Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 192494 times)

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #390 on: 29 June 2018, 23:23:41 »
Well, we cant fix bad luck.  Training is the obvious choice, but training costs money -> which by definition the second class navy doesnt have.  Training is the only way for a navy to ‘prevent’ tactical ******, and history shows that nothing immunizes it.

Here, I dont think the CapCom admiral made a bad gamble.  He -lost- the gamble, but thats not the same thing.  The inferior navy -has- to gamble.  Playing safe just means dying slower.  Range advantages had worked for him before, so it was worth trying.  Which takes me back to my original point - the inferior navy has to take bad risks, so most of the time it just ends up even more inferior.  But sometimes it can make a few good gambles and acheive parity. Sometimes.

Thats one thing thats haaard to get away from.  Small initial advantages in naval conflicts snowball.  Its going to make it challenging to make a game like stay interesting.

Given the positional advantages enjoyed by the FedsSuns, here (yard size, unity of command structure), the CapCom actually still punched well above its weight.

« Last Edit: 29 June 2018, 23:28:19 by marcussmythe »

Smegish

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #391 on: 29 June 2018, 23:26:38 »
I have noticed I seem to be the only one paying above the minimum for maintenance to cover extra training. Haven't seen it really payoff yet because I haven't had a serious opponent, but it may be worth investing a few extra million into rather than spending it on research that the Terrans will win 90% of the time anyway.

Could be something else for those dirty Earthers to throw their buckets of money at too, they are supposed to be the best and all.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #392 on: 29 June 2018, 23:37:00 »
Smegish - goes to budget.  If I had inferior empires on both borders, id haippily budget 150% or more every turn - because more training means less risk, and the superior force should be risk adverse.  An inferior power cant afford to budget for extra training (Lanchester is a cruel master!) until war is immanent. 

Traditionally, the weaker power often dumps a bunch into training and then starts the war on its own schedule.  The stronger navy has little interest in starting the war (its stronger for economic reasons - its ‘ahead’ and likely to get moreso) unless it sees itself losing that dominance.  The weaker navy wants to train hard and try to suckerpunch big brother while big brother is busy doing all the ‘other things’ you have a navy for thst arent blowing up navies... if we were within swinging distance of the Hegemony and wanted to take their toys away, thats what we should be doing.

When training times come for me, I may segregate it, if GM allows.  Intensive training for my jumpship crews is a waste of money.  Ditto colliers.  Double-ditto jump station crews - what are they gonna do, shoot AC5s better?  But line of battle ships might be worth some ****** insurance, and max-training at least the fighter crews on shipboard, and any powerful, independent operations style units, would be a good idea.
« Last Edit: 29 June 2018, 23:43:36 by marcussmythe »

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #393 on: 29 June 2018, 23:41:36 »
RL admirals know there's an element of luck involved in any battle too. Look at the bizarre turns of luck at Jutland, or basically every single aspect of Midway. Or Nelson's comment before Trafalgar - "Something must be left to chance; nothing is sure in a sea fight above all."

The Cappies didn't do well with the dice in that battle, no question. The fleets were roughly equally matched in most senses, and it was quite plausible for them to have won. But a few things went wrong, and so they lost. Some of those will be obvious to any observer(a misjump taking 20-25% of your combat power off the board), while some (gunnery that's generally less effective than in the previous battle) are subtler and could be missed. As for ways to fix it, a navigator blowing a combat jump seems like an obvious case for additional training budgets(which is included in maintenance for gameplay purposes, as a reminder), or you can go the other way and economize on maintenance so that you afford to get an extra ship on the board and be no worse off it you do lose one to chance. Fixed defences might help, if you can ensure that the battle happens in the right place, and of course there's a dozen approaches to building your ships differently that might help in one way or another. For example, if your tactics tend to be full-on Brave Sir Robin, why not build a ship with most of its guns facing aft?

Also, a side note occasioned by the maintenance discussion above. The maintenance budget has been a flat percentage thus far, if only because we have fairly little to maintain, but feel free to mix it up. If you want 200% maintenance on your fighter forces, or to go to 80% on those old non-refitted ships you'll have kicking around in a century's time, just say so. It'll move money around within your force structure instead of giving you freebies - TANSTAAFL, as the man above said - but it may be of interest to some.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #394 on: 29 June 2018, 23:45:30 »
Alsadius, get out of my brain.   ;D

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9940
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #395 on: 30 June 2018, 09:20:38 »
   -sribbles

* Looks up... hides notes.   What?

   -sribbles

TT  :)
« Last Edit: 30 June 2018, 09:22:29 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #396 on: 30 June 2018, 11:12:26 »
Question for the crowd. My battle write-ups are way longer this turn than last turn. As you might imagine, this means writing them takes a lot longer as well. Is this worthwhile to you? Would you rather have turns resolve faster with short battle reports, slower with long battle reports, or some sort of middle ground where only the really important battles get lengthy write-ups?

Ive been thinking about this.  I think theres no real right answer.

My 'gut feel' is that if we could get turns to turn over in about a week?  Much longer than that, and its hard to maintain focus/flow, for me.  I start forgetting what people have built, and what I'm building, and how I want it to work.  As for how much writing that means for Alsadius - Id maybe look at keeping a comfortably steady turnover, and writing as much or as little as your real life allows?  I know you had said something about work beating you up more lately.

For this turn, youve got A LOT of combat going on.  By my recollection of future history, this is one of the more exciting turns between now and the fall of the star league.

All of that said, when do you anticipate being able to publish the end of turn, so I can plan accordingly (and stop digging down to look for post edits! :) )

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9940
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #397 on: 30 June 2018, 13:30:17 »
Suggestion:

Make each battle a separate posting, with a final count and link last. Or run a separate thread in the RPG.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #398 on: 30 June 2018, 13:48:55 »
Yeah, I want weekly if it can be managed. This one has been closer to two weeks, and that's too long.

FYI, deciding not to announce the edits was clearly a mistake, so count this as notification that I've just posted the commerce warfare. I suspect there'll be less to write about in the other battles. I may actually push the discovery of the Taurians back a turn just to spread things out a bit. I want to finish it this weekend, just to let you guys go back to playing your side of things.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #399 on: 01 July 2018, 07:57:59 »
I have noticed I seem to be the only one paying above the minimum for maintenance to cover extra training. Haven't seen it really payoff yet because I haven't had a serious opponent, but it may be worth investing a few extra million into rather than spending it on research that the Terrans will win 90% of the time anyway.

Could be something else for those dirty Earthers to throw their buckets of money at too, they are supposed to be the best and all.

Your navy’s tactics and handling of the Rasalhauge fighter swarm was much better the second time around.  This may be due to familiarity (they came, in the same old way), but may also be reflective of your increased spend there.  They had enough fighters and capital missiles to easily kill a capship - and didnt. 

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #400 on: 01 July 2018, 10:19:35 »
Your navy’s tactics and handling of the Rasalhauge fighter swarm was much better the second time around.  This may be due to familiarity (they came, in the same old way), but may also be reflective of your increased spend there.  They had enough fighters and capital missiles to easily kill a capship - and didnt.

That wasn't quite what I was thinking at the time. The Rasalhaguers were afraid of tangling with fleet units after what happened on turn 1, so they tried to hit a comparatively defenceless target instead. That decision wasn't maintenance-based. Where maintenance comes in is that I use it to increase your die rolls. Their attack was messed up by the commander's roll being really low, however, so they wound up doing less well than they could have(albeit, the situation was salvaged by the other two being pretty decent). If the Rasalhaguers had been at 200% maintenance for a century(to pick an extreme example), then they'd have had commanders trained at an effective military academy and a good training budget, so that blunders like that would be less likely to happen. In such a situation, a low roll is still worse than a high roll, but rolling a 1 means you're the worst that a highly educated, well-trained fleet has to offer. That's very different from being the worst in the fleet of a nation that crews its battleships with condemned prisoners because nobody else will work for the wages they offer.

Die rolls are invisible to you guys, but they make a big difference - the two Capellan/FedSuns fleet fights thus far have both been between near-equal forces, but in both cases one side rolled substantially worse than the other and lost as a result.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #401 on: 01 July 2018, 10:25:01 »
Maintenance has momentum.  Good to know - it makes sense, and I was wondering about it, but it wasnt high enough on the priority list to ask.  :)
« Last Edit: 01 July 2018, 10:27:56 by marcussmythe »

Kiviar

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #402 on: 01 July 2018, 13:19:47 »
I clearly need to be investing more in my fighter maintenance if the "best" of the FPF/AFFS's aerospace corps thought taking an entire aero-regiment in to battle against a lone warship with nothing but their pea-shooters was a good idea.

Although at this point in btech history the Federated Suns are incompetent jerks, so, things are working out about as they should be. Oh well, at least I'll get Simon Davion soon and have a few turns of not being the literal worst.

Of course after that I go to war with the Hegemony....
« Last Edit: 01 July 2018, 13:25:33 by Kiviar »

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9940
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #403 on: 01 July 2018, 17:33:09 »
Liam's Ghost made a very nice idea...

That is if Alsadius would allow inclusion.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62000.msg0#new

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #404 on: 01 July 2018, 17:53:07 »
Liam's Ghost made a very nice idea...

That is if Alsadius would allow inclusion.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62000.msg0#new

TT

Armed merchant ships are legal in these rules. Same R&D cost as warships, but they get built twice as fast. Feel free to design something like that if you want - no need for the DropShuttle bay, even, because we have collars. That'll save 10,000 tons - I'm sure you can think of something interesting to do with 10,000 tons of payload on an armed merchantman. 

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #405 on: 02 July 2018, 12:44:57 »
Lyran Commonwealth, Turn 3 (Fluff)

(crunch to follow when we have final numbers for turn 2 - but this scene has been stuck in my head a few days, and needed out)

The young man had charisma, she had to give him that.  Tall, well built, with a broad white smile that distracted from the predator’s eyes above it.  A few decades ago, he’d have turned her head.  Of course, a few decades ago, he was busy being born.  Still, such musings served no purpose, and her lawful civilian superior was speaking.

“I’m not saying your -wrong-, Jackie.  Your Navy, I'm not.  I’m saying make me understand why.  Understand in a way I can explain it to the other eight.”

Jackie, aka Jaqueline Angler, FFA, NSP, ECT, and no doubt a half dozen more similar useless fripperies, was a study in contrast to the young man.  Small by any standard, she was dwarfed by his height.  A slender build and brown complexion had compressed and wizened over the years into something like a burl of dark, dark wood.  Heavy.  Hard.  Something useful for making a walking-stick, someone had said once.  Or a cudgel.

“You’re an Army man, Archon Marsden.  In the Army, you can defend a point with.. what… a third the attacking force, in extremis?  Half or two thirds, certainly.  You have terrain.  You can prepare defenses.  Your attacker has a logisitics train to worry about.  Things of that nature.”

Robert nodded, once, but said no more.

“Space isn’t like that.  Theres no terrain.  No cover.  Fixed defenses are possible, but unless you can afford to put meaningful defenses everywhere, nothing requires the enemy to come to you.  And you can’t prepare a position in a week or a month.  And you have no idea the other side is coming until you get the flash of an incoming jump.”

After a moment, the Archon spoke… “So like an engagement on the open desert?”

“Yes!  Exactly.  If the desert was perfectly flat.  And you couldn’t dig in.  You’ve heard of Lanchester, maybe, in command school?  He applies well enough to ground combat, but not perfectly.  Terrain, cover.  Limits of force density.  Space isn’t like that.  Tell me.  Your defending a.. hill, or a city, with 8 tanks.  12 attack.  You probably can repulse them, yes?”

“Doctrine is 2-1 is the minimum for offensive operation.  3-1 is better.”

“Right.  In space?  12 units attack 8.  The 8 flee, and do so before the first shot is fired, or they are crushed.  Its math, and only slightly less inevitable than gravity.  Assume that it takes the fire of 4 units to destroy 1, over, say, ten minutes.  And lets assume the units are equal.  These are huge assumptions, but they illustrate the problem.  After ten minutes… the larger force has lost 2 ships, the smaller force 3.  So 12-8 is now 10-5.  In the next interval, the larger force loses another vessel, and a second suffers, formally, 25% damage.  The 5 unit force loses two, and half of a third.  So 8.75 vs. 2.5... and warships keep most of their firepower till they die.  The weaker force if it gets lucky finishes off the damaged warship, and the stronger side reduces the weaker to a single cripple... and 4 ships have been lost to kill 8."

“And then it is all over. So what do you do, if you can’t match the larger force?”

“There’s no end of tricks that are tried.  The French, under Napoleon, focused on long range accuracy and speed – taking what they could for free and running before there could be a decisive engagement.  They got some damage in, but nothing decisive.  And when the decisive fights happened?  Nile?  Trafalgar?  They were crushed.  Because they had trained and built for sniping and running.  Inferior position had forced strategy and tactics that, while it kept them in the game for a time, made their loss inevitable.  Hell, they couldn't have capitalized on a winning engagement if they had the opportunity for one.  They probably couldn't have seen it as such.”

“The Germans focused on trying to catch isolated ‘bits’ of the British Fleet in WW1.  Unfortunately for them, Jellicoe was not an idiot.  You’ll note that the German fleet communication was arguably better.   They didn’t have an idiot in charge of their Battlecruiser Squadrons – Beatty was an idiot.  Just trust me on that.  German ships sacrificed freeboard and sustainability – they didn’t have huge cargo bays or bunkerage, they were pure ‘come out and fight in the north sea ships’, while the British had commitments all over the world.  German gunnery was better.  German shells were phenomenally better – they actually worked, unlike the British shells – which mostly didn’t explode when they were supposed to.  German armor was better – more internal subdivision, less need for long term habitability, and their yards could lay broader ships, which had a lot of advantages.  German powder was better – it was cased, not loose, and didn’t explode nearly so casually as the British powder.  And the Germans knew their powder handling better – they didn’t leave doors open, turning ships into floating bombs one penetration away from a firework show…

“I’ll stop you there.  I take it you could go on a while.”

“I could.  But do you know what happened?  They got beaten so badly that after Jutland the German Navy never stuck its neck out again.  Sure, the box score in lost ships looked better for Germany, but while most of those well built ships survived to make it back to port, their battlecruiser squadron was still beaten to ruins, and the British were still building faster than them.  By a few months after Jutland, the Germans were -further- behind than they before – despite enough unforced errors on the part of the British to make a woman weep.”

“That’s enough, Jackie, I think that covers…”

“One more, Robert.  Japan.  USA.  Terran ‘Second World War.’  The Japanese were at day one trained to a razors edge.  They had a plan.  They executed.  Hell, Robert, they had ‘secret superweapons’ in the worst holovid sense of the word – I’d kill for something as surprising and effective compared to the rest of the world as a Long Lance Torpedo.   They broke the back of the U.S. Line of Battle – missing only the carriers – at Pearl Harbor.  It’s been said that if they got the carriers, at Hawaii Japan would have won.  Said by idiots.  Other idiots have said that the U.S. won the war when they broke Japanese codes at Midway, and sunk several carriers for one.”

“And I assume your about to tell me that it was predestined?”

“Assuming America cared to fight, yes.  They could have lost their entire pacific fleet at Pearl, and lost everything they added after Pearl at Midway.  The war might have lasted another six months.  Year tops.  Because the Americans were building more ships, faster ships, better ships, better trained, with more fuel, and more infrastructure, and more resources, and…”

Robert sighed, eloquently.

“Allright.  So naval warfare is only slightly less deterministic than gravity, and its determined by weight of fire.  By numbers of units.  By budget.  That’s all well and good, but the other Archons aren’t going to go for it.  So find another way.”

The walnut woman’s shoulders slumped, head in hands.

“I used to be clever, Robert, and I’m still stubborn.  My boys and girls are still clever.  And stubborn.  We’ve got tricks, I’ll show you some.  But there really aren’t ‘other ways’.  Anything we can do, they can do, better, and will, unless they are idiots.  And any plan that has as its starting victory condition 'the other side is incapable of pouring piss from a boot with instructions on the heel' is... not a good plan." 

"I’m not entirely sure what the Combine is up to, but the League is mass-producing big Battlecruisers - their up to 12 to our six cruisers, and I'll give you odds their laying another 8 over the next decade..  and any answer I adopt, either of them can correct in the next build cycle – and then do whatever I’m doing, harder.  Oh, I’m not saying it’s over before it starts. The Combine is going to curl up like a snake and spend a decade or three digesting Rasalhauge.  The League just stuck its nose into the Capellan district, so will have to watch its back.  Weve got some time before the storm.  But we have to USE that time, and we have to start now.  Otherwise?  Your good little navy boys and girls will answer the call and go die for Archon and Commonwealth.  They they'll even make the snakes and the birds bleed some.  Maybe bad enough that they decide the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
 
But unless you can get the other eight to get their heads out of their collective honorable rear ends and start acting like a star nation rather than 9 personally profitable fiefdoms, all those good brave boys and girls are going to do is that – they are going to die, and their deaths won’t matter for shit if the other team is willing to press the matter.  Because we won’t be any more able to stop them if they come to fight and mean it than those poor, brave, dead French boys.  Or the German ones.  Or the Japanese ones.  Very brave, very clever, very stubborn.  Did it right.  Lost.  Died.”

Robert smiled ruefully “I assume you are a bit more circumspect with the other Archons?”

“You’re a soldier, Robert.  They aren’t.  Make them listen.  Or its all ‘Maldon’ and ‘How many of them can we make die’ and our people getting their heads chopped off in the name of Combine manifest destiny – just like those poor, brave, dead Rashalhauge bastards.”

“I’ll see what I can do, Jackie.  But you have to give me time.”

“Ask me for anything but time, Robert.  Ask me for anything but time.”
« Last Edit: 02 July 2018, 14:42:23 by marcussmythe »

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #406 on: 02 July 2018, 13:03:16 »
((For the record, the player isnt quite as bleak as the character.  But its an in character scene - and Im also playing into some historic in-universe events to come))

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #407 on: 02 July 2018, 21:50:46 »
Good write-up, but the bit about him being "busy being born" jarred me - I'd looked into Marsden's backstory, and recalled him being the one who co-founded the LC in the first place.

So I looked up the Sarna article, and...we're both right. Robert was Archon of the Protectorate of Donegal in 2340, and was there when the LC was agreed to. But his listed birth date is 2351. Battletech's history is a bit of a tangle sometimes...

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #408 on: 02 July 2018, 21:56:01 »
I read the same article!  Hes described as a ‘young health nut’ at his assassination in a few decades, so I went -young- for him... having him have come to power as early as possible in his lifespan (not, admittedly, before he was born.  Few people are that talented).  I just liked the contrast of the big, magnetic, slightly sociopathic Robert and the elderly, frail, but still ‘hard to the core’ Jackie.

I need to reseach medtech in that universe, see how long I can realistically keep her around.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #409 on: 02 July 2018, 22:00:10 »
Followed the link.  -love- that story.  But of his shorts, I think I prefer ‘The Man who Traveled in Elephants’, cause Im a dusty old romantic.

Smegish

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #410 on: 03 July 2018, 03:02:34 »
Still a few last minute adjustments may be needed to my budget, but here is a memorandum:

Quote
DCA Fleet Readiness Memorandum
3rd February 2369

1. The fighter complement on board each DCA vessel is sufficient to defend the vessel from opposing fighters, so long as the doctrine is kept to. Fighters and small craft can do great damage to unescorted WarShips, but have so far proved no great threat to a properly supported vessel.
2. The Kutai-class Corvette is too thinly armoured to serve much purpose in the line of battle, and should be depolyed only as a convoy escort, picket ship or courier of essential material.
3. The Fubuki-class Destroyer, while more than capable, is also expensive compared to the equivalent ships of our neighbours. The Commonwealth Tyr-class Cruiser is a mere $160 Million more expensive, and yet has a massive firepower advantage over it. For now the new cheaper Minekaze-class should be used without KF collars, until DropShip technology has advanced to the point of making such collars viable on our main workhorse design.
4. The Atago-class Cruiser is also expensive compared to the Tyr-class, thanks to its collars, but the superior speed and fighter complement is seen as an advantage to the Lyran brute force design. Ship seen as equal to cruiser-sized vessels built by Davion or Steiner, and superior to anything the Hegemony Navy has other than the rumoured Monsoon-class.
5. Fleet still untested against a real opponent.
6. Future plan for fleet deployment is squadrons consisting of 1 Atago-class, 1 Fubuki-class and 2 of the new Minekaze-class.

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #411 on: 03 July 2018, 09:19:26 »
Okay, I'm finally done. The Taurian battle is pushed off until turn 3, but the FWL/CC fight has been posted, and budgets are up.

Sorry for the delay, but I hope you like it. https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61764.msg1424614#msg1424614

Smegish

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #412 on: 04 July 2018, 03:54:06 »
So here we go: Budget for 2370-79

Code: [Select]
Year: 2370 Value in Millions
Money Available 110,000
Remaining from Last Turn 1000
Available Shipyards

Luthien 3/2/2/1
New Samarkand 3/1
Midway 1

Repairs

Maintanence 94215 120% 11305.8
Prototype Cost Onsen Station 451
Minekaze 6,102

Construction Unit Price
Shipyards
Stations Onsen 20 451 9,020
Warships Atago 4 9,339 37,356
Fubuki 0 7,241 0
Minekaze 4 6,102 24408
Kutai 0 6,092 0
Trojan 2 4,031 8,062
Jumpships 0 500 0
Dropships 12 300 3,600
Fighters 5 Wings of 36 180 5 900
Small Craft 288 10 2880
Research 3,915 1 3915
Loan Marian Hegemony 5000
Total Spent 112999.8

Income Trojan Lease 2 1000 2000
Marian Loan 0 1000 0
Remaining 0


Future Income Trojan Loan 2000/Turn 2 Turns left
Yard Loan 1000/Turn 5 Turns left

Onsen-class Recharge Station

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Onsen
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $451,295,000.00
Magazine Cost: $744,000.00
BV2: 9,272

Mass: 500,000
K-F Drive System: None
Power Plant: Station-Keeping Drive
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 1
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
48 AC 5
48 Machine Gun (IS)

Intended as a civilian recharge station to be deployed across the Combine with only the most basic of defenses capable of fighting off fighters or perhaps a small dropship, but any serious raiders will take the station apart quite quickly. Can hold up to 10 dropships as needed plus quarters for a sizeable population, however it lacks repair facilities of its own for emergencies.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Onsen
Mass: 500,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 6,000
Thrust
Safe: 0.2
Maximum: 1
Controls: 500
K-F Hyperdrive: None (0 Integrity) 0
Jump Sail: (0 Integrity) 0
Structural Integrity: 1 5,000
Total Heat Sinks: 154 Single
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 25000 points 10,200
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 480 pts Standard 1,200
Fore: 80
Fore-Left/Right: 80/80
Aft-Left/Right: 80/80
Aft: 80

Dropship Capacity: 10 10,000
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 4 400
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 100 700

Energy Storage Battery (3) 300000
Fighter Bay (36) 3 Doors 5400
Small Craft Bay (12) 2 Doors 2400
Cargo Bay 4 Doors 151801


Crew And Passengers:
28 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 196
117 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 819
16 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 112
132 Bay Personnel 924
50 1st Class Passengers 500
100 2nd Class Passengers 700
500 Steerage Passengers 2,500


Code: [Select]
# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 AC 5 Nose 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 AC 5 FR 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 AC 5 FL 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 AC 5 AR 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 AC 5 AL 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 AC 5 Aft 8 40 (4-C) Medium 64
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4

AC 5 Ammo 2880 Rounds
Machine Gun Ammo 19200 Rounds

The twenty currently built stations are deployed in a chain centered on Midway, branching out to Benjamin, Luthien and New Samarkand.

And the Minekaze

Minekaze-class Destroyer

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Minekaze
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $6,101,984,000.00
Magazine Cost: $40,816,000.00
BV2: 66,478

Mass: 500,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
28 Naval AC 20
32 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
32 AC 5
48 Machine Gun (IS)
12 Naval Laser 35

With the current limited dropship technology at present, the pair of drop collars on the Fubuki-class has been seen as an unneccesary expense in a workhorse WarShip, and so the DCA pressed their now ageing designer Kouzou Fuyutsuki to find a cheaper alternative. Not only did he manage it, his new Minekaze design is also better armoured whilst maintaining comparable firepower whilst costing over a billion k-bills less.

The Minekaze is 500,000 tons, with a very similar battery of Naval AC's to the Fubuki and trading some of that ships Naval Lasers and conventional autocannons for a large battery of Capital Missiles dispersed across the entire hull. The internal structure and armour are also improved compared to the earlier design, with eleven hundred tons of armour sheathing the Minekaze. The small NCSS previously installed on the Kutai was also mounted.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Minekaze
Mass: 500,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 90,000
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 1,250
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (12 Integrity) 226,250
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 55
Structural Integrity: 110 55,000
Total Heat Sinks: 2976 Single 2,507
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 506 pts Standard 1,100
Fore: 82
Fore-Left/Right: 86/86
Aft-Left/Right: 86/86
Aft: 80

Dropship Capacity: 0 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 30 210
Life Boats: 30 210


Bay Fighter (36) 5,400 6 Doors
Bay Small Craft (12) 2,400 2 Doors
Cargo, Standard 8,086 2 Doors
1 NCSS Small 100

Crew And Passengers:
41 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 410
104 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 728
92 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 644
132 Bay Personnel 924
0 1st Class Passengers 0
0 2nd Class Passengers 0
50 Steerage Passengers 250


Code: [Select]
# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
4 Naval AC 20 Nose 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Killer Whale Nose 80 160 (16-C) Extreme-C 600
4 AC 5 Nose 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
8 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
4 Naval AC 20 FR 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Killer Whale FR 80 160 (16-C) Extreme-C 600
4 AC 5 FR 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
4 Naval AC 20 FL 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Killer Whale FL 80 160 (16-C) Extreme-C 600
4 AC 5 FL 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
4 Naval AC 20 LBS 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
6 Naval Laser 35 LBS 312 210 (21-C) Long-C 4,200
6 Killer Whale LBS 120 240 (24-C) Extreme-C 900
4 AC 5 LBS 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
4 Naval AC 20 RBS 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
6 Naval Laser 35 RBS 312 210 (21-C) Long-C 4,200
6 Killer Whale RBS 120 240 (24-C) Extreme-C 900
4 AC 5 RBS 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
4 Naval AC 20 AR 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Killer Whale AR 80 160 (16-C) Extreme-C 600
4 AC 5 AR 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
4 Naval AC 20 AL 240 800 (80-C) Long-C 10,000
4 Killer Whale AL 80 160 (16-C) Extreme-C 600
4 AC 5 AL 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
4 AC 5 Aft 4 20 (2-C) Medium 32
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4


Code: [Select]
Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval AC 20 Ammo 1400 560.00
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 320 16,000.00
AC 5 Ammo 3200 160.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 19200 96.00

As usual, Capital weapons are mounted in twin turrets, standard scale in quad turrets.

Code: [Select]
Deployment

Steiner Front Atago Class - Atago, Chokai
Minekaze Class    - Hayate
Fubuki Class - Fubuki

Davion Front Atago Class - Takao, Maya
Minekaze Class         - Minekaze
Fubuki Class - Ibuki

Cameron Front Atago Class - Kashima, Furutaka
Minekaze Class         - Shikinami
Fubuki Class - Yudachi

Reserve Atago Class - Aoba
Minekaze Class         - Yukikaze
Kutai Class - Kutai, Galedon, Pesht, Luthien, Benjamin, Arkab
Trojan Class - Sinister, Insidious

All Atago-class vessels escorted by either a Minekaze or Fubuki at all times. [i]Aoba[/i] and [i]Yukikaze[/i] based in Benjamin system,
to respond to trouble from any border.

Kutai-class ships currently deployed in pairs, either patrolling the border or bringing so far
unaffiliated border colonies into the caring protection of the Coordinator.

Trojan-Class ships scouting out future strike targets in bordering nations, and jump routes through uninhabited systems or deep space to those targets.

Code: [Select]
Start Turn In Service Value BV
Warships Atago 3 28017 83558
Fubuki 3 21723 57421
Minekaze 0 66478
Kutai 6 36552 15629
Trojan 0 0 15229
Stations Onsen
Jumpships 30 15000
Dropships Small 20 6000

Fighters 2556 12780 71 Wings
Small Craft 216 2160
Total 94215
Maintanence 120% 11305.8
Fighter Complement Whole Fleet 540 15 Wings
DS Complement Whole Fleet 24

End Turn In Service
Warships Atago 7 77028
Fubuki 3 21723
Minekaze 4 23624
Kutai 6 36552
Trojan 2 8062
Stations Onsen 20 6760
Jumpships 30 15000
Dropships Small 32 9600

Fighters 2736 13680
Small Craft 504 5040
Total 215269
Maintenance 12% 25832.28
Fleet Complement Fighters 996
DropShips 32
Small Craft 264
Station Complement Fighters 720
Small Craft 240

EDIT: Forgot the Start and End of Turn figures.
« Last Edit: 04 July 2018, 06:30:07 by Smegish »

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #413 on: 04 July 2018, 06:54:40 »
Also, I have a few requests for you guys if you have a chance. Not mandatory, and some of you have already done this, but they'd be helpful when it comes time for me to write up battles.

1) A list of character names (don't need to be assigned to any particular role, I can give them out as needed)
2) A list of ship names (again, no need to assign them to particular ships unless you want to)
3) A general discussion of your doctrine - deep strikes vs decisive battles vs fleet-in-being, commerce raiding vs fleet concentration, and so on. (Feel free to use as much or as little detail as you like)

Thanks.

Smegish

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #414 on: 04 July 2018, 07:07:00 »
Well, I've done the ship names, WW2 IJN for the most part except for the Kutai, which are named after DC planets  :D

Characters... well gone with an Evangelion theme so far... but I think anything vaguely japanese works for this fleet tbh.

Doctrine-wise, probably more interested in decisive battles, with the occaisonal deep raid on enemy infrastructure (like I PM'd earlier) .Any commerce raiding that may go on is conducted by the Trojans, the rest of the fleet is there for space superiority, securing jump points and planets so the invasion JumpShips can come in.

Fighter-doctrine is mostly defensive, each ships fighter groups #1 mission is protecting the mothership. If the enemy fleet has insufficient fighter coverage, then anti-shipping strikes shall occur.
« Last Edit: 05 July 2018, 02:27:02 by Smegish »

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #415 on: 04 July 2018, 10:52:52 »
Also, I have a few requests for you guys if you have a chance. Not mandatory, and some of you have already done this, but they'd be helpful when it comes time for me to write up battles.

1) A list of character names (don't need to be assigned to any particular role, I can give them out as needed)
2) A list of ship names (again, no need to assign them to particular ships unless you want to)
3) A general discussion of your doctrine - deep strikes vs decisive battles vs fleet-in-being, commerce raiding vs fleet concentration, and so on. (Feel free to use as much or as little detail as you like)

Thanks.

Ive put the following in code tags for length.

Code: [Select]
Ship Names:
Capital ships tend to be named for worlds in the Commonwealth:
Pherkad
Donegal
Gibbs
Tetersen
Duran
Smolnik
Gallery
Turinge
Tamar
Arcturus
Tharkad
Fatima
Orestes
Yed Prior
Alexandria
Freedom
Kimball II
Skye
Hesperus
Gladius
Alcor
Algorab
New Kyoto

Smaller Vessels Classes tend to be named for famous naval commanders and captains of Terran History:
Nimitz
Burke
Jellicoe
Hipper
Scheer
Jones
Farragut
Drake
Perry
Decatur
Halsey
Fletcher
Yamamoto
But not Beatty.  Never, ever Beatty.

Captain Names:
The Navy has taken on some of the 'character' of its primary shipyard and naval academy, both located at Alarion.
Alarion was founded by German, English, and Romanian settlers, primarily, and so a disproportionate number of naval
personnel, especially command, will tend to come from that stock/those names.  That said, the navy -actively- and -
heavily- recruits across the entire Commonwealth, and offers scholarships and other incentives to ensure that the Navy,
unlike the Army and much of Commonwealth Society, is not captured by class advantage/the nobility, while practicing the
same tolerance of all forms of diversity as the Commonwealth does as a whole (The Commonwealth is famous for being
egalitarian about religion, race, gender, sexuality, etc.  It is also famous for being very, very classist.  The navy has no time
for any distinction between its personnel, other than distinctions in proven ability.  That stamp was put on it from the first
by First Lord Angler, and will persist.

Names Include:
Caleb Adams
Nathan Dawson
Patrick Walsh
Edward Harper
Ollie Allen
Lexi Hunter
Eleanor Davies
Amy Macdonald
Freya West
Victoria Clark
Valentina Cox
Reiner Aschenbrener
Jochen Waldner
Carsten Hartlieb
Joseph Schlim
Axel Rosenfeld
Margarete Kornfeld
Tabea Holighaus
Mareike Destinn
Andrea Schedl
Karina Himmler
Tabea Schulberg
Virgil Kinczllers
Catarino Caragiale
Radu Negrescu
Soare Radu
Dimitrie Goian
Cornelia Neacsu
Victoria Giurgiu
Cosmina Osmochescu
Angela Stanasila
Dana Dumitrescu
Ne'igalomeatiga Lemaota
Siaosi Tuiaa
Reupena Le'au
Atamu Fanene
Ala'i Toelau
Lele Savea
Ioana Latu
Sefina Faamate
Ata Fa'amoe
Upumoni Faamoana
Lungelo
Ayanda
Dumisane
Litha
Nkosiphendule
Aphiwe
Slindile
Hlengiwe
Lungelo
Lungile
Bakabaka

Doctrine:
1.)  Concentration of Force.  The fleet should operate in unified fashion at all times and any dispersons of force are to be treated as dangerous aberrations indulged in only with greatest reluctance and at greatest need.

2.)  Decisive Battle:  If the enemy is coming, meet it and defeat it.  If the enemy will not come, use the concentrated force to threaten what must be defended.  Where possible, position forces such that the enemy must either uncover one to mass at the other, or accept division of force.  The objective will alway be destruction of the enemy fleet, to allow for general operations once it is defeated.

3.) Scouting Priority:  Lighter units (Heimdallers, Long-Endurance Small Craft) will be used as scouting pickets, with the intent to locate and target the enemy main force before they can counterdetect.  Light vessels will attack and defeat enemy screening units where practicable.

4.)  Attack Effectively First:  Power, whether in ships, missiles, or fighters, will NOT be dissipated to pursue lesser objectives.  If our picket cannot defeat the enemy picket, we will not break up our fleet to chase down light units.  Once we have identified the enemy main force, we will engage it and destroy it.  We will not rush to do so - as haste is dangerous - but will move with all measured speed muster force to deliver a blow that either is decisive, or provides the opportunity for subsequent decisive action.  A blow that cannot be decisive is a waste of our strength, and we will not be baited into wasting force to do so.

Worked Example:  Two forces are closing.  We have a mix of missile ships and gun ships, while the enemy is all big gun designs.  If the missile ships fire at extreme range, they may be emptied without doing meaningful damage.  If they hold fire until close range, they risk destruction before all missiles may be employed.  In such situation, missiles should be employed to inflict enough damage on the enemy gun-line to allow our gun-line to defeat it in detail.

Worked Example 2:  If the LCN has sufficient fighter assets, and intelligence, to deliver a decisive fighter strike from outside of engagement range, it will do so, and accept fighter losses to cripple an enemy force for second strikes.  If it lacks sufficient power to do so at long range, fighters will be kept close, and used defensively (opening the chance for future offensive strikes), or used in combination with capital ship fire - either to add weight to a decisive blow, or to take advantage of damage created by capital laser and cannon fire.  It is worth noting that ships may fairly easily 'hide' damaged sections from enemy warships, by rolling ship or manuver, but that the same defense is nearly impossible against a group of attacking fighters, who may freely manuver.

5.)  Broadside Engagement:  Vessels tend to maximize broadside firepower.  Further, the sides of the vessel are more resilient to incoming damage.  Finally, vessels taking fire on the bow risk loss of sensors and command and control capability - rendering it unable to contribute fire, while fire from the aft risks engine damage that will cripple the ships manuver and in extreme bad luck risks lost of the vessel entirely to a strike igniting the fuel reserves.  As such, the Lyran Navy will prefer to fight on the broadside, and if necessary reserve thrust for emergency heading manuvers to protect the aft and bow quarters.  They will where possible engage the enemy aft, followed by bow, followed by broadsides - but will NOT split the force to do so.  Fighter craft specifically will engage the aft, both to limit defensive fire, concentrate damage on the most vulnerable quarter in the hope of destruction, or failing in destruction, to cripple the enemys ability to manuver so the enemy force must either separate to invite defeat in detail or become tied to the operation speed of its slowest element.
« Last Edit: 04 July 2018, 11:13:37 by marcussmythe »

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #416 on: 05 July 2018, 10:51:30 »
Sorry for the delay - real life has been jumping up and down on me.  Hope to have turn out today, tomorrow latest, so we can get back on track faster.

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #417 on: 05 July 2018, 11:02:34 »
Yeah, I wanted a bit of a pause after the marathon last turn, but I'll try to get back to it before too long.

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #418 on: 05 July 2018, 11:30:22 »
~Duplicate~
« Last Edit: 05 July 2018, 14:30:55 by marcussmythe »

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #419 on: 05 July 2018, 11:58:00 »
Well, youve got the Tairians to worry about, RWR, and the Hegemony.  Taurians prepare desparately to face Davion fist.  RWR grows like a bacteria culture, unopposed.  You could save time on the Terran Hegemony.  “Buys all the things” is one answer.  :)

 

Register