Author Topic: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?  (Read 11916 times)

Colt Ward

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Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« on: 06 October 2014, 01:08:42 »
I am wondering about this considering the pre-Clan bandit kingdoms along the LC/DC border and the history of the Marian Hegemony.  To be honest the Marians seem to indicate it very well could be but part of what made the Vikings successful was the lack of any serious opposition in their home waters IIRC.  I would have to dig but I am not sure how well their longboats did against other naval warships of the time.  They were also raiders- surprise, speed and violence of their assault would carry them through initially but they also quickly retreated off with their loot before heavier forces could respond.  Later they went from raiding to conquering the territory from what I recall- but politics, religion, technology and demographics had shifted.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #1 on: 06 October 2014, 01:40:17 »
I would think so. They would make their living through raiding and porbably would end up getting squashed by a major house or an alliance of minor houses once they got sick and tired of the raiding
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #2 on: 06 October 2014, 01:44:19 »
Space vikings are not really realistic in any technological setting. The complexity of star travel means any damage to space-faring systems is absolutely catastrophic. This doesn't even have to be combat damage - lack of repairs, lack of spares, all lead to crippling outcomes.

The longboat could be built by Viking communities, and maintained and repaired from "found" materials using non-complex tools. Space Vikings can't build a JumpShip or DropShip - if they can, then they're not space Vikings. Similarly, if your rebreather breaks, a fusion exhaust nozzle degrades, or navcomp fries a circuit board, you can't chop down a tree and adze out planks to replace them.

It's a romaticised, popular concept, but it - and they - ain't going to fly without major shots of fiat.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #3 on: 06 October 2014, 02:52:36 »
I don't know. If space Pirates exist (and they do), then so can Space Vikings (they are just a step above pirates and actually, IRL, had the means to build their ships, unlike pirates)
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #4 on: 06 October 2014, 02:53:25 »
Also note that the vikings were as much traders as they were raiders.  The 1950's-60s conception of "space vikings" really had a great deal to do with a romanticized notion of what a (in reality) very complex society was like.

(Seriously, the 1950-early 70s_ were the heyday of warlords with starships-- that used them to transport their sword weilding warriors to the target).

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #5 on: 06 October 2014, 02:55:10 »
I don't know. If space Pirates exist (and they do), then so can Space Vikings (they are just a step above pirates and actually, IRL, had the means to build their ships, unlike pirates)

But that's the problme-- in Battletech, building a dropships or Jumpshiop is a major industrial undertaking, to the point where major house governments with hundreds of industrialized systems find it a challenge to maintain their fleets.  The historical vikings were skilled ship builders, but their ships were simple and could be built with the labor of a village.

that's not the case with a dropship.

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #6 on: 06 October 2014, 02:58:28 »
Funny. I was going to say Space Viking style raiding is the very core concept of BattleTech. It's what even the Great Houses have been doing ever since the Succession Wars. There wasn't much actual conquest going on, just smash & grab raids for lostech or even water.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #7 on: 06 October 2014, 05:43:58 »
Funny. I was going to say Space Viking style raiding is the very core concept of BattleTech. It's what even the Great Houses have been doing ever since the Succession Wars. There wasn't much actual conquest going on, just smash & grab raids for lostech or even water.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #8 on: 06 October 2014, 08:23:32 »
" Save us, oh Lord, from the fury if the Jarnfolk"  :o . closest group I can think of to space vikings.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #9 on: 06 October 2014, 11:13:49 »
See, that is what I was wondering if the Marians were a good example- even with their Roman overlay.  They raided for tech and IIRC slaves which was used to build up their colonies.  They traded the germanium and other resources for the things they could not raid.  With the introduction of retro-tech it makes it even more possible story-wise IMO.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #10 on: 06 October 2014, 11:59:50 »
The Marians do mirror the Vikings.  Whatever they can pillage they are also scouting for conquest.  Whatever they can't overtake with brute force they will undermine with politics and money.

One of the reasons Marian raiders are so successfull is that they have been doing it for a long time.  Instead of them being a military that has been pressed into raiding detail, the origins of the Legions is that of pirates.  The backbone of the Marian military industrial complex was also, for some time, in direct support of such actions.  Just look at the portfolio of Hadrian, Marian arms and such from prior to the Jihad.  They built material for raids, not combat.
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Col.Hengist

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #11 on: 06 October 2014, 12:58:06 »
Before Julian, sure but since him and his successors they have been taking over like romans.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #12 on: 06 October 2014, 13:19:40 »
You'll have to explain that to me.  The Marian Hegemony didn't spring into being by telling neighboring worlds they looked good in their new dress.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #13 on: 06 October 2014, 13:32:40 »
I am wondering about this considering the pre-Clan bandit kingdoms along the LC/DC border and the history of the Marian Hegemony.  To be honest the Marians seem to indicate it very well could be but part of what made the Vikings successful was the lack of any serious opposition in their home waters IIRC.  I would have to dig but I am not sure how well their longboats did against other naval warships of the time.

I'm not aware of any significant naval power during the Viking period (late 8th century through mid 11th century) where the Vikings were most active in the North Sea or Atlantic.  Later in the period, there were naval battles between different armadas from what we now call Denmark, England, and Norway.  But those were basically Vikings fighting Vikings, even if one side had conquered/settled some kingdom(s) in the British Isles.

Some Vikings from Normandy (a part of what we now call France settled by Vikings from what we now call Norway and Denmark) made their way to the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar, all the way to Sicily.  I don't think they encountered any naval powers, and there probably were none in that area so long after the fall of the Roman Empire and so deep into the Dark Ages.

There were obviously no naval powers farther west where the Norwegian Vikings settled the Isle of Man, Iceland, Greenland, and (briefly) Newfoundland.

Farther east, the Byzantine Empire and various Persian/Islamic powers had very significant navies.  The Rus (Vikings from what we now call Sweden who started some of the major river cities in what we now call Russia and Ukraine) did have run-ins with the Byzantine navy in the Black Sea area during the 10th century and generally lost to the Byzantine's superior numbers and Greek fire.  But some of the Rus, the so-called Varangians, also worked as Byzantine mercenaries and bodyguards, so it was not a simple, antagonistic relationship.  I'm unaware of any warfare (naval or otherwise) between the Rus and Persian/Islamic powers, but they certainly traded a lot as silver dinars are found in large numbers in Norse graves in Sweden.

To sum up, the Vikings were successful raiders, traders, conquerors, and settlers partly because their longships gave them access to other seashores and rivers when none of their neighbors had such a capability.  But when the Vikings did encounter a real naval power like the Byzantine Empire and tried to fight them on their terms in their waters, the Vikings lost.  If you were to mimic this in the BattleTech universe, your "space Vikings" could best their Periphery neighbors at will but couldn't match a Successor State's capabilities.

I'd also argue that the Vikings succeeded because the kingdoms and peoples around them were in such disarray while the Norse were in the process of consolidation at home and nation-building abroad.  After Charlemagne, there was no central authority covering a nation-sized territory anywhere in the British Isles, France, Germany, or Italy, but the states we now call Denmark, Norway, and Sweden all consolidated under one or two kings during this period.  (In fact, for a couple decades, Denmark, England, Norway, and southern Sweden were all united under one Danish king's rule.)  The Vikings faced little more than petty kingdoms over most of Northern and Western Europe, and it actually took Viking attacks, leadership, and/or influence to jump-start the development of the modern, large, nation-state in England, Ireland, France, and Russia.  (Although it would still be centuries until these nations would be fully recognizable in their modern forms.)  This doesn't really parallel the BattleTech universe.  With the exception of House Marik during/after the Jihad, the Successor States have never plunged to the depths of what Western/Northern Europe did during the Dark Ages and shattered into many petty states.  Each Successor State is more like a Byzantine Empire, weakened but still a centralized and powerful state in its own right after the fall of the Star League/Terran Hegemony (BattleTech's "Roman Empire").

Quote
They were also raiders- surprise, speed and violence of their assault would carry them through initially but they also quickly retreated off with their loot before heavier forces could respond.  Later they went from raiding to conquering the territory from what I recall

Vikings often started with raiding (including taking slaves), moved up to extortion, and then graduated to conquering territories and peoples and extending their trade networks.  This pattern repeated in Ireland, England, Northern France, and Russia/Ukraine.

Quote
- but politics, religion, technology and demographics had shifted.

The Vikings were change agents to these cultures, so they were responsible for a lot of the shifting.  Their leaders centralized governments and militaries, required adoption of new religions, and introduced new trade.  But the Vikings were limited in number, took native wives and husbands, and their descendants were often subsumed by the native, although changed, cultures over time.

Finally, I'd point out that the term "Viking" only applies to the subset of Scandinavian (called "Norse") culture from this time that undertook these overseas adventures.  There were lots of Norse in Scandinavia that did not go "a-Viking".  So if you're really interested in understanding the phenomenon, you have to study those societies in their totality.  It would be like trying to understand 20th-century U.S. history by studying some biker gangs or military units in the United States from that time period.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #14 on: 06 October 2014, 14:13:47 »
Clan Diamond Shark seems to be doing ok with it? :)
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #15 on: 06 October 2014, 14:26:52 »
You'll have to explain that to me.  The Marian Hegemony didn't spring into being by telling neighboring worlds they looked good in their new dress.

 Read all the history on them. They were a bandit kingdom until Julian became Caesar. He turned a lot of things around. It's all very Romanesque. Since then they have conquered some worlds but also colonised worlds. Every one raids but it seems now they're using treaties with their former conquests and I see that as a Roman thing too... Another way of taking over by helping them.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #16 on: 06 October 2014, 17:22:10 »
Very possible.  During the Middle Ages, nobles would frequently hired foreign artisans, craftsmen and engineers when they lacked the skills locally so there is no reason that a Viking society wouldn't hire others to manufacture DropShips/JumpShips as necessary.  Alternatively, with the slave trade being one of the pillars of the Norse economy, they could enslave the necessary labor force and capture/steal the needed manufacturing equipment/parts or just outright steal the DropShips/JumpShips.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #17 on: 06 October 2014, 17:36:30 »
1) Vikings weren't into the whole "hire an expert" thing, culturally. They did take numerous prisoners with perceived skills.
2) Somehow I'm not entirely sure that slave labour make for good high technology industrial workers. The only known examples run dangerously close to the "no politics" rules, but in any case were both managed by centralised intensely bureacratic states, not loosely-bound individualists.

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #18 on: 06 October 2014, 18:32:58 »
I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet:

Space Viking + BattleTech = Hendrik Grimm (Oberon Confederation). (I can't think of another BattleTech faction that more resembles Natasha Kerensky's description up thread than the Oberon Confederation.)

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #19 on: 06 October 2014, 18:51:13 »
Oh, they exist in fiction. Whether they'd exist in the absence of rule of cool is more the discussion we're having here.

If we can accept tanks on legs with 90m machine gun ranges, we can certainly cope with some "space vikings". OTOH, the "space Barbary Pirates" might be a better analogy.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #20 on: 06 October 2014, 19:07:29 »
It's just a matter of approximation of the role that Vikings played, in other words.

They won't be coming in a Knaar (and who wants to attack anyone in an antique or otherwise low-tech spacecraft anyway?).  There are no rowers, no need to lug around a shield, long hair and beards are not needed in the comfort of life support, so that's now back to taste or regulation.  And forced labor is notoriously inefficient.  One must be rewarded for hard or difficult work with something, even steady meals and a somewhat comfortable bed would count - for a short while.  And yeah, can't really explore that area too much. 

But as mentioned also, we have that approximation with the pirates of the periphery.  I imagine the deep periphery variety to perhaps come somewhat close.  But I wouldn't be expecting a culture from a time machine, it must reflect the age in which it resides.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #21 on: 06 October 2014, 19:37:10 »
Funny. I was going to say Space Viking style raiding is the very core concept of BattleTech. It's what even the Great Houses have been doing ever since the Succession Wars. There wasn't much actual conquest going on, just smash & grab raids for lostech or even water.

This guy nailed it.

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #22 on: 06 October 2014, 21:14:13 »
If there are "Space Vikings"....


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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #23 on: 06 October 2014, 21:19:38 »
...Are their color schemes still purple with gold trim?  ;D 

With their luck when they finally win one, it's during The Blackout.  Hi ho! (edit: But the Lions are still luckless in the current timeline, I would imagine)
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #24 on: 06 October 2014, 21:31:57 »
...Are their color schemes still purple with gold trim?  ;D 


That certainly increases the Marian Hegemony's involvement, quiaff?  :D
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #25 on: 06 October 2014, 22:53:59 »
That certainly increases the Marian Hegemony's involvement, quiaff?  :D

Aff.  I forgot about their colors.  They lay claim to a much older purple and gold tradition than the Vikings of Minnesota  ;D

And their space pirating scheme was obviously much better than most, showing that a slightly more egalitarian system brings out the best in a band of trained and disciplined raiders.

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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #26 on: 06 October 2014, 23:17:29 »
Pirates is definitely a closer analogy than Vikings for this purpose. Pirates relied on "off-screen" technologically advanced cultures to produce their ships and weapons (try casting a 30lb'er cannon without the foundry 'achievement' ;) ), and were reliant on capturing replacement components (including shot and powder). They also then needed "fence" bases tied into mainstream commercial channels to dispose of their booty.

(Given the strange things flames do in zero-gee, I can't help but picture someone in the bridge of a pirate Overlord, with slow matches burning in his hair ...)
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #27 on: 07 October 2014, 00:45:34 »
Some good points were raised . . . and as I said the Bandit Kingdoms and Marians seem to be the idea.  They raided to build themselves up, getting what they could not build or produce for themselves.  IIRC they did use Roman model slavery, so the raids also brought back forced colonists to improve their own worlds along with talent hunts.

While I am not saying they can produce jumpships there are folks in the periphery who can, they last a long time and before the Clan invasion they were inviolate.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #28 on: 07 October 2014, 12:13:02 »
I could see a old Star League Colony with several old elderly jumpships and the capacity to build stripped down Leopard Dropships being a good analogue to Space Vikings. The jumpships are each owned by various planetary kings who lease them to Dropship owners who use them to trade or raid or even both at the same time for a cut of the goods. Mechs are old Star League era designs which cannot be replaced easily but the MechWarrior's desire to die in battle. Its all explanation and mindset.
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Re: Are Space Vikings viable in the setting?
« Reply #29 on: 07 October 2014, 17:44:47 »
The ability to build a JumpShip will get you every time. The Jarnfolk can't build JumpShips. About the only non-national yard I can think of was Star's End.

As noted above, the more normal operation of Periphery nations (all of them. Again, I can't think of any yards) is closer to pirates or non-technologically advanced nations. Steal or import that which you can not build.

Vikings are closer to a non-technologically advanced nation state, but could build the technology they needed for their raiding. In Battletech before 3070 that means a Great House, Com Star, the Clans, or Star's End.

 

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