Terrain tiles cast from a mold

[brucehirst]

Hello everyone!

I'm starting a project of trying my hand at making molds for hex terrain tiles. I understand that quest for making 3D terrain for Battletech has been going on for as long as the game has been around. Most of you don't know me, but I'm Bruce Hirst from Hirst Arts. I sculpt blocks for building terrain and end up selling the molds. Folks pour plaster into the molds to make terrain for their games.

I don't know if any of this will end up working out (I never do on any project I take on), but I would like to create a set of hex rock molds. I have my own message board to post ideas and questions on, however most of the folks on my board like to build castles, want terrain for D&D, Sci-fi games and other bits for 28mm figures. I figured the only way to create something that could be used by Battletech players would be to get some feed back from the experts who actually play the game. I am familiar with the rules and have played a few times myself.

I have done some extensive searching, mostly through "Google images" and have seen a large variety of home made hex terrain. My first thought was to try and make some simple flat hexes with a rock texture that could be cast, glued together in groups, then possibly mounted on foam for additional height. The sides of the foam could be textured afterwards.  Here was my first attempt:



I understand that 1" hexes are too small for Battletech. My intention is to try and make 1.25" tiles and 1.5" tiles. Possibly even 1.75" tiles depending on the popularity of the size. In order to make this idea successful, there is some information I need to know.

What size of hex do most of you use?
How thick would you like these hexes to be?
If you had your choice of 2 types of textures for the hexes, what would they be (rock, grass, dirt, etc.)?

As I experiment with the sculpting and building ideas, I will try and post photos as the project progresses. I understand that many people have different ideas on what their board should look like. Many of these ideas may not be possible, such as representing light and heavy cover (trees and such). However, I do think it's possible to make some really nice looking 3-D natural terrain that can be used on a hex system. I just haven't figured out how to do it yet. Maybe with your help I can figure it out.

Sincerely,
Bruce Hirst

[Netzilla]

I use 1.75 inch hexes as I also use HeroScape terrain. 
As for thickness, I'd have to measure the height of a HS tile.
I think dirt would be the most widely applicable surface texture, though grass wouldn't be far behind.

[Papabees]

Most players that I have seen use either 1.5, 1.75 or 2" tiles. 2" would match many players existing Hex mats so may be where you get the most traction. I'd also suggest a finish like in your picture as I can add grass to that if I want but don't have to.

[Luriael]

I agree with the above, I believe 2" hexes would be the size that fits all the BT games (even clicky tech right?)

I think rocks (like above) and some kind of grassy field would be the most popular but concrete could be a good idea as well. Other than that, maps vary plenty sizewise but on my side of the world there is a lot of 6'x10' (because of 40K I believe).

that terrain looks awesome though, hopefully it won't be too expensive :P

[SteveUK]

I use 1" for alpha strike with Battleforce mini's and 1.5" for standard BT to fit in with the map sheets, I could be tempted by 1.75" if they could be used with heroscape. my choice of textures would be Grass and concrete/tarmac.

[NeonKnight]

I could be tempted by 1.75" if they could be used with heroscape. my choice of textures would be Grass and concrete/tarmac.

It's not a case of if they could...The can.

But I will be honest, after about 30 hexes, you sill see some drift, not a lot, but some.

I use a 1.75 inch hex grid base, and heroscape for hills only...Obviosuly I'll never have pits....but it works great.

[Dak]

Hey Bruce, great to see you here. I love the looks of this project.

I think the simplified terrain used in Battletech's new Alphastrike rules would be a good place to start for textures.

It uses Clear which would probably be the 'grass' most have mentioned. I think the texture of your Starship Deck Mold #270 (the rough areas) is about perfect for this. Maybe some patchiness  here and there for realism. Or a few shallow craters for fun (that will be tricky to keep the surface as flat as possible).

Rough/Rubble terrain could be what you've shown off already. Maybe a few tiles with some added 'chunks' (yet still flat overall).

Water texture would be a great tile to see next. Maybe a few intensities of 'waves' per mold, the harsher ones could represent deeper water. I already envision people casting these with transparent resin!

Pavement is a cool idea as well. A good smooth surface with very faint cracks (easily pronounced with a paint wash) would be neat. (If you want to get extra Hirst-ey, maybe some with channels and separately molded insets that can represent pavement markings -- ones you paint separately and assemble after painting like the recent Robo Rally factory conveyors. Just dreaming here.)

Battletech does use wooded hexes, these do sound difficult to pull off. But perhaps a clumpier/lumpier variation of the grass tiles would work if painted differently. It's really only a representation for game rules Battletech is looking for. Not photo realism of course. But the more visually appealing a game board is the better as you know!

Can't wait to see this develop -- whatever your choices turn out to be!

Dak

[ColBosch]

One thing I'd suggest is for molds that cover more than one hex each. That is, with seven-hex "rosettes" as the basic unit, to minimize setup times and misalignment. I play several games that use hexes, so I'll be watching this project closely.

[brucehirst]

OK, it's taken me a lot of practice but I think I have the process down of getting the rock texture to look much better. I'm now starting on the hex 1.5" tiles. These things take a while because I can only work on it in my spare time.

What I'm going to do is combine a few hexes. If my plan works out, on the mold I will have:
Two single hexes
Two "clump of two" hexes
Two "clump of three" hexes
One each of half hexes (split from flat-to-flat and corner-to-corner)

Keep in mind that I am severely limited by the amount of space on each mold. I'm already planning these molds to be "double sized" as compared to my usual molds and these are the only combinations of hex groups that will fit. Any larger groupings of hexes and I use up all the mold space and you won't have as much of a variety of shapes to rearrange.

By grouping the hexes into clumps I can give a more natural stone texture (making them overlap a little) but you can still get a good idea of where each hex is. The real trick is to end up with the flat surface on each hex so the mini doesn't fall over. I also have found a way to make the very bottom of each clump an exact hex shape so the hexes fit perfectly.

However, as you go up the vertical side, the rock's shape changes and you don't end up with a hex shape on the top exactly. This helps to make the rock more natural looking, even if the base is exact. The total height of each rock slab will probably not be any thicker than 1/2" and vary to as thin as 1/8".

I'll post some more photos in a couple of days.
Thanks,
Bruce Hirst

[shop1ift]

I use a 1.75" hex mat and Heroscape tiles for my hills, water etc.
I use 1.75" hexes
Maybe .25" - .5" thick? Not sure, as I use heroscape and don't have any in front of me to measure
I'd like Concrete/Asphalt and rough/rubble terrain

[brucehirst]

Thanks for all of the responses so far! These really help me to know what types of terrain would be used the most.

Here's a couple of photos of some test tiles for the 1.5" hexes:


At the moment I only have 3 pieces completely done but this gives me an idea of how they fit together. I think the "double hex" piece works to help hide the obvious hex pattern but still gives you a good idea of where the hexes are. 



When all put together, I think they have a fairly natural flow - at least a more natural flow than the Heroscape tiles. The Battletech mechs can set flat on the surface - not perfectly (they may lean a little) but they won't fall over.



Finally, the back of the pieces are a perfect hex so you can fit them together easily. However, they would have to be mounted on something because they wouldn't hold together by just gluing them end to end. If you wanted a single layer of hexes to move around on top of a hex mat, you would probably have to mount them onto cork or foam core board.

I'm now working on the second "double hex" and also on the "group of three" hexes. Let me know if you can think of a better or more usable way to make these rock hexes.

Thanks,
Bruce Hirst

[TS_Hawk]

those look very nice

[Luriael]

those look awesome! So far so good really, that 1.5 looks perfect with CBT minis. Does it take long for you to produce the hexes? Can't wait to see if you'll do grass and 'concrete/asphalt', that would cover many of the needs for a map!

[cavingjan]

A couple comments:

1. looks nice but looks too thick and more importantly too heavy. I'm used to a ping pong table for a play surface so they look like thel would add up quickly in the weight department.

2. For wooded, I would skip them and focus on the floor. Is it possible to slip either a magnet sheet or metal sheet underneath some of the tiles. You could then put a magnet on the bottom of the trees and remove them as needed (either you don't want them for this game or you need to move something there and the trees are in the way and you just need to move them off to the side for the game). If magnets aren't an option, Look into some clear hex bases to glue them onto so they can be removed as needed.

3. I suspect that the uneven surface would cause some problem for some of my mechs and especially infantry (I use small square bases with single infantry figure to represent the unit)

[brucehirst]

Thanks for all of the responses!

We will be gone on vacation midweek but I imagine I should have most of the hexes finished by the end of next week and will show some more photos.  I also wanted to explain some of my reasons for doing the tiles as you see in the photos.

First, there is no way to give everyone what they want. Most times you have to give up some things in order to gain others. It really comes down to what the main goals of the project are. I'll list my goals of this project below.

Second, keep in mind that these tiles are meant to help with only one part of the terrain building process. They should have their place but they are not meant to build a whole table. Since they will only cap off the tops of small hills, I really don't think that weight will be an issue. I think it makes more sense to set small terrain pieces on top of a printed map of some kind, or carve large ground sections out of slab of light foam and add ground cover. With that in mind, here are my goals for this particular mold:

1. It should give the tops of mountains and hills a natural rocky look.
2. You should be able to set most miniatures on it without them falling over.
3. You should have a fair idea of where each hex is.

To reach these three goals, there are other things that I have to skimp on or completely give up on such as uniform thickness. The flatter and more uniform I make the tiles, the less natural they will look. They probably will not work quite as well for small infantry but keep in mind that these would only be used for the tops of hills anyway.

After making these tiles, the next step is to cast them and see if I can come up with a an easy method to make good looking hills. I want to offer a way that those with average building skills can make something really nice. Still, there's no guarantee that these will work out like I'm picturing. Once you put all of the tiles together, the look from far away will be very different from looking at them up close. It's likely that I may have to remake all of the tiles from scratch in order to make the "far away" view look right. All I can do is plod away on these and see what happens.

I've also been thinking about other textures and how they would be used. I believe these rock hexes can be used for a few other surfaces by adding some ground foam or other scenic materials.  To mount small buildings on them, you would probably put down a small mound of air-dry clay, then embed your building into it (since the top surface is not entirely level).

I think it will be kind of a fun and interesting challenge to see if there are other hexes that would work, especially for city types of terrain but I would have to rethink what the goals would be for that. Anyway, please keep posting your thought and ideas for other types of hexes that could be cast from a mold.

Thanks,
Bruce Hirst

[Luriael]

See, my impression was; you buy x amount of various tiles and build yourself a whole map from them. I personally don't see the benefit of say acquiring 10 hexes to build a hill or a rocky part of a map and leave the rest kind of plain. Or get a few of your tiles and then I have to sculpt the remaining of my terrain. Honestly, for me, it's either all in or I sculpt everything.

I understand your approach though, you probably aim at those who want to build a hill on a flat hex map. I guess my way will depend on the price of those tiles :)

[brucehirst]

Actually, in this case it's the price of the mold.  I only sell the molds that people pour their own plaster in and make as many tiles as they want.  In other words, you could build a whole board out of the hexes depending on how much time you want to spend casting these things.

The other thing to consider is the weight. A whole board of hexes would be pretty heavy but I suppose you could make it in sections. I had considered making hexes of other textures such as sand, grass and so forth.  I guess the question is "How many people would actually use these hexes?" compared to the other means available to make a board. Would a whole board of sand hexes really be any better than a hex mat with a printed sand texture?

I'm pretty sure that making a whole mountain would be far too heavy in plaster, hence the idea of gluing these onto foam. Heroscape already has a method of making mountains from exact hexes that are light. I'm trying to make something a bit more natural looking that you can customize by breaking, adding clay and gluing things on.

About 10 years ago, a friend of mine introduced me to Battletech and asked me to make him some hex molds that he could use for hills and mountains. The best I could come up with at the time were textured hex blocks similar to the Heroscape pieces (only 1.25" instead). I was kind of frustrated at how they had come out and knew that somewhere there was a better (or nicer looking way) to make this work. I would come back to the idea occasionally but would still not have any good answers. I'm finally trying to put a good solid effort into it this time because I'm sure there's a way to make this work.

Thanks,
Bruce Hirst

[Dak]

A plus to having boards made entirely from cast tiles is that the board can change every time you play. GMs could setup different boards for different missions and goals. I would envision people casting up tiles and gluing them down to cork or foam core in larger groups as they feel they would need. Over time they build up a 'library' of potential pieces. Then those various shapes plus spare loose tiles could be recombined into different maps. Sounds fun to me!

Be sure to check out the Hirst Arts website to see how Bruce's molds have been used for 28mm RPGs and other miniatures games.

Dak

[Ronin Actual]

If these molds are anything like the rubber molds for making railroad scenery, I have had a lot of luck pressing sculpey into them and then baking the sculpey.  These are still brittle, but way more durable than plaster of Paris.

[Ratboy]

My interest, instead of making a hexed-board, would be to use the castings as custom bases. There are plenty of companies making round and square bases, but no hexes.


As an example for the test tiles above ("Desert Stone"), I would imagine the mold having 4 different styles of "Desert Stone" base in 5 sizes (1", 1.5", 2", 2.5" and 3") (or buying a "set" of molds)



Alpha Strike's popularity is only going to grow and many units are larger than the regular hex base sizes.

[brucehirst]

Well, I've finally had time to finish up a set of test hexes and I've learned a few things. First, my original idea was OK but there were some problems.



My idea was to vary the height for a more natural look but leave several points the same level so a miniature could stand on the hex. The main problem for me arises when you group a large number of these together. I tried to imagine what a large surface would look like if covered with these hexes and I didn't like it. It would end up looking like a quarry heap - nothing but a jumble of loose rock. It also disguises the hex patter a little too well.

While it didn't look terrible, it wasn't what I was after. Also I tried to imagine placing a building or machinery on top of this rock. Most buildings would cover more than one hex and you wouldn't have a level surface to plant it on.  I originally thought of having folks put a small blob of air-drying clay down before setting the building. This would end up looking like a mound of dirt that the building would be raised on. However, you could not stack these hexes on top of each other for pillars of rock.

The trick is to make a surface that looks like rock which you can stack up, easily mount buildings on but still have somewhat of a natural look to it (at least more natural than using Heroscape tiles).  Here's what I ended up with:



These hexes are exactly 1/2" tall, you can stack them together, mount buildings on them, mechs can stand up and they have a fairly natural look to them.  I also made some hexes where one edge tapered down, two edges tapered down, three edges tapered and so on. These would be placed around the outside edges to hide the straight hex rock edges. If you wanted some blocks with a more natural varying height you can always fill up the mold only part-way for thinner tiles.



Here is the complete set of hexes that will come out of the mold. I included half hexes (split both ways) and a left and right quarter hex. These will allow you to make flat edges on large sections. You can also just glue the halves together to make full hexes. I had considered making these tiles only 1/4" thick instead so you would not have quite so much heavy plaster. However, these are for building rock hills and rock hills have height. If I end up making other types of ground cover, I imagine those hexes would be thinner.

I'm going to make the test master mold today. Then I'll make some duplicates, cast them and see if these pieces act the way I hope they will. Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Bruce Hirst

[ph423r]

I know I'll definitely be in line for a mold or two of this.  O0

[Kovax]

I'm thinking about putting some "trees" in either one or two adjacent corners or sides of the hex, so the mini still has enough room for the base to sit on it comfortably, which will represent Light or Heavy woods, depending on the number of trees.  A more "foresty" look would require a 2" hex in order to fit both the 'Mech base and the surrounding trees.

Basic ground cover for the "Level 0" areas of the map could be done with much thinner hexes than these "hill" pieces, like 1/8" thick or even less, to save on both carrying weight and plaster.  Water (below "Level 0") could be done with a printed 2D or mildly textured flat piece sitting between the "Level 0" hexes, as long as there are hexes in the set with one and two sloped edges.

[Kret69]

I like those - as well as the earlier ones. The previous would allow to build a small stream running, after painting, flocking and pouring some still water.

Great stuff, I'm definately observing this thread.

[PaddyMac]

As an old customer of Bruce's, I can't tell you how happy I am that he is making hexes. I know what I will be buying soon!

[brucehirst]

Here's an update on the project so far.  Below is a photo of the finished test hill.

I cast this out of dental stone so this hill weighs 3 pounds. If you cast it out of something such as "Woodland Scenics extra light weight Hydrocal" then it would probably only weigh 1.5-2 pounds instead.

Allow me to give you a quick overview of the cost and process of doing this. The cost of the silicone is expensive so this may turn off a lot of people from using this method. Here's a photo of the test mold.

This mold is a double sized mold compared to our regular molds so the price would be double as well. It would count as two molds when shipping but would also count as two molds when figuring the discount. The double sized mold allows me to fit extra pieces in the wasted space between two normal sized molds.

I also found that I had some wasted space around the outside edge. If I put the pieces closer to the edge, I can sacrifice four of the 1/2 blocks and add three full blocks onto the mold.

For this project I only used the half blocks to fill in under the full blocks (where you wouldn't see them) and had a bunch left over.

As for the half and quarter blocks, these would be used if you wanted to end the grid in a straight edge without sanding or cutting. This shows an example of their use.


For those not familiar with the casting process, you pour plaster of Paris (I used dental stone) into the molds, scrape off the top and 25 minutes later you pop out the blocks.


Here's a photo of the unpainted hill.


To make the straight cliff edges not so "hexy" I used pliers to break off some of the sharp edges.


I thought the really deep cracks looked a bit unnatural so I used putty (wood filler) in them hoping it would help.  I've circled some of these on the photo below.


This photo compares the bare rock tiles stacked against the ones filled with putty.  I'm not sure that either looks that good. I may have to work out the technique of filling in order for it to look better. Perhaps smearing in the putty and using a toothbrush to remove the excess from the surface. Maybe I'll have to rethink the method of making the rock faces in general.


In all I have mixed feelings about how this came out. This sucker weighs three pounds so it won't be moving around on your game table. The process of casting, filling and painting is not difficult for the average hobbyist (with the proper instructions of course). However, it is time consuming and messy - just like any scratch-building projects.

Please let me know what your thoughts are about this project. Is it worth it?  How can it be improved?
Thanks,
Bruce Hirst

[DarkSpade]

Not sure if I'd personally ever use this to make terrain(I've got a lot of heroscape terrain already), but for that purpose these look pretty good.   I don't think the cliff sides are going to be a problem unless someone decides to build a really tall cliff side.

On the other hand, if these were thinner, they'd make great bases.  For something like that I'd be looking into finding room in the budget to pick up a mold(or two if you also did different styles like city).

[Luriael]

I just think that is gorgeous Bruce! The stuff that you used, is it readily available? My fear is that plaster of Paris can be so brittle, is your stuff sturdier?

Honestly, I'm not yet ready to invest in terrain yet but if your international shipping isn't too punitive, I'll be a customer soon enough!

[CranstonSnord]

A variety of stronger plasters are available worldwide, under different brand names. Most dentists use some kind of high-strength plaster for taking tooth impressions (in the US, Merlin's Magic and Excalibur are two such examples). I personally use Hydrostone, which is 8 or 10 times as strong as plaster of paris. I literally can not break a half-inch-thick piece, bare-handed.

References for various countries can be found on Bruce's forums: http://hirstarts.yuku.com/topic/365/Where-to-find-plaster-resin-and-other-casting-products#.VDoMeBbpfCY

[brucehirst]

There is also a reviews page of overseas casting products at http://www.hirstarts.com/casting/overseas.html.

I think the results from this test are probably good enough to go ahead and make the final molds for 1.5", 1.75" and 2" hexes. This will probably take me about 3-4 weeks to do the sculpting and make the mold masters. Making anything larger than 2" would be too difficult to fit anything useful on a mold. I don't think anyone would buy a $68.00 mold for two 3" hexes.

Now, I do have several questions for you all. First, I want to find out the number of people and the sizes they are interested in. Please let me know:

1. Would you use a 1" hex mold?
2. Would you use a 1.25" hex mold?
3. Would you use a 1.5" hex mold?
4. Would you use a 1.75" hex mold?
5. Would you use a 2" hex mold?

If I get no responses to certain sizes then I probably will not make that size.

Now for the next set of questions. Some have indicated that they would like to have hex bases. Others would simply like to enhance the Heroscape tiles they already have with a thinner layer of real rock. Some may also want to cast up a large rock slab without doing the whole "hill" thing. So the questions I have are:

1. How useful would another mold be if the rock hexes were only 1/4" thick?

2. If I did make a 1/4" thick version of this rock mold, would the edges of each tile be straight (so you could make a large rock slab and still see the hex pattern), or would you prefer all the edges to be broken up and more decorative? Or would the edges be similar to what you see above (some broken on different sides and some straight)?

Please let me know.
Bruce Hirst