Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 192474 times)

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #240 on: 17 June 2018, 12:07:55 »
There in universe reason for the lack of house ships at this point was that at first no one had enough to make real naval battles an attractive thing considering the cost and second after the Aries convention everyone focused on ground battles to the exclusion of all else. This created an artificial political situation that I don't believe would actually persist in real life. Naval interdiction of attacking forces is just too useful.

Kiviar

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #241 on: 17 June 2018, 13:58:54 »
Hi, I'm the friend that Alsadius dragooned in to taking over the Federated Suns.

I've put together two warships for my first turn.

In the first half of the 24th century the ideal of maneuver warfare gripped the military planners of the fledgling Federated Suns. With larger and more industrially advanced neighbors it was understood that to survive any large-scale interstellar war the Federated Suns must be able to, 1) disrupt any hostile power's command and logistical infrastructure so that it becomes difficult for them to mount any consolidated action,  and 2) hit the enemy with pin-point strikes with maximal power without being drawn in to a protracted battle.

To enact this theory, the newly-formed AFFS commissioned the design of two classes of warship

First off the Albion-class frigate:
 
Built to be fast enough to outrun anything it can't kill, the Albion class of frigates were designed primarily as raiders. Its armament consisted of a powerful array of 6 class 20 naval autocannons mounted in the nose, as well as a pair on either side. The Albion was designed to win its fights as quickly as possible from outside the effective weapon range of most dropships. To protect against lighter threats the Albion also mounted an impressive array of anti-fighter weapons, as well as a single squadron of aerospace fighters.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Albion-class frigate
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $7,088,697,600.00
Magazine Cost: $38,635,000.00
BV2: 51,268

Mass: 400,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
10 Naval AC 20
64 AC 5
39 Machine Gun (IS)

Mass: 400,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 120,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 5
Maximum: 8
Controls: 1,000.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (10 Integrity) 181,000.00
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 50.00
Structural Integrity: 150 60,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 534 Single
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10372 points 4,231.98
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 480 pts Standard 1,200.00
Fore: 120
Fore-Left/Right: 95/95
Aft-Left/Right: 90/90
Aft: 80

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 25 175.00
Life Boats: 0.00

Crew And Passengers:
26 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 182.00
99 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 693.00
28 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 196.00
12 Bay Personnel 0.00
2 1st Class Passengers 20.00
10 2nd Class Passengers 70.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
6 Naval AC 20 Nose 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
4 AC 5 Nose 4 20 (2-C) 32.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 8 (0.8-C) 2.00
10 AC 5 FR 10 50 (5-C) 80.00
5 Machine Gun (IS) FR 10 (1-C) 2.50
10 AC 5 FL 10 50 (5-C) 80.00
5 Machine Gun (IS) FL 10 (1-C) 2.50
2 Naval AC 20 LBS 120 400 (40-C) 5,000.00
5 AC 5 LBS 5 25 (2.5-C) 40.00
5 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 10 (1-C) 2.50
2 Naval AC 20 RBS 120 400 (40-C) 5,000.00
5 AC 5 RBS 5 25 (2.5-C) 40.00
5 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 10 (1-C) 2.50
10 AC 5 AR 10 50 (5-C) 80.00
5 Machine Gun (IS) AR 10 (1-C) 2.50
10 AC 5 AL 10 50 (5-C) 80.00
5 Machine Gun (IS) AL 10 (1-C) 2.50
10 AC 5 Aft 10 50 (5-C) 80.00
5 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 10 (1-C) 2.50

Ammo Rounds
Naval AC 20 Ammo 1600
AC 5 Ammo 1000
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 2000

And secondly the Galahad-class heavy cruiser

Designed as the 'hammer' of the new Federated Suns Navy, the Galahad-class, much like its smaller cousin the Albion, was designed around the concept of speed and applied firepower. Similarly to the Albion the Galahad's main firepower also comes primarily from a nose-mounted array of autocannons. 8 class 40 naval autocannons allow the Galahad to obliterate the armour on any contemporary warship in short order. However, should the ship find itself in a less ideal position, the ship's sides bristle with class 20 and class 35 naval autocannons as well. 2 squadrons of fighters, 12 capital-class missile launchers and a wide array of anti-fighter ballistic weapons round out the Galahad's armament allowing it to strike, and incapacitate threats at nearly any range.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Galahad-class heavy cruiser
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $10,787,586,000.00
Magazine Cost: $115,190,000.00
BV2: 115,920

Mass: 900,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
8 Naval AC 40
12 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
22 AC 5
48 Machine Gun (IS)
10 Naval AC 20
12 Naval AC 35


Class/Model/Name: Galahad-class heavy-cruiser
Mass: 900,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 216,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 2,250.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (19 Integrity) 407,250.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 75.00
Structural Integrity: 140 126,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 1990 Single 1,288.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 1008 pts Standard 2,520.00
Fore: 200
Fore-Left/Right: 192/192
Aft-Left/Right: 172/172
Aft: 164

Dropship Capacity: 3 3,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 0.00
Medium: 1 100.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 50 350.00
Life Boats: 0.00

Crew And Passengers:
47 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 329.00
178 Crew in Steerage Quarters 890.00
54 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 270.00
39 Bay Personnel 0.00
1 1st Class Passengers 10.00
10 2nd Class Passengers 70.00
10 Steerage Passengers 50.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 Naval AC 40 Nose 1080 3200 (320-C) Medium-C 36,000.00
4 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Nose 80 160 (16-C) 600.00
2 AC 5 Nose 2 10 (1-C) 16.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 12 (1.2-C) 3.00
3 Naval AC 20 FR 180 600 (60-C) 7,500.00
2 AC 5 FR 2 10 (1-C) 16.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) FR 12 (1.2-C) 3.00
3 Naval AC 20 FL 180 600 (60-C) 7,500.00
2 AC 5 FL 2 10 (1-C) 16.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) FL 12 (1.2-C) 3.00
6 Naval AC 35 RBS 720 2100 (210-C) 24,000.00
4 AC 5 RBS 4 20 (2-C) 32.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 12 (1.2-C) 3.00
6 Naval AC 35 LBS 720 2100 (210-C) 24,000.00
4 AC 5 LBS 4 20 (2-C) 32.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 12 (1.2-C) 3.00
2 Naval AC 20 AR 120 400 (40-C) 5,000.00
2 AC 5 AR 2 10 (1-C) 16.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) AR 12 (1.2-C) 3.00
2 Naval AC 20 AL 120 400 (40-C) 5,000.00
2 AC 5 AL 2 10 (1-C) 16.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) AL 12 (1.2-C) 3.00
8 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Aft 160 320 (32-C) 1,200.00
4 AC 5 Aft 4 20 (2-C) 32.00
6 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 12 (1.2-C) 3.00

Ammo Rounds Mass Equipment
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 144 7,200.00 None
Naval AC 40 Ammo 320 384.00
naval ac 20 ammo 640 256.00
AC 5 Ammo 2000 100.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 4000 20.00
Naval AC 35 Ammo 480 480.00


Budget: $90B
Upgrades:
Delevan upgrade (3>4): $40B

Design:
Galahad R&D: $10.787B
Albion R&D: $7.088B

Construction:
1x Galahad: $10.787B
2x Albion: 14.176
6x DropShip: $1.8B
50x Small Craft: $0.5B
800x fighter: $4B
Research: $862M
« Last Edit: 17 June 2018, 16:38:18 by Kiviar »

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #242 on: 17 June 2018, 14:15:13 »
Turn 1: 2350-2359

Player Turns:
Lyran Commonwealth: Budget $80B.
Free Worlds League: Budget $100B.
Draconis Combine: Budget $100B.
Marian Hegemony: Budget $10B.
Federated Suns: Budget $90B.

NPC Turns:
Terran Hegemony: Budget $750B.
United Hindu Collective: Budget $20B.
Capellan Commonality: Budget $25B.
Sarna Supremacy: Budget $25B.
Duchy of Liao: Budget $15B.
Sian Commonwealth: Budget $10B.
St. Ives Mercantile League: Budget $10B.
Tikonov Grand Union: Budget $5B.
Rim Worlds Republic: Budget $20B.
Taurian Concordat: Budget $10B. (Designs, Budget)
Principality of Rasalhague: Budget $1B.

Astropolitical Summary:
- The Draconis Combine's efforts to pacify the Rasalhague region continue. Significant counter-insurgency efforts are made within the region, but the conflict shows no signs of stopping yet.
- The Sarna Supremacy invades the Tikonov Grand Union in 2351, seeing to capitalize on chaos within the region by attacking Algol and Slocum. By the end of 2352, the Tikonov forces have largely stopped fighting, and a ceasefire is brokered by the Capellans. The Sarna Supremacy takes control New Aragon in the peace treaty.
- The Federated Suns also take note of the chaos in the Capellan regions, and in 2357 they invade the planet of Bell, demanding Chesterton and Highspire as well. A joint force from Capella, Sarna, and Tikonov counterattack in 2358 to recapture Bell, but the entire civilian population of 15,000 has mysteriously vanished by the time they arrive. In the end, the Federated Suns acquires Chesterton, but its other gains are lost in the peace settlement.
- In 2358, Seluk Tucas is elected Prime Minister of the Capellan Commonality. An aggressive opportunist, he begins attempting to unify the Capellan region under his own leadership, by using a combination of defence pacts and extortion to convince Tikonov to hand over the planet of Algot to his allies in Sarna.

Combat Results:
A note before we start. For each battle, I'll outline a plausible fight that happens this turn, and get a sense of what forces will be dedicated to it. For each side, I'll roll three dice - crew skill, command skill, and luck. Crew skill represents fighter pilot effectiveness, quality of gunnery, and so on. Command skill is about trying to make the battle happen in the way that best suits your forces - a great result might be an ambush, or a lengthy stern chase against a slower enemy with short-ranged weapons. Luck should be obvious. These rolls can be modified depending on maintenance levels, support infrastructure, notable canon personas having an impact, and so on. I'll take it all together, and write up a battle for each.

The only notable space battle during Sarna's invasion of Tikonov happened three days after the invasion fleet appeared at a pirate point Algol. A retired captain vacationing on Algol managed to, by sheer force of personality, scrounge up almost every ship that could fly on the entire planet, hastily converting the one DropShip on ground into an impromptu tanker for his fighters and shuttles, and sending his forces on a roundabout route after the Sarnish JumpShips. Barely escaping detection by the inbound DropShips, they sprang upon the JumpShips which had been left with an escort that didn't bother to scout due to overconfidence on the part of its commander. While the Sarnish forces fought well once they got over their initial surprise, they were badly mauled by the initial missile strike from the ragtag force, and lost two JumpShips and one DropShip outright before the fighters could mount an effective defence. Once the defenders rallied, the Tikonov forces realized they were doomed and attempted to surrender, but according to records from the Sarnish command ship, communication difficulties led to the surrender request not being noticed until nearly the end. Only one Tikonov pilot, a junior police shuttle pilot from the planet's capital, managed to survive the battle. 11 Sarnish fighters were lost, but 21 Tikonov fighters and 13 Tikonov shuttles were destroyed in the process.

---

The Draconis Combine's attempt to clamp down on the insurgency in Rasalhague was mostly fought on the ground, with one notable exception. Unbeknownst to the Dracs, the Rasalhague forces had managed to find a supplier for modern fighters, and had secreted over a dozen wings on Trondheim waiting for their chance to strike at a convoy. They got their chance in November of 2355. A major troop convoy of eight fully loaded JumpShips entered the system at the nadir point, and the Rasalhague fighter flotilla was ready to strike. They attempted to ambush the inbound DropShips about three hours away from the planet, and their navigation and preparation were both superb. Against any other convoy, their attack would have been a glowing success. However, this was not any other convoy. This convoy had the brand-new DCS Kutai escorting it, on its first-ever combat mission. The Kutai's new sensor system detected the inbound fighters, and while the result was actually dismissed as a probable glitch by the duty captain due to the unlikelihood of such a large force being in that place at that time, the warning was sufficient to ensure that their weapons were warming up when the fighters arrived. In the end, that may have been the difference between victory and defeat.

The Kutai's fire was occasionally interrupted by issues with the new equipment, and the point-defence machine guns performed somewhat worse than had been hoped. The DropShip weapons barely got online at all. Conversely the Rasalhague forces performed well for pilots with no combat experience, adjusting targeting solutions on the fly once they realized what the escort they faced was, and nearly managed to overwhelm the Kutai entirely. However, once the machine guns began firing properly, at least two potentially-fatal missiles were shot down in the nick of time. Fighters attempted to fire their on-board cannons into the gaping wounds in the Kutai's frontal armour, but their inexperience began to show here, as their lack of evasive maneuvers meant that many were shot down before their fire could cause significant damage. In the end, only 32 Rasalhague pilots out of 200 survived to surrender, but they destroyed four DropShips and 13 fighters in the process, and came within inches of destroying the Kutai itself.

---

After the Federated Suns moved into the Tikonov Grand Union in 2357, analysts were expecting no major response to the invasion, given how totally the Tikonov forces were routed by the end of 2352. However, an unlikely alliance of Sarna and Capella came to Tikonov's aid by the beginning of 2358. After marshaling their forces of over two dozen JumpShips led by theCCS Qinru Zhe, the combined fleet set out for the world of Highspire to commence the liberation of Tikonov space. However, on their way towards the planet, a Federated Suns JumpShip had snuck away and summoned reinforcements. The FSS Albion jumped to a pirate point some twelve hours ahead of the "Capellan Coalition" fleet, and proceeded to set an ambush. Knowing that no faster ship was in service anywhere, that the Qinru Zhe's primary weaponry was shorter-ranged than his autocannons, and that the raider carried no fighters, the captain of the Albion dictated a combat strategy of maintaining a range just outside effective range for the NAC/30, and trying to hammer the ship to scrap from afar.

Unfortunately, Federated Suns intelligence on the Qinru Zhe was grossly inadequate, and had neglected to understand either the extremely long range of its lasers, the fact that the Capellan ship was just as agile as their own, or the superiority of Capellan sensors. The Capellan captain embraced the long-range fight, and the gunnery of his crew was almost as accurate in combat conditions as it had been in excercises while they were working up. The Albion was hammered by over two dozen hits from naval lasers in the early part of the fight, landing only two hits in reply. The Albion's captain panicked, and sent his meager fighter force on a strike mission to try to allow his ship to escape, but despite valiant efforts by the pilots, the entire strike force was annihilated by defensive fire from the Qinru Zhe. The Albion's doom seemed certain, but at this point the Capellan force's commander broke off the fight due to a distress call from his transport ships(which were engaged in landing on the planet at the time). It was hoped that the Albion had been crippled enough to slow it down and allow for the Qinru Zhe to catch up, but that was not to be - one of the few systems that actually remained undamaged in the fight was the Albion's engines, and by the time that the Qinru Zhe had realized that the Albion was making its escape, it was too far away to overhaul before it could jump out of the system and limp back to base.

Research:
LC: $2,731m
FWL: $1,049m
DC: $2,000m
FS: $862m

TH: $11,480m
UHC: $1,265m
CC: $254m
SS: $900m
TC: $166m
DoL: $306m
SC: $300m
SIML: $538m
TGU: $40m
RWR: $1,400m

TOTAL = $23,291m

I'm not sure if I actually want to keep the winner a secret like I was saying, but I will for now(unless it's a human, of course - check your PMs to see if you won, I'll send out the notice before I post this).

What do you guys think?

Budgets for Turn 2:
Most budgets remain unchanged for the time being. The TGU drops from $5B to $2B due to its hideous losses and damage, while the Sarna Supremacy and Federated Suns each gain $1B to represent their gains in combat.
« Last Edit: 17 June 2018, 18:37:27 by Alsadius »

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #243 on: 17 June 2018, 15:49:59 »
Awesome stuff!  I can only imagine the amount of work that goes into this on your end - thank you in advance.

I would NOT have expected that outcome between the Green and Gold Navies!

Also - I see little in keeping it secret.  Itll be obvious when the turn is posted.
« Last Edit: 17 June 2018, 16:08:46 by marcussmythe »

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #244 on: 17 June 2018, 16:06:28 »
What about my results in the attempted takeovers of the Lothian League and Illyrian Palatinate?

Post 190, two above my budget posting.

TT
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Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #245 on: 17 June 2018, 16:25:05 »
Awesome stuff!  I can only imagine the amount of work that goes into this on your end - thank you in advance.

I would NOT have expected that outcome between the Green and Gold Navies!

Also - I see little in keeping it secret.  Itll be obvious when the turn is posted.

That was a tough one to write. Both sides rolled badly, but the FS commander in particular had a pants-on-head result on the dice, which is why he took bad intel at face value, damn near got his ship shot out from under him before he realized it was wrong, and then panicked and basically murdered his own fighter wing. Still, it felt a bit cruel to kill a ship on turn 1 when we only have a few. The Kutai was saved by the Rasalhaguers simply not having much force(they actually rolled quite well to get as close as they did to killing it), but the Albion could really have gone either way, and I mulled over it for a while before deciding to be merciful.

What about my results in the attempted takeovers of the Lothian League and Illyrian Palatinate?

Post 190, two above my budget posting.

Perhaps I misread you, but that seemed like a statement of policy, not an actual military campaign. You don't have any force with which to conquer them, which I took to be the reason why you were trying to recruit new troops.

Kiviar

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #246 on: 17 June 2018, 16:57:50 »
but the FS commander in particular had a pants-on-head result on the dice,

I'll have to write something up for that when I do my turn, felt like I was reading about the Lyrans there.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #247 on: 17 June 2018, 18:12:52 »
I am intentionally aiming to make the Lyran Admiralty as unlike the Lyran Ground Forces as possible.  Social Generals my ass.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #248 on: 17 June 2018, 18:43:47 »
I'll have to write something up for that when I do my turn, felt like I was reading about the Lyrans there.

(insert obvious FedCom joke here)

---

Thinking this over and seeing your responses, it's pretty clear that secret techs are dumb in this system. The winner was the Terran Hegemony, getting Ferro-Aluminum armor for its support ships. (To be clear, FA armor doesn't help WarShips or stations. It's only usable on fighters, small craft, and DropShips. Improved Ferro-Aluminum is the one that'll affect your ships.)

Also, I know I was mulling over the concept of random effects for each player each turn, or on each design, some pages ago on this thread. I'm ditching that as well - it's a lot of work for a fairly small impact, and that's not really worth it.
« Last Edit: 17 June 2018, 18:52:29 by Alsadius »

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #249 on: 17 June 2018, 21:29:34 »
Kiviar - how much cargo volume does that big bruiser have?  Shes got great speed, armor, and firepower - Im trying to figure out where the corners were cut.

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #250 on: 17 June 2018, 21:30:41 »
What about my results in the attempted takeovers of the Lothian League and Illyrian Palatinate?

Post 190, two above my budget posting.

TT
Perhaps I misread you, but that seemed like a statement of policy, not an actual military campaign. You don't have any force with which to conquer them, which I took to be the reason why you were trying to recruit new troops.

Yeah I forgot to get a jumper... AM ratifying this.

---------------------------------------------

Marian Action News Network ( MANN )
Nova Roma, Alphard
Comitium Curia, Senate Grounds

Camera pans from right to left as sounds of loud talking in many languages is heard. A heavy gravel is heard silence pursues.

" Lordships, Ladies and Senators... " states a gravelly old voice. " It has come to the attention of the crown that our nearest threat is many jumps away, but not to worry. A call for recruitment has been made. It is the lordship's wish that our ground force to seize control over the various petty realms in our immediate midst and for that he has raised some minor taxes... " Loud grumblings and minor curses are heard. " How ever... " continues the voice, more loudly to be heard. " his lordship has deemed to expand the Navis ( Latin: Navy ) trough any acquisitions or other means. "

HPGs have been sent out via PMs. Alsadius I'm requesting Smegish and Marcussmythe to supply me with some goods.

Will record with official prices and update my budget later this week.

TT
« Last Edit: 17 June 2018, 21:35:16 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #251 on: 17 June 2018, 22:02:20 »
NVM.  I am an idiot.  Got Galahad and Albion mixed up and was trying to figure out what Quinru Zhe was able to do to threaten a Galahad.  QZ vs Albion is conflict of the commerce raiders.

Vition2

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #252 on: 17 June 2018, 22:18:17 »
Kiviar - how much cargo volume does that big bruiser have?  Shes got great speed, armor, and firepower - Im trying to figure out where the corners were cut.

I'm calculating just under 10kt - but I could be missing something.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #253 on: 17 June 2018, 23:10:11 »
I'm calculating just under 10kt - but I could be missing something.

Ahh.  That will do it.  Maybe a bit more?  I notice she saves tonnage by cramming crew into steerage.  Still, thats a lot of gun and a lot of armor and speed....  ‘Elan, Tojours  Elan...”

Kiviar

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #254 on: 17 June 2018, 23:11:21 »
QZ vs Albion is conflict of the commerce raiders.

Yeah, Alsadius and I were basically on the same page re strategy and design from the moment he mentioned this to me, so it's no surprise that we ended up making the same basic ship.

As for the Galahad, its firepower and protection did indeed come at the cost of cargo and ammunition. It has a small (at least compared to canon designs) ~13k of cargo, and only 12 reloads per killer-whale tube. But, it's meant for hit-and-run attacks on hard targets and not for crusading across the Inner Sphere.

marauder648

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #255 on: 18 June 2018, 00:56:35 »
Oh wow! You've put a hell of a lot of work into this :D
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Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #256 on: 18 June 2018, 01:26:46 »
Question about maintenance: How much of this stuff are we paying maintenance on? All of it? Just the Warships?

Makes a big difference to budgets, especially tight ones.

EDIT: Also, is there an average loss rate on Fighters, Dropships and such? Normal losses due to training accidents, piracy losses and general wear and tear and such. Perhaps x amount lost per world controlled? Double/triple if in serious action?
« Last Edit: 18 June 2018, 01:53:06 by Smegish »

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #257 on: 18 June 2018, 05:25:17 »
Just warships, IIRC.  The whole economy would grind to a halt, otherwise.

As for fighter losses, I think were skipping ‘training accident’ figter losses, for simplicity. I assume once fighter losses get significant, the ST will tell us about them.

In fact - Im assuming the ST will tell us about any changes to our OOB.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #258 on: 18 June 2018, 09:50:51 »
I'm torn, tbh. It's probably simpler to just ignore losses of that sort, but they'll happen, and I don't especially want to be writing up loss lists for every faction every turn based on combat - the losses given in my battle reports above should be taken out of your stockpiles, of course, but there is also other combat happening that doesn't get reported. A flat 5-10% attrition rate might actually make sense.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #259 on: 18 June 2018, 10:01:16 »
We can do flat fighter attrition if you want, but it might be easier paperwork wise to just ‘maintain’ fighers like you do warships, as they also eat food, fuel, training.  Or just assume that fighter replacement is covered in ‘budget dust - other’ much like fighter upgrades.

I’d do meaningful fighter losses (like what happened to Rasalhauge) as any other combat losses (like nearly happened to some ships)
« Last Edit: 18 June 2018, 10:07:31 by marcussmythe »

Vition2

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #260 on: 18 June 2018, 11:55:51 »
A flat 5-10% attrition rate might actually make sense.
A quick suggestion: use 5% (unless engaged in an actual full-scale war, in which case up the off-screen casualties to around 15%), I did a fairly comprehensive review of how much clans should expect to need to replace with their much higher levels of regular conflict, and came to a conclusion of about 12.66% losses - the Inner Sphere should normally be significantly less than this.

As for training accidents, a reminder that ASF are significantly more robust than current day fighters, to the point that lawn-darting during training is not likely to cause significant destroyed fighters - you'll suffer larger losses in personnel but the equipment will very often be either repairable or salvageable.

In case you want to take a look and pick it over, here's the link: https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3530.msg44105#msg44105

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #261 on: 18 June 2018, 12:47:43 »
As for training accidents, a reminder that ASF are significantly more robust than current day fighters, to the point that lawn-darting during training is not likely to cause significant destroyed fighters - you'll suffer larger losses in personnel but the equipment will very often be either repairable or salvageable.

A well armored medium or heavy fighter can use lithobreaking suprisingly safely.  LCF-R20 could probably kill mechs by ramming them, if the rules permitted.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #262 on: 18 June 2018, 15:42:05 »
Someone-not-me should start and keep up a TRO for this thread.  Maybe an editable post, no replies, updated as new ships come out.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #263 on: 18 June 2018, 16:09:24 »
Someone-not-me should start and keep up a TRO for this thread.  Maybe an editable post, no replies, updated as new ships come out.

That's what I intend the Google Docs spreadsheet to be, though it's not nearly there yet. Not proper TRO format, admittedly, but easy to see everything in one place.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #264 on: 18 June 2018, 18:25:31 »
Request for Clarification:  Maintenance costs for Space Stations, yes/no?  Checked back through the thread and saw yes in some places and no in others.  Given that currently only things with K-F drives pay maintenance, ‘no’ makes sense to me- espc as some stations (recharge stations leap to mind, or repair) would likely pay their own way by charging civilians for use - but Im easy either way.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #265 on: 18 June 2018, 19:46:56 »
Any jump-point station that mounts a recharge array will pay for itself in normal use through civilian fees, so no maintenance on those. (Within reasonable limits, of course - you can't post 473 stations at a single jump point and have them all be free. Let's cap it at two per system.). Non-charging stations will cost the same percentage as WarShips.

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #266 on: 18 June 2018, 21:11:15 »
How about repair costs for ships noted as taking heavy damage? Equal to maintenance, making that ship cost double for this turn?

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #267 on: 18 June 2018, 21:15:42 »
What about the use of Habitats? Smallest one is 120K while the larger one is closer to half million. Also I can't wait for the TH Gatekeeper Stations, the non-militarized Drake SDS version and later the Pavise M-9!

Also, as since I'm a small fishy in this here ocean of over bloated Megladonish Whales.... is there any way of " Researching: Mining Techniques " e.g. paying say 1B for a small percentage of increase by 25% higher per turn ( decade )? But put a cap on how much money one can use to get more.

TT

Current budget: $18 Billion 887 Million
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« Last Edit: 18 June 2018, 22:02:54 by truetanker »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #268 on: 18 June 2018, 21:36:27 »
Any jump-point station that mounts a recharge array will pay for itself in normal use through civilian fees, so no maintenance on those. (Within reasonable limits, of course - you can't post 473 stations at a single jump point and have them all be free. Let's cap it at two per system.). Non-charging stations will cost the same percentage as WarShips.

Under this ruling, I will either be building deathstars with a recharge array to cover their maintenance, or I will not do so out of good taste and feel bad a little bad every turn when I pay maintenance.

The more I think about it, might be best to just charge maintenance for all stations, fighters, droppers, jumpers, all of it, (and if the GM thinks that repair or charging stations are economically beneficial, then bump budgets to reflect increased economic activity).

Or perhaps to only charge maintenance on warships.  I fear going down a rabbit hole of ‘maintain this thing, and maintain it harder if you got in a bad fight, but not that thing, and some of these things but not others depending on if they have a special battery, and no maintenance on fighters but we do have to Loss a certain percentage a turn to combat accidents....

(Ill also note that I bought fighters in large numbers on Turn 1 specifically because of the lack of maintenance.  Its NBD, cause its early days and not -that- much money - but lets be careful changing rules going forward)

I want a player considering joining us to have as few barriers to entry as possible.  Consider the confusion of billions vs. milliards.
« Last Edit: 18 June 2018, 22:22:32 by marcussmythe »

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #269 on: 18 June 2018, 21:39:17 »
What about the use of Habitats? Smallest one is 120K while the larger one is closer to half million. Also I can't wait for the TH Gatekeeper Stations, the non-militarized Drake SDS version and later the Pavise M-9!

Also, as since I'm a small fishy in this here ocean of over bloated Megladonish Whales.... is there any way of " Researching: Mining Techniques " e.g. paying say 1B for a small percentage of increase by 25% higher per turn ( decade )? But put a cap on how much money one can use to get more.

TT

Investing in the economy in non-naval ways is I think maybe outside our wheelhouse as Cheifs of Naval Operations.  Even in naval ways (jumpship fleets, recharge stations, what you will) Im more comfortable with handling it in a narrative rather than mechanical fashion.  I fear we may get distracted from the point of the exercise - warship design - by our desire to play GalCiv/MOO.

 

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