Piratical Kingdoms

[megrisvernin]

New battletech reader and player here. So this question is more lore based. Think 3000-3025 era for timeframe.

I've heard a lot of minor periphery states being shades of piratical.

With the Tortuga Domain out and out pirates, and the Marian Hegemony often engaging in it. Is that about right?

I'm curious how 'piratical' other lesser states like the Lothial League, Cicirinus Federation or Illyrian Palatinate are.

And also somewhat interested if anyone can fill me in on how strong these factions are verses each other in the periphery. Particularly interested in metrics like jumpship numbers/mech numbers. How do these various piratical states compare against each other and stack up versus major more major periphery state like Canopus or Taurus?

[Daryk]

The Lothians aren't pirates at all, but Circinus is ALL pirate ALL the time.  The Illyrians aren't really pirates either, but they might give safe harbor to questionable JumpShips showing up with rather more varied cargo than usual.  None of them have large fleets of ships.  Single digits at best.  They mostly rely on Free Traders.

[rebs]

Hello.  Welcome to the forum!

None of the Bandit Kingdoms could stand up to the full force of the Taurians or Canopians. 

The Marrians of 3025 could cause damage, but it would be a lost cause for them to concentrate enough to do it, and thus be vulnerable to an open attack from either power. 

The Oberon Confedaration - a Bandit Kingdom masquerading as a viable state - would come closest in the damage they could do, but they are on the opposite side of the Inner Sphere as the Taurians or Canopians.

And the Circinus pirates spread out into company sized raiders when they are active.  That way when the Lyrans or Freeworlders try to swat them, they are not concentrated and can move in and out of star systems easier.

[Minemech]

 When you think pirate state, the Circinus Federation, Oberon Confederation, and Tortuga Dominions would dominate the average spheroid's mind. The New Belt Pirates might also stick in there. Pirates from random periphery worlds were known to exist.

[Minemech]

 Look up Redjack Ryan for an interesting character.

[rebs]

Yes there are minor pirate bands everywhere.   From a lance sized group up to a company.  Those are for the game master to flesh out and name.

Lovely universe our minds inhabit, isn't it?  ;D

[Minemech]

 Pirates tend to be resource poor compared to major periphery powers. In fact, part of the pact between the Black Warriors and the Circinus Federation was that the pirates provided much needed capital for the Federation. Pirates might actually outgun, and even have the projection abilities to take out a minor periphery state, but doing so would be a bad idea. It would cost massive resources, and draw the attention of Successor States, who may just see a juicy chance to rid their border of a pirate problem. A major periphery power would easily outgun, and outproduce a pirate state.

 To be frank, space pirates are poor, desperate, and depraved individuals.

[glitterboy2098]

most of the "pirate kingdoms" are not actually piratical themselves, so much as locations that turn a blind eye towards pirate activity (or even actively encourage it) and thus become havens for pirate groups to operate out of. territory where other states can't project power without political hurdles (whether with the 'pirate kingdom' or in their own government), to take out out pirate groups, and where the pirates can find merchants willing to buy the loot from the pirate raids and sell supplies without asking too many questions about who is doing the buying or where the stuff being sold to them came from.

[Frabby]

When the Houses do it, it's legitimate politics. When the periphery upstarts do it, it's illegitimate piracy.

Basically, it's hubris on the part of the Great Houses. The so-called pirate realms of the early 31st century - big and small - do pretty much the same objective raiding as the Houses do, but since they're recognized hardly or not at all, the Houses call it piracy instead of campaigning. I think it's the old Star League's institutional anti-periphery bias that makes all the difference.

In my view, (lack of) force projection is what is holding the periphery back. Most pirates can't throw more than a company against any one specific objective. Here in the periphery, the old lostech flair of the BT universe really comes to full blossom. They don't have the JumpShip fleets nor large combat transport DropShips that the Houses have. Which is another holdover from Star League anti-periphery development politics. They also don't have the maintenance capacity to recycle their trashed forces; not like the Inner Sphere, so fewer 'Mechs are available to begin with and attrition is much higher. It's a BT proverb that merc units go to the periphery to die.

[monbvol]

Indeed most of the so called 'Bandit Kingdoms' could scrape up Battalions at best while even the Taurians and Canopians were still able to field Regiments.

The Greater Valkyrate(another bandit kingdom I haven't seen mentioned yet that was active in the specified time frame) were pretty infamous themselves.

As far as Jumpships, yeah they were pretty rare in pirate service but we do have the infamous Star's End which was known to serve/maintain pirate jumpships on a regular basis.  I'll have to check my references again to see if it was actually producing or not but I have vague memories of it being able to or could be made to do so with some effort.

[glitterboy2098]

according to Sarna, the 1st ed periphery sourcebook said it could "assemble" dropships and jumpships with rumors that Germanium deposits in the system meant it could manufacture KF cores.

since there was a SLDF fleet base and supply depot on the same world (sarna cites Historical: Reunification War), i'd guess that the succession wars era yard was the remains of that fleet base. which suggests that it probably could build new ships, but probably wasn't set up to mass produce all the parts involved. so i'd guess production would be slow if making stuff from scratch using raw materials. but if they had a supply of pre-made parts they could probably manufacture a new ship easily.

[Minemech]

 A key event of the 31st century was the Illyrian Palatinate fending off the Circinus Federation. The Circinus Federation was not a weak state by periphery standards, but the Palatinate happened to hire the right mercenaries for the job. Had the Circinus Federation succeeded, it would have likely gunned for the Lothian League and worked to gain a better reputation. Later, the Marian Hegemony would have success against the Illyrian Palatinate, which helped build that state's fanbase.

 Pirate states do think in power centric terms, and also seek legitimacy. Aside from that, The Black Warriors genuinely descended from the SLDF, and could be restored to a prestigious status if the Circinus Federation so desired. BattleTech history is rife with missed opportunities.

[idea weenie]

most of the "pirate kingdoms" are not actually piratical themselves, so much as locations that turn a blind eye towards pirate activity (or even actively encourage it) and thus become havens for pirate groups to operate out of. territory where other states can't project power without political hurdles (whether with the 'pirate kingdom' or in their own government), to take out out pirate groups, and where the pirates can find merchants willing to buy the loot from the pirate raids and sell supplies without asking too many questions about who is doing the buying or where the stuff being sold to them came from.

That could be an idea for a 'pirate kingdom'.  They have Mechs and can raid nearby worlds, but they are the only ones with functioning Jumpship and Dropships that know about the worlds.  So instead of raiding, they trade goods from one world to another and in the process make making obscene profit for themselves (profit in the form of spare parts, quality food, etc).  If a world refuses to turn over its tribute/trade goods, they cut off trade with that world.  That world then has to go without the various items it used to be able to import.

I.e. the pirate realm may have:

• 2-3 worlds that grow food, but don't have industry to replace the farming equipment
• a world that has light industry focused around steel products, but little food growing
• a world with light industry focused on aluminum products, but little food growing
• a world with light industry focused on low-tech computer goods, but little food growing
• a world that has heavy equipment capability, but no capability to repair/replace its technological goods

Each of these worlds needs the other, and the pirates are the only ones that can help them trade.  If any of them rebel, they soon run out of spare parts for their equipment.

Pirates might try to make each world have two specialties, so if the world producing heavy industry rebels, one of the other worlds can produce some of the heavy equipment.  This keeps a world from trying to rebel thinking "wait, we're the only ones who produce this, we control the trade".  This capability would be limited to the worlds that have been loyal the longest.

Basically a smaller form of the Star League, where each world is specialized for a different technical area.  Individually the worlds would die, together they survive.

it also means if the PCs take out this pirate group, they need to have their Jumpship and Dropship take the pirates' place, otherwise everyone dies.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

You have your wretched hives of scum and villainy in Antallos and Astrokazy(complete with nigh inhospitable desert worlds).

[Daryk]

Astrokaszy is endless fun!  8)

[Minemech]

 There are plenty of periphery worlds that are enclaves for pirates and scum. In many cases it has more to do with realism. Those mercenaries on the run could become planetary defenders if I allow them settling rights, and possibly even give them dress uniforms and medals. I could give key members titles, and keep them busy. If I go after them, they might take down my own government. What they do elsewhere is their business, as long as they understand that it is not to be traced to this world.

 This situation is probably what actuated the tactics of the 8th Orloff. They can settle on your world, and raid anyone, but us.

[megrisvernin]

Thanks for the answers everyone this was quite useful!

[Intermittent_Coherence]

There are plenty of periphery worlds that are enclaves for pirates and scum. In many cases it has more to do with realism. Those mercenaries on the run could become planetary defenders if I allow them settling rights, and possibly even give them dress uniforms and medals. I could give key members titles, and keep them busy. If I go after them, they might take down my own government. What they do elsewhere is their business, as long as they understand that it is not to be traced to this world.

 This situation is probably what actuated the tactics of the 8th Orloff. They can settle on your world, and raid anyone, but us.

That's assuming they even bother letting the inhabitants know about them.
Planets are big. Planetary population sizes in the Periphery are low enough, and coupled with over all low tech levels mean some might not even know they're sharing a planet with somebody else.

[Minemech]

That's assuming they even bother letting the inhabitants know about them.
Planets are big. Planetary population sizes in the Periphery are low enough, and coupled with over all low tech levels mean some might not even know they're sharing a planet with somebody else.

The logistics of staying hidden are far harsher than building a rapport with the local populace. There are certain needs that you will have to deal with just to survive. That said, you do have the option of staying hidden with the aid of corrupt officials. Heck, you could hide in a Lyran system that way.

[Daryk]

That depends a great deal on how much tech the other side of the planet has.

[Elmoth]

You need something basic, like food. Local populations provide it.
What might happen is that you build your own thing in an unhinabited continent, but you still need people to feed your troops. So I think Minemech has a point here.

[Daryk]

And you could easily have your own enclave doing that very thing without alerting the other side of the planet.

[Elmoth]

Indeed. Nothing against that.

[Major Headcase]

I love the "false flag" pirate kingdom concept: your world has 2 armies, one public and official,  one clandestine.
You use the clandestine force of "pirates" to raid your neighbors (pick your targets well, you want to fleece the sheep not the wolves dressed as sheep!) As trade with your kingdom is effected, you step in to offer your legitimate forces as protection and peace keepers. If they refuse you "pirate" them into the stone age! Once they submit, you station troops on thier planet, the "pirates" put up a good fight, but eventually (after you wring out every concession you can squeeze) they are defeated. And you now have a very accommodating...partner...
You then slowly add your clandestine forces to your legitimate army to reinforce your military superiority over your "friends".  ;)
The Periphery was playing that game long before the Wobbies used it to create their Protectorate, the amateurs...

[Minemech]

 Learn the value of the seed, then sell environmentally suited ones in bulk to the planetary population. Those seeds may be worth more to your unit than another dropship. Remember that few planets are like Terra, and New Avalon. Pre-grown trees can be planted as another source of seasonal food.

[Natasha Kerensky]

New battletech reader and player here. So this question is more lore based. Think 3000-3025 era for timeframe.

I've heard a lot of minor periphery states being shades of piratical.

Bandit kingdoms and minor Periphery states are two different things.  The former engage in bandit raids and piracy against other states and worlds.  The latter do not.

With the Tortuga Domain out and out pirates, and the Marian Hegemony often engaging in it. Is that about right?

Bandit kingdoms in the timeframe you’re interested in and their approximate mech forces are:

Antallos (multiple small independent bands)
Astrokazy (multiple small independent bands)
Circinus Federation (1 regiment)
Marian Hegemony (1 regiment)
Morgraine’s Valkyrate (1-2 battalions)
Oberon Confederation (3 regiments, 1 battalion)
Pirates of Butte Hold (1-2 battalions)
Pirates’ Haven (unknown but likely less than a regiment)
Star’s End Pirates (1 battalion)
Tortuga Dominions (unknown but likely less than a regiment)
Von Strang’s World (1 regiment)

Note that the worlds of Astrokazy and Antallos harbor multiple, small, hard-luck bandit kingdoms, of which many/most/all may be planet-bound at any particular time.

Everything else is either one of the three major Periphery states (Taurian Concordat, Magistracy of Canopus, and Outworlds Alliance) or a minor Periphery state.

Examples of minor Periphery states and their mech forces include the:

Elysian Fields (none, protectorate of Oberon Confederation)
Fiefdom of Randis (small number of mech-mounted knights)
Franklin Fiefs (small number of feudal militias)
Herotitus (none?)
Illyrian Palatinate (2 mercenary battalions)
Lothian League (1 mercenary? regiment)
Mica Majority (1-2 mercenary companies)
New St. Andrews (uncertain number of feudal militias)
Niops Association (none?)

The mech strengths of the three major Periphery states are about:

Magistracy of Canopus (10 regiments and 2 battalions, including mercs)
Outworlds Alliance (3 regiments, as well as five aerospace wings)
Taurian Concordat (12 regiments including 3 mercenary regiments)

I'm curious how 'piratical' other lesser states like the Lothial League, Cicirinus Federation or Illyrian Palatinate are.

I did the write-up for the Circinus Federation in FM: Periphery.  The Circinus Federation  was a bandit kingdom during its entire existence, from its origins in the dissolution of the (first) Star League and Operation Exodus (circa 2780) until its destruction at the end of the Jihad.

Unlike the other bandit kingdoms, the Black Warriors of the Circinus Federation used false flag operations to prevent their Lyran and Marik targets from tracing their raids back to the Federation.  The Circinus Federation may have resembled other, legitimate, minor Periphery powers.  But its government engaged in secret, state-sponsored piracy for centuries.

Except when occupied by the Circinus Federation or Marian Hegemony, the governments and worlds of the Illyrian Palatinate and Lothian League never engaged in piracy and never knowingly harbored bandit kingdoms.

And also somewhat interested if anyone can fill me in on how strong these factions are verses each other in the periphery. Particularly interested in metrics like jumpship numbers/mech numbers. How do these various piratical states compare against each other and stack up versus major more major periphery state like Canopus or Taurus?

I included approximate mech force sizes for your time period above.

[Elmoth]

That is VERY good information!!! Thanks Natasha Kerensky!

You would need to add the new canon Augiran Reach among the pirate kingdoms. At least how the campaign is structured they have at least one band of pirates on their payroll flying around nearby planets attacking government facilities.

Cheers
Xavi

[Minemech]

Bandit kingdoms and minor Periphery states are two different things.  The former engage in bandit raids and piracy against other states and worlds.  The latter do not.

Bandit kingdoms in the timeframe you’re interested in and their approximate mech forces are:

Antallos (multiple small independent bands)
Astrokazy (multiple small independent bands)
Circinus Federation (1 regiment)
Marian Hegemony (1 regiment)
Morgraine’s Valkyrate (1-2 battalions)
Oberon Confederation (3 regiments, 1 battalion)
Pirates of Butte Hold (1-2 battalions)
Pirates’ Haven (unknown but likely less than a regiment)
Star’s End Pirates (1 battalion)
Tortuga Dominions (unknown but likely less than a regiment)
Von Strang’s World (1 regiment)

Note that the worlds of Astrokazy and Antallos harbor multiple, small, hard-luck bandit kingdoms, of which many/most/all may be planet-bound at any particular time.

Everything else is either one of the three major Periphery states (Taurian Concordat, Magistracy of Canopus, and Outworlds Alliance) or a minor Periphery state.

Examples of minor Periphery states and their mech forces include the:

Elysian Fields (none, protectorate of Oberon Confederation)
Fiefdom of Randis (small number of mech-mounted knights)
Franklin Fiefs (small number of feudal militias)
Herotitus (none?)
Illyrian Palatinate (2 mercenary battalions)
Lothian League (1 mercenary? regiment)
Mica Majority (1-2 mercenary companies)
New St. Andrews (uncertain number of feudal militias)
Niops Association (none?)

The mech strengths of the three major Periphery states are about:

Magistracy of Canopus (10 regiments and 2 battalions, including mercs)
Outworlds Alliance (3 regiments, as well as five aerospace wings)
Taurian Concordat (12 regiments including 3 mercenary regiments)

I did the write-up for the Circinus Federation in FM: Periphery.  The Circinus Federation  was a bandit kingdom during its entire existence, from its origins in the dissolution of the (first) Star League and Operation Exodus (circa 2780) until its destruction at the end of the Jihad.

Unlike the other bandit kingdoms, the Black Warriors of the Circinus Federation used false flag operations to prevent their Lyran and Marik targets from tracing their raids back to the Federation.  The Circinus Federation may have resembled other, legitimate, minor Periphery powers.  But its government engaged in secret, state-sponsored piracy for centuries.

Except when occupied by the Circinus Federation or Marian Hegemony, the governments and worlds of the Illyrian Palatinate and Lothian League never engaged in piracy and never knowingly harbored bandit kingdoms.

I included approximate mech force sizes for your time period above.

It should be noted that Star's End pirates are the Belt Pirates. They can fix jumpships.

[Colt Ward]

That is VERY good information!!! Thanks Natasha Kerensky!

You would need to add the new canon Augiran Reach among the pirate kingdoms. At least how the campaign is structured they have at least one band of pirates on their payroll flying around nearby planets attacking government facilities.

Cheers
Xavi

Huh?

The Aurigan Coaltion (the old & new name with the Directorate sandwiched in for a couple years) does not have pirates attacking neighboring govs . . . they DO have a repo team collecting up assets that fled the reformed Coalition.  But they have run into Inner Sphere powers treasure hunting.

[Elmoth]

As a Merc in the area I have destroyed significant local government infrastructure and rescued robbers that are fleeing with plans that are not of their propriety. That is a pirate. The fact that my band gets paid for it does not make the actions less piratical from the POV of the victims.

Pirate, saviour or legitimate military action can be the same thing seen from 3 different points of view.