have a brutal and destructive civil war soon, the sort that drops their budget markedly and for a long time. They're getting a bit wanky at this point - it's kind of fun making my own designs instead of just copying TRO 3057, but there's nothing to test them against.

Civil war works.  A nasty internal pop-the-nuke-cork civil war would fit the setting, beat back their yards, fleets, and industrial base, and also serve as a REAL AND SOLID example of why we dont do that.

In the alternate - shifting budget priorities and a focus inward would do it just as easily, if you don't want to write a huge civil war.  History is rife with great powers, militarily and economically situated to claim the role of absolute hegemon, that for cultural, political, or for other reasons set down the baton.

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1384 on: 28 November 2018, 16:52:30 »
The TC is probably just too bloody big to be worth taking unless it could be done cheaply, and its love affair with cheap battlestations ensures it couldn't be done quickly and cheaply.  So its likley the safest outside the UHC.
"Make self hard to swallow" is the baseline strategic plan here  :) 

Judging the TC at 1/3 to 1/4 of a house power seems about right, with perhaps half of that projectable at standard strategic speeds. 

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1385 on: 28 November 2018, 18:43:58 »
Hey, even I set the directive "Defense in Depth".
One of the best defensive strategies against any sane opponent is to make offense too costly for the potential gains to equate to visible profit. No shame in that.
That said, I'm kind of spending on fluff as well.
Btw., is there some tool for actual space battles around? I wonder if we could take the occasional build and throw it against an other to see how they work in the very unlikely case of a small engagement.
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Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1386 on: 29 November 2018, 07:08:18 »
Edit:  It wouldnt take 2 turns.
Budget 770B. 
50x Class I Yards over Terra:  ~255B. 
100xClass I DDs: ~505B. 
Going from 'No Navy' to 'Best Navy in Space' in a turn with 10B left over to throw a party?  Priceless.

I statted up the ship in question, albeit built to player-level quality standards.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Emergency DD
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $4,730,768,004.00
Magazine Cost: $42,032,000.00
BV2: 37,383

Mass: 250,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3.0
Maximum Thrust: 4.5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
64 Machine Gun (IS)
64 LRM 20 (IS)
16 Naval Laser 55
8 Naval AC 25

Class/Model/Name: Emergency DD
Mass: 250,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 45,000
Thrust
Safe: 3.0
Maximum: 4.5
Controls: 625
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (7 Integrity) 113,125
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 43
Structural Integrity: 90 22,500
Total Heat Sinks: 1212 Single 867
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 6250 points 2,550
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 234 pts Standard 450
Fore: 40
Fore-Left/Right: 40/40
Aft-Left/Right: 40/40
Aft: 34

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 20 140
Life Boats: 20 140

Crew And Passengers:
24 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 240
71 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 497
46 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 322
86 Bay Personnel in 2nd Class Quarters 602

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 LRM 20 (IS) Nose 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) Aft 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) FR 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) FL 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) AR 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) AL 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) LBS 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) RBS 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
4 Naval Laser 55 Nose 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 Aft 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 LBS 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 RBS 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
2 Naval AC 25 FR 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
2 Naval AC 25 FL 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
2 Naval AC 25 AR 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
2 Naval AC 25 AL 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000

Ammo Rounds Mass
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 6400 32
LRM 20 (IS) Ammo 4800 800
Naval AC 25 Ammo 400 240

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
15,500 Cargo, Standard 15,500 2
24 Bay Fighter 3,600 6
2 Bay Small Craft 400 1
1 Bay Conventional Infantry (IS), Foot 5 0

$4,871m with the fighters and shuttles included. 288 throw weight, 414 HP, 24 ASF, and it can store 125 tons/fighter of missiles and still meet my 5% cargo mass standard on top of that. (Scheisse.)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1387 on: 29 November 2018, 10:43:05 »
So I wondered, maybe fake-factor in bureaucracy overhead, and give powers with larger budgets progressively larger maintenance fees?

Was supposed to be a way larger post here, alas, I'm short on time.
« Last Edit: 29 November 2018, 13:08:13 by UnLimiTeD »
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truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1388 on: 29 November 2018, 14:59:08 »
Marian Hegemony: 10 Size Class in service
Effective Yard Space:2

The Marian Hegemony can no more threaten the FWL than the FWL can threaten the TH.  However, the periphery power is relatively better off than a great house - inasmuch as a great house crushing a periphery power would weaken itself, and it has dangerous peers.  For all of that, the Hegemony Navy exists primarily in pursuit of local territorial objectives, given its splendid isolation from the inner sphere.

I agree that we're small, but as to FWL ( Stoopid Purple Byrd! Don't eat ME! ), they'll slowly choke if they attempt to look our way!

Code: [Select]
/Class/Model/Name: Emergency DD
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $4,730,768,004.00
Magazine Cost: $42,032,000.00
BV2: 37,383

Mass: 250,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3.0
Maximum Thrust: 4.5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
64 Machine Gun (IS)
64 LRM 20 (IS)
16 Naval Laser 55
8 Naval AC 25

Class/Model/Name: Emergency DD
Mass: 250,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 45,000
Thrust
Safe: 3.0
Maximum: 4.5
Controls: 625
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (7 Integrity) 113,125
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 43
Structural Integrity: 90 22,500
Total Heat Sinks: 1212 Single 867
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 6250 points 2,550
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 234 pts Standard 450
Fore: 40
Fore-Left/Right: 40/40
Aft-Left/Right: 40/40
Aft: 34

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 20 140
Life Boats: 20 140

Crew And Passengers:
24 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 240
71 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 497
46 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 322
86 Bay Personnel in 2nd Class Quarters 602

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 LRM 20 (IS) Nose 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) Aft 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) FR 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) FL 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) AR 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) AL 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) LBS 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
8 LRM 20 (IS) RBS 48 96 (9.6-C) Long 80
4 Naval Laser 55 Nose 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 Aft 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 LBS 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 RBS 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
2 Naval AC 25 FR 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
2 Naval AC 25 FL 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
2 Naval AC 25 AR 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000
2 Naval AC 25 AL 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000

Ammo Rounds Mass
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 6400 32
LRM 20 (IS) Ammo 4800 800
Naval AC 25 Ammo 400 240

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
15,500 Cargo, Standard 15,500 2
24 Bay Fighter 3,600 6
2 Bay Small Craft 400 1
1 Bay Conventional Infantry (IS), Foot 5 0

Gonna steal this as soon as I can!
TT
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Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1389 on: 01 December 2018, 23:41:46 »
I wanted to work out a theory of naval battles, partly to understand what is possible and partly to guide some decision making.  To do this, various approximations need to be made.
  • I'm going to ignore stochastic variability in hit location since warship structure generally forms a good safety and warship often have enough armor so individual hits do not destroy armor.
  • I'm going to ignore discrete arc effects because in continuous space (as opposed to discrete hexes) you can always adjust orientation slightly so they do not occur.  For example, let's assume that a warship that cares can always put an opponent into the fore-side, aft-side, and broad-side arcs simultaneously.
  • I'm ignoring simultaneity of fire.  Obviously, a unit with zero hit points but massive weapons can cause some damage but in most large scale engagements such a unit is destroyed after the first minute as a priority target.
Conversely, I'm going to consider other more continous rules like variable thresholds and individual weapon ranges.  With variable thresholds, ~4 critical hit chances occur before armor is stripped from a location.  Against the side arc, this usually does nothing significant to elements not in the side arc, but against the nose arc CIC, Sensors, or Crew critical hits typically make further weapons fire infeasible once armor is stripped.

Missiles, ASF, and other parasite ships are a special case that I'm not handling here (maybe at a later date).

Given the above, I see 4 primary situations that a unit can be in.  Any individual battle may involve a mixture of these situations, but it's helpful to understand the situations and the strengths of units in these situations.

Execution: One side can attack when another cannot.  An execution is a possibility when one side has a speed advantage, a range advantage, sufficiently good gunnery skill, and room to maneuver.  Examples are of the form Warship+HNPPC vs. Jumpship or Warship+HNPPC vs. slower dropships.  It's important to note that range+speed is necessary but not sufficient for an execution.  For example, if a warship is deployed to protect a yard even a slow opponent can force it into a battle of another type.  The duration of an execution is highly variable dependent on the scope of the range advantage.  For example if the range advantage is only at extreme (+6) and the target evades (+2) while presenting a side aspect (+2) only elite naval gunners (base 2) would be able to hit, and even then only once every half hour factoring in uncertainty due to position (~= initiative) and this could easily double to an hour.  On the other hand, a warship could pass near or through a constellation of jumpships and destroy them all in a minute.  We haven't seen any battles of this sort yet.

Execution designs favor high speed and range above all else and marginally prefer to place weapons in the aft side arcs so they can maneuver and fire through the side arcs while keeping the range.

Low Intensity: A low intensity battle allows warships to take advantage of rolling sides.  A low intensity battle is possible when there is range parity but the faster side maintains sufficient range so incoming damage/minute is low enough to respond with damage-mitigation strategies.  Low intensity battles are either at long or extreme range since incoming damage is by definition occurring at a low rate.  An asymmetry in gunnery skill can make a large difference in a low intensity battle.  Low intensity battles eventually become infeasible as fleet sizes grow since ships can focus fire.  This threshold is high though---essentially the question is: if you divide firepower by a factor of 36 can you outright kill an opposing fleet's ship?  The divisor here may be even more extreme if a side has mixed gunnery skills.

A warship essentially has 3 combat sides: Left, Right, and Nose.  The Left/Right sides include Fore/Aft armor and Fore/Aft/Broad weapons.  The Nose side include Fore-side and Nose armor and weapons arcs, but only one fore-side weapon arc can be used in conjunction with the nose weapon arc against a single target.  In a low intensity battle you always want to use the Left and Right sides before the Nose since Nose critical hits make further targeting impossible.  The side aspect actually biases damage aft so effective use of low intensity typically results in the loss of all armor on the aft sides before rolling to the Nose side where nose armor and the remaining fore side armor is stripped.  After that, the ship is incapable of battle but able to flee further combat if it is the faster ship.  Low intensity designs favor a balance of weapons across side and nose arcs with sufficient speed to control the range and long or extreme range weapons.

High Intensity: High intensity occurs when a combatant is capable of controlling the side presented to the enemy but the enemy can destroy ships through focused fire before damage mitigation measures can be used.  Most warships can control their facing in most situations while space stations and jumpships often cannot.  Side choice is easier to control as the range increases.  The parity point is at range/2=attacker_thrust/defender_thrust so at range 49 thrust 5 suffices to exceed the attitude control of a space station while at range 51 it does not.  Ships can decide to present either the Right, Left, or Nose side as per low intensity combat, but they cannot use unpresented sides---instead they either survive fine or are destroyed outright.  Most of the battles we've seen so far are examples of high intensity combat.

High intensity combat could be done with either a broadside approach or a nose approach.  A nose approach creates concentration of fire and armor but cannot really benefit from structure due to nose critical hits creating a mission kill about when nose armor is removed.  A broadside approach can effectively use structure to substantially improve damage capacity as broadside critical hits are rarely destabilizing.  A broadside approach also imposes a to-hit penalty over a nose approach.

Backstab: An opponent can choose the side to attack against.  This usually occurs with Jumpships and Space Stations although it could occur for a surprised warship in a high speed engagement.  Fleet level tactics can partially mitigate the downside of a backstab.  For example, 3 space stations which only fire in one arc can arrange themselves to effectively return fire in any arc.  Hence, the worst case backstab fire is effectively the average of all facings while the weakest armor facing (typically aft) is presented to the enemy.  Backstab avoidance designs favors uniform fire control and armor and are typically used on slow units.

Measurement: We would like a single number which allow us to estimate the outcome of any of the above forms of combat for a naval unit.

The measurement in an execution situation is based on range and speed with dominance in both being required.  Together with situational tactical concerns this determines feasibility and time requirements.

The measurement in a high intensity situation assumes damage sufficient to strip fore side and aft side + 2*structure is inflicted on the sides resulting in destruction.  Alternatively, damage sufficient to strip the nose armor results in a mission kill as the naval vessel will no longer be able to fire with accuracy.  We use the max(sqrt(E side damage * side capital damage), sqrt(E nose damage * nose capital damage)).  The square root here produces the "right" scaling so that double firepower+double armor = double value.

The measurement in a low intensity situation treats the vessel as (nearly) 3 different vessels, computing sqrt(expected {nose,side} armor * long or more {nose,side} capital damage) and then adding them up.  In practice, we expect damage to hit the structure before rolling sides, but using "no armor left on aft side" as the signal to switch sides leaves a reasonable margin for avoiding accidental early destruction and a reasonable chance that fore-side weapons will remain intact for use in a nose attack.

A backstab situation is similar to high intensity but uses sqrt(average(aft,nose,side) fire * aft armor) since in a fleet situation you can disperse facings to overcome lack of facing control.  Aft critical hits are debilitating through engine and thruster damage which rapidly leave a unit unable to move.

Anyways, I calculated these numbers for units in the local neighborhood of the TC just to see what the result is:
Rapid Ventilation Wind Spirit Wife's Wrath Albion Galahad Robinson Crucis Kentares IV Northumberland Barghest Padfoot Pratham Raksha Nova Taurus I Matador Siesta Marathon
Max Range 525252424242425252525252445252525252
Max Speed 67.54.57.5664.57.50.20.20.20.20.21190.20.2
Low 4114135553175041818511954673672278333195807868175
High 539184325154474188601941733774104124203846726181
Backstab 27413113584256842977413313258810692382822   127
The executioner designs {Wind Spirit, Kentares IV, Matador} have range 52 and speed either 7.5 or 9.

The low intensity designs {Wife's Wrath, Albion, Galahad, Crucis} favor carefully metered out trading of damage.

The high intensity designs (Rapid Ventilation, Robinson, Nova} favor super destructive combat.

The Crucis in particular scores well in both low and high intensity combat although range suffers as a NAC boat.

Obviously there are limitations due to neglecting missiles and parasite ships, but other than that I'm curious if anyone sees serious flaws or gaps?

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1390 on: 02 December 2018, 06:14:50 »
Impressive work!

Concerns:

1.)  I believe the ST would indiciate we are seeing low intensity combat.  5 and even 15 round missile launchers run dry before the fight ends.

2.)  Be careful of mixed armament ships.  IRL the ‘All Big Gun’ battleship was a thing for good reason.  Under your calculus, the ideal armament is a single HNPPC and a large pile of NAC/40 - this preserves high range while presenting large numbers.

3.)  I believe Galahad has a maximum thrust of 6?

4.)  Would be curious to see this expanded to remaining powers.


Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1391 on: 02 December 2018, 08:36:53 »
1.)  I believe the ST would indiciate we are seeing low intensity combat.  5 and even 15 round missile launchers run dry before the fight ends.
ST?  One of the reasons I left off missiles is because they seem inappropriate for execution or low intensity combat.
Edit: ah, storytelling.   Yes, I think we've seen both low and high intensity.
2.)  Be careful of mixed armament ships.  IRL the ‘All Big Gun’ battleship was a thing for good reason.  Under your calculus, the ideal armament is a single HNPPC and a large pile of NAC/40 - this preserves high range while presenting large numbers.
This is like Rapid Ventilation.  It scores well on high intensity combat but not on low intensity because the NAC/40 has only medium range.  The range would help with execution, but you need dominance in speed as well which may or may not exist.
3.)  I believe Galahad has a maximum thrust of 6?
Fixed.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1392 on: 02 December 2018, 10:06:28 »
Impressive, though it's worth noting that you're embedding a lot of tabletop assumptions that don't get implemented in quite the same way here.
1) Side-aspect targeting penalties seem like they're mostly designed to describe crossing motion, not simply sitting there with your broadside hanging out - the broadside aspect is physically larger than the nose aspect, so all else being equal it should be easier to hit. I haven't worked any aspect penalties into my combat math thus far.

2) The range discussion was talking about if it's "only at extreme", which assumes the standard aero range brackets. I'm using advanced aero ranges, because it adds texture to the combat(and allows things like NAC/25s to be used reasonably - given the small number of weapon options, I want them all to have a place). That means that big to-hit differentials can persist to fairly short ranges - to take an extreme case, at 19-20 hexes, a Barracuda is at short range while a NAC/40 is at extreme range.

3) While "aft hits can disable engines" is an obvious "crit table" effect, I've fuzzed out a lot of the others a bit. You can hit the CIC or the ammo magazines from the front or the side, it mostly just depends on how hard you hit and how lucky you are. There's important systems all throughout the hull, and there's no particular aspect that'll be immune from very serious crits.

Regarding combat intensity, this is one where I'm torn between following the BattleTech rules or following plausible battle dynamics. I've gone more for the former, but I try to stretch things out a little bit. Eight rounds is fairly long to produce a clear result if we resolved the battle with tabletop rules, especially with standard armour, but eight minutes to kill the Hood was considered astonishingly short at Denmark Strait. Battles lasting hours or even days, sometimes without decisive results, are more typical in RL. I've mostly gone with "as long as plausible under tabletop rules" as my rule of thumb, but that'll vary depending on rolls and what sort of plot ideas I come up with.

The theory I've come up with is basically that the more agile combatant can generally choose engagement type and range unless they botch things badly. Fighters will basically always get the drop on WarShips, and faster ships will be able to control range against slower ones most of the time(depending on how big the speed/agility differential is, of course). This agility will generally let you choose what range to fight at, and if circumstances are right, what facing to target. Highly agile ships should thus generally choose a range and aspect that suits them best, while less agile ships will often prefer to hedgehog, or sometimes rely on formations to cover their weak spots. Because fighters will always be more agile than any plausible WarShip, and because there's always the chance of being surrounded, WarShips and stations will always want at least some amount of defence in all directions. The amount you'll want will depend on doctrine and details, but the extreme cases here are probably the Caesar and the Ancile/Scutum stations - much more of a single-facing focus than that is hard to envision.

To assist with your efforts to put this into math, I'd say a backstab scenario should measure the ship's worst single aspect, a high-intensity scenario should measure its best single aspect, and a low-intensity battle should measure the combined value of all relevant aspects.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1393 on: 02 December 2018, 10:43:11 »
Alsadius:  This raises a couple of concerns to me:

1.)  Shipboard missile launchers are, in the utter absence of PDS, still very poor weapon systems past about 10 rounds per launcher.  If you see fights as lasting hours before decision, shipboard missile launchers have no role.

2.)  Ship manuvering speeds and weapon ranges, in tabletop, allow at least the idea of decisive long range engagement.  If fights last hours, any advantage of long range fire is rendered trivial, as the range will certainly be closed in the first 10 minutes of the 6 hour fight.  Assuming of course a range advantage is not coupled with sufficient thrust advantage to hold the range for all six hours.

Given the above, and knowing now your underlying assumptions, the reason behind  some of my perceptions about combat thus far (shipboard launchers are a bad use of tonnage, NACs are the decisive weapon, the bigger the better) is now made clear.

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1394 on: 02 December 2018, 10:54:54 »
Impressive, though it's worth noting that you're embedding a lot of tabletop assumptions that don't get implemented in quite the same way here.
1) Side-aspect targeting penalties seem like they're mostly designed to describe crossing motion, not simply sitting there with your broadside hanging out - the broadside aspect is physically larger than the nose aspect, so all else being equal it should be easier to hit. I haven't worked any aspect penalties into my combat math thus far.
I am actually thinking about transverse velocity as generating the to-hit penalty.  Not using aspect penalties makes it a bit easier to have combat at extreme range.
2) The range discussion was talking about if it's "only at extreme", which assumes the standard aero range brackets. I'm using advanced aero ranges, because it adds texture to the combat(and allows things like NAC/25s to be used reasonably - given the small number of weapon options, I want them all to have a place). That means that big to-hit differentials can persist to fairly short ranges - to take an extreme case, at 19-20 hexes, a Barracuda is at short range while a NAC/40 is at extreme range.
That's a good point not fully captured in the above.  It means that NAC/40 boats like Rapid Ventilation are not quite as effective as high intensity combat would suggest.
3) While "aft hits can disable engines" is an obvious "crit table" effect, I've fuzzed out a lot of the others a bit. You can hit the CIC or the ammo magazines from the front or the side, it mostly just depends on how hard you hit and how lucky you are. There's important systems all throughout the hull, and there's no particular aspect that'll be immune from very serious crits.
Even the game rules have this---it's just much rarer to have a systemically disabling critical hit from a side aspect.

For the purpose of this game, are systemically disabling crits equally likely from every aspect?
To assist with your efforts to put this into math, I'd say a backstab scenario should measure the ship's worst single aspect,
'Single worst aspect' is different from the above because it mostly should not happen---a fleet should do a 'circle the wagons' (or 3-d variant) if they are faced with an opponent able to backstab. 
a high-intensity scenario should measure its best single aspect,
That's done.  However, it's important to note that I'm including structure for a side aspect (consistent with rare systemically disabling critical hits) and not for the nose aspect (consistent with common systemically disabling critical hits).  Should that change?
and a low-intensity battle should measure the combined value of all relevant aspects.
I'm presently not including an aft aspect in low-intensity battle.  In terms of Battletech, the aft-side armor will already be gone by the time you get to it with gun bays typically critted out and aft armor significantly depleted. 

Thinking further, perhaps I've missed a battle type: the chase.  Force A is chasing force B out of the system.  Force A must have a speed higher than force B and force B can only really use their aft aspect unless they decide to give up on fleeing.   We haven't seen any chases, but it's easy enough to imagine them happening if (say) a fleet of NAC boats is threatened by a faster fleet of HNPPCs.

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1395 on: 02 December 2018, 11:02:08 »
Regarding combat intensity, this is one where I'm torn between following the BattleTech rules or following plausible battle dynamics. I've gone more for the former, but I try to stretch things out a little bit. Eight rounds is fairly long to produce a clear result if we resolved the battle with tabletop rules, especially with standard armour, but eight minutes to kill the Hood was considered astonishingly short at Denmark Strait. Battles lasting hours or even days, sometimes without decisive results, are more typical in RL. I've mostly gone with "as long as plausible under tabletop rules" as my rule of thumb, but that'll vary depending on rolls and what sort of plot ideas I come up with.
W.r.t. duration, it seems important to distinguish tabletop rules vs. tabletop play.   Tabletop play favors fast resolution as otherwise it becomes boring.  But the tabletop rules at least allow for the possibility of relatively long fights.   If the faster unit has only a very slight range advantage, then they would be dipping in and out of range in a pilot's battle, with each shot having high odds of missing.   Even with fleet scale engagements it could take a long time to resolve combat.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1396 on: 02 December 2018, 11:09:19 »
If there isnt an increased vulerability to the fore and aft aspects, logically would not a concentration of capital firepower on a single aspect (fore or aft) with a matching armor concentration, be the ideal result?

I ask because this looks like almost nothing in cannon, but the 10% fire control tax from putting, say, 40xNAC 40 on the nose, rather than 20 on each side aspect, coupled with sufficent speed to close, would be trivial compared to the massive advantage reaped in firepower and effective armor.

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1397 on: 02 December 2018, 11:13:22 »
If there isnt an increased vulerability to the fore and aft aspects, logically would not a concentration of capital firepower on a single aspect (fore or aft) with a matching armor concentration, be the ideal result?
Yes.   Equal crit vulnerability from all aspects implies the optimal design places heavy armor + weapons in the nose.  The battletech crit & aspect rules seem to have been engineered to allow for that to not be the optimal strategy, at least not always.

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1398 on: 02 December 2018, 12:09:50 »
Even with the increased vulerability, Ive had a 4/6 Nac Nose, deep fuel tank, ‘high speed engagement’ specialist on the drawing board for a long time now.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1399 on: 02 December 2018, 15:01:39 »
Battles lasting hours or even days, sometimes without decisive results, are more typical in RL.
You gotta show me those reports of recent space battles.
I think a battle between warships is more akin to a duel between Helicopters or jet fighters, dependng on the size and speed.
Those ships are relatively fragile, and relatively fast.
I really don't see long battles happening that ofte unless both fleets jump in near the edge of their range, or the engaging faction spends a few hours on heavy deceleration, because they require speed to meet in the first place, and they might as well use some of that speed to quickly close the range. So if one faction has shorter range weapons, in the usual scenario it will be able to make at least a single pass on the enemy bring those weapons to bear before flying out again (think of it as a very slow high speed engagement). In fact, a fleeing fleet with lower range weapons, of equal or even slightly slower speed to their pursuers and at the edge of the pursuing fleets range envelope, could probably turn it into a slugging match by just one clever maneuver - turning the fleet a half turn ahead of the enemy reacting would result in sufficient thrust to close into what in brackets might be lower long range.
I believe a sea battle doesn't normally have this dynamic.

Regarding individual weapon ranges: That's nice now, but has a few issues in the future - say, subcaps, where some of them will have plain worse range than standard weapons for no gain - and I'd like to raise the point of what is the niche of smaller sized PPCs? They have the same tonnage/damage ratio, same with heat, if memory serves right, and they are shorter ranged.
I wonder if very large capital weapons should maybe have a bigger difficulty to hit relatively small targets, say, small dropships?
Ballistics do that by range, but energy weapons Invert that dynamic.
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Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1400 on: 02 December 2018, 21:39:24 »
One subproblem is: How well can a faster fleet control separation from a slower fleet?

In thinking about this, it's important to realize that fleet needs to voluntarily lose initiative in order to maintain cohesion as a fleet.  Given that you have voluntarily lost initiative, the opposing fleet (minus perhaps one member) is allowed to effectively act second. 

If both fleets start some distance apart at rest, how much position variaton can be created?  The slower fleet can thrust in one direction by max_thrust and in the other direction by max_thrust-3 implying a velocity variation of 2*max_thrust-3.  The faster fleet could therefore minimize this by employing thrust +1.5 to make the relative velocity variation be in the interval [-max_thrust+1.5, max_thrust-1.5].  In further rounds, the velocity variation can be reduced by the overtake (=max_thrust_1 - max_thrust_2) of the faster fleet each round.    The velocity variation creates a position variation by summing the velocity variations over rounds.   The general relationship has a formula, but the number of possibilities is low so we can just make a table:

max_thrust \ overtake1.5       3         4.5       
3 1.51.51.5
4.5 4.533
6 96
7.5 15

So, an overtake of 1.5 (the most common case) on a 3/4.5 fleet (also common) implies a separation distance variation of +/- 4.5 space hexes.   

Max_thrust 3 (or less) implies that the faster force can essentially hold the range fixed while a max_thrust 7.5 creates a quite large variation for a max_thrust 9 warship trying to keep the range fixed.


marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1401 on: 03 December 2018, 07:34:46 »
Alsadius, could we get an update on where we are on the turn?  Thanks!

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1402 on: 03 December 2018, 09:54:46 »
One subproblem is: How well can a faster fleet control separation from a slower fleet?

In thinking about this, it's important to realize that fleet needs to voluntarily lose initiative in order to maintain cohesion as a fleet.  Given that you have voluntarily lost initiative, the opposing fleet (minus perhaps one member) is allowed to effectively act second. 

If both fleets start some distance apart at rest, how much position variaton can be created?  The slower fleet can thrust in one direction by max_thrust and in the other direction by max_thrust-3 implying a velocity variation of 2*max_thrust-3.  The faster fleet could therefore minimize this by employing thrust +1.5 to make the relative velocity variation be in the interval [-max_thrust+1.5, max_thrust-1.5].  In further rounds, the velocity variation can be reduced by the overtake (=max_thrust_1 - max_thrust_2) of the faster fleet each round.    The velocity variation creates a position variation by summing the velocity variations over rounds.   The general relationship has a formula, but the number of possibilities is low so we can just make a table:

max_thrust \ overtake1.5       3         4.5       
3 1.51.51.5
4.5 4.533
6 96
7.5 15

So, an overtake of 1.5 (the most common case) on a 3/4.5 fleet (also common) implies a separation distance variation of +/- 4.5 space hexes.   

Max_thrust 3 (or less) implies that the faster force can essentially hold the range fixed while a max_thrust 7.5 creates a quite large variation for a max_thrust 9 warship trying to keep the range fixed.

This is one place where the very artificial "I Go U Go" nature of the tabletop game really shows itself, IMHO.

Now, there is some potential, I believe, for a fleet to 'surprise' an opponent by suddenly turning and applying thrust in an unexpected direction - but I believe the surprise is more likely to be of the 'Hmm, why do they want to close the range, oh god, those arent Naval Laser Mounts, their NACs!  Theyve been modified!' and less of the 'Wait, weve been outmanuvered and suddenly lost/they have gained the range gague'.

Thes things are big and slowwww on the helm.  If ships are well coordinated at helm by computers and light-speed links, then one force can respond as quickly as the other, and its trival to tell your computer 'maneuver us as best possible to maintain range between X and Y and facing Z'.

If ships are not so coordinated, then battle fleets get so unwieldy that keeping the fleet together and not allowing units to wander off due to a lost order or oversite would seem such a priority that your unlikely to see really clever fleet manuvering/range jumping.

Given the constant threat of the "order, counter-order, counter-counter-order, disorder" cycle, I imagine each fleet will know what engagement profile they are going for, maneuver as best as possible to get it, and focus on maintaining cohesion to the exclusion of tactical complexity. 

Historically, cute tactical fillips are the province of small unit actions, espc. solo operators, and tactical complexity is a peacetime hobby - quickly abandoned in war to 'have a good enough plan to win thats simple enough to execute'.  Fleets tend to live and die on math, the effect of coiled combat power waiting to be unsprung, a handful of manuver choices, and a small number of crucial decisions as to when exactly to pull trigger, whether to deploy port or starboard, whether to load torpedos or bombs, etc.  One of the things that I enjoy about naval strategy and tactics is the way an Empire can rise or fall on things like 'Do I turn left or right in the fog'.
« Last Edit: 03 December 2018, 10:07:48 by marcussmythe »

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1403 on: 03 December 2018, 11:56:29 »
Thes things are big and slowwww on the helm.  If ships are well coordinated at helm by computers and light-speed links, then one force can respond as quickly as the other, and its trival to tell your computer 'maneuver us as best possible to maintain range between X and Y and facing Z'.
The range of an engagement is up to 1008km (=56 space hexes), so I guess the question is: Can one force determine another force's attitude and thrust in near real time to sufficient precision so as to match course?  This is 1/10th the range of battlefield radar so it does seem likely that you can collect an opposing fleet's facing, orientation, and velocity and input that to a computer so that it operates according to a range-maintaining vector. 

One caution though: you can't generally control facing and range against a maneuvering target.  if they thrust towards you, you must thrust away while if they thrust away, you must thrust towards them.  This implies that designs focused on maintaining range must split firepower across multiple arcs.  This also seems to be something not modeled in my first attempt.

Edit: A screen launcher might materially impact the ability to control range since it explicitly blocks LOS.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1404 on: 03 December 2018, 12:15:31 »
The range of an engagement is up to 1008km (=56 space hexes), so I guess the question is: Can one force determine another force's attitude and thrust in near real time to sufficient precision so as to match course?  This is 1/10th the range of battlefield radar so it does seem likely that you can collect an opposing fleet's facing, orientation, and velocity and input that to a computer so that it operates according to a range-maintaining vector. 

One caution though: you can't generally control facing and range against a maneuvering target.  if they thrust towards you, you must thrust away while if they thrust away, you must thrust towards them.  This implies that designs focused on maintaining range must split firepower across multiple arcs.  This also seems to be something not modeled in my first attempt.

True.  The tabletop rules permit such extravagances as continually thrusting in one direction, turning to face another, then thrusting again - but the cost in thrust is prohibitive, and of course, while the rules have discreet time slices, the universe does not.  The above of course presumes Newtonian motion, which is an optional rather than default rule - but I cannot imagine we play under the classic 'all velocity is in the direction the nose is pointing' default rule.

In a laser tail design, I would think one would use thrust to set up an intended closest point of approach, and then point the tail to the opponent, using thrust as needed to avoid the closest point being too close - for a lasertail design, the only concern is a too close approach.. if you do not get close enough, try again!

For a NACNose, the problem is mostly simpler - acceleration with nose on target should be sufficient, once you are within tactical ranges - especially if youve gone to a higher thrust design as the NAC-Nose permits.

I will admit some of the impetus behind Buri was to simplify these matters.  Have sufficient range that you do not worry about being out-ranged, and sufficient armor and weight of fire to address even a close ranged focused, aggressively closing opponent.  Maneuver is and should of course be used to delay that closing, but such maneuver would be outside the tactical space, intending to ensure as low an engagement speed and relative velocity as possible.  A true 'high speed engagement' profile would disadvantage Buri as against a NACNose force, but that is why she operates in consort with carriers - a wall of Fighter-borne Killer Whales, fired with the velocity modifiers of high speed engagement, seem to discourage such overruns - and may be the best use case for missiles more generally.

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1405 on: 03 December 2018, 13:33:15 »
In a laser tail design, I would think one would use thrust to set up an intended closest point of approach, and then point the tail to the opponent, using thrust as needed to avoid the closest point being too close - for a lasertail design, the only concern is a too close approach.. if you do not get close enough, try again!
This is the Matador design.  it could work, but it seems like you need a margin of 3-4 overtake so you can have a closing velocity of 1, turn (using 3 thrust) and cancel your closing velocity.  This would also be extra slow between extreme range shots and the constant yoyo in and out of range.

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1406 on: 03 December 2018, 15:39:14 »
This is the Matador design.  it could work, but it seems like you need a margin of 3-4 overtake so you can have a closing velocity of 1, turn (using 3 thrust) and cancel your closing velocity.  This would also be extra slow between extreme range shots and the constant yoyo in and out of range.

Matador makes a lot of sense when you consider a larger neighbor with heavy NAC based armament.  Unless they start installing some NL/55s or NPPCs, in theory Matador could wear down  Crucis or Galahad, despite the vast weight disparity, assuming the Matador did not have something she needed to defend. (and assuming she wasnt badly damaged or lamed by the missiles on the big Davion ships)

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1407 on: 03 December 2018, 16:03:26 »
We'll have to live with the fact (probably for the better) that the space combat we engage in is in no way realistic.
Just take a look at the fuel consumption. Within the rules corset we have, fleets that rely on range will probably require superior training even before the advent of ECM, as you need to both have good gunners and be able to consistently win initiative.
So as much as we might all like to, skirting the range envelope and plinking away is unlikely to work, barring designs so optimized for the task they can do absolutely nothing else. .. I'm starting the get aggravated by my tablets keyboard.

Of course, if we do have newtonian movement, which I hope we do, there might still be some interesting tactics available.
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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1408 on: 03 December 2018, 16:56:37 »
We'll have to live with the fact (probably for the better) that the space combat we engage in is in no way realistic.
Just take a look at the fuel consumption. Within the rules corset we have, fleets that rely on range will probably require superior training even before the advent of ECM, as you need to both have good gunners and be able to consistently win initiative.
So as much as we might all like to, skirting the range envelope and plinking away is unlikely to work, barring designs so optimized for the task they can do absolutely nothing else. .. I'm starting the get aggravated by my tablets keyboard.

Of course, if we do have newtonian movement, which I hope we do, there might still be some interesting tactics available.

Alsadius has said hes mentally bumping up accuracy at long range.  Ranges need to be usable.

Even with that aside, long range weapons are more accurate at medium ranges than medium range weapons, so even if you draw the accuracy threshold 'in' some, they still present the opportunity for first, effective, attack - and will be more accurate than the NACs until the range is quite close indeed!

The real question is going to be whether or not a fast opponent can 'run under the guns' of a longer ranged opponent before the longer ranged opponent can get a decisive advantage with longer range fire.

In the real world, before certain advances in fire control, the answer was 'always', and smaller, lighter, faster firing guns dominated.

After those advances, the answer was 'never', and large naval rifles were decisive at previously unimaginable.

Here, I think the answer will likely be 'it depends'.  Alsadius wants very much for there to not be any 'right' or 'wrong' answers.

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1409 on: 03 December 2018, 17:12:06 »
Yet there are.
Like Naval Gauss, or lighter NPPCs, or Whiteshark Launchers. We'll have to live with some of those. And unless he goes completely by what 'feels right', and doesn't play this out in any way, there will be superior approaches. And while range and other concerns might make NACs not the obvious and only choice, which I actually believe they aren't, I still think that focussing purely on sniping is a foolish endeavour before the advent of bracketing.
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