Clan Invasion Kickstarter Discussion 5, Green Eyeshade Edition

[Greatclub]

I disagree with this. There are BattleMechs designed centuries apart and in completely separated cultures. There shouldn't consistency in design between Inner Sphere and Clan machines or Star League and 3rd Succession War designs. TRO:2750 had consistency in design for that era: The golden age of the Star League. The designs had a 1950's vibe to them. Most notable are the fins on most of them. This transferred to the "lost" Star League designs introduced in the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook. It made that era of designs unique, and a consistency across the entire line would lose this. You used to be able to tell a Clan OmniMech from an Inner Sphere BattleMech even if you had no idea what they were. From what I've seen of the redesigns, the flavor is being lost.

In theory I agree with you. In practice, "are these from the same game" does not sell mini boxes.

 

[Daryk]

To be fair, the original Marauder II had a fake autocannon on the back and a large laser in a chin turret instead.

Ah, right... mixed up versions in my head.  Thanks for setting me straight!  :thumbsup:

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The large laser was in a chin turret?

[Daryk]

Yep.  It actually looked pretty good, I thought.

[Lorcan Nagle]

The large laser was in a chin turret?

The Marauder II art in the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook has a chin turret and the fluff states the laser is mounted there.

[marauder648]

I'm happy with the new look Marauder II, sure it could be a bit more Marauder-e but otherwise its fine. The original model was horrific. It was a Marauder with longer legs, so it stuck its ass out backwards, with dinky little wings strapped to the sides that ALWAYS fell off. And the mech ALWAYS fell over onto its ass because it was grossly imbalanced and even putting a 2p piece under it didn't help. As for the whole 'reinforced', bulking up the superstructure and internals to make it heavier would probably result in a bigger and different looking Mech.

For the most part, the Kickstarter has tried to stay true to the original art and rough designs, but made it so it looks like the Mech's wouldn't shear their legs in half or have a hip joint somewhere where a human's upper intestines would be. Where they've been more radical is with Mech's that needed it, Bishop Steiner's lovely take on the Mercury for example, saved a Mech that NEEDED work as the original one was 'where's its cockpit? Does it have a hip?' and I'll assume that the King Crab is based on the MWO/MW-5/B-tech game version rather than the butt ugly hubcab going :D

This was BADLY needed for the IS Mechs that were NOT the Unseens, yes Loose's art is iconic and helped make the setting, but its aged badly and a lot of the stuff he drew looks like it would fall over in a stiff breeze or rip itself apart if it dared twist the torso.

The Clan Mech's, the 3050 one's needed updating and more nice, lovely details, the 3058 ones like the Black Lanner etc, they needed serious work in most cases whereas some didn't, the Battle Cobra and Supernova for example are fine and are more a case of needing updating to modern standards. But a case in point, I'll challenge anyone to tell me that this is passable art now in this era where things live and die on first impressions, and where good models, good art help sell a game as much as its ruleset or writing.



the re-do is much closer to the TCG art



Which looks WAY better than the original design.

[Ruger]

I'm happy with the new look Marauder II, sure it could be a bit more Marauder-e but otherwise its fine. The original model was horrific. It was a Marauder with longer legs, so it stuck its ass out backwards, with dinky little wings strapped to the sides that ALWAYS fell off. And the mech ALWAYS fell over onto its ass because it was grossly imbalanced and even putting a 2p piece under it didn't help. As for the whole 'reinforced', bulking up the superstructure and internals to make it heavier would probably result in a bigger and different looking Mech.

I have two or three of the Unseen minis for the Marauder II, including a hefty lead one, and mine have never fallen over (unless tipped) and the wings have never fallen off (of course, one never had wings, so it doesn’t count).

Ruger

[marauder648]

you was one of the lucky ones :) Mine always fell over, same with the Catapult with its long boi legs.

[Ruger]

you was one of the lucky ones :) Mine always fell over, same with the Catapult with its long boi legs.

Never happened with my long legged Catapult either.

Of course, I use the metal hex bases on them too.

Ruger

[Cache]

The original model was horrific. It was a Marauder with longer legs, so it stuck its ass out backwards, with dinky little wings strapped to the sides that ALWAYS fell off.

The legs were the exact same length as the Marauder. The only difference is thicker armor plates on a spot or two.

Never had a tipping issue with either Marauder or the original Catapult. I use standard metal hex bases from Partha/IWM.

[Fear Factory]

I disagree with this. There are BattleMechs designed centuries apart and in completely separated cultures. There shouldn't consistency in design between Inner Sphere and Clan machines or Star League and 3rd Succession War designs. TRO:2750 had consistency in design for that era: The golden age of the Star League. The designs had a 1950's vibe to them. Most notable are the fins on most of them. This transferred to the "lost" Star League designs introduced in the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook. It made that era of designs unique, and a consistency across the entire line would lose this. You used to be able to tell a Clan OmniMech from an Inner Sphere BattleMech even if you had no idea what they were. From what I've seen of the redesigns, the flavor is being lost.

I agree with this. You hit the nail right on the head with this.

I would also expand on this, now the designs look like they come from the same manufacturer. There were obvious similarities in design, but you could tell that they were designed years apart and by different companies. The Clans even lost their feel... being able to pack more things efficiently in a compact and sleek design. Now it's all just chonk for the sake of chonk.

But yeah, we're all grogs.

[Cache]

Yes and why it seemed like a xerox to me when I first saw it in TRO: 3050 and even more so when I found the original art from the Wolf Dragoons book.

You don't like the original. Fair enough. Nobody is required to like them all. The changing from fitting the lore to not fitting brothers me.

This is why I don't like talking BT aesthetics, everyone has their own taste and I don't want to dunk on anyone persons preference but with so many pro-unseen on this forum, I though it was important to say some of us appreciate a squeal mech actually distinctive.

There's nothing wrong with a discussion of tastes. I'm making my preference known, just like you.

It still screams Marauder but it doesn't look like someone just 3D printed a larger Mad-3R and that matters when you are trying to get knew players to the table.

Problem is, it looks like someone modified a Supernova, not a Marauder. I brought this up on his Patreon and I got a, "Wait until you see what I do to the Supernova!"

That's a problem for me. Make the Marauder II a heavier Marauder and the Supernova a Supernova. There are plenty of Marauder clones out there, we didn't need another to satisfy the artist's need to think outside the box.

3055 Upgrade style work was what I hoped for at the start of this, but we're getting Wizkids MW:DA style changes instead. (...at worst.  Project Phoenix part 2 at best.)

[Colt Ward]

I agree with this. You hit the nail right on the head with this.

I would also expand on this, now the designs look like they come from the same manufacturer. There were obvious similarities in design, but you could tell that they were designed years apart and by different companies. The Clans even lost their feel... being able to pack more things efficiently in a compact and sleek design. Now it's all just chonk for the sake of chonk.

I will agree a bit . . . but there are also two outside factors.  First, they are offering official designs for mini production one a LOT of designs that were put out by MWO . . . and while MWO images are not table top BT, it goes back to the recognition angle to for the sales synergy.  I would imagine (b/c I do NOT KNOW) they have to balance what a design looks like 3 ways.  They will be different than MWO designs but they have to be recognizable from the video game versions, the new designs should resemble the best parts of the art they are replacing, and to a lesser degree should show a path to the Phoenix art designs.

Look at fighter and MBT designs across national lines . . . they look a lot the same- form follows function.

[Cache]

In theory I agree with you. In practice, "are these from the same game" does not sell mini boxes.

Judging by the popularity of the Clans to date, that sort of diversity does sell mini boxes. Especially with BattleTech prominently displayed on them.

[Wrangler]

Which looks WAY better than the original design.

The way its drawn, makes the Black Lanner smaller. Like he driving medium or light.

[Fear Factory]

The black lanner is a medium.

[Fear Factory]

I will agree a bit . . . but there are also two outside factors.  First, they are offering official designs for mini production one a LOT of designs that were put out by MWO . . . and while MWO images are not table top BT, it goes back to the recognition angle to for the sales synergy.  I would imagine (b/c I do NOT KNOW) they have to balance what a design looks like 3 ways.  They will be different than MWO designs but they have to be recognizable from the video game versions, the new designs should resemble the best parts of the art they are replacing, and to a lesser degree should show a path to the Phoenix art designs.

Look at fighter and MBT designs across national lines . . . they look a lot the same- form follows function.

You pretty much made my point. Things are becoming way to similar.

[Wrangler]

The black lanner is a medium.

Ok light, the guy's cockpit like Torso mounted way it done.

[Sartris]

it's still a better starting point than the TRO

[Colt Ward]

You pretty much made my point. Things are becoming way to similar.

But that is what happens to mature technology- the difference between Russian, US, German, French and Brit tanks is not that much compared to what it was like in the 30s & 40s.  Form follows function, you will have little minor differences- exactly how far back the turret is, angle of sloping armor plates, where equipment gets out of the armored shell, etc.

IMO part of what people say is making them 'way too similar' is that we are getting a unprecedented level of detail in the mech.  Its no longer smooth armor plates with a few seams but rather we get a whole lot more detail breaking up what before were single pieces.  Take the armor over the ankle of the Timber Wolf, Mad Dog or Catapult- maybe the Marauder too . . . they were single complete rounded pieces with no seams.  Now you have several different lines breaking up that single location.

[Cache]

Ok light, the guy's cockpit like Torso mounted way it done.

It's a very well proportioned cockpit actually. And placed exactly where it should be for that style of body.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, its WWII bomber nose style like the Timber Wolf . . . I actually LIKE the current Black Lanner mini and its not one I will be replacing any time soon.  Sort of like the Supernova & Nova Cat mini though as another player said the Nova Cat mini is sort of small for the current line's scale.  Or to put it another way, it scales properly next to the overly small Dire Wolf.

[Fear Factory]

If the clan designs looked sleek, it would help. They shouldn't be chunky like spheroid designs.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Why not?  Most of those chunky IS designs predate the Exodus by a substantial margin and many went on the Exodus.  The Clans didn't design their mechs all at once or in a vacuum.

[Fear Factory]

Clan technology is supposed to be compact and light by nature. I mean, as an example, muscle is heavier than fat, and fat is more than double it's size. Clan tech would be muscle.

[Colt Ward]

Since when?  FF armor, EndoSteel, and XL engines get their benefits by being bulkier than standard materials.  IS equivalents are even bulkier, but a XL engine takes up 6 more crits, the armor & structure each take 7 . . .

To me the big difference is that more of the Clan mechs are chicken walkers vs humanoids for the IS/SL.  Over half the original Omnis are chicken walkers IIRC.  How many of the 3025 designs were?

[SteelRaven]

People complained that we had heavy mechs in different sizes throwing off the 'scale.' It's a little late to say two different heavy mechs 'should' be different sizes after all this effort to get everything to same bulk.

[Fear Factory]

Since when?  FF armor, EndoSteel, and XL engines get their benefits by being bulkier than standard materials.  IS equivalents are even bulkier, but a XL engine takes up 6 more crits, the armor & structure each take 7 . . .

You answered your own question. Clan tech takes up less space and weight than Inner Sphere tech. It's more refined. Their XL engine, FF, and ES, is much better than the Star League counterpart. Real world example: Today I provided phone assistance to someone who replaced an old alarm switch that was 3 times the size of the new switch. They do the same thing, only one is far less bulky. You could say the same for a PC processor of the 80's compared with one from the 90's. This is how I see Clan tech, and I don't see the new designs accomplishing this.

[Sartris]

based on my unscientific data collection over the past several years, this project is giving the people what they want

what do they want?

C H O N K

[glitterboy2098]

If the clan designs looked sleek, it would help. They shouldn't be chunky like spheroid designs.

i actually think the opposite. the clans, being planned economies and semi-pragmatists in terms of military designs, should probably have blockier and chunkier designs. aesthetics for the sake of aesthetics are waste, and the clans are supposed to abhor waste. (protomechs being stylized monsters being a good example of how far most clans have fallen from their professed ideals)

the IS though, have mechs designed by private or semi-private companies, to appeal to nobles and procurrment officers in competition with other companies. aesthetics would thus be a big part of how these companies secure non-performance based advantages over their competition in the selection process. as such inner sphere mechs should have cosmetic features that appeal to the buyer, be it animalistic features, intimidating presence, or just sleek lines that make the mechs stand out.