Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 190306 times)

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #90 on: 08 June 2018, 14:10:45 »
So with our GM allowing the Marian Hegemony, which True Tanker requested, I see us at 4...

marcussmythe
Smegish
Maingunnery
True Tanker


Cryhavok?  Starfox?  Marauder?  Yall all seemed to have an interest...

Starfox1701

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 521
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #91 on: 08 June 2018, 17:07:39 »
I'd love too but I have no pc, I'm working from a cell. I can parooze pdfs but any design work I do is long form and I don't have the free time for that. Sorry

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #92 on: 08 June 2018, 22:42:00 »
So I've given a few more thoughts to the tech progression and available stuff for purchase.

- I'm going to swap around armour types as discussed earlier. The sequence will be Ferro-Aluminum(on fighters/DropShips) > Improved Ferro-Aluminum (on WarShips) > Ferro-Carbide > Lamellor Ferro-Carbide.

- I have a full tech list now. With the exception of the juggled armours and the fire-control techs that have no date I can find, everything is introduced within 60 years of its canon introduction date. (As stated previously, I won't be giving details here to avoid metagaming, but if you pull out TM/TO you can figure out most of it).

- Drop Shuttles are a tech that's a little too weird to include from the get-go. Instead, I'll fluff it that they're small DropShips. Medium and large DropShips will be tech unlocks, with timing based on the invention of spheroid and aerodyne DropShips. As such, docking collars are available at game start.

- I think my previous list was tracking too many small units. Fighters will be reduced to standard and advanced(i.e., XLFE designs), small craft are merged, and the different DropShip roles are merged - there'll be enough of them that you can use carrier or ground-attack models as needed for any given operation, so we'll assume that they swap as needed. (Feel free to give me doctrine on which ones your admirals like to use, however - I will definitely keep that in mind)

- Here's the full list of purchasable items that I've come up with thus far. Items requiring an unlock are in italics:
  • Fighters: Standard $5M, Improved $15M (requires XL Fusion Engines)
  • Small Craft: $10M
  • DropShips: Light(12 fighters) $300M, Medium(36 fighters) $500M (requires Spheroid DropShip), Large(108 fighters) $1,000M (requires Aerodyne DropShip)
  • JumpShips: $500M
  • WarShips/Stations: As StratOps costs, rounded to nearest $1M. Double for lead unit of a class, +50% for lead unit of a variant sub-class.
  • Castle Brian: $5,000M (requires Castles Brian)
  • Shipyards: $10,000M times the new level to upgrade a shipyard one level. Halve this cost if a yard of equal or larger size already exists in the same system.
  • Maintenance: Baseline expense is 1% of each active WarShip's base cost per year (=10% per turn). Players can pay more or less as desired. (Note that the out-of-production penalty has been removed)
  • Research: Each $1M is one ballot. The winner gets the new tech 10 years before everyone else.
  • Anything else you can think of: Talk to me, and we'll see what we can do.

For Castles Brian and stations, I'll only track them system-by-system in shipyard systems - when you build new ones, tell me if they're going to a shipyard system or into the general supply. Ones not allocated to shipyard systems will simply be kept as a general count for your nation as a whole, and I'll assume that they're allocated sensibly(border worlds, large commercial hubs, major factory complexes, etc.)


Starfox1701

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 521
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #94 on: 09 June 2018, 12:05:45 »
Suggestion Ferro Aluminum is Ferro Fiberous for fighters. Considering having advanced armor for asf available to early could be somewhat disruptive make it available for Dropships first then unlock it for fighters some time after ifa comes online.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #95 on: 09 June 2018, 13:35:23 »
So I've given a few more thoughts to the tech progression and available stuff for purchase.

- I'm going to swap around armour types as discussed earlier. The sequence will be Ferro-Aluminum(on fighters/DropShips) > Improved Ferro-Aluminum (on WarShips) > Ferro-Carbide > Lamellor Ferro-Carbide.

- I have a full tech list now. With the exception of the juggled armours and the fire-control techs that have no date I can find, everything is introduced within 60 years of its canon introduction date. (As stated previously, I won't be giving details here to avoid metagaming, but if you pull out TM/TO you can figure out most of it).

- Drop Shuttles are a tech that's a little too weird to include from the get-go. Instead, I'll fluff it that they're small DropShips. Medium and large DropShips will be tech unlocks, with timing based on the invention of spheroid and aerodyne DropShips. As such, docking collars are available at game start.

- I think my previous list was tracking too many small units. Fighters will be reduced to standard and advanced(i.e., XLFE designs), small craft are merged, and the different DropShip roles are merged - there'll be enough of them that you can use carrier or ground-attack models as needed for any given operation, so we'll assume that they swap as needed. (Feel free to give me doctrine on which ones your admirals like to use, however - I will definitely keep that in mind)

- Here's the full list of purchasable items that I've come up with thus far. Items requiring an unlock are in italics:
  • Fighters: Standard $5M, Improved $15M (requires XL Fusion Engines)
  • Small Craft: $10M
  • DropShips: Light(12 fighters) $300M, Medium(36 fighters) $500M (requires Spheroid DropShip), Large(108 fighters) $1,000M (requires Aerodyne DropShip)
  • JumpShips: $500M
  • WarShips/Stations: As StratOps costs, rounded to nearest $1M. Double for lead unit of a class, +50% for lead unit of a variant sub-class.
  • Castle Brian: $5,000M (requires Castles Brian)
  • Shipyards: $10,000M times the new level to upgrade a shipyard one level. Halve this cost if a yard of equal or larger size already exists in the same system.
  • Maintenance: Baseline expense is 1% of each active WarShip's base cost per year (=10% per turn). Players can pay more or less as desired. (Note that the out-of-production penalty has been removed)
  • Research: Each $1M is one ballot. The winner gets the new tech 10 years before everyone else.
  • Anything else you can think of: Talk to me, and we'll see what we can do.

For Castles Brian and stations, I'll only track them system-by-system in shipyard systems - when you build new ones, tell me if they're going to a shipyard system or into the general supply. Ones not allocated to shipyard systems will simply be kept as a general count for your nation as a whole, and I'll assume that they're allocated sensibly(border worlds, large commercial hubs, major factory complexes, etc.)

1.)  Costs still look low to me on carrier/combat droppers, but as discussed Im not losing sleep over it - the ‘offical’ price for dropships is scary high.

2.)  Im curious to see what everyone does with the design space.

3.)  Id love a 5th player.  Dont know anyone active on these forums, not already involved in the thread, who would be interested, though.  :(

4.)  Logistics.  Obviously, we dont want to play Ledgertech.  That said, may i assume that having cargo space, drop collars for cargo droppers, and/or fleet colliers is a thing that will be felt, in its presence or absence?

Smegish

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 445
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #96 on: 09 June 2018, 16:59:25 »
Will that Light/Med/Large Dropship definition have a weight restriction, or just a limit on how many Aero it can hold?

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #97 on: 09 June 2018, 19:22:01 »
Suggestion Ferro Aluminum is Ferro Fiberous for fighters. Considering having advanced armor for asf available to early could be somewhat disruptive make it available for Dropships first then unlock it for fighters some time after ifa comes online.

I'm less worried here, because players don't need to make fighter or DropShip designs. I can treat it as a mild performance boost, and not worry much about details.

1.)  Costs still look low to me on carrier/combat droppers, but as discussed Im not losing sleep over it - the ‘offical’ price for dropships is scary high.

2.)  Im curious to see what everyone does with the design space.

3.)  Id love a 5th player.  Dont know anyone active on these forums, not already involved in the thread, who would be interested, though.  :(

4.)  Logistics.  Obviously, we dont want to play Ledgertech.  That said, may i assume that having cargo space, drop collars for cargo droppers, and/or fleet colliers is a thing that will be felt, in its presence or absence?

1) In context, a small DS being $300M when a full 3-collar JS is $500M seems reasonable to me. If anything, I always thought of the DS as being cheaper relative to JS than that.

2) Agreed.

3) Given one of the players is playing Periphery, we'd need 6 to fill all the houses. I think we should just go ahead once I get everything ready, and leave the other empires free for players to jump in if desired.

4) I won't explicitly track cargo, but it is definitely a number I'll pay attention to in designs. Cargo actually matters more in this setting than it would in vanilla, because of how I'm fluffing the fighter strike rules - when a single fighter can carry close to its own weight in capital missiles for anti-WS attacks, you really need to have a lot of cargo if you want to launch a lot of fighter strikes. A ship with minimal cargo can defend a system well enough, or launch a quick attack across a border, but it'll be a disaster if you try to take one on a deep strike without a proper fleet train.

Will that Light/Med/Large Dropship definition have a weight restriction, or just a limit on how many Aero it can hold?

I simplified it, because I don't expect players to construct anything besides WarShips. If you never build a DS and never move ground units explicitly, the only number that matters is the fighter capacity of a carrier-fit DS. If you actually want to build the designs, we'll say 5,000 tons and 20,000 tons - as with most other things in this game aside from WS, feel free to get ambitious if you really want to.

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #98 on: 09 June 2018, 19:54:31 »
Also, given that I'm planning to just go ahead with the players we have, please post your nation preferences below. Here is a list of nations in the era.

Easy difficulty: Terran Hegemony(off-limits)

Normal difficulty: Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Draconis Combine

Hard difficulty: Lyran Commonwealth, Capellan Commonality, Sarna Supremacy

Very Hard difficulty: Rim Worlds Republic, United Hindu Collective, Taurian Concordat, Tikonov Grand Union, Marian Hegemony(anachronistic)

Insane difficulty: Principality of Rasalhague, any single-system pirate kingdom you care to name

Note that any nations which wind up merging(most notably the CC/SS/TGU and the FS/UHC) should probably only have a single human player between them. If two players really want to play two nations in a single set out, one of you will need to bounce to an NPC nation when the merger happens.

Any late-coming players can also take over NPC nations if they want to, but be aware that those NPC nations will perhaps develop in ways you're not a big fan of. We won't start for a few days yet, while I finalize the starting setup in detail, so there's still a bit of time to jump in.

I'm also about to update the top post in this thread with info on everything.

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #99 on: 09 June 2018, 20:54:00 »
To make sure that everyone knows what's available, here's a master technology list. I'll update this every turn, as new technologies come out.

Game Start
Unit Types: WarShip, Space Station, JumpShip, DropShip(small only), Small Craft, Aerospace Fighter, Atmospheric Fighter, Combat Vehicle

Mech-scale weapons: AC/5, AC/2, Machine Gun

WarShip-scale weapons: All NAC sizes, all NL sizes, and Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale/AR-10.

Relevant Support Equipment: Standard Armor, Single Heat Sinks, Standard/Compact/Sub-Compact K-F Drives, Docking Collars, Naval Comm-Scanner Suite, Grav Decks, Cargo(all types), Crew Quarters(all types), Unit Bays(for all existent unit types), Escape Pods/Lifeboats, Naval Repair Facilities, Naval Tug Adaptor, Energy Storage Battery

Notes:
- Standard-scale weapons attacking WarShips are much less effective than in standard rules. Instead, fighters can mount capital missiles to their bomb hardpoints to conduct anti-shipping strikes.
- AMS systems(and things used for similar roles, like Machine Guns in the pre-AMS era) are much less effective than in canon rules.
- Bearings-only capital missile launches, tele-operated missiles, and bracket fire are not yet available.
- Drop shuttles are not used(we'll pretend they're the same thing a small DropShips).

Future Technologies
Here is a list of future technologies that will be introduced. These are sorted by canon introduction date(except as noted here, but I've modified the start dates to make it so that you get one new tech per turn. All game introduction dates are within 60 years of canon. Note that some of these techs are technically for Mech-sized equipment, but have been assumed to also allow upgrades to equivalent WarShip-scale equipment as well(Active Probe, CASE, etc.).

Code: [Select]
Ferro-Aluminum 2350
Vehicular Drop Chute 2351
NPPC 2356
SRM 2370
Improved Ferro-Aluminum 2370
Castles Brian 2391
Small/Medium Laser 2400
LRM 2400
Large Laser 2430
Mechs 2443
Naval Gauss 2448
AC/10 2460
PPC 2460
Medium DropShip 2470
CASE 2476
Large DropShip 2480
AC/20 2500
L-F Battery 2529
Double Heat Sink 2567
Ferro-Carbide 2571
Active Probe 2576
XL Fusion Engine 2579
Narc 2587
Gauss Rifle 2590
LB-10X 2595
ECM 2597
Artemis IV 2598
Pulse Lasers 2609
Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 2615
AMS 2617
ER Large Laser 2620
HyperPulse Generators 2629
Chameleon/Null-Sig 2630
UAC/5 2640
Streak SRM 2647
Mobile HPG 2655
LAMs 2688
Caspar Drones 2690
Light Power Armor 2710
Mass Driver 2715
Reinforced Repair Bay 2750
ER PPC 2760
Bearings-Only Launches (not specified)
Bracket Fire (not specified)

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #100 on: 09 June 2018, 22:20:34 »
Okay, in light of information presented:
1.)  Lyran Commonwealth.  I know they are just starting out, bt historically they are an evonimic powerhouse and I like the flavor.  Im willing to have a rougher time of it in the early turns.
2.)  Fed Suns.  Davionista, since back in the day.
3.)  Free Wolds League; cause purple and eagles and and Rome and Greece.
4.)  DC or Cap Com or whatever, if other people really want the first three.

Smegish

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 445
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #101 on: 10 June 2018, 02:26:41 »
Guess my order of preference is:

1) Draconis Combine
2) Lyran Commonwealth
3) Free Worlds League
4) Cappellan Commonality

Maingunnery

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7156
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #102 on: 10 June 2018, 02:53:10 »
1) Free Worlds League
2) Lyran Commonwealth
3) single-system pirate kingdom



ps. If I understand the tech list properly, then we don't have to bother with primitive technology? Just design our units as intro and add extra tech if necessary?
« Last Edit: 10 June 2018, 03:04:59 by Maingunnery »
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

The Society:Fan XTRO & Field Manual
Nebula California: HyperTube Xtreme
Nebula Confederation Ships

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #103 on: 10 June 2018, 04:12:45 »
Sorry i've been a bit quiet, been busy! So whats the idea and stuff? Been out of town and unable to access net properly.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #104 on: 10 June 2018, 05:29:00 »
Sorry i've been a bit quiet, been busy! So whats the idea and stuff? Been out of town and unable to access net properly.

Long story short, you get to play fleet commander to one of the nations, starting in 2350. You'll design the nation's WarShip fleet as well as buying your supporting infrastructure and small units. I'll run the nations through the political and military events of the era, giving you battle reports to show you how your ships are performing in combat against each other and against NPC nations like the Terran Hegemony. You'll take that info and use it to design newer and better units as the timeline progresses and you get access to new technology.

It's more about the design than it is a wargame, as you don't have control over your nation's foreign policy and can't treat it like a 4X game where you gobble up everyone who opposes you. You do control naval doctrine etc., which gives you a lot of operational control, but it's up to the civilian leadership NPCs who the target of your attentions will be. But if you want an excuse to design a whole lot of WarShips with a single overarching purpose, doctrine, and style, this is for you.

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #105 on: 10 June 2018, 05:47:48 »
Sure why not, i'll take over the Taurians if no one else wants them.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #106 on: 10 June 2018, 08:48:08 »
Thats an interesting map.  North East,North West, South-West Inner Sphere Players, and South West and South East Periphery Players.

I hope the NPC empires are active...

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #107 on: 10 June 2018, 10:54:09 »
The NPC empires will be around, though I'll be keeping them as close to canon as practical.

Assuming nobody jumps in to take them over, here's the historical production order for each NPC empire, as derived from Sarna:
Terran Hegemony
In Service:
Dreadnought (960 kt, 3/5, battleship)
Dart (680kt, 2/3, cruiser)
Black Lion I (720kt, 3/5, battlecruiser)
Bonaventure (240kt, 4/6, corvette)
Cruiser (500kt, 4/6, cruiser[obviously])
Lola I (680kt, 4/6, destroyer)
Vigilant (140kt, 3/5, scout)

New Construction:
2350: Quixote (780kt, 2/3, frigate)
2351: Essex I (560kt, 3/5, destroyer)
2368: Monsoon (1.31MT, 2/3, battleship)
2372: Aegis (745kt, 2/3, cruiser)
2407: Tracker (120kt, 4/6, scout)
2432: Vincent (412kt, 4/6, corvette)
2440: Riga (750kt, 3/5, frigate)
2447: Nightwing (100kt, 3/5, scout)
2448: Farragut (1.68MT, 3/5, battleship)
2520: Baron (480kt, 2/3, destroyer)
2531: Avatar (830kt, 3/5, cruiser)
2542: Congress (760kt, 3/5, escort)
2582: Kimagure (780kt, 5/8, cruiser)
2600: Newgrange (2.3MT, 2/3, yardship)
2603: Carrack (300kt, 3/5, transport
2606: Whirlwind (520kt, 4/6, destroyer)
2611: Potemkin (1.51MT, 2/3, transport)
2618: Texas (1.56MT, 3/5, battleship)
2620: Bug-Eye (6100 tons, 5/8, scout)
2622: Lola II (680kt, 4/6, destroyer)
2632: Carson (510kt, 2/3, destroyer)
2645: Naga (540kt, 2/3, destroyer)
2652: McKenna (1.93MT, 3/5, battleship)
2662: Lola III (678kt, 4/6, destroyer)
2668: Cameron (859kt, 2/3, cruiser)
2691: Black Lion II (802kt, 3/5, battlecruiser)
2709: Volga (780kt, 2/3, transport)
2711: Essex II (620kt, 3/5, destroyer)
2727: Luxor (890kt, 3/5, cruiser)
2735: Sovetskii Soyuz (823kt, 2/3, cruiser)
2749: Enterprise (1.6MT, 4/6, carrier) - boondoggle, never used

The SLDF also purchased some Davion I, and possibly other ships.

As a side note, looking at the tech timelines makes me impressed at just how many of these ships are obvious anachronisms - lots of them use things like AC/10 or AMS or DropShip collars decades before they actually existed. We'll just pretend that's not the case in this setting, I guess - if I have enough time to introduce customized versions of these, they'll be fixed up in the process. Also, only one ship seems to actually use drop shuttles, so I feel justified ignoring them.

Federated Suns
2360: Defender (960kt, 5/8, battlecruiser)
2510: Davion I (520kt, 4/6, destroyer)
2542: Congress (760kt, 3/5, frigate)
2552: Davion II (580kt, 4/6, destroyer)
2557: New Syrtis (920kt, 4/6, carrier)
2560: Robinson (400kt, 3/5, transport)
"Pre-2600": Kitty Hawk (unknown stats, carrier) - probably apocryphal

Capellan Confederation
2380: Du Shi Wang (900kt, 3/5, battleship)
2731: Soyal (1.5MT, 6/9, Mass Driver cruiser) - Sarna says 6/10 speed. I don't have the source book, but 6/9 bring rounded up seems more plausible.
Some Essex I and Aegis seem to have been imported from the SLDF when they were obsolete. There's also mention of light escorts, but no stats.

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9902
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #108 on: 10 June 2018, 13:30:03 »
Well looks like Aquillas for me!  >:D

Darn Taurians and stupid Terrans! Getting all the best tech... grumble grumble.  :(

TT
 :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: 10 June 2018, 13:32:53 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #109 on: 11 June 2018, 08:07:56 »
A few minor notes from PM conversations and general reading I've been doing:

- While the shipyard space you have is intended for WarShips, it can also be used for JumpShips if desired. Don't bother building civilian designs(it's a waste of yard space, and I don't want to be bothered tracking them), but if you want an armed JS like the Comitatus, it's perfectly legal.

- There's a rule in canon that you need 10 rounds per launcher, but canon ships don't seem to follow it. I won't require you to either. However, be aware that 10 rounds per launcher is not a whole lot of ammo, and going ammo-light may affect you in combat - e.g., if enemy ships manage to stay at extreme range, your captain will be left with several very unappealing choices about what to do with his firepower. I don't mean to say it's always stupid, but like most ways of compromising on "soft stats", there are ways that it could potentially bite you.

- Feel free to suggest alternate uses for your cash beyond what I've outlined. For example, hiring mercenaries is common and respected in this era, and while there are no WarShip-owning mercenaries, you might want to bulk out your fighter ranks. Also, ships were bought and sold between friendly powers in canon and IRL, so if the Lyran player wants to cause headaches for the FWL player, you might decide to sell some old ships to the Marians. The NPC leadership will get a veto, depending on how friendly your nations actually are and how much of your fleet you're trying to sell, but it is an option. I'm sure you'll come up with a couple more - if you're in doubt, run it by me. I'll try to accommodate you whenever I can manage it and it makes sense.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #110 on: 11 June 2018, 08:40:14 »
Reposting from a PM I set, at Alsadius' request.  Note that some of the questions presented below are already answered above:

Quote
Learned something:

If you double the mass of a ship, you much less than double its cost.  Bigger is (much) cheaper per mass.

This has some interesting knock on effects, but the one that strikes me:

The Star League designs are actually much, much better than I thought.

Its cheaper (as an example) to build 4 ‘roomy hulls’ with 10% or so mass as cargo, than it is to build 4 smaller hulls and a 5th collier to support them on long deployments.

Similarly, its much less expensive than you might think to go from 3/5 to the -exact- same capability on a 5/8.  Its still not cheap... in general each point of thrust coats you 20% of your force - but it might be a cost you can live with.

Final thoughts - Missiles and Rules and Ammo.  Rules say minimum 10 rounds per gun.  Am considering large missile broadsides with 5 ready rounds per launcher.  Math siggests this is more than enough to be decisive.  Lots of ships shot themselvs dry in one engagement, historically.

Final thoughts:  Fighters and Bay doors.  Theres some funny rules that limit launch rates by the number of doors assigned to your fighter bays.  If enforced, there really wont ever be ‘true’ carriers, because it takes hours to launch a strike...since were not playing tactical battles, how do you see that working out?  Could one pay extra for -more- launch doors than the default rules allow?  Certainly ‘cut holes in side of ship’ cannot be lostech...

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #111 on: 11 June 2018, 08:50:27 »
My reply, as posted to PM:

Cost efficiency is an interesting question. You increase the risk of a "golden BB" blowing up your mega-ship, but you also probably get more bang for your buck. Historically, it was mostly the big gun arms race that drove ship sizes up, as they needed more ability to armor their critical sections and carry bigger guns. Once armor stopped being a factor after WW2, ship sizes have stayed basically constant - carriers are big enough to mount a flight deck, frigates and cruisers and destroyers are big enough to mount a helipad, a radar, and some missiles, and subs are big enough to mount their engine and weapon systems. There's also the problem of one big ship being in one place at a time - one McKenna might beat two Lolas in a fight, but if you send two Lolas after two different systems, one is going to get through. In a raid-heavy environment like 1SW, that might mean your big ships come out badly.

Re fleet supply concerns, you can also use civilian JumpShips and DropShips for that, which are probably cheaper per ton carried than a Soyuz. More vulnerable, of course, but it's a trade-off that poorer nations might be happy to make. It also means they can act as trade ships in peacetime, which helps your economy. I suspect most houses use a mix - a few cargo-heavy ships for deep strikes, some armed merchants as a fleet train, cargo DropShips to give the fleet extra legs, and vacuuming up every merchantman you can find when a war starts.

Re ammo loads, the rules do say minimum 10 rounds per gun, but I won't enforce that - canonical ship designs don't(e.g., look at the missile loads on the AR-10s on the McKenna), and ships that want to shoot themselves dry are fine by me.

Re bay doors, it's less of a concern than you might think, unless you do something truly insane like the Enterprise that mounts almost a thousand fighters. IIRC, the rules are two fighters per door per turn, and a WS can mount a couple dozen doors pretty easily. You only need one or two for the cargo bay, so you can have the ability to launch a few squadrons a turn. RL carriers only have four or so catapults, and they can't all be used at once - they still get good-sized strike forces into the air when needed, because you spend the necessary time getting your forces into the sky and then start the attack.

Given we're not playing tactical battles, I doubt it'll come up much in practice. if someone designs a ship with 100+ fighters and one door they run the risk of losing a fight from fighter traffic jams, but I doubt anyone will ever do that given that doors are free and fairly numerous.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #112 on: 11 June 2018, 09:24:21 »
Posting designs:

Where are you people getting your lovely, formatted layouts that you can post smoothly to the forums?  No matter how much time I spend fiddling, I cant make it work right - to the point that I'm considering doing TRO entries in a word document and posting that, but thats hard for people to read, here.

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #113 on: 11 June 2018, 09:58:07 »
On Cryhavoc's sheet, there's a tab labelled "TRO Workup". Copy each of the blocks from that into the forum thread, with a couple line breaks between each, and put it inside {code}{/code} tags so that it's not two pages long.

(I used to hand-format mine to look better and have everything line up neatly, but that's a pain and doesn't add much, so I stopped bothering)

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1840
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #114 on: 11 June 2018, 10:02:16 »
On Cryhavoc's sheet, there's a tab labelled "TRO Workup". Copy each of the blocks from that into the forum thread, with a couple line breaks between each, and put it inside {code}{/code} tags so that it's not two pages long.

(I used to hand-format mine to look better and have everything line up neatly, but that's a pain and doesn't add much, so I stopped bothering)

As an additional note, on the TRO work-up section, you'll need to add in cargo bays/doors by hand.

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #115 on: 11 June 2018, 10:11:05 »
As an additional note, on the TRO work-up section, you'll need to add in cargo bays/doors by hand.

Or add the following formula to cell V2 on the TRO Workup tab:
Code: [Select]
=IFERROR(FILTER(EquipedName,(EquipedType="Equipment")+(EquipedType="Bay")),"None")
This doesn't give the number of doors per bay, however - you'll need to add that by hand. It also assumes no mixed-type bays, no shared doors, etc., so it's a bit less flexible than the actual rules are.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #116 on: 11 June 2018, 10:21:53 »
Yet Another Stupid Question:

How are we handling Refits?  Because given the tech improvements, I foresee a lot of desire to refit, but on the gripping hand, figuring out how to price refits seems difficult to me.  Ripping out AC/5s for PPC emplacements should be a trivial cost on a warship scale.  Stripping the hull plating would be a step up from that.  Replacing Naval Missile Launchers with Naval PPCs is getting expensive, and then there is replacing engines - which (I would think) starts turning into 'not worth it'.

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #117 on: 11 June 2018, 10:36:21 »
Yet Another Stupid Question:

How are we handling Refits?  Because given the tech improvements, I foresee a lot of desire to refit, but on the gripping hand, figuring out how to price refits seems difficult to me.  Ripping out AC/5s for PPC emplacements should be a trivial cost on a warship scale.  Stripping the hull plating would be a step up from that.  Replacing Naval Missile Launchers with Naval PPCs is getting expensive, and then there is replacing engines - which (I would think) starts turning into 'not worth it'.

Ooh, good one. I hadn't thought of that. I have a couple ideas off the top of my head:

1) Add up the costs of all the new gear and multiply it by something to represent the refit - triple it, perhaps. Each refit takes one year in a shipyard of appropriate size(so you can do five refits in the same time as one new build)

2) Create a variant model(complete with the 50% of the ship's unit cost being spent on miscellaneous design expenses), and then refit ships to the new model for only the price difference. Again, refits take one year.

I think I like #2 better(having it as an explicit variant will make it easier to track, and the big up-front cost discourages doing it lightly) but it seems like it could be a bit punitive. That said, given that the most common refit will probably involve using new armor types, perhaps this is cheaper than it ought to be - I don't think any RL ships ever replaced their armour like that, even in the era of rapid advance in the late 19th century, so it's got to be tough. IDK.

Any suggestions?

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #118 on: 11 June 2018, 10:53:00 »
Ooh, good one. I hadn't thought of that. I have a couple ideas off the top of my head:

1) Add up the costs of all the new gear and multiply it by something to represent the refit - triple it, perhaps. Each refit takes one year in a shipyard of appropriate size(so you can do five refits in the same time as one new build)

2) Create a variant model(complete with the 50% of the ship's unit cost being spent on miscellaneous design expenses), and then refit ships to the new model for only the price difference. Again, refits take one year.

I think I like #2 better(having it as an explicit variant will make it easier to track, and the big up-front cost discourages doing it lightly) but it seems like it could be a bit punitive. That said, given that the most common refit will probably involve using new armor types, perhaps this is cheaper than it ought to be - I don't think any RL ships ever replaced their armour like that, even in the era of rapid advance in the late 19th century, so it's got to be tough. IDK.

Any suggestions?

I like #2.  I almost said we should charge a multiplier for the new equipment, but then I considered the fact that people refitted ships into carrying L-F Batteries.  If you MULTIPLY the cost of a L-F Battery Refit by even 2 or 3 times, especially on a ship with multiple docking collars, it will quickly become cheaper to build new ships and straight up scrap the old ones.

What other questions/thoughts do people have, and what do we lack of being ready to start?

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #119 on: 11 June 2018, 10:58:53 »
I need to create the starting situations for each player - beginning shipyards and beginning income. Other than that, I think I can do everything else as we go.

If someone is feeling really ambitious, a list of plausible shipyard locations for each power (including CC and FS) would be really appreciated. I'm already happy with the DC yards, so no need to work on those.
« Last Edit: 11 June 2018, 11:29:12 by Alsadius »